Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Morwen Lagann on 27 Mar 2011, 17:20
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Obligatory "holy crap, Morwen's starting a discussion thread for once" comment here.
Right. Now that that's out of the way: something that's been on my mind for a while, ever since reading TBL, and again with the Future Vision trailer (and some of the subsequent discussion in the thread about it), is the prevalence of capsuleers carrying weapons on them wherever they go.
We're all familiar with the routine - someone walks into the Skyhook or the Last Gate or the Broken Piano and hands over a sidearm or a knife to the guards/bouncers/drones at the front door, goes about their business, and then picks them up when they leave.
But TBL, as well as the description of the High-Tech Small Arms (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/High-Tech_Small_Arms) item ingame, seem to give the impression that this shouldn't be the case. Or, at least, makes it curious why, if people would need to be carrying these HTSAs in order to carry them outside of private hangars and corporate facilities and the like without causing issues with security systems, that they would need to turn them over when visiting a bar.
Just seems a little odd to me, to have to turn over a gun that under the (implied) majority of circumstances, can't shoot anyway, to get into a bar or restaurant. Why bring something you can't use, if you'd have to turn it over anyway? On the other hand, if you can't use it even if you bring it, why turn it over?
Also, on top of that, why are we the ones carrying weapons in the first place? Don't we have security staff to handle that for us?
I dunno. It just doesn't make that much sense to me. Thoughts? How do you approach the situation?
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The fiction/content problem of EVE about obscure and remotely accessible items of PF means that other 50% of players won't know about this "rule".
But yeah, this is basically why Seriphyn is normally never armed on station; capsuleer sections are "secure", or something
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Miz used to carry a sidearm when she went to places where she might be her own last line of defense. While places like TLG and such ensures the safety of those entering (from others than Veto) you're not safe on the way to or from the bar as far as I know.
However, she's kind of unique in that respect among my characters. None of the others carry weapons of any kind anywhere. If going to any places that may be risky, they'll bring a pack of guards to ensure safety or rely on the time-honored tradition of fucking off at high speeds should the defecation hit the oscillation.
I don't really care much about what TBL and the latest trailer shows. We have established a gun-culture in New Eden's RP community and I doubt it'll change much.
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I tend to assume that our characters, with net worths normally in the millions of ISK (or higher) and thousands of employees (crew, etc.), wouldn't normally need to carry any weaponry. I generally play it as though I have at least a small security detail of bodyguards when in public areas.
That's not to say that a capsuleer always has them present (e.g. when resting in one's personal quarters), but it makes sense to me this way.
Mizhara's statement regarding a gun culture strikes me as generally correct, but I've grown up in a twice-over gun culture (high-crime urban area in Texas) and I've still never fired a gun in my life. So not all capsuleers need to do things the same way. :)
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Edit: Let me reword this a little bit.
I was stationed in Korea at the height of the "beef riots" in 2008-2009. At one point we had demonstrators outside our base's entrance, and the base CO called out the auxiliary security force. The protestors moved well away from the gate when the first sentries hit the perimeter towers armed with M16s. I don't pretend to be an expert in human psychology, but seeing men and women wearing flak vests, web gear, toting weapons, and in uniform most likely had an impact.
I prefer to think in this context with Baxter carrying a sidearm. If he's walking down the corridor on a station - even in secure areas - people are a little less likely to do something stupid in his presence. The reality of this happening? Probably close to zero. But on the off chance that it does happen, he's ready.
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See, I think of our characters less like the perimeter sentries (or the thugs walking around my meatspace neighborhood) and more like Erik Prince or Warren Buffet. Sure, they might be carrying, but if they do, it's more out of affectation than actual use.
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For me the answer is fairly simply. Nikita's a street kid, she carries guns less for protection and more out of force of habit. She's not used to being as well protected as she is, and doesn't want to feel helpless. So she arms herself to the teeth, even though most of the time she's got enough guards to populate a moderately sized city.
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I had Ember carry a gun to still give her a connection to her military career. That and because she generally though that if you want something done its best to do it yourself and that includes personal protection. Sure she might have had a guard or two in most places, but she wanted to be prepared herself just in case.
The new character I'm working on in my head(yeah with all the pretties at fanfest I started a trial with the intent of coming back in game so like I said before no one escapes the EVE) probably wont be carrying a sidearm though I may still give him a knife or something, but its all undecided at this point depending on how his background turns out when I'm done with it.
IRL I carry a gun pretty much everywhere I go except those places that I can't, and then it stays in the car. I'm not sure why really. I live in an area with a very low rate of violent or gun related crimes, but I always want to be prepared, and I guess I would rather have it and not need it as need it and not have it.
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The question I'd be asking is whether the level of security and screening people have is effective enough to root out hostile weapons. Sure, they might find a pistol, but what about nano plagues or poison needles, or the infamous knife-shoe boot?! :D
In an RP environment, I can see the implementation of an all-encompassing security option to prevent someone from causing activity that may be outside the bounds of the setting.
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Kaleigh, that's an interesting point. How well does your executive protection detail handle advance work? What sort of screen do they maintain?
/me toddles off, musing.
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For me the answer is fairly simply. Nikita's a street kid, she carries guns less for protection and more out of force of habit. She's not used to being as well protected as she is, and doesn't want to feel helpless. So she arms herself to the teeth, even though most of the time she's got enough guards to populate a moderately sized city.
More or less the same logic I use for my character. He just carries around a pistol and knife, but it's the same general logic of 'well better to have it and not need it' already mentioned. No matter how many guards you have with heavy weapons, it's been shown even in real history that sometimes it pays to have personal protection that doesn't rely on other people.
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The desire to be armed at all times may be in some cases a side effect of both the power-maddening effects of the capsule and the fact that pretty much every ship is armed in some way or another, such that some capsuleers feel naked without a way to visit death upon others in their easy reach.
That said, Ze'ev-c is a doctor, not a soldier, and he only carries when absolutely necessary to make a point or when he's sure shit is going to go down, both situations he tries to avoid at all costs.
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Inara has limited training with firearms, and what effectively amounts to just more than 'exercise' training with a blade (running through stances/movements for physical health). She can use both, but there is a reason she has bought some of the best security Curse can provide.
Realistically, there's no foolproof security system. It's simply not possible to enforce. "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." is a great way of explaining it. There's always someone that's one step ahead of the game; modern example is ceramic weaponry that's difficult to detect.
IRL I carry a gun pretty much everywhere I go except those places that I can't, and then it stays in the car. I'm not sure why really. I live in an area with a very low rate of violent or gun related crimes, but I always want to be prepared, and I guess I would rather have it and not need it as need it and not have it.
I leave mine in my vehicle (1) and room (3), but agree wholeheartedly. Safe > Sorry
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Shin habitually carries a small needle gun with her, ever since Graelyn had her kidnapped. She also makes frequent back-ups of her clone, and employs both software and meatspace security agents to handle her personal security. Considering her history of nanotechnological and biotechnical research, they're likely both well-equipped and imaginative about the way they work.
In any case, it's a plenty big universe. While I imagine it's difficult to wander around the CAS station in Cistuvaert while openly carrying, not every station would be this strictly controlled.
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Also, on top of that, why are we the ones carrying weapons in the first place? Don't we have security staff to handle that for us?
Simon has a security detail. It's basically a cranky Jin-Mei woman with a machete and a gun, plus some drones with deployable shield fins and non-lethal tasers. He still carries a combat knife though, for the best of reasons: it's fancy bling! He can't fight with a knife at all, but it's a high-tech, basically useless, limited run done by Duvolle to prove the concept. It's expensive as all get out, looks cool and sends a message to people familiar with Duvolle Labs.
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To clarify in case it wasn't clear in the OP: I'm not complaining about the large number of people who do this - I just find it an odd behavior given what has been established in the PF about the security of stations, and am wondering what the rationales and reasons are behind characters doing it - is it just a symbolic gesture or force of habit? Or are some characters that genuinely concerned that they'll carry it even if it's going to be more or less unusable while they're out and about?
In any case, it's a plenty big universe. While I imagine it's difficult to wander around the CAS station in Cistuvaert while openly carrying, not every station would be this strictly controlled.
This is certainly true, but I'd expect that the vast majority of highsec stations, as well as a fair portion of lowsec stations (particularly ones owned by military and R&D corporations) would be on the stricter end of the spectrum, while stations belonging to "outlaw factions" (or "alternative Empires" as Inara loves to call them) in NPC nullsec would be on the more lax end. Stations owned by player entities I'd expect to fall anywhere in between, and would change depending on who was in charge at any given moment.
In Morwen-c's particular case, she's had both formal training with both firearms and knives in the Navy Academy after she joined, and she had informal training on the use of firearms with her father (who serves/served in the Navy) while growing up. Daddy didn't want to have to get the shotgun off the mantle when the boys came knocking, he wanted his little girl to be able to handle the job herself. Well, okay, I'm kidding on that last part, of course, but you get the idea. ;)
So, she knows how to use either of them, but she generally doesn't carry. Why? Because she sees it as superfluous and a waste of time and effort for the majority of places she visits. The stationside bars and other establishments she frequents are reasonably well secured, and with the exception of the Last Gate, would confiscate whatever she was carrying anyway. (Veto employees are allowed to carry corporate-issued firearms in the Gate; these models are keyed specifically to one user and will not fire in the hands of anyone but their owner.)
As for planetside venues like the Basilica or Mercy's Keep, it's a similar issue: they're either well-secured and/or whatever she had on her would be confiscated on entry, with the additional caveat that as they are planetside, she's already at higher risk for an "accident" than she would be on a station, so the idea is to draw less attention to herself and not give anyone an excuse to give her a second glance.
That's not to say that there are zero situations where she would ever walk around armed, though. She'd never step off of one of her ships and out of her hangar in Curse unarmed, for example. I could maybe see her carrying a knife around for decorative purposes as well, but it's not something that'd be particularly common or frequent.
Realistically, there's no foolproof security system. It's simply not possible to enforce. "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." is a great way of explaining it. There's always someone that's one step ahead of the game; modern example is ceramic weaponry that's difficult to detect.
Agreed, but in a universe where the cops have magical voodoo that prevents you from using a wormhole, anything can happen. >.>
... infamous knife-shoe boot?! :D
... Klebb? Someone likes their Bond movies. :P
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People carry guns because they are afraid.
Simple as that.
Someone who has Faith, needs no guns.
Someone carrying a two-handed bludgeoning weapon with spikes for religious reasons, needs no guns either.
That's why Freedom Fighters and Slavers do not usually share space :D
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Knives fit under robe sleeves much better.
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Morwen, a couple of thoughts on this, typed annoyingly on my phone and therefore underdeveloped.
It's hard to determine a rational response to risk without information about the nature and likelihood of the risk. I have assumed -- for a number of reasons including the lack of reports of ordinary station murders in the news and a dev comment about it not being on to assassinate some important capsuleer with a spoon -- that the default level of risk on a station is remarkably low.
That said, Mata tends to holoproject to places that might be risky, and she's more careful of her data security than her physical security, at least when she's wearing a clone. There are levels of trust.
I'm not really a fan of the idea of combat in stations, but if that's the way things go it'll at least give some objective feedback about the level of risk involved.
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See, I think of our characters less like the perimeter sentries (or the thugs walking around my meatspace neighborhood) and more like Erik Prince or Warren Buffet. Sure, they might be carrying, but if they do, it's more out of affectation than actual use.
This is approximately how I think of the issue too.
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Verin's whole approach is that you're much more dangerous if nobody knows you're dangerous.
So, he doesn't carry guns. Not that he can't use them, and well, but first and foremost he's a trained killer with his own body, and not even the best security systems in the world can detect that. Why draw attention to yourself with a sidearm or implanted cybernetic or nanite weaponry? or even with augmented muscles or cybernetic limbs?
He'll carry a sidearm only in situations where NOT carrying one would draw more attention. Otherwise, he's unarmed and dangerous.
Of course, it helps that he's unlikely ever to need to use his skills. But if somebody ever walked into the room and aimed a gun at him, he'd still stand a chance.
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People can of course play it any way they like, but I find it highly unlikely that capsuleers in charge of thousands of people and massive tools of war, with assets more than 99.9% of the galaxy can obtain would have to resort to personal armaments for protection.
It might make for less-exciting RP, but I don't imagine most capsuleers coming anywhere near any physical violence. It might be more exciting to 'lead from the front' in some cases, but I imagine if I were immortal whenever in my pod, I'd be that much extra careful the one time I was vulnerable to actual death, outside of the pod. IE my personal space would be a fort-knox of bodyguards, security details, and buffers between me and anyone else.
Capsuleer-only areas on stations might lend some interesting assassination opportunities, but I have to feel like those boundaries would often be respected. Once capsuleers start offing each other's clones for permanent death, all the gloves would come off.
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Agreed, but in a universe where the cops have magical voodoo that prevents you from using a wormhole, anything can happen. >.>
The same universe that has NPC capsuleers raiding hisec and hacking the magical voodoo police control systems over capsuleers.
As you said, anything can happen as tech on both sides of the fence are being improved.
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None of my characters carry personal weapons.
Katla does have artificial muscle grafts, but that's to prevent muscle atrophy in low-gravity environments.
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My reasoning is thus:
1). Hisec and lowsec stati don't just extend to space. It also described and denotes the environment of the planetary colonies, station environments, likelihood of crimes to be committed, lack of police support, activity of local militias, etc. All these things could add up to stations or colonies without as strong of security protocols, or more lenience in terms of weapons being carried by visitors and locals.
2). While high-tech small arms exist and can be "turned off" by security in stations, this gives a unique advantage to projectile small arms. Senn carries a cheap, rugged, effective projectile pistol. Nowhere near as streamlined and technologically advanced as a laser pistol, coilgun, or what have you, but it gets the job done in the aforementioned lowsec environs.
3). He is by title a security officer, and unofficially considers it part of his duties to guard the senior staff of his corporation while abroad. While I could just insist that Senn can have a squad of PMCs with him at all times, its bulky, its irritating for RP, and it implies he's megarich. Which he ain't.
4). When you're part of the criminal element, you make a lot of enemies, and you walk through a lot of bad neighborhoods in stations. You can't just stay in your pod forever, eventually you have to be present in a meeting or some such. To be honest, I can't think why anyone in a similar situation would step onto the dock without some kind of sidearm.
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4). When you're part of the criminal element, you make a lot of enemies, and you walk through a lot of bad neighborhoods in stations. You can't just stay in your pod forever, eventually you have to be present in a meeting or some such. To be honest, I can't think why anyone in a similar situation would step onto the dock without some kind of sidearm.
I could see a sufficiently paranoid podder refusing to leave his capsule of immortality, instead sending some sort of emmisary to meetings, perhaps some guy in formal robes carrying a holoprojector through which the capsuleer could be present and speak. Depending on your views regarding the permanence of death outside the pod, it simply seems like a risk not worth taking.
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4). When you're part of the criminal element, you make a lot of enemies, and you walk through a lot of bad neighborhoods in stations. You can't just stay in your pod forever, eventually you have to be present in a meeting or some such. To be honest, I can't think why anyone in a similar situation would step onto the dock without some kind of sidearm.
I could see a sufficiently paranoid podder refusing to leave his capsule of immortality, instead sending some sort of emmisary to meetings, perhaps some guy in formal robes carrying a holoprojector through which the capsuleer could be present and speak. Depending on your views regarding the permanence of death outside the pod, it simply seems like a risk not worth taking.
That would make for an interesting RP character if nothing else
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What else are you gonna execute prisoners with? Guess you could use a big pointy stick or a Barry Manilow album.
Even the absurdly rich are vulnerable if they choose to hang out in seedy dives.
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Take a look at the legality lists and what is missing from the Gallente Federation one. I'm sure that there will be all sorts of reasoning behind having people disarmed, the least of which is the non-combat nature of Incarna. But I expect at least a degree of "when you pry it from my cold dead hands" from at least a small section of a community typically permitted to wield weapons of mass destruction without a whimper of discontent from the authorities (and that's not even getting up to the doomsday device scale).
[EDIT: Internets killed my picture]
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So here's a question: if Incarna implements some sort of restriction on weaponry / combat, will people try to RP past it?
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4). When you're part of the criminal element, you make a lot of enemies, and you walk through a lot of bad neighborhoods in stations. You can't just stay in your pod forever, eventually you have to be present in a meeting or some such. To be honest, I can't think why anyone in a similar situation would step onto the dock without some kind of sidearm.
I could see a sufficiently paranoid podder refusing to leave his capsule of immortality, instead sending some sort of emmisary to meetings, perhaps some guy in formal robes carrying a holoprojector through which the capsuleer could be present and speak. Depending on your views regarding the permanence of death outside the pod, it simply seems like a risk not worth taking.
[derail] Does your pod come with an extra set of jacks for romantic interludes, or is such a fluid exchange beneath you? I suppose any act could be done holo-style, if there are sensors that deliver some sort of feedback... [/derail]
As for guns, why would any capsuleer risk immortality in the presence of a weapon that could take it from them? I like to imagine that in a location with sufficient infrastructure, like a station, you would have live wireless uplink continually backing up your brain so that at most you would lose a few memories (training) if killed out of pod.
Otherwise I think you have to seriously come up with a reason for an immortal to 'descend' to mortality. Though I hear some New Eden bars have amazing martinis... :P
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Hmm, some folks may find the chronicle "Jita 4-4 (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=06-09-10)" instructive here. :)
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Thanks, I'd forgotten what a good read that one is, along with the vitally important C3 concept. So in other words, there is no saving your present mind (nix my wi-fi idea), so just take along a few important skills/memories when out of pod and keep a really good backup brain?
I think they needed something like this (C3 and the backed-up clone) to make Dust work. I don't know how else you'd integrate a reviving FPS character (they never die, right?) into the EVE universe.
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Their Armor may have the required equipment to Flash and Transmit their brains just before death. Add to this the fact that becasue it's required to have comm systems active to preform this that Comms will never be jamemd on the field. No one wants to die if it can be avoided, and no one wants to be the dumb bugger that ordered a jammer put into place and be the only one darwin selects to remove from the gene pool.
But we won't know aything for certian till we get closer to release.
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4). When you're part of the criminal element, you make a lot of enemies, and you walk through a lot of bad neighborhoods in stations. You can't just stay in your pod forever, eventually you have to be present in a meeting or some such. To be honest, I can't think why anyone in a similar situation would step onto the dock without some kind of sidearm.
I could see a sufficiently paranoid podder refusing to leave his capsule of immortality, instead sending some sort of emmisary to meetings, perhaps some guy in formal robes carrying a holoprojector through which the capsuleer could be present and speak. Depending on your views regarding the permanence of death outside the pod, it simply seems like a risk not worth taking.
Okay, correction. When you're as busy as Senn, you have to leave your pod eventually. >>
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Yes, as Bureeiku noted in his derail. :twisted: