Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Aria Jenneth on 18 Jan 2013, 11:42
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Is there anything out there that anyone has read on whether DUSTies get to keep their original faces? What they look like under their visors?
I don't think I can explain the full mechanics of why I ask this question without violating my NDA, but, as you might gather from the DUST dev blogs, we can burn through clones at a fearful rate. I know that some of the early stuff suggested they would be bald. Is there anything solid on this, in Templar One or elsewhere?
(It makes a substantial difference in what Tarquin walking into The Last Gate would look like.)
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I think they're otherwise normal beneath the mask. The original Templars were said to be pale and sickly-looking, but the DUSTies we see now use different technology than the stuff from Templar One. Check out the spoiler.
[spoiler](http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Seriphyn/DUSTsoldiers.png)[/spoiler]
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I have serious doubts about the canonical nature of that shot. Wasn't that from The Infamous Issue of "Fearless"?
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Yeah, but there's also an E3 shot of an unmasked DUSTie laying around. I'm pretty sure they're normal beneath though...
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There was at one point a Chronicle which described the training process for the DUST troopers, and one thing that was mentioned is that they were all inserted into a standardized, mass-cloned body tailored to be an 'optimized soldier' (notably, the body was male while one recruit was female - she insisted on joining the program regardless).
However, this chronicle seems to have vanished when I went looking for it. It's not clear to me if this represents an official retcon, or merely a brief removal from wherever it was - another chronicle, 'Morning Prayer', also briefly vanished before returning.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Stranded_(Part_7) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Stranded_(Part_7))
"Each of their faces mirrors my own; the same cadaverous skin, bald head and lifeless eyes."
Unclear if that means facial features, or just appearance.
"At least our voices are unique, I think to myself."
This is the chron Esna was thinking of, I believe. It mentions "stock clones", for budgetary reasons. It seems to be Republic, as a couple of the bods are/were Valklears.
These may however, be the prototype troopers, while the Republic gets things in order, and DUST troopers proper, may keep their own faces, and have variations in appearance, with non-stock clones, once the budget is no longer an issue.
Would think the psychology of seeing identical faces all the time would cause more problems than it solves logistics wise, no?
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I highly doubt that DUSTies get to keep their original faces, considering how they get reanimated by an entire stockpile of stock and similar clones. It's probably a really good reason why their ingame avatars remain masked.
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It is, Louella. They must have renamed it; thank you.
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Ah-- still need to finish reading that series. Thank you for the confirmation.
Davlos:
That was my thinking. Much nearer to true infomorph-dom, then-- one consciousness inhabiting a series of non-individualized bodies. Not that Tarquin's likely to see things the same way Aria does.
On the other hand, if you look at the screenshots, there are female DUST soldiers.
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Ah-- still need to finish reading that series. Thank you for the confirmation.
Davlos:
That was my thinking. Much nearer to true infomorph-dom, then-- one consciousness inhabiting a series of non-individualized bodies. Not that Tarquin's likely to see things the same way Aria does.
On the other hand, if you look at the screenshots, there are female DUST soldiers.
I think of it as a concession that was made so that the playerbase wouldn't get freaked out by the idea that their female special snowflake was going to get their consciousness transferred into a genderless genetic platform.
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Or it was just, you know, allowing female avatars like every other avatar-based game in existence :P
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Can someone explain to me why Capsuleers get all these ridiculously customized options for our clones, but DUST soldiers can't? We don't have hundreds of soldiers per battlefield. We have at most... what is it... 64 total? Is a War Barge not able to hold enough clones for 64 soldiers to keep 'respawning'? Holding enough clones to keep the battle going is explicitly what they are designed to do.
If not, why is a supercap able to hold enough clones to reanimate entire fleets of capsuleers on the field over and over and over again, with all their knick knacks and stuff? The only thing they can't do is hold enough ships... but they can certainly hold enough clones and capsules. Or is this where we handwave clone vat modules and say no they can't?
The logistics of Capsuleers doing it is even worse than the logistics of DUST clones doing it.
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Capsuleer clones are hideously expensive, customized things; where the cost is carried by a fabulously wealthy capsuleer, who will be having a very bad day if he loses more than one or two in a short period of time.
DUST clones are expected to be lost on the order of a few dozen per DUST trooper, per major battle, on a budget that's (currently) a tiny fraction of a capsuleer's wealth. They're kept as generic as possible so that any DUST trooper can incarnate in any one clone. (Of the right gender, apparently.)
So a cost-saving and logistics question after all, really. The clone budget of someone who operates an assault rifle rather than a starship simply isn't going to be nearly as high.
..huh. One bit of potential weirdness, though - do capital clone bays only hold jump clones, or can they hold your "medical" clone contract as well?
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On the gender issue, some scifi authors have though that if you are female and jump into a male body, the differences will at least make you feel off balance and sick due to brain chemistry and body cycles.
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Someone also helped me understand in OOC chat why this is. apparently, at the end of a battle, all the clones are nuked anyways. They also pointed out that DUST soldiers may very well start showing up with higher quality clones for social purposes.
Also, yes, clone vats work for jump clones too.
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I think the lack of face thing is more a beta deal than PF one.
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Do we know how this relates to the old idea for podders that maintaining the original sex, race and general appearance was important to psychological balance?
There's much less concern about protecting DUSTies' sense of self, from what I can tell: they're much more like re-usable trained-but-otherwise-fairly-generic consciousnesses to go in disposable bodies, yes?
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Capsuleers are photocopied into new clones; the old self dies and a new one is manufactured, if we were to ignore any spiritual connotations.
DUST troopers download from one body to another, so the 'same' consciousness is always persisting. It's possible that their 'original body' is kept and maintained, otherwise what is the point of them being mercenaries for the best money if they can't enjoy that money? Edit; or a premium body they enjoy human vanity in.
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I'm not sure that I get the distinction, Ghost: want to have another go at describing it?
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I'm not sure that I get the distinction, Ghost: want to have another go at describing it?
My roleplay on the subject may be greatly clouding how I perceive it OOCly.
In essence, a Capsuleer mind is printed out onto a clone from previous data. When that clone dies, the new data (what that clone has experienced) is sent out and saved. That data gets printed out into a clone, repeat. You can argue that that particular iteration of that Capsuleer is a 'new person'. Each time you clone, your old soul goes on and a new one is put into the cloned body - kinda deal.
DUST Troopers do not clone like that. One consciousness, one soul, always exists. They get pulled from their body and put into a new one. They aren't printed out from neural scanner data.
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In essence, a Capsuleer mind is printed out onto a clone from previous data. When that clone dies, the new data (what that clone has experienced) is sent out and saved. That data gets printed out into a clone, repeat. [....]
DUST Troopers do not clone like that. One consciousness, one soul, always exists. They get pulled from their body and put into a new one. They aren't printed out from neural scanner data.
It feels like the main distinction here of that podder cloning is reactive (Clone A dies, so Clone B is activated with a streamed, quantum-intertwined or backup version of the consciousness) while DUSTie cloning is often proactive (we need Clone B in a particular location, so we'll pull the consciousness out of Clone A).
I suspect I'm out of practice with the concepts, though.
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Ghost.
Where does it say that the 'mind data' gets saved?
Doesn't the fluid router burner thingamabob guarantee that there is no saving involved?
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Ghost.
Where does it say that the 'mind data' gets saved?
Doesn't the fluid router burner thingamabob guarantee that there is no saving involved?
I make use of the word save much like one would have a save in a video game - a back up point.
A Capsule gets breached, the Neuroscanner scan burns the Capsuleer's mind at the same time as a lethal injection is administered. The scan data is sent to the cloning bay, where it is traditionally immediately printed into a clone and the Capsuleer wakes up again.
I make specific mention of 'saving' because the consciousness is not the same between clones using this method. The neural scanner 'saves' a copy of the Capsuleer's brain, destroying it in the process, and then sends out the data. This data is printed out, and traditionally not kept in storage after the new clone activates. This new clone is just a saved copy of that particular Capsuleer, where the one that got neural burned is killed.
It's entirely possible my specific terminology is conveying the wrong meaning.
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Looks like the new trailer answers the question that, yes, DUSTies are just like everyone else beneath the helmet.
For that, I'm glad.
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It does seem to imply that, unless they're only there in spirit or those are actually capsuleers.
Pity. The result is more photogenic, but it's also MUCH more difficult to explain coherently.
Also, it renders obsolete some of the descing I've already done for Tarquin.
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There is another possibility, I think ?
DUST people, they hang around waiting for a contract, then as soon as one's found, whoosh, they have their mind transferred to the combat zone, into a ready clone.
And then during battle it's all pewpewpew, and such, with dead bodies dissolving, and people zipping into new clones all the time. Then at the end of the battle, whoosh, DUST people transfer back to their waiting area.
So while a DUST person looks normal while they're off duty as it were, when on duty, they could be anyone under that helmet. Or indeed, any thing.
Combat clones not needing to be aesthetically pleasing also means another thing, possibly. When the clone is only needed in combat, then it doesn't need to be able to unfasten its armour or take its helmet off. Which means the armour suits don't need to have zippers or any other kind of fasteners.
Maybe.
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So while a DUST person looks normal while they're off duty as it were, when on duty, they could be anyone under that helmet. Or indeed, any thing.
Combat clones not needing to be aesthetically pleasing also means another thing, possibly. When the clone is only needed in combat, then it doesn't need to be able to unfasten its armour or take its helmet off. Which means the armour suits don't need to have zippers or any other kind of fasteners.
Maybe.
Oouu, grimdark. I like.
Especially the "any thing", without zippers. You don't want to know what's inside the armor. :P
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That would mean that, during deployment, DUST'ers lose any semblance of 'humanity' they might have had, transferring from their 'human' main bodies into a glorified piece of biological, military hardware - a plain, faceless, hairless, featureless humanoid piece of flesh with a non-removable piece of armor and gear applied to it.
If this was true, that piece of meat inside the armor may as well have been a fully cybernetic machine run by a brain-in-a-jar inside the head or - for maximum protection - inside the torso, right next to the power-source, surrounded by reinforced armor plating and the electronic systems needed to operate it.
Ofc, a blank clone is likely considerably cheaper, and thus more realistic, if less durable in combat.
I think the 'featureless meat' scenario is less likely than the more 'standard' clone, with distinct faces and hair and so on being on the battlefield, however. If the clone was a cheap, featureless lump of mass-produced meat they would likely have not stopped there - why let it have weaknesses like being able to feel pain, having limited strength, endurance and stamina, and so on? Depending on how the game-play and lore works, DUST'ers could have had their 'battle' bodies modified to be super-human, along the lines of the 'a life in three acts' chronicle. Have not played DUST however so I don't know, do players get the feeling they are 'superior' soldiers or just your regular human trooper that can be replaced in new clone bodies all the time?
I got the impression, personally, that the only thing special with a DUST'er is their clone status, letting them learn from thousands of battles without really dying for good. In theory then, any Federal Marine, State Corporate Trooper, Kameira, Vaklear, Cyber Knight etc. are of a higher 'quality' but ofc, mortal. At least to start with, and also depending a little on gear and training.
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Again.
Kinaesthetic sense.
If your meatbag is too different from the one you are used to using then it will take time for you to adjust.
Which might explain lag, people getting stuck to walls and all FPS related problems.
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Getting better. DUST has been praised for actually explaining the re-spawn mechanic, now they might explain lag too xD
Except that if some guys have lag and some don't, are they using different types of clones? Don't think it will work.
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So ... having finished reading the DUST fiction (took me bloody long enough) (... only I seem to still have gotten in before it could be finished), it looks as though the "look-alike" nature of the clones in the "Stranded" stories is a matter of choice by the organizations running the DUST operatives, not a practical necessity. The fact that they transferred a female character into such a stock clone, yet we have female variants of the DUST suits, seems to strongly suggest that clones are now more personalized.
Well. I'll need to think carefully about Tarquin's exact appearance under his helmet. I hope CCP gives us an opportunity to actually design faces at some point.
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So in next buil, Uprising, we are finally about to get the brand new character creation tool.
So yes, Mercs will have nice face. Maybe only ones social clone will look pretty, though... On the ground using cheap stock clones makes more sense, and follows DUST chronicles' description.