Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Matariki Rain on 24 Oct 2010, 23:52
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I'm veering off the original topic matter somewhat here, but one of the 'features' of slavery is that as a slave you generally don't get to choose who you have sex with, in what circumstances, or who is the other parent of your children. Do think about that sometime.
A couple of comments from Earth history on this, intended anecdotally rather than a part of a case, although I play that they're true enough in parts of the Amarrian Empire.
Slaves as (intentional) sex-toys:
Along with the wealth that poured into Rome in the century before Augustus came to power (about 130-30 B.C.) came a craze -- especially among the rich -- to import Greek art, customs, and people into Rome. Wealthy Roman gentlemen adopted the fashion of buying slaves to satisfy their sexual whims. Upper-class people took it for granted that the elite male would have his pretty boy toy to make love to. He would also have his female love toys -- all under the same roof with his wife. But it is important to remember that these sexual habits -- shocking to us, perhaps -- were not problematic for the Roman elites, since it was love between unequal partners. And, legally speaking, it was sex between the owner of the property and his property. Considering that a beautiful boy or girl slave cost about as much as a Mercedes, not to have intercourse with your slave would be like buying a Mercedes and never driving it.
John R. Clarke, Roman Sex: 100 BC - 250 AD, p.88
And a pop-culture reference to what the genetics say about slavery in the US (I'm in a hurry, but this seems pretty typical):
African Americans, just like our first lady, are a racially mixed or mulatto people—deeply and overwhelmingly so. Fact: Fully 58 percent of African-American people, according to geneticist Mark Shriver at Morehouse College, possess at least 12.5 percent European ancestry (again, the equivalent of that one great-grandparent). As a matter of fact, if I analyzed the y-DNA (which a man inherits exactly from his father, and he from his father, etc.) of all the black players in the NBA, fully one-third (somewhere between 30 percent and 35 percent) would, incredibly, discover that they were descended from a white male who impregnated a black female, most likely a female slave, just as a white man did Michelle Obama’s third-great-grandmother. In the ‘60s, we were fond of saying that we are an “African people.” Well, our DNA proclaims loudly that we are a European people, a multicultural people, a people black as well as white. You might think of us as an Afro-Mulatto people, our genes recombined in that test tube called slavery.
http://www.genealogywise.com/profiles/blogs/professor-gates-michelles
I play that genetics are important and difficult for the Returned not only because some of us were bred -- like dog breeds -- for extremes of physical work or other reasons, but because there's often too much Amarrian in the male line. Some Amarrian slaveholders took a very personal interest in their breeding programmes.
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[mod]Split from 'What's too far...' topic.[/mod]
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No way, Amarrians would never bang their slaves. :roll:
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I'd better page Black Necris.
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I've seen this used as a theme in someone's background (uncertain parentage, and details would be a spoiler of characters other than my own, so we'll skip them). I liked the way it was done; no explicit mentions of sex but some very nice exploration of lots of stuff. Likewise what I have seen about the breeding program stories Matariki mentiones, I have liked; tastefully done and seems to respect the topic.
I have to say though that I have a personal genuine dislike to the "I am a sex slave of So-and-so!" RP though. When it seems clear that it is done for the personal, partly sexual, enjoyment of the players involved, it seems to me to belittle the actual issue.
Again, to go back to the original thread; what "goes too far" is less about the subject matter but about how you use it.
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I've had to dance around this one before.
Grae owns...a garage full of mercedes. They see...use...not that often, and nothing brutal, but still.
It's one of those things that I decided early on that an Amarrian, even a more progressive one, would probably do, much like the Roman example above; it's just not that strange a practice in the Empire.
The trick is not to go blabbing about it all day. It's a crass topic that just slaps people across the face OOC-wise. I might drop a hint to some ERPer trying to get into my pants ("Oh, stop it really, I have people for that.") but that's about it.
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I've had to dance around this one before.
Grae owns...a garage full of mercedes. They see...use...not that often, and nothing brutal, but still.
It's one of those things that I decided early on that an Amarrian, even a more progressive one, would probably do, much like the Roman example above; it's just not that strange a practice in the Empire.
The trick is not to go blabbing about it all day. It's a crass topic that just slaps people across the face OOC-wise. I might drop a hint to some ERPer trying to get into my pants ("Oh, stop it really, I have people for that.") but that's about it.
I agree with Graelyn on this subject. It is something that happens, but is not spoken of. To speak of it would be a breach of common decency, though there is nothing particularly 'wrong' with it, among Amarrians anyway :)
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I agree with Graelyn.
Like so many things in amarrian society, what you do behind closed doors is done behind closed doors and has to concern noone else.
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Sex with slaves (differing greatly from sexual slavery) has substantial history behind it even into the modern era. I see no reason that this trend would discontinue even through space and many thousands of years. Like I do in life and with my character (who actually owns no slaves) I try to stay out of the gritty details.
Probably one of those things everyone does but nobody talks about.
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I'm veering off the original topic matter somewhat here, but one of the 'features' of slavery is that as a slave you generally don't get to choose who you have sex with,
But, I don't generally get to choose with who I have sex with either. Sometimes I go up to some girl and say: 'I chose you', but it rarely works.... :cry:
This isn't restricted to slaves. Most women in nearly all historical societies (and even in many modern societies) don't get to choose who they marry, who they have sex with, or where, when and how.
The whole concept of free choice in such matters is pretty modern.
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Sex with slaves (differing greatly from sexual slavery) has substantial history behind it even into the modern era...
Sex with slaves = Amarr
Sexual slavery = Gallente
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I'm veering off the original topic matter somewhat here, but one of the 'features' of slavery is that as a slave you generally don't get to choose who you have sex with,
But, I don't generally get to choose with who I have sex with either. Sometimes I go up to some girl and say: 'I chose you', but it rarely works.... :cry:
Fair point. I'd been thinking of it in the negative, but had phrased it in the positive. As a slave, you generally don't have right of veto, or much in the way of "freedom to try your chances and exert your preferences in the selection market".
This isn't restricted to slaves. Most women in nearly all historical societies (and even in many modern societies) don't get to choose who they marry, who they have sex with, or where, when and how.
The whole concept of free choice in such matters is pretty modern.
Interesting, isn't it?
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Sex with slaves (differing greatly from sexual slavery) has substantial history behind it even into the modern era...
Sex with slaves = Amarr
Sexual slavery = Gallente
I take it you're both using some meaning of "sexual slavery" other than the usual one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery
24/7 D/s lifestyle isn't the topic on the table.
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Sex with slaves (differing greatly from sexual slavery) has substantial history behind it even into the modern era...
Sex with slaves = Amarr
Sexual slavery = Gallente
I take it you're both using some meaning of "sexual slavery" other than the usual one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery
24/7 D/s lifestyle isn't the topic on the table.
Im refering to the exact definition you linked. "Sexual slavery" includes forms of forced/unwilling prostitution. Having sex with a slave is very different from a women who has been forced into prostitution.
In the Amarr Empire people would have unconsensual sex with thier slaves, which is very different to women who have been forced into prostitution by persons or because of circumstances or situation.
Because of the nature of the Federation, forced prostitution would be common in the Federation.
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I don't know that you can compare things as easily.
Esp. since in the Amarr empire, women have as much right to their own property and stuff as men do.
Which i don't think was teh case in Rome? or other societies.
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Forcing a slave to sleep with someone is one of the things Esna has long ago decided must be done away with in slavery. He views slavery as a corrective, not permanent, measure; forcing someone to sleep with someone else - let alone carry their child - isn't very likely to produce a reformed person who may be released to take up a role in society again. To him, forced sexual favors is just another symptom of the prevailing view that slaves are not people to be helped or saved, but objects to be used.
Amusingly, he recently ran into an a former breeder slave in The Broken Piano, who was rather spiteful towards all Amarr. As soon as she told him what happened to her, he promptly apologized to her for her experiences, which took her completely off guard.
Slaves who actively choose to sleep with / seek a relationship with their owners is something Esna has rather more mixed feelings about - it's a fine line between being close to someone for your own reasons, and because they literally own and control you.
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I never really have been sure if PF lends any support to the theory that Amarrian religion requires chastity outside of marriage. That always seemed to me like something players bring with them based on current Christian teachings. More directly, though, Esna's viewpoint seems more in line with orthodox Amarrian teachings: if the purpose of slavery is enlightenment, then rape does not have a place in the arrangement. The Speaker of Truths (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=11-04-07) chronicle seems to lend credence to this cultural view, at any rate.
(Side note: also one of my favorites because it appears to make reference to what most people today call the Old Testament. Based on the familiarity there, I'd assume that religious scholars, at least, would be familiar with other holy books related to the Catholic canon and possibly others as well. But that's probably best suited for another thread.)
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also, in addition to what i said earlier, there is position of women in society.
arranged marriage + produced heirs to secure property may occur, but after that, the man + woman need not see each other again.
which means the existence of Mancubines. Because the alternative of chastity for teh next few decades doesn't make sense, since Amarr women have status. Or lesbians.
And a consequence of that, will be significant numbers of half-amarr children, because some women would want to have a child by their mancubine. 1% of a billion is still a large number.
And, what then would those children do? if the mancubine is a slave, then the child would not have any status at all, which I think the women would have a problem with. A noble woman's children with her husband would be her heirs, the ones with her mancubine must have some status, cannot be mere property for her heirs to dispose of if they feel like it.
So, the children have to be commoners, at least. Which would mean I think the mancubines also have to be commoners?
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Im rewriting Gottii's backstory so that he is an escaped Mancubine from the Empire...
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also, in addition to what i said earlier, there is position of women in society.
arranged marriage + produced heirs to secure property may occur, but after that, the man + woman need not see each other again.
which means the existence of Mancubines. Because the alternative of chastity for teh next few decades doesn't make sense, since Amarr women have status. Or lesbians.
And a consequence of that, will be significant numbers of half-amarr children, because some women would want to have a child by their mancubine. 1% of a billion is still a large number.
And, what then would those children do? if the mancubine is a slave, then the child would not have any status at all, which I think the women would have a problem with. A noble woman's children with her husband would be her heirs, the ones with her mancubine must have some status, cannot be mere property for her heirs to dispose of if they feel like it.
So, the children have to be commoners, at least. Which would mean I think the mancubines also have to be commoners?
Actually, in most racial slavery systems, you take the status of your least socially prominent ancestry. If you were 3/4ths of the dominant race, and only a 1/4th of the slave race (and it was discernible at a glance), you were considered a member of the slave race. Its one reason why women were much less likely to take slave lovers (at least in their years of highest fertility).
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Mancubine. lols. I love it.
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I envision the Amarrian "sex with slaves" to be more of a "You, slave, come hither and service me" situation, and the Gallente "sexual slavery" to more of the "person chained in a room whose sole purpose is to have sex with whoever".
In the Amarr scenario it seems more 'casual', and I would think be directed at the more subservient/willing slaves. I mean, said Amarr just wants to get their rocks off, not have some huge confrontation or 'work' at it, ie forced sex/rape
EDIT: among the complacent/really brainwashed( :) ) slaves, it may even be considered a badge of honor of sorts. Just speculating
In the Gallente scenario, I'd imagine all kinds of not nice things happening to a very unwilling person.
My random 0.02ISK.
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What we need now is a holoseries, "Stacmon Vice".
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I envision the Amarrian "sex with slaves" to be more of a "You, slave, come hither and service me" situation, and the Gallente "sexual slavery" to more of the "person chained in a room whose sole purpose is to have sex with whoever".
In the Amarr scenario it seems more 'casual', and I would think be directed at the more subservient/willing slaves. I mean, said Amarr just wants to get their rocks off, not have some huge confrontation or 'work' at it, ie forced sex/rape
EDIT: among the complacent/really brainwashed( :) ) slaves, it may even be considered a badge of honor of sorts. Just speculating
In the Gallente scenario, I'd imagine all kinds of not nice things happening to a very unwilling person.
My random 0.02ISK.
I'm going to agree with the "sex with slaves" description here, I don't think it's meant to be done out of malice or disdain for the slave, simply lacking the effort at the time to woo someone by their own efforts into bed (also, sleeping around in 'proper society' gets you a bad name in your social circles). Another thing to consider, the slaves are seen as part of the household, and if the owner is doing things correctly there's no worries about any medical problems (STDs being the most common) coming from "being serviced" by them that could come from outside the house and unknown people.
As for the brainwashing... well, for some castes of slaves, it is very likely considered an honor or privilege. Without going into details, this is used to a degree on Inara's estates. Which leads to another common misconception that all slaves have an undying hatred towards their owners; many, infact, care strongly for their owners, and a chance to be that intimate may be something they desire.
"Sexual slavery" is... it's a very different topic, and something that I highly doubt applies to the Empire as a whole (I'm sure there's a few people in the Empire that have 'sexual slaves', but I don't see it as prevalent). If there's something in PF or historically that leads you to think that I'm mislead on this, please feel free to share.
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We are definitely on the same page, Inara.