Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Mizhara on 02 Sep 2010, 22:59
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So something's been bugging me for over a year now. The Amarr blocs and other entities that accept slavery are pretty much thriving, and has been for some time. Some are even hardliners on the concept, and others are merely dabbling in it. Most pirate factions accept or outright endorse slavery, and even the Caldari are Empire supporters, even if they personally outlaw slavery in the State.
Where's all the Matari hardliners? Where's all the anti-slavery hardliners? I can't find any anymore. Everyone's either into slavery, or simply speaks against it but keeps huggling their close slaver friend.
I know there's consequences to shunning slavery. Hell, I live it. My character gets more and more shunned, as she won't accept tolerance for slavery in those she interacts with, no matter their race. I know it limits your social circle quite a bit, as it means you run the risk of having to tell the slavers and those who accepts slavery to fuck off.
Is that price so horrible to pay that there's no one left on the hardliner side of things? I keep hearing of the 'old days' when there were Matari hardliners around. Then they buggered off to Nullsec and pretty much stopped being an RP entity and instead became a pewpew entity with RP on the sidelines. There's Republic RP around, but I see little hardliner activity coming from within a Republic that still totes Midular's flag around for kissing Amarr ass nine times out of ten.
Are there hardliners left? If so, where the hell are you? What do you do?
If not, is there perhaps someone out there that's interested in trying it out, or is it simply too grueling not being able to have your Matari ex-slave or whatever still huggle any slaver just for the convenience of getting RP out of it?
Help me out here. Show me your colours. As it stands... I get the distinct feeling my hardliner character is standing alone, listening to the echoes of her warcries bounce off the giant Amarr/Empire/Slaver bloc just waiting to be crushed under their weight.
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There's plenty, however, many tend to avoid places like The Summit or IGS.
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There's plenty, however, many tend to avoid places like The Summit or IGS.
Not to be an ass, but that's not helpful at all. Where does said anti-slavers hang out? Do they actually do any RP, or just pewpewing randomly after writing some anti-slavery bio?
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There is no organized 'Minmatar Bloc', so most anti-slavery RP chat and events I know of are internal.
Deck 23 used to be a pretty popular IC channel for U'K RPers, but like I said, it's mostly internal now. We should pester Zool to get the channel populated again.
Might find some anti-slavers hanging out in Public - EM
Hard to unify all anti-slavers due to differing political views. Edit: Indeed it seemed as though violence almost erupted among various anti-slavery groups over the whole Midular thing. :)
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There's plenty, however, many tend to avoid places like The Summit or IGS.
Not to be an ass, but that's not helpful at all. Where does said anti-slavers hang out? Do they actually do any RP, or just pewpewing randomly after writing some anti-slavery bio?
IGS is a bit of a cesspool, we don't go there too much - just for important announcements and occasionally backing up our allies.
We tend to RP through our actions in space. Our preferred targets are slavers or their allies. Some of us blog the anti-slaver RP externally. Local channel is IC-only for U'K/D'K too, for what it's worth. Honestly there is a bit of internal tension in D'K atm between people with different positions on how important RP is and should be but we're still a good way from abandoning it, thankfully.
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Electus Matari would be one emancipationist banner to rally around.
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Electus Matari would be one emancipationist banner to rally around.
Sure if you can deal with dirtay Republic politics ;)
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Well, the thing is, EM isn't exactly about anti-slavery. EM is about building up and strengthening the Republic. (From the horse's mouth). Basically, making sure the home base is secure while others deal with the pesky Empire.
I look around the various RP channels. The various bars, the Summit, all over the place. I see slavers in pretty much all of them, and joyful interaction is had. I don't see anyone frowning and sneering in distaste or things like that. (You do get that if you talk about freeing slaves, or being hardline). I titter about on alts, wandering around the Amarr channels and areas... and I see great cohesion. I see struggles and challenges... but I see Amarr cohesion and familiarity. Unity.
It's been a while since I've seen any Matari unity. The one Matari hangout that I knew about pretty much died out, I think, not to mention Anti-slavery unity.
And please, don't let me give you the impression I'm saying to anyone that 'urdoinitrong'. I'm quite pleased at seeing people RP and enjoy themselves. I am just a little saddened at being alone on the far end of the spectrum, with just a Khanid(!) and the last remaining member of Du'uma Fiisi.
I ask again... where's the Matari? Is there interest at all in a proper Matari 'bloc' or interest in more hardline Matari/Anti-slavery RP? It would be limiting the pool of people you could huggle with, after all...
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Your question was answered, you know where we are. It's just that most of us are fairly quiet/speak with actions.
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And if U'K/D'K is all there is... well... the point is kind of made, isn't it?
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None of your options apply to me >_>
I think my GF wants to play the hardline Matari card, but she needs a computer before she can play.
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Sounds to me like a niche to be re-developed.
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Being a hardliner seems to be a solo venture by its nature.
People want to feel accepted, therefore they make compromises, therefore they will not be hardliners anymore.
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UK is the only anti-slavery group I can think of.
My corp is anti-Amarr Empire, we see the Empire as being the problem creating many other issues like Minmatar slavery.
If people want to keep Amarr slaves then fine by us. :twisted:
I intend to build on some of the work I did in Paratawa but we are just a growing group but once the new members get some more experience then we will get more profile. For now we are doing a good job fighting the Empire on the front line.
"The Paratwa Ra condemned the newly formed Ushra'Khan as beeing to soft and refused to join the alliance"
Paratwa: http://eve-history.net/wiki/index.php/The_Paratwa_Ra
We keep to ourselves as I dont see our RP as hanging around in bars with Amarrians/Gurista/Caldari etc etc. Just seems silly as my char would immediately want to slice their throats.
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And if U'K/D'K is all there is... well... the point is kind of made, isn't it?
And there was me thinking you were simply asking questions.
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And if U'K/D'K is all there is... well... the point is kind of made, isn't it?
Not really. Not all of our members RP, but I can't really think of any group with a more hardline stance on slavery than us.
We actually still have quite a few hardline immersive RPers. Ugleb, zoolkhan, Hadderach, Poreuomai, Wotlankor, Sebatian Starstrider, Yasca and Becq just to name a few. Sorry if we don't hang out much in RP bars and such. :P
Would be nice for some sort of new 'coalition of unity' between anti-slavery groups, as long as we aren't alienated by condescension. Indeed a similar coalition years ago led to the founding of U'K and we currently actively seek out and try to set mutual blue with anti slaver groups.
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My apologies for the apparent misunderstanding here. It wasn't meant as condescending or looking down on it. Let me clarify here. Ushra'Khan was kind of what I aspired to back when I first started this game and found the RP community. It sounded quite awesome. Of course, since I came late to the party, U'K was already far beyond the reaches of the nublet I was at the time.
But it's still a drop in the sea, compared to the other side, isn't it? I did not mean to come across as condescending there, and I hope you believe me. On the other hand, I don't think U'K/D'K is what I seek either, as most of what I hear involves U'K softening up to the point of taking in half the Provibloc when that fell, and basically making what is gameplay-wise good decisions but seemed to be quite... well, leaving behind some principles while doing so.
This may have changed in Damu'Khonde... but from the rumblings I keep hearing from the odd D'K member, RP happens on the sidelines, if at all in D'K.
Are there still corps there that make decisions based on an IC/RP stance first and is willing to face that handicap of not being able to do this or that simply because it'd be betraying the principles in question? In other words... hardliners?
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Yep, KHAI, SARZ, and when/if they reform properly, NKB off the top of my head are fairly hardline. Most other corps also have RPers (I think a few of the newer ones have about zero) but probably at a lower 'concentration' and not controlling corp leadership to the same extent. The thing is different corps have different recruiting standards as to player's personality, character skills and involvement in RP. For example in RP terms some of the corps simply demand IC talk in local or shut up and follow alliance policies which may be RP-based even if you don't like them, others require more.
We didn't take in many Provibloc refugees at all, but there have been some other tensions within the alliance to do with RP and its place to be sure which I shan't go into in public.
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Of course, the inner workings are internal. Not expecting that to be aired in public.
So here's the question then:
Is there interest for more hardliner RP? Something more cohesive that could conceivably be considered a community? Interacting with other hardliners? Hell, at some point perhaps even reaching the kind of level the Amarr operate on?
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I've been considering rolling a matari anti-slavery hardliner. My idea was to float around in militia for a bit to learn the lay of the land(since the last time I went anywhere near Minmatar space was about a year ago), and then either stay in or leave but become a terrorits of sorts and go after soft targets behind enemy lines(miners and missionrunners mostly). I would probably still take the character into bars for the occasional drink. I doubt I would play all nice nice with any slavers there, but I wouldnt get in their faces either. At best I would treat them with disdain and in a worst case scenario I would yell at them a bit maybe threaten them and leave it at that if they pressed the issue(privided I know or find out IC that they are slavers of some sort pr support it). If i found a corp of like minded peoples I envision small to medium fast moving gangs just reaking havoc in slaver space killing everything we could.
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Is there interest for more hardliner RP? Something more cohesive that could conceivably be considered a community? Interacting with other hardliners? Hell, at some point perhaps even reaching the kind of level the Amarr operate on?
Yes there is interest in this, but there is a big difference between Imperialists and abolitionists that might make it difficult. Amarr loyalists are all unified by the Empress, Anti slavers are all a mixed bag often with opposing politics and little to unify them except a common foe.
I believe much has been blown out of proportion with D'K. We actually rejected a ton of applications from former Provi dwellers. I know cause I personally told many of them to piss off :lol:. We're a new alliance with all new leadership. Our new executor is an RPer and has actually just started a new formal RP campaign to help get us back to our roots, and like I said, we still have many hardliners, who I'm sure might be interested in your idea Mizhara.
What would you have in mind to bring everyone together?
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Well, for starters some common stomping grounds, communication wise. Something to form a few tighter bonds In Character and Out of Character. The following are just ideas, I do not have the resources nor skills needed to actually realize any of the following:
* Some IC and OOC forum for Anti-slavery/Matari debates, talks, planning and events and so on. Or just IC and use Backstage for the OoC stuff. Make it a more public thing than it is right now, hidden in various internal chats and corp/alliance forums. Stir interest, get debates, get ideas and balls rolling.
* An RP bar. (Yes, I can hear you groaning, but some people like them. I'm sure there's hardliners that enjoy it as well.) Name it... the Khumaak or something like that. Somewhere that hardliners when it comes to anti-slavery can RP and enjoy themselves and know they won't have to keep RPing as hostile or have to ignore half the channel list for being slavers or slavery supporters. Make it as inclusive as it can be, by making it VR or something like La Maison used to be, letting people who are immersionists that never leave the pod still join in.
* A discussion/debate channel similar to the Summit or similar venues, for these people. Not needing to dodge/face Sansha/Blood Raider/Empire Loyalists/Slavers at every turn and letting debates either turn hostile or just be the same old tit for tat that never goes anywhere. Discussing which lines can't be crossed, who is doing what, getting your own organization or people promoted and so on.
I am not proposing a new corp, or new alliance. There's already too much fragmentation going on, and starting even more from scratch at this point is almost entirely pointless without even having some kind of cohesion or common interest to begin with.
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there is a bar that has some hardcore anti slavers in it poke me when im on dme or ja'li and remind me to tell u the name as drunk and cba to log back on
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Using Backstage for the OOC stuff sounds like a good idea. Having an IC forum or even forum space set up on a different forum or even maybe putting in an IC section to this one would be super cool.
A harliner/matari loyalis bar would be good as well. I say /matari loyalists cause it would be good not to exclude them and just make it exclusive to the hardliners. For starters you might be able to get some of the "fence sitters"to join the cause, and it couldnt hurt to strenghten ties either.
A discussion/debate channel would be good to get everyone on the same page and strenghten ties in the community. I would also suggest having public debates or presentations in the New Eden Assembly or maybe even try to get the hardliners a seat on the council. It would be good for publicity and also might sway a few people to the cause.
I dont see a huge problem with making a new corp or having new corps spawn from this idea. I dont really keep up with the latest alliance news, but iirc D'K is mainly a 0.0 corp(correct me if im wrong on that) which isnt for everyone.
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Just a word of warning that I can't stress enough, there is a great deal of political differences between abolitionists. Often all abolitionists are lumped together as Minmatar Republic loyalists, but the fact is that many of us despise the Republic. Also some of us value the freedom of Minmatar slaves over those of other races. There will be many disagreements on methods, priorities and levels of violence. Getting all of us into a group may very well be a powder keg waiting to happen. :twisted:
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Just a word of warning that I can't stress enough, there is a great deal of political differences between abolitionists. Often all abolitionists are lumped together as Minmatar Republic loyalists, but the fact is that many of us despise the Republic. Also some of us value the freedom of Minmatar slaves over those of other races. There will be many disagreements on methods, priorities and levels of violence. Getting all of us into a group may very well be a powder keg waiting to happen. :twisted:
And places like the Summit and so on aren't? Bars filled with slavers and anti-slavers alike? Hell yes there'd be differences in opinions, priorities and so on, but if there wasn't it'd be ridiculously dull.
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even the Caldari are Empire supporters, even if they personally outlaw slavery in the State.
The Caldari like to have trading partners. They generally don't care what the trading partner does in the trading partner's space.
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Just a word of warning that I can't stress enough, there is a great deal of political differences between abolitionists. Often all abolitionists are lumped together as Minmatar Republic loyalists, but the fact is that many of us despise the Republic. Also some of us value the freedom of Minmatar slaves over those of other races. There will be many disagreements on methods, priorities and levels of violence. Getting all of us into a group may very well be a powder keg waiting to happen. :twisted:
As Miz already stated, if there werent differences it would be kinda dull. What I'm saying is that even the most hardcore of hardcore abolitionists would be open to at least working with the others if it serves their own agenda as well. The character Im thining up atm is mostly gonna be concerned with Matari slaves than other races, but at the same time if she helps to free other races from slavery as well its still hurting the Amarr which makes it at least worth it in her book.
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There are some things I find hillarious with some anti-slavery characters, and that is how they hold themselves to groups like the Blood Raiders or Angel Cartel. Mizh is right in the idea that being a hard-core anti-slaver you get villified by many, mostly because it seems convenient to many of the 'anti-slavery' players (who are effectively only anti-Imperial or anti-Amarrian, for the racist goodies that brings) to forget that those two factions are also very hard-liner slavers. I've seen many anti-slavery players being buddies with their friendly next-door Cartel operative because both dislike the Empire, conveniently forgetting that the Cartel is a hard-core slaver operation as well.
If your going to work on re-vitalizing hard-liner anti-slavers (and I'll wish you the best of luck in this, honestly) then your standards will have to be pretty tight. How tight is likely also to be a hot topic.
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I've seen many anti-slavery players being buddies with their friendly next-door Cartel operative because both dislike the Empire, conveniently forgetting that the Cartel is a hard-core slaver operation as well.
The Republic Security Services makes backroom deals with the Cartel all the time, it's perfectly in character ;)
Like I was saying about political differences. Everyone has their own motivations.
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A good number of the Gallente characters seem to be solidly anti-slavery.
I do not think the Matari (or Caldari) necessarily have the empire-level ability to take the moral high-road.
The Matari see themselves only a few missteps from being right were they were only a few hundred years ago, slaves of the Amarr. The problem for the Matari isn't necessarily slavery as a concept, but rather them being the slaves.
Since the Matari are more concerned with ensuring they are not subjugated by the Amarr, they can make deals with other lesser evils, like the Cartel. The Matari might even sell Amarr to the Cartel!
We talk about how evil the Empire is, but from the perspective of either the Federation or Empire, both the Republic and State are havens for those with looser morals and willing to take the low-road to achieve their goals. The Empire's and Federation's heroes are those who uphold and are exemplars for their moral codes.
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It is more difficult to organize a group to be anti-something than pro-something. Being anti-something makes you dependent one someone else for your play.
There are very few pro-slavery or even slavery interested people. Most Amarr loyalist for example only pay lipservice to the concept of slavery. They are only officially a slaver because they are loyal to the Empire, but they don't do anything with slaves.
It doesn't help that the game doesn't allow you to do anything with slaves. You can carry them around in your hold for anti-slavers to get as a reward when they destroy you, that is about it.
In my experience a significant number of players in a supposedly anti-slaver alliance like U'K also couldn't care less about slaves. And most certainly won't want to risk their ship to save a few.
You could shoot at Amarr NPC haulers and free slaves from them, but as far as being really anti-slavery, there are few things you can really initiate against other players that are more than merely another arbitrary motivation to pew stuff in space.
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The Republic Security Services makes backroom deals with the Cartel all the time, it's perfectly in character ;)
Indeed. :)
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~Slavers~ often give me the 'I don't own any slaves line'. Or if they do own any, they minimize it or brush it off as no big deal which isn't in line with my perceptions of Imperial Amarrians. Based on the attitudes of Amarr NPC agents and historical slaver cultures, you'd think there would be more concern over Amarrian's rights to own slaves. Indeed virtually no capsuleers had any problem with the Empress' emancipation despite news articles saying some Amarrian holders were in uproar over it. I wish there were more hardline slavers and less politically correct diet coke slavers. Things like escaped slave hunter corps would be awesome. If more people actually expressed interest in slavery, likely more people would express interest in abolitionism.
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~Slavers~ often give me the 'I don't own any slaves line'. Or if they do own any, they minimize it or brush it off as no big deal which isn't in line with my perceptions of Imperial Amarrians. Based on the attitudes of Amarr NPC agents and historical slaver cultures, you'd think there would be more concern over Amarrian's rights to own slaves. Indeed virtually no capsuleers had any problem with the Empress' emancipation despite news articles saying some Amarrian holders were in uproar over it. I wish there were more hardline slavers and less politically correct diet coke slavers. Things like escaped slave hunter corps would be awesome. If more people actually expressed interest in slavery, likely more people would express interest in abolitionism.
Welcome to EVE, a game where what is awesome in-character is mottled dow by politically-correct tongue-in-check RL ideals.
I'd LOVE to see a Federal corp take 'orders' from the SDII (Black Eagles) and be politically hard-core anti-Separatism /anti-State co-operation etc. Everyone loves being Federal Paladins. Where are all the Blackguards who murder and kill for the Federation? Where are all the guys who ENFORCE Federal ideals like anti-slavery? If I ran a Hard-core Federal corp I'd go out of my way to deck folks like PIE and I-RED in turn and order to get action and DEMAND that we on't play niceties with our idealogical enemies, as well as political. Not to mention how ILF would be in for a ride.
There are few hard-core anti slaver corps. Few hard-core slaver corps. And as far as I'm aware none of the above mentioned stuff.
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I'd LOVE to see a Federal corp take 'orders' from the SDII (Black Eagles)
Hardcore Black Eagle RPers would be hawt. Scary Gallente KGB agents.
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So, I get the vibe that U'K (or whatever they are now) and EM aren't what they used to be? What a shame.
When I started out in Eve, with the possible exception of Jericho Fraction, the precursors of U'K and EM and their opposites in PIE and 1PG pretty much were Eve RP. The Minmatar-Amarr conflict was always strong and centre-stage.
As an ex-U'K guy, I am quite curious as to what has happened with them. Anyone care to give me a précis?
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So, I get the vibe that U'K (or whatever they are now) and EM aren't what they used to be? What a shame.
When I started out in Eve, with the possible exception of Jericho Fraction, the precursors of U'K and EM and their opposites in PIE and 1PG pretty much were Eve RP. The Minmatar-Amarr conflict was always strong and centre-stage.
As an ex-U'K guy, I am quite curious as to what has happened with them. Anyone care to give me a précis?
I can't really speak for U'K, but what do you think EM used to be?
I've only been in EM for 18 months or so, but it's still very much an RP alliance. From OOC chats I've had with members of SF and U'K, we seem more RP than either of those organisations, but not having been in either of those alliances I can't say that from personal experience.
As for the Amarr-Minmatar conflict, as far as I can tell, EM stopped wanting to play pre-arranged wars[1], and given our self-described role as "Defenders of the Republic" there wasn't much IC motivation to invade Amarr space. We still shoot Amarr when we can catch them, but I'd have to say that a lot of our focus is more on troublesome pirate groups inside the Republic than Amarr groups who are outside the Republic. We support the TLF militia, but given the mechanics of FW and how they integrate with Alliances, that's more through logistics than actual fighting.
Does that help?
[1] Reading through some of the old forum posts about OOC rules of engagement makes me go "WTF?" quite a lot. These days, if we war-dec someone it's because we think (IC) that we can change something. Wars as instruments of policy rather than as entertainment.
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I can't really speak for U'K, but what do you think EM used to be?
Active. :P
I was getting the impression that EM had gone quiet or somewhat inactive. Glad to hear that they are alive and kicking.
In retrospect, there always was a significant number of people in U'K that opted out of interacting IC with the wider population: preferring to keep RP internal or light other than actions in space. Perhaps this attitude is one that has prevailed?
As for RoE, well, I felt that they tended to be a necessity where you had long-running wars. A conflict that lasts a few weeks or even a few months can just be played out, but a conflict that spans years needs some kind of OOC give-and-take to avoid it collapsing into a dramafest. Rules of engagement were mostly about avoiding metagaming and trolling: stuff that can truly wreck an otherwise enjoyable war.
Some people are happy with the idea of victory by any means, but I personally was always in the camp that felt that a victory through OOG means would be a hollow one and that you should win in-game and in space. Or lose by the same means. For me, it was always the attraction of the RP corps and RP conflicts that they generally involved a higher standard of gaming than the server population at large.
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I don't know that tending to RP with people within EM is an attitude, so much. It seems like it is a sort of natural tendency. They're the people who are right there, you have easy access to them, and you have a lot of reasons to interact with them.
I know when I joined EM, my RPing outside of the alliance dropped off a lot. That wasn't because I didn't want to RP with people outside EM, it was because I was doing a lot of RPing inside EM. I think when you are part of an organization that has an active internal RP culture, it is actually RPing outside it that takes a conscious decision and effort. At least, it's been that way for me: I realized that I hadn't done much RP outside of EM in a while, and decided to make an effort to change that.
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What Ulphus and Silver Night say. :) We RP and are (still) very much a pro-Matari, pro-Republic alliance.
One thing that might be too obvious, but maybe still useful to point out to the general RP public is that EM public channel is IC, and ICly ...a public comm channel for contacting EM.
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As for U'k/D'k. CCP ending events and ignoring RP in general for the longest time hurt abolitionists a bit. We still have Admiral Karishal Muritor's corpse in a safe place, waiting for when CCP lets us return him to Pator. Also faction war kinda replaced a lot of Amarr/Minmatar RP. Alliances have little place in FW no matter how much we bitch to CCP.
D'K has a new executor, who is just as RP friendly as Karn was. He has some good plans in the works to expand our RP. It should be interesting. But no, we have never been as immersive as EM. Council still bases decisions on our RP though. We don't take it lightly.
Wanoah, there's still a lot of faces here you might remember, still doing the same actions > words RP.
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I was getting the impression that EM had gone quiet or somewhat inactive. Glad to hear that they are alive and kicking.
Well, we're still active :) - We spent most of the first 6 months of this year in active wars (the PIE war is mostly ignored internally), including a couple of weeks where I think we had 11 wars running. It makes us a bit busy :p
In retrospect, there always was a significant number of people in U'K that opted out of interacting IC with the wider population: preferring to keep RP internal or light other than actions in space. Perhaps this attitude is one that has prevailed?
Yeah, there's enough internal RP that we don't have to go seeking external RP out all that much, and personally, a lot of the venues for external RP were full of slavers and pirates, and it became difficult for me to justify going to those places, especially after we finally set VETO red.
And what Silver said. EM's internal RP cup runneth over, and all the casual RP I could want is already there. There needs to be a reason to go out and find more, and I haven't seen much reason recently. Of course, not going out much means not meeting new people, which means not finding reasons, which means not going out... it's a feedback loop.
Does anyone have any suggestions for breaking out of that feedback loop? Or is it not something that bites most people?
As for RoE, well, I felt that they tended to be a necessity where you had long-running wars. A conflict that lasts a few weeks or even a few months can just be played out, but a conflict that spans years needs some kind of OOC give-and-take to avoid it collapsing into a dramafest. Rules of engagement were mostly about avoiding metagaming and trolling: stuff that can truly wreck an otherwise enjoyable war.
I did find some old old threads about trying not to blob each other to get "good fights", but that seemed to die due to the fog of war. If you bring 2 battlecruisers and two cruisers, and I only see the two BC, then you might have 2 BS and 2BC, so I'll bring enough to deal with that. And when you see 10 people in local, you don't know that 6 of them are AFK, so you get real cautious, so when you see 2 BS and 2 BC, you think there might be another 6 ships around as well and start to feel a bit blobbed.
That seemed to make for big misunderstandings back then. Recent members don't even know that sort of agreement might exist.
Some people are happy with the idea of victory by any means, but I personally was always in the camp that felt that a victory through OOG means would be a hollow one and that you should win in-game and in space. Or lose by the same means. For me, it was always the attraction of the RP corps and RP conflicts that they generally involved a higher standard of gaming than the server population at large.
These days, the general EM policy seems to be that IC we want to win. We're not going to have gentlemen's agreements OOC that change IC decisions, because that ruins immersion for us. We will have OOC agreements about OOC decisions though, if the distinction makes sense? We're not interested in getting other people to stop playing because they aren't having fun, but IC we want to drive pirates out of the Republic (go pirate in Amarr space!) or get them to stop pirating, and we will try (IC) to be as effective as we can at that. We won't try crashing their vent server in the middle of a fight, or hacking their forums, or other OOG things, but if we can get your alliance to go somewhere else by blowing up your hisec mission runners, then we're totally there.
There is still a bit of room for OOC considerations affecting IC decisions, but it has to be plausible and true to the characters involved.
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Does anyone have any suggestions for breaking out of that feedback loop? Or is it not something that bites most people?
Well, like I mentioned, it was something I noticed with my character, but Silver (and most associated alts) probably have less of an IC issue being involved with pirates and such.
Avoiding pirate bars and stuff, there is The Summit (which I know isn't always so great either) or the New Eden Assembly which is a lot more structured.
I think that promoting some of the channels that EM people regularly use but which are not much known outside the alliance, even though they are public, might be an option too.
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As I recall the thing that started the war with PIE was a raid into Amarrian high sec with The Wolves of Pator back when the old events where up & running.
Our take was that we where recovering people that had been abducted from the Republic by rogue slavers. PIE held that we where interfering with legitimate Imperial trade.
So, if someone gave the alliance a lead on abducted citizens that could be rescued by a foray into the Empire I wonder if we might not jump at it? Those of us who can still do that without attracting fire from the faction cops that is.
Which seems to dovetail back into the OP a bit.
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Well, I feel reassured at least. Thread had this tone that the Minnie bloc were basically gone to all intents and purposes and I was prepping for sadness. :P
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And lets not get all crazy and say EM isnt anti-slaver. EM is a lot of things to a lot of people. There is a constant struggle within the alliance as to whether its pro-Republic or pro-Matari, and what those two things even mean.
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And lets not get all crazy and say EM isnt anti-slaver.
Umm, who said we weren't?
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It's one of the things I'm more sad about is that EM never appears in any of the public RP areas... pretty much kills the chances of cooperative RP with them. :(
As for the anti-slavery hardliner questions...
It's my opinion that the kind of RP described in the OP is limited in its wide appeal simply because of the scale of RP that it locks you out of.
Amarrians of any sort? Even if they don't support slavery, if they support even some parts of the Empire, you can't RP with them.
Calldari loyalists? Allies of the Empire, can't RP with them.
Republic loyalists? If they talk to anyone in the Empire in the hopes of peace (and many do) they're slaver allies. Can't RP with them.
Gallente loyalists? Same as above.
Angels/Sanshas/Blooders? All hold slaves. Serpentis work with the Angels, so they support slavery too.
Guristas are about the only group you CAN talk to, and many of them are willing to talk to slavers... which puts them out of the question as well.
What I'm saying here is that if what you want is someone who never, ever talks to anyone who supports slavery in a remotely friendly manner... it's really, really hard to find allies, simply because there are so few groups left you can talk to and nobody wants to be locked out of so muc hRP like that. EVE is, as someone said, a fundamentally social game.
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Well, I think you can RP with them, it's just going to be as enemies.
Of course, in some RP, a good enemy is worth a half dozen mediocre friends in my experience. RP is ultimately story driven, at least to some extent - and stories thrive on conflict.
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It's one of the things I'm more sad about is that EM never appears in any of the public RP areas... pretty much kills the chances of cooperative RP with them. :(
It's rare, but not unheard of; but then, how much do you expect the social circles of Amarrian slave holders and republic loyalists to overlap in a believable universe?
And what sort of Co-op RP did you have in mind?
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It's rare, but not unheard of; but then, how much do you expect the social circles of Amarrian slave holders and republic loyalists to overlap in a believable universe?
A few of your members used to come to The Last Gate at times, and I was always surprised the PVBOS Interstellar Grill (Now called "The Broken Piano") didn't become more popular witht EM. Esna became friends with a couple of them.
And what sort of Co-op RP did you have in mind?
Without derailing the thread, I'll say that Esna has a vested interest in returning freed slaves to the Republic under two circumstances - one, if they are slaves who he truly can't make comfortable in his service, and two, if they were captured illegally (playing up this end since he got into FW, with the warzone providing a sweet area for illegal slaving rings to work in). Problem so far has been finding people to hand them to.
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A few of your members used to come to The Last Gate at times, and
Yeah, and then we set VETO red. It felt like it wouldn't be appropriate any more, at least to me.
I was always surprised the PVBOS Interstellar Grill (Now called "The Broken Piano") didn't become more popular witht EM. Esna became friends with a couple of them.
Have you been to M-MD3B. It's a shithole... fifteen jumps from my usual pub, and last time I went down there the station was camped... lot of trouble for a beer.
Without derailing the thread, I'll say that Esna has a vested interest in returning freed slaves to the Republic under two circumstances - one, if they are slaves who he truly can't make comfortable in his service, and two, if they were captured illegally (playing up this end since he got into FW, with the warzone providing a sweet area for illegal slaving rings to work in). Problem so far has been finding people to hand them to.
I'd try talking to someone in EM (IC). I don't think it's a secret that they've been involved in getting slaves out of the Empire in the past. It's not widely announced, y'know? There are other people out there too, but I don't want to blow their cover if they don't want me to.
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Amarrians of any sort? Even if they don't support slavery, if they support even some parts of the Empire, you can't RP with them.
Of course you can RP with them by hindering their operations, declaring war, hiring mercs on them, posting proganda against them or infiltrating them with spies.
RP is not only using your chat windows.
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T.R.I.A.D offer rewards and Loyalty Points for slave liberations - please see http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384464 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384464). That is an old thread which i had to re-create due to CCP locking it :(
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I was always surprised the PVBOS Interstellar Grill (Now called "The Broken Piano") didn't become more popular witht EM. Esna became friends with a couple of them.
Have you been to M-MD3B. It's a shithole... fifteen jumps from my usual pub, and last time I went down there the station was camped... lot of trouble for a beer.
Actually, yes. Repeatedly. Lived in GW for a bit; long story. However, I forget a lot that EM actually goes to the systems the RP bars are in (Esna tends to go their while I'm on the 15-jump trip to whatever system my mission objective is in, or while I'm sitting in Huola setting my planets, etc).
With regards to Silver Nights and Aodha Khan's responses to my statements, I should have probably added a modifier for clarity to those descriptions: My post was with reference to the probabilities of positive/alliied/cooperative RP(ers), as it seemed that's what the OP was looking for. Confrontational/cnflict RP is a whole different thing.
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I think there could be some more slavery/anti-slavery things done.
But i'm not sure if teh game mechanics are sufficient to allow it.
One of the things that appears in PF is the Illegal Slaver. That is, someone who takes slaves from outside the Empire. One of the Emperors outlawed that sort of thing.
There needs to be some people doing that sort of thing. Taking people from the Republic, or the Federation, and selling them as slaves.
Game mechanics might be tricky though, how would it work? purchase the things like dancers, tourists etc off the market?
And who is buying them? RP'ing that means the people doing it would be spending a fair sum, without necessarily being able to make anything back. Spending isk just to RP is a bit awkward, isn't it?
And then, with the Illegal Slaver, there is then the awkward RP to be had with the Imperial Paramilitary.
That is, pro-Empire Amarrians who are looking for Illegal Slavers, obviously, in non-Empire space. Upholding the Empire's Law as it were. And some of them might own slaves themselves. Legal ones, naturally.
Do the anti-slavers co-operate with the Imperials to hunt the Illegal Slavers? Is it a trap? Who is setting who up for what?
:o
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I think there could be some more slavery/anti-slavery things done.
But i'm not sure if teh game mechanics are sufficient to allow it.
The mechanics are very troublesome indeed. I have no doubt I could be shipping slaves out of the Republic for months before anyone would even noticing. And honestly, shipping slaves out of Republic space for no actual profit and without anything noticing is a very boring way to spend your gameplay.
The actual 'capture' of slaves is a large invisible and uninterruptable affair. The moving of slaves might be noticed. However, the last time I actually had someone scan me looking for slaves was over 3 years ago.
This means that anyone playing an illegal slaver should actually leak this info to those RP-ers that might oppose him in advance to get any kind of interactive playing going. Even then there need to be war-decs issued to prevent trouble with Concord for interceptions in high-sec.
EVE mechanics are largely geared to shooting each other, and not doing things with slaves. For most RP arcs I think up, the hardest part is always to find an active role and enjoyable role for other players to play.
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Does anyone have any suggestions for breaking out of that feedback loop? Or is it not something that bites most people?
It does bite me, at least.
Gradient was (is) my first corp. While EM is awesome, as a result I have less RP contacts outside EM than I perhaps would like, and not too much knowledge of possible places to get them. My character (a free Matari woman from a respectable clan) has little reason to want to frequent pirate and Amarr bars. :P
If there was a general Matari hangout place she would likely visit, and possibly become a repeat customer depending on if she found the atmosphere of the place to be to her taste. As I don't own any of the EM bar channels, I don't feel like I can volunteer them (at least without asking the players who do).
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I think there could be some more slavery/anti-slavery things done.
But i'm not sure if teh game mechanics are sufficient to allow it.
I'd really love to get more tools for the RP sandbox, for us to build our stories with.
The news items and other stuff we already get are great, mind you. I'd just love to get more in-game tools to make the world alive so we'd have more ability to make our own stories in addition to participating in stories CCP comes up with.
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I'd really love to get more tools for the RP sandbox, for us to build our stories with.
The news items and other stuff we already get are great, mind you. I'd just love to get more in-game tools to make the world alive so we'd have more ability to make our own stories in addition to participating in stories CCP comes up with.
What sorts of tools? What sorts of stories?
And shouldn't you be sleeping?
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I'd really love to get more tools for the RP sandbox, for us to build our stories with.
The news items and other stuff we already get are great, mind you. I'd just love to get more in-game tools to make the world alive so we'd have more ability to make our own stories in addition to participating in stories CCP comes up with.
What sorts of tools? What sorts of stories?
As an example, there has been an initiative to make it possible to free slaves or enslave people, to make the slaver/anti-slaver conflict more meaningful. Having the number of slaves taken/freed in a system affect the world in some way would be even cooler (maybe mission distribution?).
Another example might be a way to slowly over time affect the security status of certain systems to some degree. (for pirates/anti-pirates)
FW occupancy does nothing, standings do little. How about negative standings to a faction making them charge larger refining, market and repair fees?
Game development is hard, a lot of stuff sounds like nice ideas until you start to consider how it affects playability and balance, and/or try to come up with ways to abuse the system. ;)
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EvE is the ultimate sandbox, where using your mind can create possibilities. Now that CCP LIVE EVENTS are back in effect, i see lots of evolving coming through. I've been creating missions for rewards for obtaining slaves in an attempt to bring a 'feel' to achieving something out of freeing slaves and to bring some variety to the RP environment. The post to that, along with the actual mission/campaign itself can be seen at http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384464 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384464). I added it to the Player Driven Content forums on here with the complete description of the mission itself at http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1127.0 (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1127.0)
I also made a suggestion to how Slaves could be manipulated and other citizen types could be converted into other types and affecting standings etc. That thread can be found at http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283260&page=1 (http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283260&page=1)(since locked due to inactivity).
I'm taking a fleet out tonight of allsorts of players from different corporations to hit Amarr hisec systems where most of us (the Minmatar Faction Warfare members) will get the added thrill of being chased by the Amarr Navy NPC's :)
Our objectives are to shoot down the NPC haulers (the ones you see coming in and out of station) to get their slave cargo content and bring it back safely with added rewards depending on outcome of the event. The added thrill factor there is that you lose standing against the NPC corporation which own the NPC transport.
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woops double post