Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 14 Sep 2010, 19:02
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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384197&page=1
Was fun until accusing people of godmodding went around.
I might have done better to have posted it on EVE Fiction, though it's not the first time I have posted an SDII "Freedom Nazi" post, it's only now I'm being pushed around because of it. The idea is that it's basically a "player-made news item". It's about as much godmodding as writing a short story about the SDII hunting down some corrupt politician.
I am really being given a hard time about this, so people care to share their thoughts?
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I think what people may have trouble with is that it is something you are saying an NPC organization is doing being presented as fact.
Other people have as much right to say it didn't happen as you do to say it did happen.
It only becomes god-modding, I would think, if people say it didn't happen, and you tell those players that their characters have to believe it did happen because you say so. Really ineffectual god modding, I suppose. If you stick to your character claiming things, well. He can claim whatever he wants, right? Doesn't mean anyone has to believe it is true, or agree.
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I think what people may have trouble with is that it is something you are saying an NPC organization is doing being presented as fact.
Other people have as much right to say it didn't happen as you do to say it did happen.
It only becomes god-modding, I would think, if people say it didn't happen, and you tell those players that their characters have to believe it did happen because you say so. Really ineffectual god modding, I suppose. If you stick to your character claiming things, well. He can claim whatever he wants, right? Doesn't mean anyone has to believe it is true, or agree.
About as much as Lai Dai Infinity Systems is affliated with Lai Dai, and so on from there...
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I think you're painting some people's beloved Federation as being bad guys, and some people don't like that. Only CCP are allowed to badmouth <insert beloved faction here>.
That said, I read it as "General Inhonores shows off something that he's been involved with" and in that light, I had no problems with it. You're owning the approbation or respect around the actions. You have in-game influence enough to get things like this to happen (of course, you might end up with the secretary disavowing all knowledge of your activities...)
If you were saying "This is nothing to do with me, but it's something the Feds have been up to, honest" then I could see people thinking it was god-modding, since you're saying "this is how the world is" because it matches your view of things, regardless of whether it matches what other people's view of things is.
CCP, being in a somewhat privileged position, get to do that when they feel like it. Players, not so much, unless they can get everyone to buy into it. The definition of god-modding is telling other people how the world is, rather than getting them to agree how the world is.
IGS is a little different from the fiction section, since it is by default actually happening in the game universe. Either it's true, or it's fake that was really broadcast. I can ignore as much of the fiction as I feel like and nobody cares, IGS sort of requires people to at least accept that someone has broadcast something, even if they think it's fake.
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I think there are some differences here, Seriphyn.
For example, (though in the case of Lai Dai it wouldn't be entirely out of character) LDIS isn't claiming that Lai Dai is hunting down and executing dissenters. They aren't claiming to have specific examples,a nd video of it. They have, to my knowledge, never claimed to have access to specific, confidential, internal Lai Dai information.
Like I said, you can absolutely have your character say that he does, or post things as facts.
What you can't do is make everyone else's character believe him.
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In some ways the response from others in that tread would mostly be hillarious if not so damn sad.
Especially Soter. "He's lying, this never took place publicly!" WTF man? Maybe you did not like it; maybe it rubbed you the wrong way, maybe you don't like the idea of the SDII - who are effectively a BLACK POLICE FORCE - doing things like this, but it can damn well happen. You could have talked to Seriphyn about it, you know. Worked any disagreements over 'would the Fed do something like this and how likely is it' out in an ooc convo or even an IC convo that explained things.
But no, now we have one guy claiming it happened (under entierly realistic terms even) and another who show up suddenly to claim it's all a lie. THAT is what I call God-modding - "He's wrong and his make-belief event NEVER TOOK PLACE, becasue I SAID SO." You can't both be right IC and thus one is forced to bite the bullet and look like a delusional idiot in public. By opinion and popular view-point from the Federal players Inhonores will have to bite the bullet because the rest can't imagine their pristine snow-white Fed as anything but snow-white with perfect morals.
Great job, thank you so much. I'd say to all the nay-sayers go read up on the SDII corp and the Fed's current history. They are as grey as any other and this stuff could well happen - if people are happy about it or not is entierly their problem.
God-modding goes both ways - Seriphyn is entierly right here, LDIS can claim to have shares sold to/given to whomever NPC corp they please - can anyone PROVE IT in-game? No. Can LDIS actaully DO IT in-game? No - it's a make-belief game based on their idea of plausible events, people will have ot trust their word.
Can the freedom-fighters be trusted to have ACTUALLY freed the slaves? Yes, from an IC view-point, because in-game they can only trash the slaves or keep them. It's the same thing here.
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I don't know if I fully agree with you BloodBird; to an extent, both players are god-modding.
Seriphyn has made the claim that an NPC organisation has executed some people. There is no in-game mechanism for this, so the claim has no OOC veracity.
Soter has said that he has a line to the FIO and that they repudiate the whole business, also not possible in game.
Seriphyn has made the claim that branches of the Federal Government execute prisoners without trial by hanging. The impact of this on the RP community is that we either have to accept that these things happen, despite the fact it could be repudiated by PF or that we might not see the Federation that way, or we can reject it, sometimes by using the same technique employed in the original post, the appeal to authority. Yes, as BloodBird said, you can't both be right IC (Though I can think of a few ways, Federal disinformation for one), but is the answer that the first person to make the claim that can't be disproven automatically right? In that case, I am an Idama. And the Prince of Harroule. And Rouvenor's descendant. It's all stupid, obviously.
Either it was okay for both of them, or it was wrong for both of them. I'm fine with either.
Stitcher made a valuable contribution to the whole business with his link, grounding the discussion at least in verified fact.
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I agree to a degree, Mammal. You see, he did not say they were hanged without proof, he said they had "been arrested and detained with varying levels of evidence that incriminates them as those who would cooperate with Nation invaders to see the enslavement of their fellow, free citizens to the Sansha menace." thus implying (to me atl) that the evidence varies - and it does, as he further listed the number of charges for the four, and those did vary greatly.
If they were indeed innocent or not, hanged without trial or not, is not directly shown, merely the accusations, the implied evidence and the hangings themselves. And at this point, yes, it's up to everyone to decide for themselves if their char's believe the events took place or not, and decide as well if they believe they were hanged without evidence or not.
And now we have the sad facts presented - various different character stumbling over each-other's claims either claiming the event did or did not happen based on their own available "intel" - ergo their own private opinions. It's such a massive immersion breaker, though Stitcher's post did help alot by underlying the proved PF source of arguments for the idea that this can in fact happen and is not to far-fetched, not at all really.
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I think neither of them is godmodding.
We have characters saying things.
They can say whatever they want. Nothing says that other characters have to believe them.
It would be godmodding if they were claiming that they had an impact on other characters. If Seriphyn claimed that he was having Soter arrested or something. As it is, it's just unverifiable things that their characters are claiming. Other people can call them on it, or not.
There might be a conversation to be had about whether such tactics are effective ( I feel they probably aren't), but I don't think it is godmodding.
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You know what Silver? Your right. I totally missed that fact (likely due to sleep-depravation, but I'll fix that VERY soon) and your right, neither is god-modding in the sense of the word's use.
The IC question now ofc is who is full of bullshit and who is not; because as previously mentioned both can't be entierly right... oh wait, yes they can, but it can't be made very 'public' - Seriphyn might have made the executions public as a mistake and Soter's applying damage-control. Or the other way around, Soter's damage-control is based on previously stated 'orders' not to let the shadow-war on the Fed's enemies become very public, but he was not notified about the decitition to make this particular case public as a warning.
Either way, it's a mess. People are making contradicting statements in public and the whole thing has become somewhat bizzare.
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Which is why you never make these kinds of things public in the first place, maybe?
regarding the FIO angle, Soter does have a 9.5 with them. I can use it, in a way, to RP his sourcing, to highlight something that is false.
However, I don't really understand the effort to puppeteer NPC entities like the SDII into doing unverifiable acts in the public domain.
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I think that painting in the grey areas where CCP hasn't given us anything can have value and contribute a lot to RP, depending on how it's done.
What represents an effective way of doing that, that other people will be willing to be involved with, and that will be successful is both variable and open to debate.
I think it depends a lot on how it's done, and how other people react to it.
That's why they're grey areas, I guess. :D
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Thirding the emphasis on the fact that nothing here counts as god-moding. (ONE D, DAMN YOU.)
Still, if you think someone is taking excessive liberties with the PF, taking liberties of your own to say "NUH-UH" IC and in public is a ridiculously excessive scorched-earth way to deal with it.
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Although I don't think its productive to have someone come in and say it did'nt happen, you should always prepare for the fact it might happen... And I don't see anything wrong with it (someone coming in to discount your event) ..., BUT.. I would use this as an opportunity to create a better OOC/Collaborative relationship with other federation RP based organizations, so you can cooperate together in future, then compete or discount each other cause of disagreements of views of how the federation should be portrayed
Finally, I will admit, I'm not really a fan of Eve RPers announcing NPC based events/news on IGS. If it had involved Sansha capsuleers and some "collaborators" then it would be more relevant. I just think this was on course for such a problem.
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I reported it, it belongs in EVE Fiction, not on IGS.
I will NOT however post a reply to call you a godmoding wanker, that is even worse than posting player created fiction on IGS, and I can't stand people who jump in and say proof or STFU in threads like this.
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god-moding. (ONE D, DAMN YOU.)
This. Oh, so emphatically this.
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Seri
I think that you as a capsuleer being part of the trial and/or execution of individuals has some details that cannot be sustained, not saying it is not possible, just that has some odd element to it
You could have done a very similar thing, indicating that you working pñersonally in the investigation and acting on behalf of the SDII or FIO, delivered sustantial evidence to convict and execute the listed individuals under federal law.
However, i despise the general response the thread has received.
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I ran out of character space actually...
Should have said Seriphyn helped recover these individuals...that is certainly 100% plausible, given missions handed out by the FIO (they have an 'Internal Security' division, in fact).
The focus is, however, the fictional quality, not the fact that Seriphyn may or may not have participated in it. The only connection is the person who posted it, but that's a connection enough for most so >_>
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The best roleplaying in that thread was from Demented Pilot.
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Meh - I liked it.
It was the first thread in weeks that I actually felt some compunction to reply to.
In that case, I am the Prince of Harroule. It's all stupid, obviously.
That one is stupid because everyone knows Harroule is a Republic.
Regarding the FIO angle, Soter does have a 9.5 with them. I can use it, in a way, to RP his sourcing, to highlight something that is false.
I'm interested in how other people feel about this statement. Saxon is over a 9 in standings with Fed Navy. And he's over 8 with Senate and approaching 8 with Supreme Court. I've alluded to his connections with these organizations, but never made a direct connection (other than one short story where a Senator visits Saxon at the ILF's cultural center).
I think it's safe to say someone with such a high standing would obviously have connections, but is there a consensus on a safe way to include it in one's RP?
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I believe that standings of that sort factored into Seri's original decision to leave EM and start his own corp with an affiliation to the Fed.
And while I rarely talk about it publicly (for reasons that should be fairly clear once you see them), I certainly consider Casi's standings to be more or less IC.
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The best roleplaying in that thread was from Demented Pilot.
This.
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I'll post something about the definition of god-moding shortly in a separate thread.
I'm considered fairly heretical among RP-ers because I don't even consider PF as leading, if only for the reason that I have neither read all PF, certainly not memorized all the PF I read, don't consider all the PF I read sources that are publicly available, truthful or without room for interpretation.
The fallacy here is that one needs to read and memorize all the PF and accept it as 100% truthful to be able to RP in EVE or risk to be called out as 'a liar' by those who have read and memorized (etc.) some piece of PF.
In this case, Seriphyn's post threads dangerous ground because his interpretation is wide in scope, some distance from his own character, collides with other people's interpretation of the game world and provides few escape hatches.
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I think what people may have trouble with is that it is something you are saying an NPC organization is doing being presented as fact.
Other people have as much right to say it didn't happen as you do to say it did happen.
It only becomes god-modding, I would think, if people say it didn't happen, and you tell those players that their characters have to believe it did happen because you say so. Really ineffectual god modding, I suppose. If you stick to your character claiming things, well. He can claim whatever he wants, right? Doesn't mean anyone has to believe it is true, or agree.
About as much as Lai Dai Infinity Systems is affliated with Lai Dai, and so on from there...
Unlike some other corporations we don't claim any real special recognition or input from Lai Dai. We're more like Lai Dai groupees than anything. And to be honest I've always had problems with us claiming as much of a connection as we do. I felt the same way about CAIN claiming to have any special privliages from the Caldari Navy that any other corporation with high standings with them couldn't also get.
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That one is stupid because everyone knows Harroule is a Republic.
It's a ceremonial title. Like the Prince of Wales.
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Still, if you think someone is taking excessive liberties with the PF, taking liberties of your own to say "NUH-UH" IC and in public is a ridiculously excessive scorched-earth way to deal with it.
That.
I for one really liked it.
Until the usual situations arose.
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I worked it into my roleplay... and actually, I wonder if CCP was anticipating someone was going to create a sort of event Seriphyn created. Could have happened from any of the four factions, as the whole event is litterally at some level, a witch hunt.
In any case, it fills in the blanks.
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You can determine the actions of your own character.
You can to a certain (though lesser) extent determine the actions of your character's crew or family.
Anything else and you're getting into the realms of godmoding.
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You can determine the actions of your own character.
You can to a certain (though lesser) extent determine the actions of your character's crew or family.
Anything else and you're getting into the realms of godmoding.
Why can you determine actions of your crew and family and not other NPCs?
Why a restriction to actions only? Is it never Godmoding to describe things? Or can you describe just your own clothes and those of your servants?
What about you describing that you are wearing an indestructable armored suit? How about your actions making you leap tall buildings in a single bound. Godmoding y/n?
In fact, if I say my character fought against the Elder invasion fleet, it is highly likely I will be accused of Godmoding even though I am only describing my actions, and those actions are well inside the realm of game and world logic. However no player will believe I did fight that fleet because they know OOC that it is not be possible because there wasn't an actual in-game battle of the Elders and the Amarr fleet, even though there is no way to prove or disprove my claim.
Obviously, there is a lot more to Godmoding than just what you mentioned, any time you make an interpretation that is not directly verifiable through indepedent in-game mechanics you are Godmoding. If you are called out for 'making stuff up' depends on a lot of other things and I gave examples of this in the other thread.
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You can determine the actions of your own character.
You can to a certain (though lesser) extent determine the actions of your character's crew or family.
Anything else and you're getting into the realms of godmoding.
Why can you determine actions of your crew and family and not other NPCs?
Because when I RP the actions of other NPCs, other NPCs includes your crew and your family. Are you hapy with me deciding what your crew has been up to?
The only exception that I can think of is using the actions of NPCs to explain something in general terms that has actually happened.
It's essentially a question of distance, as per your own thread on this subject. The closer the NPCs are to you, then the less likely it is to be godmoding. Family and crew are pretty darned close to you.
Why a restriction to actions only? Is it never Godmoding to describe things? Or can you describe just your own clothes and those of your servants?
In general, you should only be going around making original descriptions of things that your character could directly control, or which can be reasonably inferred from existing canon.
What about you describing that you are wearing an indestructable armored suit? How about your actions making you leap tall buildings in a single bound. Godmoding y/n?
I'm reasonably certain that in Eve the technology exists to leap over tall buildings, especially on low-grav worlds. The key thing here is: does it go against the spirit or the letter of the PF?
In fact, if I say my character fought against the Elder invasion fleet, it is highly likely I will be accused of Godmoding even though I am only describing my actions, and those actions are well inside the realm of game and world logic. However no player will believe I did fight that fleet because they know OOC that it is not be possible because there wasn't an actual in-game battle of the Elders and the Amarr fleet, even though there is no way to prove or disprove my claim.
If you say that your character fought against the Elder Fleet, then you're also saying that the Elder Fleet fought against you. In other words, you're trying to determine the actions of NPCs.
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Because when I RP the actions of other NPCs, other NPCs includes your crew and your family. Are you hapy with me deciding what your crew has been up to?
Yes I am, as long as it is consistent with my image of what my crew has been up to. If you describe that one of my crew is actually a spy of your own, and I like your story, I would completely go along with it.
Are the people guarding PIE complexes yours to act with, are they shared by the directorate, can all PIE members have these guards parade around. What if the PIE honorary guards described by one PIE member don't look at all as you imagined them? Conflict right there. Distance and ownership are part of the Godmoding equation, but certainly not the only parts.
The only exception that I can think of is using the actions of NPCs to explain something in general terms that has actually happened.
Can I decide for a slave of mine, a former slave of mine? If you read my other thread, you see that distance is a determining factor. The more tenious the relation between the NPC and yourself, the more dangerous it is. I can post an interview between an ex-slave of mine and an interviewer I hired without problem. The distance is not that far. However, as soon as the slave tells he is now in your employ, I breach the line of ownership, and even though the distance would normally be close enough, it isn't once the NPC is in your sphere of influence.
In general, you should only be going around making original descriptions of things that your character could directly control, or which can be reasonably inferred from existing canon.
This reasonable inference thing is a difficult issue, since reasonable inferences are different for everyone. I reasonably inferred that the Amarr Empire would have laws dealing with slaves, Lallara inferred that concerning slaves it was basically 'anything goes' for example. Both are reasonable but conflicting inferences. My character doesn't control NPCs, nor does he control clothes and equipment, but still I as a player are allowed to control them to a certain extent, moderated by the dimension I said. If I make my clothes up from a ultra-rare material (according to say PF) then it would likely not be accepted.
I'm reasonably certain that in Eve the technology exists to leap over tall buildings, especially on low-grav worlds. The key thing here is: does it go against the spirit or the letter of the PF?
I completely agree. That is why I said, you must look at more than just if you character can 'control' it, or restrict things to your character only. Not everyone has read all PF, and certainly not everyone agrees on the spirit of PF. Hence you must look at it more broadly, there is no scientific litmus test that can tell you of you are godmoding or not. There is no clear barrier. It is fluent.
If you say that your character fought against the Elder Fleet, then you're also saying that the Elder Fleet fought against you. In other words, you're trying to determine the actions of NPCs.
I can say I shot at the Elders, I can say I shot at you, I can say I shot at one of my slaves, I can say I shot at some Sansha ships. Only the last one can be verified by in-game mechanics, the rest needs to be accepted by other players. Acceptance of my imaginings depends on the dimensions I mentioned in ym other post. Shooting you is a bad idea (ownership), shooting Elders (scope and RL sensibilities) is also not a good idea, shooting an unnamed slave of my own: very likely no problem.
I would also have no problem with freedom fighters descending to a planet, shooting some guards and escaping with the slaves, as long as the raid involved a handful of deaths (scope), and didn't escape with my own slaves without agreeing with me (ownership) and didn't employ an instant cure for vitoc addiction (game logic and sensibility).
Seriphyn's problem in his post is primarly one of scope (high impact political executions), one of distance (executred NPCs have little relation to his character) and a conflict in game world interpretation and ownership (some Gallente players thinking that faction would never do that).
Coupled with these issues, I would have suggested to first drop some rumors he heard from one of his contacts of traitors being scheduled for executions (baby steps, someone told me!), and determine the reaction of his (player) peers. Then, depending on their reaction, coordinate the final post with them, perhaps turning it into a rumor he heard about the execution or that he got it from a blurry tape given to him.
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[mod]Please keep the FAQ in mind when commenting. That's true at all times, but especially in this thread. The answer to "So I can't disagree with anyone's RP?" may be of particular interest. That's not directed at any one person, but please tread carefully.[/mod]
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The rule I attempt to follow when god-moding (e.g. Professional Misjudgments (http://www.omertasyndicate.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2100&start=1)) is 'try to let as few people as possible know about it'.
It's worked for me for years.
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I thought the thread was very well-written, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. The Federation is a bit outside of my RP sphere of knowledge, so I can't comment on how well it jives with current Federation politics.
Might have been less of an issues if it was only your corporation and character going vigilante with the executions, and would have kept the same spirit of the thread perhaps.
I certainly like the idea though, but its a thin line when you make life/death decisions for large NPC groups.
I'd love to have King Khanid give Silas a medal and have the Royal Khanid Navy endorse our security work in the Kingdom but it would be stretching it quite a bit. I think you can rely on standings a bit to have an NPC group support your actions but it's a very thin rope there to pull on too hard.
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Okay, so I had a crazy idea and typed up a follow up to Seri's post and had it all ready to submit and then backed out at the last minute. Why?
Well it was pretty much a hijack and as God-modding as anything else we've been talking about the last few days.
I didn't want it to go to waste, however, and so I threw it onto my blog (Which is Saxon's in-character and publicly available musings so feel free to mine for RP hooks).
If anyone wants to see it you can find it at:
http://freeintaki.blogspot.com/2010/09/disturbing-news.html
Also: Boma, I was the one who reported your post as OOC. Sorry.
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Okay, so I had a crazy idea and typed up a follow up to Seri's post and had it all ready to submit and then backed out at the last minute. Why?
Well it was pretty much a hijack and as God-modding as anything else we've been talking about the last few days.
I didn't want it to go to waste, however, and so I threw it onto my blog (Which is Saxon's in-character and publicly available musings so feel free to mine for RP hooks).
If anyone wants to see it you can find it at:
http://freeintaki.blogspot.com/2010/09/disturbing-news.html
Also: Boma, I was the one who reported your post as OOC. Sorry.
Totaly acceptable as I was completely shithoused and it WAS indeed OOC ;)
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Okay, so my post DID get condemned to the catacombs. Should have known waiting for Niki's response and replying with the constructive bit after that would be a bad move.
Anyhow, for those who wish to see it it's here, along with Niki's reply: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1206.0
When I mailed Seri and Niki in-game asking them to read and post in reply to this I did get Niki's reply saying she had. At that time however RL slapped me and I never got around to answering fast enough. I'll do that now however. As before, I'll try (harder this time) to remain somewhat cool about it all.
First off, Niki's reply.
Frankly, while I won't comment on your talk with Seri about this (I were not there after all) him saying that an infiltration is unlikely and opting for an all-out assault is by far the most likely scenario. Why?
Imagine:
The Angel Cartel want to infiltrate the SDII's station holding Myxx's family. It's an SDII station, it's supposed to be secret thus safe, and it's location is a very secure secret. Firstly to get this intel is hard enough, upon doing so however the likelihood that the SDII will NOT realize there has been a breach of security is extremely unlikely. More likely is that the station and possibly any and all other locations compromised are set to high alert and added security arrives. At that point actually going in quietly will be next to impossible. Best option now would be an all-out assault, gunning your way in.
Let's assume however that the location is known and you do in fact manage to keep this fact from your opponents. You sneak a team in. Let's further assume that you do manage to get this team past all the SDII operatives guarding the station, and that none raises questions as to why that suitcase of yours is shielded from scanning. And that none inspects it by hand. And that none raises questions to why you bring 250 marines to a station with 50-70 SDII operatives at max, and why they are actually cleared in.
The moment fighting begun all cover would be blown. Whatever HQ section the station have would likely instantly close and lock any and all blast-doors securing the station, notify their space-born security and call in back-up. You will have to fight the defenders and any and all possible automated defenses, and make holes in walls and doors to move around and get out. This requires even more heavy gear that you also somehow got past customs. Or you will have to have some reason why the SDII should trust someone among 250 new FDU soldiers into their HQ section where they can off the operators and assume control of the station's security. Also you have to have a reason for why these 250 people disperse to all sections of said station, I don't think “adding security” will do much good – they were after all quite secure already. Finally, assuming you do manage to make it to Myxx's folks, dump the now armed nuke and start to work your way back, every guy you bring is one more possible casualty. Getting 250 people in and even more out with no losses is still extremely unlikely. And then, you will have to get past the ships outside.
Two reasons say they will be ready for you – the station is either attacked and notify them of this, or the station goes silent and don't respond to hails. Something is wrong, and that new ship that recently arrived fall under suspicion. For this reason too an assault is the most likely option – after all you will likely have to fight your way clear of the station with your cargo secure anyway.
So, let's imagine:
The Angel Cartel want to infiltrate the SDII's station holding Myxx's family. It's an SDII station, it's supposed to be secret thus safe, and it's location is a very secure secret. Firstly to get this intel is hard enough, upon doing so however the likelihood that the SDII will NOT realize there has been a breach of security is extremely unlikely. More likely is that the station and possibly any and all other locations compromised are set to high alert and added security arrives. At this point an assault on one location is practically the only logical option.
Now, Seri said (according to you, Niki) that you should “march thousands of troops through it and kill off tens of thousands of civilians” - I do not agree to the numbers (though this might be your angry exaggeration speaking) but this scenario is not very unlikely. No matter how awesome the Cartel's soldiers are the SDII prefer quality over quantity and it is their home-turf, their facility and their security with only they know how many secure doors, automated sentry-points, security Androids popping out of walls with automatic weapons, their hangers possibly filled with mechanized hardware loaded with anti-infantry weaponry and so on – fighting them will not be easy no matter how you look at it and to assault this you have to be prepared, and casualties are a given. The only question is how many.
On the topic of civilians, there being any of them in the station depends on how the SDII operate. We know for a fact (from epic mission arcs or COSMOS missions, I recall not witch) that the RSS keep the families of their operative in safe locations in their own dead-space locations, because the last thing anyone dealing with organized criminals like the Angels want, is to have a call from some guy with a gun to his daughter's head. Ergo the SDII likely operative on very similar terms regarding their family. We do not know yet (atl I don't) where the SDII keep their families or if they share location with any holding/interrogation facilities. If they do, or some do, it's not to far-fetched that the SDII have some civilian populations in their stations. These are the people that Myxx and you have sworn to mass-murder, along with the rest of the Federation's people.
Killing civilians is something you have said you'd do and something the Angel Cartel do on a daily basis (And likely something the SDII do whenever they 'need' to, as well), so if you don't like the idea of your men gunning down women and children then sorry, you picked the wrong faction to join.
So, let's say there are civilians on the station. If so that's another reason the SDII would fiercely oppose any infiltration or invasion – their families are quite literally on the line, another reason your infiltration would likely fail if you tried it. Another reason, I bet, why Seri said it might be the best option – it sure is a considerably more realistic one.
Moving on... you need to assault this place, right? It's very hard, but nothing is impossible. Let's try this:
Your new masters in Curse agree that Myxx's family must be extracted – a capsuleer is a very nice asset and to have her impeded from doing anything because her family is held by the Federals is not good. They grant you a large strike force and a good number of ships to deal with this – we all know the Angels have no lack of ship-based hardware. None at all.
You acquire the intel on where the exact station holding Myxx's folks are, and move in to deal with it as soon as you can. If you don't, the SDII will likely find out that you know and have time to act on the intel: locking down the station and possibly calling in the Federal navy or atl a huge division of their own forces to defend it, making any assault extremely hard and costly, far more so than striking instantly. Of course, if you wait they might evacuate the civilians, if any – along with Myxx's family.
So the assault is underway. Let's say you use secret gates in Serpentis-secured dead-space pockets to navigate this force from outside the Federation's space and to the system in question – from there you instantly and without warning land them all on the security perimeter and assault the Black Eagle's dark-colored ships patrolling. You force your way to the station before reinforcements arrive (or possibly while they do) and assault the station directly, possibly while still fighting in space so that you waste no time. You manage to breach the outer defenses and land several ships filled with soldiers and hardware, these assault the defenders and the station's automated security and clear the landing area.
Now the ugly melée starts; blowing open and invading through any sealed doors and possibly vented-to-space hallways, gunning down any defenders holding the lines and defending the access points, popping any tanks or mechanized units in your way. After slowly gunning your way to the apartment areas, any civilians not in shelters are caught in the cross-fire along with any other troops holding the area. After moving your way in to the location of Myxx's family you might find them where they are supposed to be, perhaps moved further away, possibly to evacuate them. If this happen you have to fight your way to them or conquer the main security hub and assume control over, then disabling, the stations security.
Perhaps at this point you manage to cancel all locked doors and such, to more easily overwhelm any security left and open any shelters any civilians are hiding in. At that point said civilian's are likely shoot, or if you have time dragged off as slaves – they are after all the families of your enemies and might make very fine servants, or fetch good money either as hostages in turn (ooh, the lovely irony) to be ransomed back, or slaves to be auctioned off.
Maybe you will find Myxx's family in the station then, or perhaps they had time to be shipped off in an SDII transport, possibly along with more civilians – in this case you will have to stop all transports trying to leave. Those taken who did not have your family (if any) might make good slaves too.
With your family in hand, the defenders dead and dying, the families the same or in your custody, you may deploy your nuke to blow up the station after you leave. The Angel's retreat with their cargo and the remaining soldiers and ships not blown up yet, and make it back to Curse through the Serpentis' gate network.
Congratulations, your job is done.
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this is what you did not do. This is one of the things you might have done. Simply ignored the option of trying to do anything might well have been viable, waiting for the SDII to release Myxx's folks on their own. If after quite some time (say, 3 weeks, a month?) they still had not, you would in a manner have been justified in attacking, even. After all, Seri would have lied and the SDII would have kept your family. By the time you struck others might have shared in, for instance; what if there were other capsuleers on this station? A member of the EL-G helping to organize the defense, for instance? Working out a scenario with them over some time could have been loads of fun for all of you. If you had gone with the option of attacking and say, taken slaves of their families, another reason to escalate the situation would have presented itself. The fun would have gone on.
Basically Niki, I'm angry with you for not only denying anyone else who might have wanted in on this golden chance the enjoyment, but also for god-moding it into absurdity - something that has hurt your reputation, IMHO – and for going for the cheap-shot of simply claiming that “Seri and his ilk are evil and suck, we are good and rule” in very simple terms.
If you get a chance to co-opt a RP story with anyone else again, I hope this does not repeat.
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fair enough, and yes, to be honest, most of what Seri said was decent, but after 5 hours of arguing with him (and arguing with him is not like discussing something with say you, you put things in much more reasonable terms and make Seri's requests make sense) anyway, after five hours, it took all my strength not to throw my computer through a wall, I was pissed off, kneejerk reaction takes over.
So yeah, I apologize to Seri for sorta jumping the shark on things, and damaging what could have been a good RP. But thats the thing, it wasn't a good RP. It wasn't fun, I wasn't enjoying it, I wanted the entire thing over and done with so I didn't have to deal with Seri any more.
It was stupid and uncalled for and childish etc etc. I admit it, I am at fault. Not only am I at fault for what I did, but I am at fault for trying to RP out something complex with someone I never really liked.
oh well. Live and learn.
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There is always another time, hopefully you might enjoy it then.
Also, if you want stuff worked out with someone you don't absolutely like working with, you might consider just leaving it alone or getting a 3rd party intermediary to act as buffer for the two sides.
If you want something worked out with seriphyn again - or anyone else for that matter - and want a 3rd part opinion you might ask me. I'd enjoy helping you work out a co-opted scenario, I think.
At least if not I'll try to be civilized enouh to inform you of this and pulling out or whatever.
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What disturbs me is all player organizations are Loyalists to their main factions they are loyal to only, we're Capsuleers... When Blood Inquisition does things we don't say we where ordered to by the Blood Raiders or they hold our prisoners etc. or they supply us with elite shock troops to do planetary raids, we have our own bases and such.
We've done about 10 events in our days with Aurora actors, most not even announced on Galnet or shown on Eve news. But what i'm getting at is, Unless we really did it with the faction we are loyal to, we stay away from saying Blood Raiders support this or helped us with that etc. and think all Loyalist / Capsuleer organizations should do the same.
Think this whole player plot line, involved the npc factions to much for my liking.
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What disturbs me is all player organizations are Loyalists to their main factions they are loyal to only, we're Capsuleers... When Blood Inquisition does things we don't say we where ordered to by the Blood Raiders or they hold our prisoners etc. or they supply us with elite shock troops to do planetary raids, we have our own bases and such.
We've done about 10 events in our days with Aurora actors, most not even announced on Galnet or shown on Eve news. But what i'm getting at is, Unless we really did it with the faction we are loyal to, we stay away from saying Blood Raiders support this or helped us with that etc. and think all Loyalist / Capsuleer organizations should do the same.
Think this whole player plot line, involved the npc factions to much for my liking.
That's my thought about all of this. Unless the faction in question is explicitly involved via actors of some kind, then you can't involve them. And why would you? Capsuleers are capable of doing plenty of faction-like things themselves. The main problem is: do you want to own up to the consequences, and take responsibility for it?
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Eh, at no point did I ever think it was an argument. But hey, don't have to like me, I'm used to that now lol /emo
See, now the interesting thing about RPing a member of an NPC faction...if you claim you are "Federation Navy", well, unless your corp says so, you are most obviously not. SDII is a bit different. There is absolutely no way both IC or OOC you can prove or disprove Seri maybe being a Black Eagle. Even if CCP came out with an FIO character and said "No, Seriphyn is not a member of the FIO", that is still not proof, as no intelligence agency discloses details of their agents. The same applies to anyone wishing to RP an undercover agent. (or you could be like Vieve, and just not tell anyone about it).
In a more general sense, I point to the chronicle Her Painted Selves (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=05-08-08).
He'd showed them the setup when he first came into the deal, explaining that while some people would undoubtedly guess his identity, it shouldn't be publicly acknowledged by anyone on the team. The capsuleer had offered an unknown addition to the funds the Federation had earmarked for Gerets' operation, enough to secure him a watcher's position in the press circus that surrounded the couple. He wasn't shy about his support, though its scope was unrevealed, but this effort wasn't supposed to be about him.
"Let me tell you something," he said. "The people who organized this, as far as they're concerned, Gerets is no hero. He's a terribly unlucky everyman, chosen to be a poster boy of what the enemy did to our people and handed a little bone to chew on as a thanks. Before I came into this deal, the plan was to stagger the release of regrowth money so much and thrust it behind such masses of red tape that you'd effectively have been serfs of the government in perpetuity. I brought in ten times what they'd set aside for you, and even that amount is less than I can make in a day. You owe them nothing, nor me, nor anyone else.
In addition, think about the militias. All the ranks for capsuleers are the commissioned ranks. What about the non-commissioned ranks? These are most likely the crewmen and staff, in fact, a news article mentioned Soldiers enlisted in the State Protectorate are reportedly giving vent to their views by using photographs of the three CEOs on their firing ranges (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2465&tid=6), making it likely that player capsuleers are the officers and commanders of these enlisted troops. Sure the ranks mean nothing mechanically, but in terms of fluff?
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The same applies to anyone wishing to RP an undercover agent. (or you could be like Vieve, and just not tell everyone about it).
Fixed that for you.
And speaking from atop that particular soapbox of mine, why was all of this splashed across the IGS in the first place? The story arc only involved two or three parties, and I couldn't see many open hooks for others to become involved in it.1
1Disclaimer: while I generally prefer letting people (including me) hang themselves with their own IC ropes, at Seri's request, I backed away from an opportunity to do so.
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I can't speak to the specific situations above, both because I don't know anything about them and because my opinion wouldn't really matter. However, I've personally always found that the clandestine ops RP stuff works best when nobody really knows about it. (I will henceforth refer to this as "the Vieve approach".)
As an example, while very few folks over time picked up on it, Casiella has long been heavily involved with the RSS. I'd mention it to one degree or another in the brief bits of fiction on my EVE blog (http://rift.chromebits.net), but in-game and in RP it's not something I broadcast. That would defeat the purpose of clandestine and covert operations in the first place.
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See, now the interesting thing about RPing a member of an NPC faction...if you claim you are "Federation Navy", well, unless your corp says so, you are most obviously not. SDII is a bit different. There is absolutely no way both IC or OOC you can prove or disprove Seri maybe being a capsuleer. Even if CCP came out with an FIO character and said "No, Seriphyn is not a member of the FIO", that is still not proof,
Well, same can be said about anyone, I could say I'm the husband of Dracrila Merlone , a lvl4 BR agent and Commander belt rat npc, Or that I'm her right hand man, but all in all I don't think its good RP to involve NPC factions/characters so closely as Capsuleers and Loyalists... On other hand We "BL-IN" in fact "did" an event with Aurora actors in space back in 2005. who played Dracrila Merlone, If i quoted events that took place or referenced things that came to be from our interactions or happened as a result of that event even months/year later, like how she inspired me to have courage and be so loyal to my beliefs , then theres nothing wrong with that per say...
Respectful RP: Some may view the Blood Raiders as a peacefull organizations that are relentlessly attacked by others, an evil organization but they are so twisted they think they are the "good guyS" and everything they do evil is actually good, murder = compassion etc , so If i made a player event saying Blood Raiders know their ruthless killers and love bathing in children's blood at night, it might game break others views/rp. so I wouldnt view it as good RP choice.
In closing, Each Capsuleer/Loyalist organization has their own infrastructure like a npc corp, our own planetary bases (PI), starbases (pos's), and trained troops / combat squads that we can imagine up. When you start involving the NPC faction too closely in your plots/events as a capsuleer you can break others enjoyment of how they interact/view that faction. Its up to you how you RP, but I'd try to be respectfull to others, RP allows us limitless choices in our plots/interactions...
Edit: So yes, we seperate ourselves from saying we "are" Sani Sabik
We in fact are a "sect" who follow its scripture and teachings.
Our interpretations of Sani Sabik may vary from others. just as RL religions
We don't play as Blood Raider officers/Operatives etc.
We are loyalists to the Blood Raider Covenant. but seperate
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SDII is a bit different. There is absolutely no way both IC or OOC you can prove or disprove ... Even if CCP came out with an FIO character and said "No, Seriphyn is not a member of the FIO", that is still not proof,
"I am descendant from purple space dragons! Prove me wrong!"
Shouldn't it be more about creating something that is believable to the players OOC, as not to break immersion?
If there was a post claiming that Seri was the leader of the SDII, IC I couldn't prove that Seri isn't, and there my be good evidence IC pointing to this as a fact, but OOC a claim like that would be a real immersion breaker for me.
Just because I cant produce good IC evidence to the contrary IC to disprove a claim doesn't mean that I dont know it is not like that at all OOC. This breaks immersion, the reason I roleplay and play the game.
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"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" has never been a good way to go about determining what is true or false. I would have to agree with Graan, you can say anything you like about your character. The problem is that if its completely unbelievable and ruins the scene for the rest of the RP community, no one will listen.
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I think we're getting dangerously close to "your RP is wrong".
No, actually, I think we hit that a page ago.
Honestly, I enjoyed the entire arc. Do I think it might have been more fun/realistic with the inclusion of a giant space battle? Sure. But apparently they rolled the dice, and that's not what happened. That doesn't bug me all that much, either - sometimes, rescue plans really do go off perfectly (albeit, very, very rarely).
What does bug me is how many people are quick to line up and tell Seri that he's wrong for adding dark to the Fed, that he's wrong for claiming some sort of connection to the Fed, and tell Niki that her story was god-modding and so on and so forth.
Geez.
They RPed an overzealous Federal operative crossing the line and losing the game. And now people are criticizing them for...what?
I honestly think the criticism here isn't so much over the trope they used, or an unlikely resolution, as much as it is based on personal likes and dislikes, and the irritation some have with seeing the (in their eyes) lily-white righteousness of the Federation sullied. Because, in my time in Eve, I've seen half a dozen similar plots, and people sure didn't get upset when someone was running from the State, or the Empire, or the Sansha, or whatnot, and when the characters weren't Seriphyn and Nikita.
People claim affiliation with NPC entities all the time. They also invent stories about escapes, captures, kidnappings, and persecution all the time. Why it is suddenly wrong now is a question worth answering.
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I'm not really seeing much of people telling Seri he's wrong to play it dark, Vikarion. I think the people who don't like this event don't like it for the reasons they've said they don't like it. Gallente rpers have authored a pretty small proportion of the posts in this thread so far. I doubt many of the people who've criticized the method of what happened have a dog in this race: Amarrian loyalists, Blood Raiders, Matari and so on.
To add to the topic, I didn't like this event much largely because I felt the execution (on both sides) was a bit ham-handed. Nothing wrong with the idea and it wasn't bad, just not something that drew me in. When people who don't like each other collaborate and start using the material they're creating to take digs at each other, sloppiness seems inevitable. Both players have produced better work on their own. This just seemed like a bad matchup.
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I think we're getting dangerously close to "your RP is wrong".
If you read my point of view in the two posts i made on page 3, I don't say what he did was "bad RP" or wrong, In fact i think it was pretty cool plotline and player RP arc for gallente, I just wanted to state theres better "way" to RP in eve than claiming your a operative of a NPC faction/corp etc. or basicly speaking for a NPC entity...
Why? its not very "respectfull" RP as it can gamebreak others RP/views who are loyalists to that faction/npc corp,, and I even made examples why its just not very good "way" to RP. But think it could of went off fine without even mentioning the NPC entity's. why should we have to?
example: Its expected loyalists will have different methods or ways to support their faction/npc corps, one might burn a heretic they capture, others might bring them to trial etc, but its never in the NPC factions hands or stated they choose this path to the end game.
As Simon said, i have no dog in the race, It won't change much of anything for me if you accept or discredit my point of view. I'm just giving my honest opinion on the matter.
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I'm slowly beginning to think the problems that arise with these RPing shenanigans is because I am, mostly, a "solo RPer". Publically, at the current time, I am the only one who is RPing such a viewpoint...I think this might cause the issues, but I can't exactly explain why...
Anyone care to agree, disgree or elaborate for me?
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I'm slowly beginning to think the problems that arise with these RPing shenanigans is because I am, mostly, a "solo RPer". Publically, at the current time, I am the only one who is RPing such a viewpoint...I think this might cause the issues, but I can't exactly explain why...
Anyone care to agree, disgree or elaborate for me?
I'll elaberate.. Its not that your a solo RPer or a one of the kind, no not at all... did you read the 3 posts i typed out at all? cause thats not where I was coming from, and certainly most others as i read it
Let me ask question in return, what kind of message did you get from what i typed in those 3 replys?
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I'm slowly beginning to think the problems that arise with these RPing shenanigans is because I am, mostly, a "solo RPer". Publically, at the current time, I am the only one who is RPing such a viewpoint...I think this might cause the issues, but I can't exactly explain why...
Anyone care to agree, disgree or elaborate for me?
Let me see if I can provide an external example, I made the following posts, one on Nikita, one on Illuria, my alt, who, according to my RP, was the liaisons officer for RIA
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1340749/page/1#1
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1343331/page/1#2
You would not believe the flak I got for this, I think Naka is still angry at me over that, Aria defended me, but you see the point Naka is making? It took a while for me to see it but I did.
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=671.msg7902#msg7902
Basically, its not anything your saying, its how you're saying it. You're effectively claiming you are PF, you are canon, you are this super special thing. No one is truly affiliated with the factions the way you (and I was) claiming to be here. Its a rather quick way to jump the shark as an RPer when you start claiming to know, be aligned with, or have inside knowledge regarding the NPCs. It breaks the bounds of character and world in a way thats damaging to the experiences of others.
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Just to respond to Vikarion and Seri, I did not mean to make it sound from my post that there was anything wrong with the RP. It was an interesting read and a well thought out concept. Something went wrong in the execution however.
I think I am in the same boat as Sabbot, who seems to be posting my ideas before I have thought of them.
Point is, that this type of faction RP could generate flames as it may be seen as Godmoding with an NPC faction. The story could have been so much better if the NPC's had been left out.
Also, I applaud Seri for his line of RP. Those feds ARE evil.
But at the same time I think there should be greater seperation between capsuleers, as they are RPed by us, and NPC's. When I read about how an NPC corp gives a capsuleer an NPC army to assult an NPC base to resuce some NPC's, my immersion hits hollow ground.
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Well, the problem that Seri is facing here is pretty much frying pan and fire.
If he says "no, I'm not affiliated in any way with *insert x*, any attempts he makes to portray unsavory actions will be simply glossed over by die-hard proponents of the Fed-as-good-guys paradigm. In fact, it's likely that they'll claim that they are affiliated with some part of the Fed, and that the Fed officially condemns Seri. I've seen this happen before.
On the other hand, if Seri does claim even the most tenuous of connections, he is "god-moding" by some standards. But let's be honest - we all claim some connection to our faction of choice. Ghost Festival claimed to be a capsuleer experiment by the Dominations. Many Amarrian players - including many in PIE, claim to be Holders. Any time we try to create any connection between ourselves and the pre-written story, we engage in a bit of this by-fiat storytelling.
The difference between acceptable use of such and "god-moding" is one of degree. Ciarente created a planet and gave it its own culture and customs. Is it right to claim that since the Eve writers intended no such planet, Cia is "god-moding"? Hardly. Without some liberties being taken, there is no RP.
To say that Seriphyn couldn't find some agents somewhere willing to authorize his actions, in a Federation of trillions, seems odd. He's a capsuleer, insanely rich, and likely with some amount of influence. From an OOC perspective, it's a minor sin, certainly no more egregious than the claims Verone makes of actions taken against him by "lawful authorities", or Stitcher's claim that he was chased by the Provists, or the statements many of you pirates have in your bio's regarding CONCORDs files on you (after all, who are you to say what an NPC organization thinks of your characters, hmm?)
If Seri doesn't somehow tie his actions to a Federal NPC group, he will be quickly deprived of his "status" as a loyal Federation capsuleer by those unwilling to admit any faults in their own faction. So he, presumably without guile, came to reasonable conclusions as to what an NPC group might participate in, and made a story out of it. And it was interesting.
It's all very well and good to say that this isn't personal, but those statements ring rather hollow when you realize how often others do the same exact thing that Seri did, and are congratulated for their efforts. The reality is that somehow Seriphyn seems to get designated as an acceptable target because he irritates some people.
I'm not on a crusade for Seriphyn here. Frankly, my interest in this comes down to "well, that's not fair." And you who are criticizing Seriphyn, in the end, may be finding him at fault because he went two inches over your personal preference as to how one should use NPCs and background info.
Which, in the end, is "your RP is wrong".
And I understand, I really do, the desire to prevent someone from running over an NPC organization with fantastic changes to their nature - i.e., "the Theology Council has deposed Jamyl and crowned Vikarion Emperor!" or something similar. The difference is, again, one of degree. Seriphyn's storyline is not unreasonable, just as someone with a storyline of Provists beating up a Gallente tourist wouldn't be unreasonable.
Perhaps we could save our wrath for those who grossly offend?
EDIT: toned down some language and clarified some things.
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But at the same time I think there should be greater seperation between capsuleers, as they are RPed by us, and NPC's. When I read about how an NPC corp gives a capsuleer an NPC army to assult an NPC base to resuce some NPC's, my immersion hits hollow ground.
I, and I'm sure many others, have grappled from time to time with the question of how to run a storyline that necessarily involves some NPCs or NPC corp to some extent - even if only because something happens on a station, and stations are run by corporations in Empire space.
I always try, now, to approach it as delicately and minimally as possible, bearing in mind that other players, many many other players, also have to interact with that corporation as part of their gameplay, and perhaps as part of their RP. So the more important I make my character in that corporation's operations, the more I am godmodding anyone else who deals with that corporation in their relationship to my character.
With that in mind, I generally try to limit what happens to variations on what game mechanics make possible: obviously, game mechanics don't allow my character to trace non-podder characters, for example, because they don't exist IG, but if I can trace a podder, I don't think it's unreasonable to trace someone else. I have good enough standing to get free shield repairs and pay no taxes on sales or refining? Then maybe I could push to the front of the queue of people waiting to see station management or get into station medical or whatever.
But I try, admittedly sometimes I get it wrong, to limit things to what won't affect other players, or force them to react in particular ways. Looking back eighteen months, I know I went over the line with a story that had a station being turned upside down in the search for a fugitive, including ships (not specified as non-podder ships) held and searched - but fortunately I got away with it and no-one pulled me up on it. I had another storyline, in which my character Hildegaard Russell reported a devastating biological attack carried out by another player's character on an insignificant city in a nowhere world. That was considered godmodding by other players, and their IC responses made that clear.
I'm more careful now: my stories are on a smaller scale. I'm sure I still get things wrong from time to time, but it's a learning process. I've found that the less you yourself do, the more room you leave for other players, and that's more fun for everyone.
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Well, the problem that Seri is facing here is pretty much frying pan and fire.
If he says "no, I'm not affiliated in any way with *insert x*, any attempts he makes to portray unsavory actions will be simply glossed over by die-hard proponents of the Fed-as-good-guys paradigm. In fact, it's likely that they'll claim that they are affiliated with some part of the Fed, and that the Fed officially condemns Seri. I've seen this happen before.
On the other hand, if Seri does claim even the most tenuous of connections, he is "god-moding" by some standards. But let's be honest - we all claim some connection to our faction of choice. Ghost Festival claimed to be a capsuleer experiment by the Dominations. Many Amarrian players - including many in PIE, claim to be Holders. Any time we try to create any connection between ourselves and the pre-written story, we engage in a bit of this by-fiat storytelling.
The difference between acceptable use of such and "god-moding" is one of degree. Ciarente created a planet and gave it its own culture and customs. Is it right to claim that since the Eve writers intended no such planet, Cia is "god-moding"? Hardly. Without some liberties being taken, there is no RP.
To say that Seriphyn couldn't find some agents somewhere willing to authorize his actions, in a Federation of trillions, seems odd. He's a capsuleer, insanely rich, and likely with some amount of influence. From an OOC perspective, it's a minor sin, certainly no more egregious than the claims Verone makes of actions taken against him by "lawful authorities", or Stitcher's claim that he was chased by the Provists, or the statements many of you pirates have in your bio's regarding CONCORDs files on you (after all, who are you to say what an NPC organization thinks of your characters, hmm?)
If Seri doesn't somehow tie his actions to a Federal NPC group, he will be quickly deprived of his "status" as a loyal Federation capsuleer by those unwilling to admit any faults in their own faction. So he, presumably without guile, came to reasonable conclusions as to what an NPC group might participate in, and made a story out of it. And it was interesting.
It's all very well and good to say that this isn't personal, but those statements ring rather hollow when you realize how often others do the same exact thing that Seri did, and are congratulated for their efforts. The reality is that somehow Seriphyn seems to get designated as an acceptable target because he irritates some people.
I'm not on a crusade for Seriphyn here. Frankly, my interest in this comes down to "well, that's not fair." And you who are criticizing Seriphyn, in the end, may be finding him at fault because he went two inches over your personal preference as to how one should use NPCs and background info.
Which, in the end, is "your RP is wrong".
And I understand, I really do, the desire to prevent someone from running over an NPC organization with fantastic changes to their nature - i.e., "the Theology Council has deposed Jamyl and crowned Vikarion Emperor!" or something similar. The difference is, again, one of degree. Seriphyn's storyline is not unreasonable, just as someone with a storyline of Provists beating up a Gallente tourist wouldn't be unreasonable.
Perhaps we could save our wrath for those who grossly offend?
EDIT: toned down some language and clarified some things.
Damnit I was all gearing up for a post like this and you beat me to the damn punch.
I have been wondering if most of the blown out of proportions issues surrounding Seriphyn have been because of the legitimacy of the issue, or people's ingrained distaste of Seriphyn in general.
Although I would like to see the debate between the viability of RPing with NPC entities continued on, I do not think this is the appropriate thread for it.
Toodles~
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Well, this may not yet be a threadnaught, but it's definitely weighing in on the assault babblecruiser segment of the displacement chart.
I haven't read terribly much of this and I'm really not going to until much later, but I will underscore that the only things that should have really mattered to any of you are as follows:
-People went into this in part to show each other up, whether they knew they were doing so or not, and,
-People came out of it trying to score points rather than write collaboratively and have fun.
Any and all details are secondary, because details and perceptions of verisimilitude are merely about how comfortable you might be with a given scenario. Are you comfortable with a little bit of truthiness, or do you need to try to simulate things as accurately as possible? I don't know, but in the long run, it matters a whole shitload less than how everyone feels after the dust's settled.
People came out of this like it was a bad trip. Stop freaking out about that. It's not worth your page-long posts, it's just a good old-fashioned shitfest. You remember what those are like, right?
Those of you still wringing your hands over it - and there seem to be a few people - should do yourselves a favor, learn the cogent lesson here (roleplay to have fun, not go after someone with an attack womb or a projectile phallus or whatever else you think up), and sweep this under the fucking rug.
And try not to repeat the mistakes you've made for a while.
That's all you can do.
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I might like to build on Vikarion's post, and Ghost Hunter's concurring...back to how being a soloist brings issues. For example, Strix A&D did the exact same thing. They claimed to have shares purchased by Ishukone, then by Roden Shipyards, and claimed to have been investigated by the SDII. However, due to Strix being a larger group, and one not known for causing knee-jerk reactions by people, most just shrugged on by.
I am aware I cause certain negative reactions by folk, not exactly something I want or am happy with, but I think that is the core of the issue, on top of the fact that being the only one who is RPing such an angle, causes such reactions. PRETA, who claimed to be a Dominations experiment, did not receive such a chastising due to the fact their CEO and members, for example, are generally liked by the community.
Bit of a self-fulfilling thing. People are irritated by myself because they are offended how far I go because they are irritated by myself.
But yeah, what Vikarion said. Capsuleers work for NPCs, and sometimes I guess the NPCs will need to provide some resources to get the job done v0v.
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There's no real solo play in eve online, particularly when public press releases are involved. That may be the problem.
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Hypothetical of the day:
Is it godmoding if the NPCs are harming your character's interests?
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Only if they can't be stopped.
Unless it's being written by CCP (dunno why they are called NPCs), at which point yes.
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ISD Markus Valkynar contacted me yesterday, and we had a very good IC discussion. Quite enjoyed the RP discussion around what is currently going on regarding freedom fascism/pragmatism on the IGS. The topic was focused around MXD's denouncement of the Federation, and Markus here finding out whether this made a big impact on the FDU (which he found out, ultimately didn't)
A snippet from the conversation was...
[ 2010.10.22 16:32:37 ] ISD Markus Valkynar > The leader of said corp implicated you in some "anti-Federation" activities... Namely, some rather illegal actions taken on behalf of secret governmental agencies.
[ 2010.10.22 16:34:06 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Anti-Federation as far as his own perceptions and ideals of what the Gallente stand for.
[ 2010.10.22 16:34:29 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > /emote smirks, "We never were the good guys"
[ 2010.10.22 16:37:41 ] ISD Markus Valkynar > He asserted that you had performed services for the SDII. Any truth to that?
[ 2010.10.22 16:40:06 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > I will not deny that I have carried out missions for the SDII in the same capacity as other capsuleers who have also done so.
[ 2010.10.22 16:40:42 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > The difference is that I relayed "what happens next", as far as mission success goes. I suppose many capsuleers are unaware of the consequences of the missions they complete, and what happens to the people they capture for the governmental organization or corporation
[ 2010.10.22 16:42:01 ] ISD Markus Valkynar > Ah, so you have performed missions for SDII agents... And in your travels, you have encountered situations in which you had to make such a difficult choice?
What do people think of this then? There was likely to be an IC article if MXD's departure had a significant impact, and it would have been interesting if this was mentioned...does an ISD reporter not barging around claiming SDII interaction never happened give it any legitimacy over other players saying so?
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What do people think of this then? There was likely to be an IC article if MXD's departure had a significant impact, and it would have been interesting if this was mentioned...does an ISD reporter not barging around claiming SDII interaction never happened give it any legitimacy over other players saying so?
That would be a no in my book. People spew strings of lies/inaccurate statements at reporters in real life all the time. The concept is "we report, you decide". However, don't get me wrong, I find myself very often wishing journalists had backbones enough to stop a person in their tracks when they are making demonstrably false statements because "you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own set of facts".
So again, the fact you didn't get much push back or corrected outright isn't really "evidence" one way or the other.
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Well, this traces back the conversation a few pages, but you RP a Mordu's Agent, no? So I hardly see the offence ;)
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It's the ISD.
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Well, this traces back the conversation a few pages, but you RP a Mordu's Agent, no? So I hardly see the offence ;)
I, the player, do not see validity in the idea that an ISD reporter not challenging a statement as constituting an endorsement of its accuracy. IC perspectives of believing or not believing those statements are equally valid whether they actually took place or not (some people will not believe you even if you did/some people will believe you did even if you didn't).
Ultimately, if we didn't have things like this to disagree about, how much fun would our discussions be? :9