Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Ember Vykos on 20 Mar 2011, 11:45
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Given the use of slaves I always pictured a holdership as operating like a plantation from the pre Civil War south here in the states, but after looking at the Scriptures it makes me think they operate more like a feudal system of serfs and such with the slaves probably being the lowest on the totem pole. So I'm curious as to how those of you that RP as holders actually run yours.
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I have toyed with writing a more detailed description of one form of the Amarrian feudal system based on encomienda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda) and haciendas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacienda), presuming a similar system might have prevailed in those regions heavily populated with Minmatar (the modern Republic before the Rebellion).
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Various kind of slaves in the Empire.
Labor slaves, working in masse in industries, farms, ships, whatever. The most subject slaves to vitoc treatement.
Personnal slaves, acting like servants mostly.
Some slaves with time can also get at respectful job positions (administration, concellors, whatever).
Some other are maybe used as canon fodder on the battlefield too.
I think you can find a lot of different situations, in which case the relationship between the Holder and his servants will change.
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I understand the different types of slaves, but I was looking for more of how those that have planet side estates actually view them.
Ken the hacienda/encomienda idea looks really neat. I'll have to read on those a bit.
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Various kind of slaves in the Empire.
Labor slaves, working in masse in industries, farms, ships, whatever. The most subject slaves to vitoc treatement.
This is incorrect. (ref.: Vitoc (Chronicle) http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoc_%28Chronicle%29 )
Although the more conventional ways of subduing slaves with force (actual or threat of) are still widely used in other forced labor areas, the Vitoc method has proven itself admirably for the fleet.
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Unfortunately, we don't know exactly being a "holder" entails. Hold slaves? Perhaps; it would certainly seem to be the most obvious answer, but I doubt the only one. What about territory? A Holder cannot exactly house slaves or run a business of any kind without property to operate on. What about holding arms? This would certainly be an effective means of preventing a "commoner uprising".
Anyhow, a discussion for another time. I frankly think the Encomienda comparison is a very good one.
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Unfortunately, we don't know exactly being a "holder" entails. Hold slaves? Perhaps; it would certainly seem to be the most obvious answer, but I doubt the only one. What about territory? A Holder cannot exactly house slaves or run a business of any kind without property to operate on. What about holding arms? This would certainly be an effective means of preventing a "commoner uprising".
That's actually close to what I was hoping for. Do you view it as just a rather large house with a separate one for your slaves or as more of a small self contained town or village with a place for slaves and loyal soldiers/guards but also places for a butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.?
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Empire slavery has always seemed to me as being lord/serf style where the lord has a bit more totalitarian authority. The ability to trade slaves is a bit more power than the typical lord/serf relationship, however I think the dynamic would be similar after this many generations. The lord of the house/land/etc... has to maintain control of the serf population via various means; the choice method seems to be (this is opinion) via religious indoctrination, with a side of power and occasional fear mongering.
As for estates that I've ran, it's very much a self-contained community/town/city. Slaves are given their orders by foremen who are slaves themselves that have earned a certain status from service/loyalty. Doctors have been bought, dedicated to the treatment of their 'brothers in bonds', everything from deskwork organizing a small 'department' to cleaning toilets to security is covered by the slave population. Outside access is restricted without clearance, and typically painted as the surrounding area would likely try to take them away from their families if they aren't careful (causing a dependence on the estate for fear of losing their loved ones).
I think the best way to describe the method I use would be to loosely refer to it as a feudal commune; a single 'ruler' or ruling family that looks out for the interests of the whole commune as a singular entity, but the ruler/ruling family still answer to another [distant] authority as well as being the 'face' for interacting with the other entities (whether they be other communes, individuals, corporations, etc..). Obviously, there are benefits to being the ruler/ruling family, and there are benefits/consequences within the commune to 'following the rules'/'being bad' (highly over-simplified, but the idea is the same).
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Silas doesn't concern herself with how the very bottom rungs of her social world operate, there's an army of subordinates to handle that kind of thing. Peasants/servants/slaves in particular are so low on the social respect and concern meter for her that it's borderline insulting / waste of valuable time to even bother to think about it.... hence her usual derision on groups like SPCS and the other amarrians 'whining' about slavery issues or concerns.
I would imagine Imperial/Kingdom holders of a certain amount of wealth running vast swaths of property on several planets would be quite removed from a lot of administrative/day to day operational issues, and most likely not even be aware of a lot of the nitty-gritty.
For example I'm sure the King of France in the 1600's didn't have the foggiest idea about the details of how his 'house' was run, as far as servants / peasants were concerned. There were staff trained for those sorts of things, to manage and keep things running smoothly, and the top Royalty generally tended to concern themselves with big policy issues. Servants or how the household was run would only be an issue when someone screwed up.
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I understand the different types of slaves, but I was looking for more of how those that have planet side estates actually view them.
Ken the hacienda/encomienda idea looks really neat. I'll have to read on those a bit.
Personally I preferr an approach that is inspired by the traditional depiction of roman slaves that were 'integrated' into the family household in regards to slaves that have direct face to face contact with my character.
Regarding planetbound slaves you might want to give the second eve novel a read (the burning life).
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Various kind of slaves in the Empire.
Labor slaves, working in masse in industries, farms, ships, whatever. The most subject slaves to vitoc treatement.
This is incorrect. (ref.: Vitoc (Chronicle) http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoc_%28Chronicle%29 )
Although the more conventional ways of subduing slaves with force (actual or threat of) are still widely used in other forced labor areas, the Vitoc method has proven itself admirably for the fleet.
This was unprecise more than incorrect, but whatever.
My point was to say you can imagine infinite kinds of slave/master relationships, depending on the job the slaves are doing, their position in the house, etc. I find it quite weird to want to generalize everything and put them into one big labelled box.
Though the examples quoted above like encomiendas are interesting ofc.
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Farel is correct, it really comes down to how you want to play it and what would be more interesting for you. There's such a wide variety it's generally up to personal preference.
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Farel is correct, it really comes down to how you want to play it and what would be more interesting for you. There's such a wide variety it's generally up to personal preference.
True. I was more curious about what you guys did or how you played em out in your heads. Thankd for all the input guys. :D
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Various kind of slaves in the Empire.
Labor slaves, working in masse in industries, farms, ships, whatever. The most subject slaves to vitoc treatement.
This is incorrect. (ref.: Vitoc (Chronicle) http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoc_%28Chronicle%29 )
Although the more conventional ways of subduing slaves with force (actual or threat of) are still widely used in other forced labor areas, the Vitoc method has proven itself admirably for the fleet.
This was unprecise more than incorrect, but whatever.
My point was to say you can imagine infinite kinds of slave/master relationships, depending on the job the slaves are doing, their position in the house, etc. I find it quite weird to want to generalize everything and put them into one big labelled box.
Though the examples quoted above like encomiendas are interesting ofc.
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Well, whatever way you turn it it's still incorrect according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary ( ref.: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incorrect ).
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Anyways, I'm glad we could answer your question Ember :) imo it's important to keep in mind that there are most likely billions of slave owners in the empire (and elsewhere too!), thus its possible to run into pretty much every kind of owner/slave relationship we know of irl.
And most likely many, many more.
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Unfortunately, we don't know exactly being a "holder" entails. Hold slaves? Perhaps; it would certainly seem to be the most obvious answer, but I doubt the only one. What about territory? A Holder cannot exactly house slaves or run a business of any kind without property to operate on. What about holding arms? This would certainly be an effective means of preventing a "commoner uprising".
That's actually close to what I was hoping for. Do you view it as just a rather large house with a separate one for your slaves or as more of a small self contained town or village with a place for slaves and loyal soldiers/guards but also places for a butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.?
I believe that the smallest "holdings" we've seen in PF is a minor lord who held the equivalent of a POS (albeit locked behind accel gates in a deadspace area, not at a moon). This is interesting because it suggests that Holdership is not land-bound (a significant alteration, when you think about it) but can include space installations as well.
With that said... what a Holdership would look like might vary increidbly widely between different regions, systems, and even planets. A Holder's territories in the Kador families' traditional areas - known for displaying "the strong, majestic Empire of old" - might be more seperate, insular, and lofty to demonstrate the difference between the lordly Holders and mere commoners. Here we might see more fortress or palace-esque holdings, with commoners having to enter this world (and have it made quite clear to them they are in the domain of someone far superior to them). A holding in the Tash-Murkon region, on the other hand, might be optimized far more for effiency, with commoners living intermixed with the lower-tier Holders so as to make everything run more smoothly.
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As far as I can tell a Holder is a feudal lord who holds territory in the name of the empire, from an estate to a collection of systems. That the title is used for all but the top few rungs on a long ladder seems to be the source of confusion. Lord and feudal lord appear in Myth of a Salesman and I don't think it's a stretch to say that it refers to Holders when compared to other PF, especially considering that it was written in 2002. A governor (note the lack of capital) is counted among a group of Holders in The Artifice Maker. Finally the heirs themselves are said to be a caste of Holders and are associated with holding large domains.
to the common Amarrian a Holder symbolized the grandeur of the Amarr Empire and to attack one was to attack the Empire itself.
At that time numerous minor Holders vied for power, each with his own ideas on how to run things. This resulted in a complex tapestry of rules and regulations regarding for instance education, travel permits and freedom of employment. With time this resulted in great economical diversity between the stations in the area, some prospered while others stagnated. When the emperor re-organized the administration in the sector a sole Holder was chosen to govern it as a whole, with governors on each station working under him.
The Amarr Heirs are the heads of the five royal families, the highest caste of the Holders apart from the Emperor family itself. Even if the emperor is the head of state his power outside his immediate vicinity is limited. The entrenched bureaucracy and the semi-feudal governing system means that all over the empire there are local lords that enjoy almost complete autonomy most of time. The Heirs are the most powerful of these lords. Each heir family has vast domains spanning dozens of solar systems.
That's not to say there isn't flexibility here. It's very reasonable to assume that a Holder may have domain over something other than or in addition to territory, such as a service or industry. It's a big empire. In reference to slavery I don't believe it has any real relation to Holders other than most Holders having slaves amongst those they govern. Slaves are traded and bred openly in the empire and during this ownership likely passes through many people who are not Holders. It is possible they remain under the nominal ownership of a Holder unless released from the Empire, though at that point it becomes mere semantics.