Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Saede Riordan on 21 Sep 2010, 12:20
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So, this spun out of a discussion with some friends, which spun out of me getting flak for having hookers in my bar.
Basically...what is the big deal? Why is there so much negative energy surrounding this? Is it just our stupid puritanically obsessed western culture?
I see it this way, we live in a horrid dark spaceship universe, with slavery and torture, and mind controlling space zombies. So why does everyone cry foul OOC when one of my corpmates decides to try to make some isk this way?
I'm really just confused here, what is the issue with this? If you don't want to support it, Don't pay her, but the amount of flak coming at me and the corp for this was just sort of redic.
So I gotta ask, why? why is this such a problem?
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Um. Which bar was this again? >.> :D
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Um. Which bar was this again? >.> :D
Stars End Tavern
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Interesting. I may, um, have to continue transitioning to a new character. And visit. ;)
To clarify my stance: this relates in general to my stance on ERP. If the players involved are of age, then keep it in private (e.g. I assume the "party" is not held in the public channel) and it's all good. Of all the things we do in games, including RP, "sex for money" ranks pretty low on my list of evil things. I mean, I feel confident in my assumption that none of us actually endorse RL genocide, slavery, etc.
Some of us have played some downright evil characters and done some pretty dark things, whether in EVE or in other games. I feel ambiguous at best about some of the things I RPed out as Joron Darkdust in SWG, but taking a Twi'lek dancer up to a ship for some private "entertainment" doesn't compare with the torture and betrayal that the character committed (and suffered). But IRL, I'm an entirely harmless person who, over time, has moved toward an even more rigorous view on nonviolence.
Note that this stance on IC sexual activity is entirely divorced from the RL considerations of prostitution, which are far more complex due to power structures, abuse, and many other factors.
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So, this spun out of a discussion with some friends, which spun out of me getting flak for having hookers in my bar.
Basically...what is the big deal? Why is there so much negative energy surrounding this? Is it just our stupid puritanically obsessed western culture?
I dunno, my own western culture really doesn't have that much negative energy associated with hookers.
Perhaps people objected to the manner it was brought?
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Perhaps people objected to the manner it was brought?
Perhaps they thought it was for pure OOC reasons. (In which case, I'd ask what business it is of theirs even so, but that's another topic entirely. :) )
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I'm not a westerner, nor am I puritan... and I think prostitutes are disgusting.
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So, this spun out of a discussion with some friends, which spun out of me getting flak for having hookers in my bar.
Basically...what is the big deal? Why is there so much negative energy surrounding this? Is it just our stupid puritanically obsessed western culture?
I see it this way, we live in a horrid dark spaceship universe, with slavery and torture, and mind controlling space zombies. So why does everyone cry foul OOC when one of my corpmates decides to try to make some isk this way?
I'm really just confused here, what is the issue with this? If you don't want to support it, Don't pay her, but the amount of flak coming at me and the corp for this was just sort of redic.
So I gotta ask, why? why is this such a problem?
Bolded.
If the corpmate is a Capsuleer, that tends to be quite a wall banger for some people.
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Seconded Hunter's reply, but I feel that way about piracy to, among others. Your filthy rich a massively powerful, and you need to sell yourself/kill and ransom? Yes, totally belivable :bash:
I'm not very impressed with prostitutes personally though I can see the 'need' argument in special types of cases. A Capsuleer has no such need, however. Not at all.
For a complete overview I should mention that I find the ones paying a prostitute for her 'services' are evne more weakly and disgusting than the one doing the trade, I won't however derail this further.
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Why do you not see the 'need'? They don't call it the oldest profession for nothing.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Prostitute
Apparently Prostitution is a CCP sanctioned activity.
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Capsuleers would not have a need to pay 50 million ISK to bang another capsuleer, when they can pay one ISK to bang about ten non-pilot women at the same time.
That, is what I imagine the attitude to be.
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Maybe, the 'john' in this case may not want some gaggle of mortal babes, and won't settle for anything less than another capsuleer.
The point being, if there is a demand, someone is going to supply it.
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[mod]Please remember the FAQ (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=page;id=4). We should all treat other players and their chosen RP and playstyles with respect, even when we disagree with them. This is pre-emptive and not directed at any individual or comment above, but we don't want this thread to go pear-shaped, please.[/mod]
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capsuleer prostitutes also have the connectors for the pod interface and such.
the possibility may exist of taking a cable and connecting capsuleer A to capsuleer B. While they're going at it with their organs, their brains are also connected.
For whatever weirdness that would do.
That is not something ordinary ones would have.
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Basically...what is the big deal? Why is there so much negative energy surrounding this? Is it just our stupid puritanically obsessed western culture?
The reason why a lot of people in the "puritan" west are against prostitution is because quite often, it spurs on horrible things, such as child prostitution, human trafficking, and other very unsavory and very unethical things.
And no, those things generally dont go away if you legalized the practice.
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I'm guessing essentially people can't see a joke for what it is. While I never thought to whore myself out IC because frankly I don't have to OOC nor would Jonathan IC in anycase, I think that doing it is rather awesome.
I mean it's a video game. If people get sand in their vag's because someone is having fun RP'ing an aspect no one would expect, then they need to step back. Now if your corpmate was being hated purely IC, it'd be more understandable as IC'ly I imagine most characters wouldn't see the need or want of prostitution except some really dark people.
I laughed a bit when I read it. Me and friends would do stuff like that in WoW when I played it when it was released and the amount of hate and abuse we got was hilarious. Just remind people it's a game that your corpmate pays $15.00 a month for to do whatever he/she/it wants to do.
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Alright, I'll probably ruffle some feathers with this one, but I'll go ahead anyway. Feel free to take shots at me afterward as you please.
Personally, I see the practice as a cop out. I admit, I probably judge others too much for their RP, but to me its on the same level as the "child prodigy," the "empowered seductress," the "evil genius." They're the lowest common denominators in the RP sphere, and while they're interesting once or twice in your lifetime, they dull very quickly and detract from immersion. Admittedly, "silent loner" isn't very original either, but at least its less-seen.
HOWEVAR!!1!one
As for the legitimacy of the practice, purely in terms of plausibility, of course there shouldn't be a problem. Let alone in more tame MMOs, where it fits into the "dark underbelly" of the RP world. In EVE, the whole universe is a violent, dangerous, untamed, ugly place. We murder hundreds of millions of crewmen a day, for fun and profit. We produce and sell mind-melting drugs. We turn on one another through political espionage and corporate theft. We start small-scale wars based on race, religion, or sometimes just the nature of a wartime market.
Prostitution is very, very low on the list of things "wrong" with the universe. I may have my problems from an "RPer" perspective, but in terms of RL morality, its just another character. No one should catch ethical flak for the choice to RP a prostitute, because it's not them, its a character.
That being said, I love it and I'm never leaving. <3
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Degenerate!
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The reason why a lot of people in the "puritan" west are against prostitution is because quite often, it spurs on horrible things, such as child prostitution, human trafficking, and other very unsavory and very unethical things.
And no, those things generally dont go away if you legalized the practice.
Nothing wrong with prostitution especially when its well managed. (legalised) This allows regulations and rules to be put into place which means the main business can be kept relatively clean. The illegal stuff will happen no matter so to put them all into the same group really suits for those who see prostitution as a "evil" thing. Similar to weed leads to hard drugs assumptions which is also untrue.
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Capsuleers would not have a need to pay 50 million ISK to bang another capsuleer, when they can pay one ISK to bang about ten non-pilot women at the same time.
That, is what I imagine the attitude to be.
That is at least the only concern I have about the topic; for what reason would somebody pay for a service he or she could get much cheaper and at excellent quality somewhere else?
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So, this spun out of a discussion with some friends, which spun out of me getting flak for having hookers in my bar.
Basically...what is the big deal? Why is there so much negative energy surrounding this? Is it just our stupid puritanically obsessed western culture?
I see it this way, we live in a horrid dark spaceship universe, with slavery and torture, and mind controlling space zombies. So why does everyone cry foul OOC when one of my corpmates decides to try to make some isk this way?
I'm really just confused here, what is the issue with this? If you don't want to support it, Don't pay her, but the amount of flak coming at me and the corp for this was just sort of redic.
So I gotta ask, why? why is this such a problem?
Bolded.
If the corpmate is a Capsuleer, that tends to be quite a wall banger for some people.
I am going to have to agree with Ghost, purely because I have not idea how these services are offered, how it is roleplayed and what you mean when people pay ISK for the services.
You would get different answers for me depending on the circumstances, but I would raise an eyebrow if it boiled down to someone operating what is essentially an in game sex chat line because we all know that ISK can be exchanged for real money both directly or indirectly.
BTW, I have seen adverts for in game sex chat line. I think at the time the advertised cost was 10 million ISK per 10 minutes. Money upfront, so it was most probably a scam.
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That is at least the only concern I have about the topic; for what reason would somebody pay for a service he or she could get much cheaper and at excellent quality somewhere else?
I ask the same about people who pay Apple tax. Let me know when you find out. :bash:
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You would get different answers for me depending on the circumstances, but I would raise an eyebrow if it boiled down to someone opperating what is essentially an in game sex chatline because we all know that ISK can be exchanged for real money both directly or indirectly.
So the issue is that someone could effectively pay RL cash for IG sexual-oriented chat? That is, they buy a PLEX from CCP, sell it on the market, then use the ISK for this activity.
In my view, that's similar to any other controversial sandbox purchase in EVE: gambling, griefing, etc.
Note that, as long as everyone is following the ToS from CCP, RL cash only flows one way here. Players pay CCP, then exchange that value for social services of various sorts in the game, but the money doesn't flow back out to players, barring illicit RMT.
And we can neatly sidestep the RL issues regarding prostitution here. Whether legalization on Earth extends the highly destructive effects often associated with the sex industry, one can simply make it up in any direction IG. After all, we already have human trafficking, forced slavery, rape, and undoubtedly child abuse (though RPing this last would strike me personally as beyond the pale). But a capsuleer offering specialty services at incredibly high prices can avoid that issue if desired. Or run a full-fledged pleasure hub with all that that can imply.
This issue will only increase in visibility when we finally get Incarna. Of course, at the rate it's going, that will be about when I'm ready to retire...
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I've posted in this thread constructively, however this probably won't be seen as such.
Anyway. I dislike the idea of ingame prostitution for several reasons.
I feel that it contributes to several unwelcome stereotypes, and encourages unwelcome behaviour from some people. "LolRP", "Roleplay is cybering", etc.
I think it generates flak and unwelcome comments to corpmates, their friends and associates, other roleplayers, and to girl players.
"Hey, your corpmates a prostitute, are you one too?" "If i give you money, will you talk dirty to me?" "You're friends with that prostitute girl, are you into that too?" "You know that player who cybers for isk, how about some of that?"
And so on.
And I don't want to have to deal with any of that sort of thing, so I don't want anything to do with ingame prostitution or people who do it that publically.
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Relevant to the issues here...(posted with permission)
xxxx > ((Well, I'm still interested, but I have a few concerns. I tried my hand at RP in EVE. Was introduced to the Star's End Tavern. Let me just say the experience was.....uncomfortable and bizarre.))
xxxx > ((I'm a little nervous about RP now))
xxxx > ((Really bizarre, sick violence, godmodding, weird, public sex acts.....))
xxxx > ((It could not be called a quality experience, hahah))
xxxx > ((Yeah! I get the feeling that whoever sent me there did it as a prank.))
xxxx ((And the dom/sub thing? Really bizarre. The snuff cybering? Almost got me to quit the game. I felt like I needed a shower after I saw that.))
xxxx > ((Hey, if that's someone's deal, more power to them, Cool. However, that is a TERRIBLE introduction to the EVE RP community))
xxxx ((Yeah. Cybersex that involves killing one of the capsuleer characters. That was all done behind closed doors, but it was made perfectly clear what was going on.))
xxxx ((Well, it was a bad experience, but I don't think it's representative of all EVE RP. That's what I wanted to talk about tonight. What ism RP like in your corp?))
Not something I think we, as the EVE RP community, want to leave as an impression on people
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Anyway. I dislike the idea of ingame prostitution for several reasons.
....
And I don't want to have to deal with any of that sort of thing, so I don't want anything to do with ingame prostitution or people who do it that publically.
I have my own reasons for disliking it, which are mostly real-life hangups and not constructive, so I haven't mentioned them, but this was something I hadn't thought of.
Thank you for that Lou.
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I want to mention that it may also expose the players involved to EULA/TOS issues. The RP part aside, IIRC there have been characters offering cyber for ISK in the past (spamming it in hubs, even) and CCP shut it down.
Similarly, 'inappropriate' content in 'public' channels raises issues. All it takes is someone with a grudge (or who is, in fact, offended) petitioning.
CCP isn't likely to care if you're RPing or not if it comes to their attention.
I'm not going to comment on RPing sex working with whatever fidelity as far as validity of RP or not, etc. Having seen some of the public side of this particular channel's version, possibly in the same incident that the person that Seriphyn quoted, it's not my cup of tea. What people do in their channels isn't my concern, though. I would say that it would probably be a good idea to make sure that if you are going to involve other players, make very sure they want to be involved, and are comfortable with it.
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Um. Huh. Wow. That's not at all what I had envisioned.
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Um. Huh. Wow. That's not at all what I had envisioned.
My thoughts too.
I have no problem with IG prostitution or having prostitutes in a channel, but as I said in my previous post it is a little different if it is like a sex chat channel.
In all my table top RP experiance there has always been prostitutes. It is the oldest living proffession and what lowly peasent wouldnt think twice if offered something eqivilant to a life times wage for one night? What savage barbarian wouldnt look at the bar wench and think about it after spending two months in the bush with a group of guys.
But in my tabletop experiance its never been more than and exange of money and a person saying "I disapear upstairs with the wench". If and in game channel has prostitutes and a person pays the prostitue and says "/me dissapears with the women though the back door" I think thats fine, and part of the Eve universe.
If people want to disapear into another channel and RP the act, thats fine, as long as it is to concenting adults doing things in private. I would raise an eyebrow, however, because there is an exchange of money with something akin to a RL sex chatline going on, with no way of knowing if it is actually adults.
But yes, depending on the way it is done, or advertised, or details made known, it would get very different reactions.
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Once you get into cybersex, the line between IC prostitution and OOC prostitution becomes very thin indeed.
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Once you get into cybersex, the line between IC prostitution and OOC prostitution becomes very thin indeed.
I perhaps agree with this. In my previous posts I reffered to an "exchange of money" which can be debatable, especially if you start applying the eula and concept of PLEX. Whats not debatable, in my opinion, is that there is an exchange of "value". iSK, even if only pixels, has value whether monetary or otherwise.
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So basically, there is no way to do it at all, since there is the potential for abuse, and therefore the entire situation is banned outright? how very like wow. -_-
sorry of coming off as harsh on this, I don't mean to, but I'm rather peeved that there is absolutely no way to work this, as being a space pimp is awesome, and its something I really enjoy doing.
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There is a very fine line between roleplaying as a space pimp, and cybering with a person. Roleplay or not, actually 'doing' the act is cybering.
You can roleplay a space pimp who 'sells' out prostitutes and that is fine. Fade-To-Black is the most useful and necessary concept here to keep it within the acceptable, T-Rating of the game. If you want to do anything beyond that, you need to keep it behind closed doors basically. It gets really dodgy, and really creepy to a lot of people.
Does that help?
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So basically, there is no way to do it at all, since there is the potential for abuse, and therefore the entire situation is banned outright? how very like wow. -_-
sorry of coming off as harsh on this, I don't mean to, but I'm rather peeved that there is absolutely no way to work this, as being a space pimp is awesome, and its something I really enjoy doing.
Nikita, I have never gone into your tavern, so I dont know how it is done at the moment. Perhaps you could enlighten us? It may go a long way to move the disccussion forward and perhaps identify better ways of doing it that wont generate instant flames.
Is it IC sex chat it the public channel? If it is private sex chat, why does everyone know about it? Is it sex chat at all or just a "/me dissapears with a hooker"?
Prostitutes belong in the dark Eve universe full with slavery. Perhaps not all OCC methods of doing does though?
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The status and mystique associated with capsuleers would probably have great sexual appeal to some people. Like posh pron in England.
IRL, some rich people pay ludicrous amounts of cash for extreme high end prostitutes. Not all hookers are toothless crackhoes. Some make more money than most of us.
A capsuleer being a hooker seems perfectly ok IC-wise to me. She might even be out of my price range.
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If you ERP in public, in front of my character, you may unwittingly unlock EVIL GRAELYN MODE.
Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly, and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to EVIL GRAELYN.
EVIL GRAELYN may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
If EVIL GRAELYN begins to smoke (or toke, God help you...), get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
Do Not Taunt EVIL GRAELYN.
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So basically, there is no way to do it at all, since there is the potential for abuse, and therefore the entire situation is banned outright? how very like wow. -_-
sorry of coming off as harsh on this, I don't mean to, but I'm rather peeved that there is absolutely no way to work this, as being a space pimp is awesome, and its something I really enjoy doing.
Nikita, I have never gone into your tavern, so I dont know how it is done at the moment. Perhaps you could enlighten us? It may go a long way to move the disccussion forward and perhaps identify better ways of doing it that wont generate instant flames.
Is it IC sex chat it the public channel? If it is private sex chat, why does everyone know about it? Is it sex chat at all or just a "/me dissapears with a hooker"?
Prostitutes belong in the dark Eve universe full with slavery. Perhaps not all OCC methods of doing does though?
basically, my girls go around, flirt with people, and if someone seems interested, they discretely tell them their prices and such, and if they accept, they go into a room, the bar does have a legitimate Inn attached. Some people (most) want to RP it out, which is really the point for some people, while others just handwave it. There is no ERP in public, and I will *ahem* anything that seems to be turning into it in public. I might be more...liberal...in what happens in public, but there are limits to how far I'll let it go. People no about it almost entirely through the grapevine, I don't really advertise.
This seems perfectly fine to me.
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Nikita, to set my mind at ease, could you respond to the posts earlier? Seri and Silver mentioned some things even supporters of "RP freedom" (like me) may find particularly distasteful, particularly in a public channel.
If it works more or less like what you describe, that sounds okay: a channel that contains activity more or less on the scale of what you'd see in (say) the public parts of a strip club, with any other, more explicit activities taking place in private chat. Hell, even strip clubs typically have the lap dances in semi-private booths.
But if it has lots of activity in public, especially extreme hard-core things like violence and even snuff, then my opinions would change significantly.
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Nikita, to set my mind at ease, could you respond to the posts earlier? Seri and Silver mentioned some things even supporters of "RP freedom" (like me) may find particularly distasteful, particularly in a public channel.
If it works more or less like what you describe, that sounds okay: a channel that contains activity more or less on the scale of what you'd see in (say) the public parts of a strip club, with any other, more explicit activities taking place in private chat. Hell, even strip clubs typically have the lap dances in semi-private booths.
But if it has lots of activity in public, especially extreme hard-core things like violence and even snuff, then my opinions would change significantly.
Sure, yes, in terms of scale, its basically like the public parts of a strip club, that in mind, I do own at least two of the people who frequent the bar, so there is a bit of D/s stuff going on, but nothing really bad in public.
As for violence, keep in mind, I run the Stars End like a frontier Saloon, there is the occasional tussle there, but no, there's no violent sex, or normal sex, in public.
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I'm going to echo what others say. When you RP sex, characterization, storytelling and roleplaying gets thrown out the window. You might as well just ditch the avatars in this case. Cynically, I see it like this, as someone who engages in ERP often.
Outsiders are genuinely going to wonder why there is any need for this sort of RP, especially the domme/sub stuff. As people who wander into channels hoping to engage in the background of EVE, write a story via RP, and characterize their avatars, they are just going to see these activities are 'cyb0rs'
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Speaking for myself only, ERP does not always throw out characterization, storytelling, and roleplaying. While I've not engaged in this activity in EVE, I don't see why the "passport photo avatar" would change that for me.
Similarly, one could say that PVP throws out characterization and storytelling, but many of the PVP/RPers in EVE (which is almost, but not quite, redundant) would probably disagree.
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Well, yes, on the few occassions there has been what I'd actually call ERP (and not cyb0rs) has actually been, well, good RP with characterization, particularly when it's not the center of the interaction all the time. "Competing egos" is an example of one.
Anyway, in a nutshell, people are going to wonder "This is a rich, detailed universe with plenty of fiction and storyline...of all the places from the backstory to make an RP channel from, and RP in, why are people RPing D/s?"
stuff like that.
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Anyway, in a nutshell, people are going to wonder "This is a rich, detailed universe with plenty of fiction and storyline...of all the places from the backstory to make an RP channel from, and RP in, why are people RPing D/s?"
Why not? There's nothing wrong with it imo, its fun, it provides interesting characterization, and it fits in the game universe.
Anyway, in a nutshell, people are going to wonder "This is a rich, detailed universe with plenty of fiction and storyline...of all the places from the backstory to make an RP channel from, and RP in, why are people RPing with Seriphyn?"
The arguement of "I don't like something therefore why would anyone want to do it?" is a really conceited, egotistical stance to take. Plenty of people like doing things you hate, its a big game world. Learn to deal with it.
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[mod]Everyone please re-read the FAQ. It's linked at the top of every page on this site. I don't want this thread to descend into anarchy and end up with a lock, because that almost always represents a failure for all of us as a community.[/mod]
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Everyone please re-read the FAQ. It's linked at the top of every page on this site. I don't want this thread to descend into anarchy and end up with a lock, because that almost always represents a failure for all of us as a community.
sorry
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The problem with the whole thing, in my opinion, is that roleplaying sexual themes is so often simply cybering, or an excuse for doing so. I must not be the only one who's seen that time and time before in various mmo's. So when you want to roleplay this properly you are dealing with a lot of people with a biased view right from the start.
And then there is also those who have a boy/girl friend or spouse and really just want to avoid gaming in an environment that could get them in trouble. Not everyone is that understanding.
Lastly, I must say it gets a little bit silly when you open a few random bio's in an RP channel and see (alt) characters that often hardly show any involvement in RP -- like a bio -- beyond a rich and detailed explanation of their sexuality. And it seems to be all they do and talk about as well. Sure, you can have capsuleers who are sex addicts, but this example makes me rather think the player is. Or well, you know, it is compensation.
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Anyway, in a nutshell, people are going to wonder "This is a rich, detailed universe with plenty of fiction and storyline...of all the places from the backstory to make an RP channel from, and RP in, why are people RPing D/s?"
stuff like that.
Why not?
People RP killers, drug dealers, religious zealots, criminals etc etc. What's so different about this?
I think this sort of thing adds flavour to our dark Eve universe. Most of the roleplay I see in Eve is pretty stale from what I see on IGS and other IC channels. Well done Nikita for breaking out of the box. :-)
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The problem with the whole thing, in my opinion, is that roleplaying sexual themes is so often simply cybering, or an excuse for doing so. I must not be the only one who's seen that time and time before in various mmo's. So when you want to roleplay this properly you are dealing with a lot of people with a biased view right from the start.
And then there is also those who have a boy/girl friend or spouse and really just want to avoid gaming in an environment that could get them in trouble. Not everyone is that understanding.
Roleplaying sexuality is cybering? I really don't see what point your making here. If someone wants to roleplay a sexual situation then what else can they do. Whatever you want to call it doesn't really matter as it's still roleplaying at the end of the day.
And if you want to avoid those situations then don't go to bars with hookers. It works same in real life too. ;)
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It's an answer to the question posed at the outset of this thread, Aodha. Namely, "What is the issue with ingame Prostitution?"
It's all well and good to advise avoiding the things one doesn't like, but it is not relevant when the question of why one dislikes them is explicitly presented.
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So in your opinion this thread is just about about having issues with in-game matters and not how to solve those issues or to improve them or take them to a level of acceptability?
If this was the case then whats the point discussing anything here if it's only to tell everyone what we dont like about the subject at hand. I don't see your methods of discussion as being very constructive at all in this matter.
Myrhial made a point about peoples spouses/partners may not like it because they dont want to be gaming in an environment where this was a possible temptation. If thats the case then why allow your partner to be online at all. The internet has far worse content than anything that ever happened in Eve. My answer is clearly relevant to the topc.
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I'm going to get even more blunt and crude and say, how many of folks who engage in ERP get off to it?
The answer is that it is not just males, but females as well. This just ends up being cyb0rs, to me, and why it can get in the way of relationships...as I've mentioned elsewhere, I just wasn't comfortable with the woman I'd been in the process of forming a relationship with, ERPing with others, with the sort of knowledge that the guys she's engaging with may just very well be fapping behind the computer screen...that was one of the contributing factors to its explosive end, which you can read about elsewhere. That's a different discussion, but RP adds characterization, contributes to the ongoing story, and develops interaction. As soon as you begin ERPing, all that sort of RP in 'getting to know each others characters' disappear...it is just literally an exchange of sultry lines that are ultimately forgettable when you compare it to RPing, say, how a character is dealing with a loss, and how the other character helps them.
Anyway, the original issue, in bullet points...
- The hooker channel scares people off
- This is not great for leaving a good taste in people's mouths regarding their impression of the EVE RP community ("It's just full of kinksters")
- Therefore, it might be appropriate to market that channel as a 'niche, 18+' channel, and not bother to invite new RPers or what have you, only people who know what it is.
I mean I am a massive PF whore, considering the faction I RP has the least amount, I have to scrape the barrel for anything I can get...as such, my sort of issue in the back of my mind is that the channel isn't an "EVE RP" channel, but is simply a "pure RP" channel. Nothing really wrong with that, though.
But, I will say the whole "capsuleer slaves" business is a bit...well, considering CONCORD has slaves illegal, and we are all CONCORD-registered...
The core matter is that it is just offending other people's sense of immersion and believability.
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As soon as you begin ERPing, all that sort of RP in 'getting to know each others characters' disappear...
When I hook up irl, as soon as I start to sex a chica, the last thing I'm concerned with is how I got to know her.
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So in your opinion this thread is just about about having issues with in-game matters and not how to solve those issues or to improve them or take them to a level of acceptability?
If this was the case then whats the point discussing anything here if it's only to tell everyone what we dont like about the subject at hand. I don't see your methods of discussion as being very constructive at all in this matter.
Myrhial made a point about peoples spouses/partners may not like it because they dont want to be gaming in an environment where this was a possible temptation. If thats the case then why allow your partner to be online at all. The internet has far worse content than anything that ever happened in Eve. My answer is clearly relevant to the topc.
Fair point. Certainly it's relevant to the topic as a standalone, and the thread can include discussion about solving problems. However, it started out with Nikita asking why people take issue with this type of roleplaying. Myrhial's post seemed to me aimed solely at answering that. Posting 'ignore it' as what appeared to be a rebuttal to that is what I take issue with. If you weren't directing that at her specifically to that end, I apologize for misunderstanding.
Ignoring/avoiding something doesn't solve or improve it. It merely prevents it from arising. (One could fairly hold the belief that that is solving or improving it, so I realize this is a hopelessly meta semantics dispute. See following paragraph for why I think it's still worth posting.)
I'm not really sure this is an issue that can be solved or improved, ultimately. Sometimes understanding the best you can do. However, understanding is constructive in the sense that it tends to reduce destruction.
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I can understand, certainly, Myrhial's point. Really, it's an explanation of what others have mentioned before: it makes them feel "icky" OOCly. I respect that.
What I still don't understand is why it bothers someone when other people practice such things. We're talking about a channel that's not heavily marketed or publicized, though what little it does have should probably have some sort of warning attached.
Seri: CONCORD clearly doesn't deal with slave trading, particularly since the Amarrian Empire is one of the major members (and in fact one of the most powerful of the five member states). That's an issue left to individual factions.
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The problem with the whole thing, in my opinion, is that roleplaying sexual themes is so often simply cybering, or an excuse for doing so. I must not be the only one who's seen that time and time before in various mmo's. So when you want to roleplay this properly you are dealing with a lot of people with a biased view right from the start.
And then there is also those who have a boy/girl friend or spouse and really just want to avoid gaming in an environment that could get them in trouble. Not everyone is that understanding.
Roleplaying sexuality is cybering? I really don't see what point your making here. If someone wants to roleplay a sexual situation then what else can they do. Whatever you want to call it doesn't really matter as it's still roleplaying at the end of the day.
And if you want to avoid those situations then don't go to bars with hookers. It works same in real life too. ;)
I said it often is, not always, thus if you want to do it -without- it being cybering you have biased opposition to deal with. It was indeed an answer to the question, didn't read through the whole thread till afterwards. As for my personal opinion, do what you want in places where it belongs.
As for avoiding situations, sure you can do that. It's also what I do, but then I see these obvious cyber alts in the skyhook. I won't kick them for just being there, but on the other hand if a new person joins the channel and sees all those bios they might get the wrong idea and leave. Which would be ironic, because the skyhook is a bar without dancers.
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So what if people enjoy having internet sexytime. You are allowed to have fun in EVE.
If it somehow becomes a problem, you can deal with it in game in an IC fashion. Even in dirty skank hooker bars, in game and irl, common courtesy still prevails. People don't usually do it right out in the open, and if they do, the madam/bouncer/mama-san or whatever usually deals with it quickly.
I think some people in this community who have issues with this stuff just need to get laid (in-game). :P
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I think some people in this community who have issues with this stuff just need to get laid (in-game). :P
Ironically enough some that participate in cyber are not getting laid. Which is why I call it interactive porn. Nothing wrong with that, do as you please behind closed doors.
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Please don't generalize, particularly in an insulting way.
And that's an inaccurate generalization in any case.
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Hmm, perhaps a bit too generalized. Fixed previous post.
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The following post in this thread is all Mata's fault.
If you ERP in public, in front of my character, you may unwittingly unlock EVIL GRAELYN MODE.
Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly, and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to EVIL GRAELYN.
EVIL GRAELYN may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
If EVIL GRAELYN begins to smoke (or toke, God help you...), get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
Do Not Taunt EVIL GRAELYN.
Grae, I...I love you, man.
Wanna do it?
...Anyway.
The last place to gain a reputation as a skank-filled shithole and draw reactions on the magnitude of the one Seriphyn provided was La Maison, as it began to go through its death throes. The key thing to understand here was that it was only a couple of people (who'll go unnamed, but y'all can guess or remember) that screwed it up for everyone else. Including new people.
My advice to you, Nikita, is that if you want to do your thing with a bar full of (realistic) hookers, you tell everyone that's gonna go around looking for a John or getting suggestive that the minute things go past a PG rating, they damn well open a private chat and conduct negotiations there. AND ANYTHING FURTHER.
And if there's a channel where the actual sexing goes on, it be password-protected and invite-only, and the password be changed at LEAST monthly. And that all your 'girls' be characters on alt accounts. Preferably trial accounts; make it a bimonthly contest/requirement to make a new batch of hookers.
This minimizes risk for everyone involved, adds variety, and keeps the original venue from turning into a place where Ashar would go just to get a smoke and bitch about the coating of lady-spunk on all the hookahs. And how soggy all the chair-cushions were. Ugh.
As for what's wrong with prostitution in EVE, well, not a lot. Ever done anything you didn't want to do for ISK? Nice POS network there, you whore.
Plenty of perfectly respectable players and characters have tons of sex ingame, fade-to-black or not. In this respect, the difference - the ONLY difference - between Evanda Char and Revan Neferis is propriety.
The difference between late La Maison and other bars where people have initiated or carried out intimate acts, or D/s or whatever else, is propriety.
And for the love of god, sanitize your freaking roleplay venue until there's no chance it'll turn the new people away. We need them now more'n ever. Honestly, with a draw like hookers (with trial accounts, possibly even made-to-order hookers), you can stop worrying about low visitor numbers and just slap a password on the place or something. Or make a secondary channel that you mention in the primary channel's MotD, with a warning about explicit content and a password.
Now go and sin some more. With propriety.
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I think that the reason some might be defending prostitution here, is that you've all got a bit of a... glamorized view of it. Like, Pretty Woman/Confessions of a Call Girl glamorized.
Well.
This is prostitution.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/09/27/article-1315346-0B5F2A40000005DC-717_468x604.jpg)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1315346/X-Factor-2010-Chloe-Mafia-kicked-cocaine-snorting-revelations.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1315346/X-Factor-2010-Chloe-Mafia-kicked-cocaine-snorting-revelations.html)
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Dear god, what happened to her face? ... Besides cocaine.
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Without knowing or saying anything about the story you linked, I'm very aware of the implications of RL prostitution and its effects on the individuals involved (directly and indirectly), and I referenced it above as something that need not impact RP unless one wishes to deal with that in their arc.
Similarly, murder, fraud, piracy, and larceny have terrible consequences. We all recognize that, even though we might love heist films. We recognize that everything that happens in EVE is a fantasy.
It's only when some folks lose sight of that last bit, in any direction, that we start to have serious issues.
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I still believe this is about the way in which it is expressed.
Everybody is fine with me being a slaver, but if I start to haunt channels while constantly torturing, whipping and beating up slaves in gory explicit scenes, then yeah, I will certainly expect me from being asked to leave many channels.
Some interactions tend to make people more comfortable than others. Some people also explicitly RP stuff in public meant to upset people OOC. Sex (even moreso than prostitution) is one of those subjects, so tread with care.
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Merdaneth, I'd think that a more direct comparison would be if you had a channel of your own (or for your corp) in which other Amarrians could come purchase slaves. They'd then perhaps manhandle them a bit back onto their ships and continue that RP in a private channel.
Frankly, from my time in other games, I can't deal with slavery RP in anything past the most abstract, and even then from the "good" side[1]. Freeing slaves or transporting refugees is about as close as I can get, because of my own views on the matter.
But at the same time, I don't think any less of the players who engage in that RP. I've absolutely no doubt about the fact that they're not actually endorsing RL slavery. It's just something I personally avoid.
[1]: Not intended to start a conversation in this thread about whether Amarrian slavery is evil.
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Everybody is fine with me being a slaver, but if I start to haunt channels while constantly torturing, whipping and beating up slaves in gory explicit scenes, then yeah, I will certainly expect me from being asked to leave many channels.
TBH, The slavers were one of the reasons I stopped going to the Last Gate.
And the whips bother me less than the compliant slaves that think that it's right that they be a slave. Especially when the slave owner tries to tell me that there's nothing wrong with it, cos their slave is happy.
The psychological chains disturb me OOC, and I'm not allowed to shoot them in the face IC. So I avoid them.
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Without knowing or saying anything about the story you linked, I'm very aware of the implications of RL prostitution and its effects on the individuals involved (directly and indirectly), and I referenced it above as something that need not impact RP unless one wishes to deal with that in their arc.
Similarly, murder, fraud, piracy, and larceny have terrible consequences. We all recognize that, even though we might love heist films. We recognize that everything that happens in EVE is a fantasy.
It's only when some folks lose sight of that last bit, in any direction, that we start to have serious issues.
Hmm.
What I say next, may very well get me banned from these fine forums. But it is my opinion. The thing of it is, murder, fraud, piracy and larceny DO INDEED have terrible consequences. However, these four crimes, are crimes that can be thematically justified in some ways. Murder? Can be justified via revenge. Can be justified by psychopathy. Can be justified by politics. "The Amarr murdered my parents, therefore I am a Minmatar terrorist now." Fraud, piracy, larceny? "I'm a corrupt corporate official/amoral space pirate/corp thief, it's what I do to make a living." Point is, if the person has an interesting backstory, these crimes can be justified morally.
What about a hooker in the capsuleer universe? How does a capsuleer hooker justify these things? "I have access to the most advanced technology ever produced by the empires of mankind; I am effectively immortal, able to travel the galaxy, marshal fleets of countless soldiers to do my bidding... and I will use these infinite abilities and assets... to sell my gender-non-specific fuckhole (or fuckbat) to strangers."
Doesn't that strike you as odd?
I mean, sure, let's say there's "capsuleer prostitutes" that only cater to capsuleers, that cost millions of ISK per hour. but a capsuleer can earn millions of ISK per hour by merely twitching a finger (no foreplay jokes pls.) A capsuleer can pretty much employ an entire planet to be his adoring fuckslaves, if he so chooses. It's not like the neural plugs add 10% more fuckability or sexiness.
For a capsuleer... there is no justifiable reason to involve oneself with prostitution, on either the hooker (selling) or the john (buying) side of the fence. Capsuleers are gods. They are accustomed to getting things for free; the things that "little people" have to pay for. Capsuleers probably avoid the common-population areas of space stations, because if they were to "mingle with the poors," they'd have the opposite sex hurling themselves at them for a chance that their miserable, planet-bound offspring may share a few precious genes with a capsuleer. That is, when they aren't trying to bludgeon us with pipes.
Anyway, I'm real drunk, but the point I'm trying to make is... anyone capable of *roleplaying in Eve,* is a player, and thus a capsuleer. If said player decided to sell his/her slimy/shitty orifices for money... it would kind of be like Gordon Gekko from Wall Street renting out his dick for $100 to strangers, in order to add tthat trick money to his $100,000,000 coffer.
Capsuleers can pretty much have their pick of the litter. Why would they need to pay?
Hookers are an interactive hole you pay to jerk off in. Nothing less, and certainly nothing more.
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You are assuming the capsuleer prostitute’s motivations are ISK alone. Maybe having others pay her for sex turns her on and she just wants her kinks too.
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I'm real drunk, but...
To paraphrase the FAQ, this phrase is a reliable indicator that the writer is about to say something that he wants to be true.
Right now we're talking about one bar with two prostitute-capsuleers in it, one of which has been described to me by the player as socially retarded [sic].
Here is a map of human sexuality:
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2396/1269204978264.th.png) (http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2396/1269204978264.png)
There's enough room at the inn for some people to make it into the capsuleer class that want to sexually service people for money. And we're still talking about one bar in the whole of the cluster. Throw out your realism card and ask for another - it won't do you any good in this little universe.
This was bound to happen, and is always bound to happen, in MMOs. Posting pictures of Katie Price won't really affect the degree to which it's bound to happen.
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In a RP sense (again, I want to keep this separate from the RL sense), though, capsuleer courtesans don't hurt anyone else. That might be different if the sex workers were, say, actual slaves, and I admit that I'm confused about the case in Stars End, but in general, a capsuleer hooking doesn't have the same effect on others that blowing up their ships or taking their stuff does.
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You are assuming the capsuleer prostitute’s motivations are ISK alone. Maybe having others pay her for sex turns her on and she just wants her kinks too.
This.
Lot's of assumptions being made here that prostitution is unwanted by those who partake. Yes, some woman may use it to help them get out of a financial mess and be therefore forced into taking that option (this doesn't mean prostitution is bad, the situation is bad) but there are others who enjoy it as a career.
Who are we to say that someone who enjoys sex cannot make a career out of it if they so choose? If it doesn't hurt anyone and both parties are happy with it then its their freedom of choice to make that decision.
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Who are we to say that someone who enjoys sex cannot make a career out of it if they so choose? If it doesn't hurt anyone and both parties are happy with it then its their freedom of choice to make that decision.
THIS
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
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I think it's less the fact that people have an issue with ingame prostitution, and more the fact that when your bar was opened people liked the concept and expected it to be a pretty cool place to hang out. (frankly i thought the setting and design was awesome :D)
Sadly, they were then slapped in the face with a PRICELIST for fifty different flavours of being banged, of all things in the MOTD, and an open RP circlejerk in the channel. A situation that I'm reliably told, some of your own corp members were pretty fucking embarrassed about, and considered leaving the corp, with good reason.
Some people simply aren't into that kind of shit, so that's why a lot of people have just walked away from the channel. People want a place to hang out, not a place where they'll be propositioned for sex every ten minutes and have to listen to stories of who's been banging who's ass the night before.
Sorry for being so direct, but that's the fact of the matter. If people want to do lesbian BDSM slave cyber, then they should keep it to private channels when their bar has been branded as a public place.
You're taking a hammering not because of the fact you're doing it, but the fact your corp members and their harem are forcing it in everyone's face who comes into the channel. That's why people aren't really taking to the channel outside the small group of people involved in all the cyber.
Again, apologies for the directness, but that seems to be the main issue from speaking to a lot of people.
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I think it's less the fact that people have an issue with ingame prostitution, and more the fact that when your bar was opened people liked the concept and expected it to be a pretty cool place to hang out. (frankly i thought the setting and design was awesome :D)
Sadly, they were then slapped in the face with a PRICELIST for fifty different flavours of being banged, of all things in the MOTD, and an open RP circlejerk in the channel. A situation that I'm reliably told, some of your own corp members were pretty fucking embarrassed about, and considered leaving the corp, with good reason.
Some people simply aren't into that kind of shit, so that's why a lot of people have just walked away from the channel. People want a place to hang out, not a place where they'll be propositioned for sex every ten minutes and have to listen to stories of who's been banging who's ass the night before.
Sorry for being so direct, but that's the fact of the matter. If people want to do lesbian BDSM slave cyber, then they should keep it to private channels when their bar has been branded as a public place.
You're taking a hammering not because of the fact you're doing it, but the fact your corp members and their harem are forcing it in everyone's face who comes into the channel. That's why people aren't really taking to the channel outside the small group of people involved in all the cyber.
Again, apologies for the directness, but that seems to be the main issue from speaking to a lot of people.
No, its fine. I completely agree with you, it was waaaaaaay over the top at first. WAAAAAAAAAAY over the top. This has since been corrected, and in fact, most stuff that goes on in the bar has little to do with the stuff people take issue with. I'll point out again that its a frontier saloon style place, with all the connotations thereof, and some bad crap does happen in there occasionally, but its nowhere near as bad as it started out. The issue is that I'm getting flak for not completely shutting it down, and I'm being told that any prostitution or anything, no matter how private its kept, is wrong and bad and refuse to go there. I dunno if its just the lingering effects of the initial problems or what, but....
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I think people should pretty much just mind their own business.
If some players want to rp sex in any fashion or form, if they want to do it for free or get paid ISK for it, then that is their business.
I don't have a problem with it. It doesn't affect my RP or my life, so why would I care?
If people don't like the prostitution then don't go into the bar, it's pretty simple. If that's your thing, go have fun.
It isn't my place to preach to anyone what to rp or how they should do it. It isn't my responsibility to worry about what someone's spouse or gf/bf might feel about rp and it shouldn't be anyone elses either.
Personally if I went into the channel unaware of what it is, saw the MOTD and it stressed me, I'd just leave. I don't see what the big deal is.
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I don't see what the big deal is.
PEOPLE ARE DOIN IT WRONG!!!