Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Inara Subaka on 13 Mar 2011, 22:48
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Now, this isn't going to be a bash thread about how horribly corrupt CONCORD is, and the reasons they need to be dismantled... We all already know that information.
There seems to be two ends of the spectrum that people congregate towards; at one end, CONCORD is the ultimate sense of physical power in the cluster and their word is law without any chances of retaliation. At the other end, CONCORD is a bunch of yellow-bellies with too much time sitting at a desk trying to puppeteer capsuleers and failing at it.
Most tend towards one extreme or the other, with some reasonable perspectives mixed in. Stitcher brought up a rather interesting topic on IGS about CONCORD/DED having continuous and unrestricted access to our pod controls, allowing them to force our ships to self-destruct; making them the 'bigger fish' when compared to Capsuleers. But in a fight against entities they don't have a 'backdoor' hack against, they're weak and unable to directly do anything.
The problem with that is... the DED is very capable, and has rather extensive resources; they're constantly making moves on all of the non-CONCORD alligned factions in nulsec, so they have to have resources to spare (or they are actually incompetent and that goes back to what this topic is not about). And when facing Capsuleers, they are only 'all-powerful' when working within the bounds of hisec because that's where the Jovians told them they could be all-powerful; in nulsec *laughs* they are one of the easier factions to do missions against.
That's right, CONCORD is constantly trying to 'invade' or disrupt nulsec NPC operations. And those NPC entities hire Capsuleers to shoot at the DED to drive them off, because Capsuleer ships are (typically) more suited to the task than non-capsuleer ships.
The problem I face when looking at the Incursion/Sansha/CONCORD situation is this: They have the resources to force several very powerful non-CONCORD factions (including the Sansha) to hire Capsuleers to drive them out of their space (which they can do easily because the Jovians haven't allowed them access to the Capsuleer Pod Networks out there), yet they can't rally/recall a sizable enough force to throw at invading Nation forces..? And, they claim to need the Capsuleer forces to assist them in driving the Nation Incursions away, but they refuse to allow non-CONCORD aligned entities to assist them.
Even if it was only for hisec defense, restricting the Nation to lowsec/nullsec, at least it would make a modicum of sense. Instead we have "well, there they are, here's some ISK to go kill them" instead of "We'll handle these, you go deal with the ones in the fringes" that seems to be firing on more logic cylinders. Hell, the hisec Incursions are notably weaker, where the larger Capsuleer presence is seen, and within CONCORD's all high and mighty area of retribution.
No, they won't be able to jack with the Nation self-destruct systems. But they don't need to, they're still one of the most resource heavy, and best fighting forces in the cluster (if for no other reason than more bodies/ships/resources to throw at a problem).
Those that see them as the ultimate sense of power... well, they only have that authority in 'their space' because the power was given to them. On the flip side, they aren't all desk-sitters without the ability to fight either, they are a very capable fighting force.. so why aren't they using it?
And, why do people usually take one view or the other? Obviously some don't, and some change their tune depending on how it affects their point in a discussion.
Teh frell?
Note: This could probably be broken into two separate topics of discussion: 1) Capsuleer perspective vs the realities of CONCORD; 2) Why isn't CONCORD using their resources effectively against the current situation instead of attacking in small groups in nulsec?
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The way I see it, CONCORD theoretically has the power to effectively wipe out whoever they like, at least within the confines of high security space. They wouldn't, of course, because their organizational philosophy puts them firmly in the lawful spectrum as defenders of humanity/the status quo. But they could.
The reason they can't just do it to Sansha's Nation when they come knocking can be explained a couple ways. One, bureaucratic inertia. They've been doing this for over a hundred years, and they operate on a wider area than all of the empires. That's plenty of time and space for regulatory, political, and informational flotsam to clog up their operations.
Two, and I think this is the more interesting part, the fallout from the Elder attack. Something of a mindset of invulnerability probably infested CONCORD's organizational thinking as the years passed and their influence grew. The Elder fleet disproved that handily. I think they're still terrified that something like that might happen again; a not unreasonable belief in light of the fact that Nation hit Yulai. So I would suggest that they are reserving a great deal of strength to deal with such threats. The instinct for self-preservation, after all, is often noted as a feature of bureaucracies, and entrenches itself as they grow and time goes by.
That doesn't mean they're not doing anything as regards Nation, however. I think the key is this bit:
Hell, the hisec Incursions are notably weaker, where the larger Capsuleer presence is seen, and within CONCORD's all high and mighty area of retribution.
I don't think it's implausible that the incursions in highsec are weaker precisely because CONCORD is fighting back, at least to an extent consistent with the limitations outlined above.
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Z here touched upon the subject of the Elder Invasion.
Not any of the events of the TEA have had any repercussions to any of the invading parties.
No war reparations, no limits in trading, no restricted naval presence, nothing.
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The beauty of CONCORD is that it operates through the implicit use of force, not through overt demonstrations of military might and prowess. To use a practical comparison, they're like a U.S. carrier battle group showing up in a troubled part of the world: when they arrive, or even when there's a threat of their arrival, heads turn. And as someone on active military service I really do have to admire their efficiency when it comes to this.
CONCORD clearly has the muscle and resources to dislodge the Nation if they wanted to. If you don't believe me just look at the Code Area Inquiry and the ISHAEKA reports, which speak volumes as to highly-specialized capabilities and what they're capable of when someone lights a fire under them. Another example is the Elder attack. They crammed how many ships into that station to provide the power to reboot the computers?? There's no way an Empire military could rally up that many ships on such short notice.
And then when they told the Empires "oh no you don't: this fighting ends now" (not in those precise words but I'm sure you get my drift) as soon as the computers were back on in Yulai, the Empires listened. The fighting stopped, abruptly, because for lack of a better phrase God had spoken. Only CONCORD had the power to stop the fighting by flipping off the stargates, and in the end that's precisely what brought the Empires to heel. It was an "uh-oh" moment for them: be crippled and vulnerable to CONCORD fleets, or obey and see what comes next?
After all that why disrupt intergalactic commerce with sanctions and retaliations, Lallara, when you can let the Empires have their safety valves (the militia wars)? CONCORD gets back to being the "bad boy on the block," and the Empires go back to their fighting. CONCORD remains in charge precisely by being the implicit force that prevents things from getting out-of-line and escalating any more than this, while the Empires weaken themselves with more fighting.
All-in-all everyone wins. Commerce continues (CONCORD of course takes a cut through taxes), the politicians can be elected on militaristic platforms, the people are safe and secure (for the most part) and can go about their daily lives, the militaries are confined to their systems, and the capsuleers get to go fight each other in an authorized fashion.
And after going through all this, why commit resources to fighting Nation when they could get someone else to do the fighting for them? Oh sure, a CONCORD task force on the battlefield would be a Grade-A morale booster, but realistically we were handling things (almost) fine on our own. Note the use of "almost": there were definitely some failures in the pre-war runup (but honestly I think that was more due to CCP scripting of events than anything else).
CONCORD had to have known that, walking into this war with Nation, all they had to do was dangle ISK in front of capsuleers, and voila: you have a proxy Navy to do your fighting for you. They also (for a time) nudged capsuleers in the direction of continuing the fight by furnishing points-of-contact and -coordination to us. Haeldone Dorgiers was a perfect case-in-point: a CONCORD officer who almost overnight became our default go-to guy inside the most pervasive organization in high sec.
Sure he showed up on the battlefield from time-to-time (I remember being in a fleet that ended up saving his butt out in Monalaz), but for the most part his role in all this was to provide us crucial information. It was tacit approval of what we were doing by CONCORD, without themselves committing a fleet or army. And that's what makes CONCORD's tactics so beautiful and admirable. We do the fighting, they point and say "go here," and all along we know they have our six.
But in a way though that's also their Achilles heel, and I think that Kuvakei knows this. He shifted from fighting CONCORD to fighting capsuleers because we're a disorganized rabble, all things considered. There's no sense of unity and no "common platform" that we all agree upon, short of opening fire on Nation ships whenever and wherever. CONCORD is probably complacent because in all their history they've never confronted a seriously-overwhelming threat. I think that the Elder Fleet attack may have actually increased their complacency: it showed they were still the ones in charge after all the dust settled.
It would take a real bone-crunching event to bring them to their knees and "rattle their cages," and I mean a really bad situation. Taking out the CONCORD HQ in Yulai wouldn't do it: all they'd have to do is relocate elsewhere and start with what was already on-the-ground. But if Nation could eliminate those security safeguards for a sustained period of time, that would do it. Especially if CONCORD couldn't get them all re-established and had to code everything at, say, 0.5 status.
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My initial question would be: Does CONCORD have the resources to be a police force AND mount an effective offensive against the pirate factions beyond setting up distant recon outposts? Given that they don't, it kind of supports the notion that they cannot (unless we have evidence as to why they choose not to). Considering the conflict that erupted thanks to the Elder disruption of CONCORD, we could see why they might be a bit conservative with the resources they do have.
Considering the brutal nature of CONCORD and its unwavering adherence to maintaining peace in the high-sec systems, I don't think its much of a surprise that people have a dim view of them, either as corrupt/incompetent policemen or oppressive authority figures. I've lost my fair share of ships for stupid reasons, and CONCORD never once tried to mediate- they only seem to know the blunt end of a stick.
As for those who see CONCORD as a mighty impregnable force, those who respect their authority want to perceive them as an unfailing protector of order, and most likely want them to be much more powerful than they may actually be. Given that a majority of capsuleers inhabit high-sec space, I'm sure there are plenty of people that appreciate their company.
The way I see it, CONCORD exists for a few reasons:
1) maintaining the peace between the empires
2) maintaining trade between the empires to ensure peace
3) maintaining order amongst the capsuleer class.
CONCORD doesn't want peace between capsuleers, or they would have removed wars altogether. They know wars encourage production, and production encourages trade, and trade keeps peace in the larger galactic neighborhood. Points 1 and 2 are pretty much identical. Trade between the empires, profit motive, and the strong arm of CONCORD ensures that all-out war doesn't remain a commonplace situation. That's what they were made for, and they do this job well. And since capsuleers are already in their jurisdiction, it doesn't take a great stretch of the imagination that CONCORD would allow them as proxies to fight on their nation's behalf to resolve the current issues they do have rather than letting the major powers obliterate each other in a homicidal rage.
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At the end of the day, it frustrates me that all of this (like trying to rationalize much of the Empyrean Age storyline) just seems like fumbling in the darkness for a logical explanation for events that were never meant to have logical explanations but rather dramatic ones. While I admire the efforts made by some of the fiction staff to weave grand significance into the events of the last few years (or at least to keep us happy by implying such significance exists), the central plot lines were written because they had that "gosh-wow" factor and got enough neck hairs standing on ends in the halls of CCP (edit: and created convenient IC excuses for new gameplay mechanics), not because they were the logical result of interplay between the forces of the cluster.
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A: "We want to do new low-level PvP content for the next expansion."
B: "What if the empires, like, invaded each other and you could fight for them? That'd be awesome."
C: "How about having the Thukkers start it all? They're the least likely faction out there. That'd be cool."
A: "Sure, sounds good. Make it happen."
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A: "We want to do new high-level PvE content for the next expansion."
B: "What if the pirates, like, invaded hi-sec and you could fight against them? That'd be awesome."
C: "How about having Sansha come through w-space? They're the scariest faction out there. That'd be cool."
A: "Sure, sounds good. Make it happen."
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I'll just leave this here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) ;)
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I'll just leave this here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) ;)
Absolutely.
RPers say IC "FW is meaningless" because mechanically, FW is quite meaningless. That's gameplay.
But storywise, FW ISN'T meaningless as we have seen with the massive storyline developments precipitated by Gallente/Caldari FW.
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Working on the assumption that this isn't a gameplay/story integration issue ...
RPers say IC "FW is meaningless" because mechanically, FW is quite meaningless. That's gameplay.
I don't know if you'd also categorize us as being in the aforementioned group, but in the case of EVE there's also a group of us who argue that FW is distracting the Empires from the larger issue (Nation).
[...] Given that they don't, it kind of supports the notion that they cannot (unless we have evidence as to why they choose not to). Considering the conflict that erupted thanks to the Elder disruption of CONCORD, we could see why they might be a bit conservative with the resources they do have.
Let me posit a different theory to this, and no I'm not trying to be a pain in everyone's side. I've just started reading an interesting book titled The Next 100 Years by George Friedman. At one point in the book he argues that "[t]he United States doesn't need to win wars. It needs to simply disrupt things so the other side can't build up sufficient strength to challenge it."
Could CONCORD be pursuing a similar strategy? If they don't have the manpower to go gung-ho on everyone and unilaterally impose their system, they certain do have the financial resources and technology to give them an upper hand given the idea I just mentioned.
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I'll just leave this here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) ;)
Absolutely.
RPers say IC "FW is meaningless" because mechanically, FW is quite meaningless. That's gameplay.
But storywise, FW ISN'T meaningless as we have seen with the massive storyline developments precipitated by Gallente/Caldari FW.
Casiella, I'm aware of the Trope (spent many hours on that time consuming site while at work >.>), and I considered it before posting here... The issue I'm seeing is an inconsistency in the story without considering gameplay. CONCORD by PF, has the ability to do it, but they're choosing not to... Are they intending on the Nation to keep the Capsuleers from focusing on them?
What purpose does a very powerful entity, designed to protect and maintain order (and to a limited extent peace) in the spaceways of the cluster, that doesn't do it's intended design of preventing large factions from invading other large factions' space have? If the Amarr Empire decided they were going to drop a "small fleet" (say, the one that was used for the coronation ceremony) on Pator, CONCORD would be all up in that mess turning the Empire fleet on it's heels. But when the Nation does the same... they just shrug and throw ISK at capsuleers to fix it for them?
As for FW, I have a strong level of "willing suspension of disbelief" when discussing it. Both sides have completely 'won' at some point or another, nearly completely claiming the entirety of the contested area. There's just no end in sight, no 'goal' to aim for, no 'terms of completion' as it were. It's frustrating, and I don't envy the FW RPers at all in that respect; I hope they do give you an endgame for FW rather than keeping it as it stands (allow 'win conditions' or use a deus ex machina if it's absolutely frickin' necessary and they can't find a reasonable solution, but something needs to be done).
Yes, a lot of stories have been drawn from FW... but no storyline developments (at least the way I see it). I'd like to see results from actions, if possible in direct correlation to player actions; but, I'd settle for NPC actions at this point causing some result to occur.
And back to the main topic... Baxter provides an interesting suggestion, instead of wiping the non-CONCORD factions out, just keep them occupied enough they can't form a sizable enough force to actually present a challenge to CONCORD authority in hisec.... It makes sense kinda.
But I find it hard to believe they'd waste thousands of lives/day just to keep the non-CONCORD 'big factions' on their heels (by PF, CONCORD has several large fleets in Nulsec raiding non-CONCORD faction facilities to hinder them; plus SARO agents and others of that ilk). Logic says if they have the resources to do that against the Angels/Blooders/Guristas/Nation/Serps/Thukkers in hostile space, all the while maintaining 'absolute' :roll: control over capsuleers in highsec, they have the ability to recall those resources and tell Kuvakei's forces to GTFO of their "protected" space. No following them into nulsec to try and cripple the Nation, simply drive them off and then pay Capsuleers to deal the finishing blow out in Nulsec (or even suggest that it would be a 'good idea').
And there's always the possibility that I'm putting too much faith in CONCORD's ability to be a logical entity and they are actually so powerful they "done went stupid".
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The way I see it, CONCORD has been in a precarious position ever since the outbreak of FW. Even though they succeeded in watering that down into what basically seems to be a large-scale, continuous gladiatorial game featuring capsuleers as the major stars (giving them the attention they crave, and circus to the people), the fact remains that CONCORD is still formally employed by a collection of interstellar powers who are technically at war with each other. That can't be a comfortable situation to be in.
I think that CONCORD dragging their feet regarding the Sansha invasions actually makes some sense in this setting. By hiring capsuleers, CONCORD maintains the impression that they are doing something about Sansha, they provide a new way to keep capsuleers fed with glory and the people with circus, and they conserve their own fighting resources. And if the capsuleers should prove insufficient against the Sansha threat, then that might convince the empires to once again bury the war hatchets and ally against Sansha, which means CONCORD has a firm political ground to stand on once again.
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[...] the fact remains that CONCORD is still formally employed by a collection of interstellar powers who are technically at war with each other. That can't be a comfortable situation to be in.
Are they "employed" by the empires? PF suggests that CONCORD has become an increasingly independent organization with internal processes and sources of revenue not under empire control.
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Are they "employed" by the empires? PF suggests that CONCORD has become an increasingly independent organization with internal processes and sources of revenue not under empire control.
That they have become increasingly independent in practice does not change that their legitimacy - as well as their existence - is founded on one or more treaties between the Empires (chiefly the Yulai Treaty, it is implied). "Employment" might be an inaccurate term for the relationship, but I would hope it still gets the point across.
If hostility between the Empires were to escalate to the point where they withdraw from the agreement(s) underpinning CONCORD, the organization would have to either disband or go rogue. To me it seems like it's already too "self-aware" to willingly do the former, but not yet secure enough in its independent power to try for the latter. So if the threat from the Nation makes the Empires pull closer together again, possibly to the point of an armistice, good. Alternatively, if the Nation manages to hurt the Empires measurably while leaving CONCORD itself more or less alone, that would increase CONCORD's chances of success in a grand coup d'etat, if they were to entertain that idea.
Personally, I would love to see CONCORD go rogue in that way. So much, in fact, that I led a corp dedicated to that idea for a couple of years. It will never happen, of course. Although CONCORD remains one of my favorite factions in the game (along with Sansha's Nation), it is also, unfortunately, first and foremost a game mechanic.
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Personally, I would love to see CONCORD go rogue in that way. So much, in fact, that I led a corp dedicated to that idea for a couple of years. It will never happen, of course. Although CONCORD remains one of my favorite factions in the game (along with Sansha's Nation), it is also, unfortunately, first and foremost a game mechanic.
Yeah, I came across some of your stuff from that timeframe when I was first starting out. Then I was sad to learn you'd gone Nation instead, because it might've been something I'd enjoy getting involved in.
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The Empyrean Age explains some of the situation. Break the rules, you get a CONCORD fleet telling you to stop at the end of a particle stream. Follow the rules, or bend the rules to an extent that cannot be enforced by CONCORD, and you're golden.
The Thukker fleet caused issues because of the loopholes. Kador got around the rapid response system because his actions were not endorsed by his Empire; he used his personal fleet. Sansha got around the rapid response system in a similar way, using capsuleers. The Empires get around it daily on smaller scales, and also enlist the aid of capsuleers in endeavors that skirt the line between what CONCORD allows and what the Empires really want to do. CONCORD is just now learning how to circumvent their own rules, but they have only one means of accomplishing this:
Capsuleers.
Capsuleers are the built-in counter balance, on all fronts. Faction Warfare, anti-piracy actions within Empire space, etc. I don't see a storyline/game mechanics segregation at all, however, the explanations are very much hidden in static and noise.
CONCORD/The Empires only let capsuleers see what they want them to see. ;)
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On CONCORD not stopping the incursions (and the empire navies too):
The expansion trailer suggests to me that since the build-up ended the target of incursions has been the capsuleers. While CONCORD polices them it is not their role to protect capsuleers from anything but other capsuleers in hi-sec (and that probably to ensure that capsuleers working for the empires aren't overly impeded). The empires made quite the fuss over misuse of assets during the Code Aria inquiry so it is likely that, as with may things that can't be kept private, their hands are tied.
I do find it interesting that CONCORD didn't make more of a showing during the build-up. It is possible that if the Jovians were having issues then, as a member nation whose assets cannot be allowed to fall into Nations hands, CONCORD focused their efforts there.
It's all just complex hand-waving, there's been very little PF on exactly what is and what isn't within CONCORDs sphere and what there is has only served to make things even more complex. It's barely understandable exactly what CONCORD is now. They've been a hall of diplomacy, a police force, a tool of the Jovians, a defender against external threats, peacekeepers, strongly involved in the clusters economy, etc. In PF it has grown beyond it's original roles and become its own entity and it seems either CCP hasn't taken the time to define exactly what this new faction is or they are holding back some surprises from Yulia for later.
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Principle of CONCORD:
Actions that disrupt interstellar trade and/or threaten civilisations, are A Bad Thing.
That's pretty much it.
Random acts of violence (pirate actions and pirate organisations) are frowned upon, while corporate wars are not overly important, as third parties can use competitor organisations for their trade, so long as no civilisation-ending actions are committed.
Destroying planetary ecosystems + civilisations falls under "A Bad Thing", as with the cluster being so well mapped, then there's a very real risk that an all out war would result in the extinction of humanity. So the heaviest weapons are put away.
As far as I know, there's various Yulai Conventions on space warfare (you see them in those mails you get when wars expire i think).
Attacking Concord pretty much says you don't agree with those conventions, and as such, the heaviest weapons may be used against you without any fear of reprisals.