Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Saede Riordan on 07 Jan 2013, 05:35
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I know there's some mission/complex dialogue for rogue drones where they say things like 'why do you hate me?' I know of at least one instance of drones acting in this manner mechanically from Scherezad. Does anyone have a copy of this or a similar instance in their logs and if so can I have them?
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The only thing I remember is in "Attack of the Drones l4", where drones say "brzzbrzzz more prey brrzzz"
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The only thing I remember is in "Attack of the Drones l4", where drones say "brzzbrzzz more prey brrzzz"
This. Never heard anything like what your describing, so can't help you.
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From the general technology section of EVE here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Technology_of_New_Eden
"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."
So according to PF, if a true AI is cognizant and self-reflective enough to be asking humans why they hate it, its likely hoping they lower their guard enough so it can kill them.
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From the general technology section of EVE here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Technology_of_New_Eden
"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."
So according to PF, if a true AI is cognizant and self-reflective enough to be asking humans why they hate it, its likely hoping they lower their guard enough so it can kill them.
I can understand that there probably isn't an emergent AI capable of that level of metacognition, but there are definitely other types of AIs who are at least human-level in intelligence: uploaded people.
Todo Kirkinen is the main example, but I remember that there is also a mission chain involving a mad scientist who "defects" to the drones and is uploaded into... an infested dominix unless I'm mistaken.
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From the general technology section of EVE here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Technology_of_New_Eden
"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."
So according to PF, if a true AI is cognizant and self-reflective enough to be asking humans why they hate it, its likely hoping they lower their guard enough so it can kill them.
I can understand that there probably isn't an emergent AI capable of that level of metacognition, but there are definitely other types of AIs who are at least human-level in intelligence: uploaded people.
Todo Kirkinen is the main example, but I remember that there is also a mission chain involving a mad scientist who "defects" to the drones and is uploaded into... an infested dominix unless I'm mistaken.
Thats entirely true. But thats why hes a "mad scientist". Hes not sane. Thus the first point stands.
RE: Todo Kirkinen
"Todo Kirkinen is the eccentric founder of Zainou BioTech and the first man to have his mind transferred into a machine. His headquarters are described as a combination of a mad scientist's lab and a jungle zoo."
"Eccentric" is what you call crazy people when theyre rich and powerful.
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I assume that New Eden has very good expert systems (such as AIMEDs, the AI doctors). So, a Rogue Drone might well have repurposed some kind of a command interface for simple communication, but that is not yet proof of sentience. Even systems like VILAMO (in "that book") aren't probably having human-level capabilities in general, while their abilities in limited areas might well be superhuman.
So, a simple AI doctor might be able to diagnose a wealth of diseases (we already have that kind of medical expert systems, except that they still require a human to operate), but it probably does not have the capabilities to talk about the weather. Similarly, a rogue drone might be capable of asking the reason why it is being attacked, but even if it got an answer, is it capable of processing that? (Well, ingame not of course. In fiction? Perhaps, depending on how it is programmed and whether or not that programming has been overwritten.)
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Well, I know at least one instance of it happening in the PF. I'm not sure what that says or even if I can find proof of it since Schere doesn't have the logs. I'm looking though.
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I know that they sometimes (or used to) spout out binary that would translate to stuff - that may be what you're thinking of? Unfortunately I don't have any logs. If you look at some rogue drone mission guides, they probably have it in there though?
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From the general technology section of EVE here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Technology_of_New_Eden
"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."
So according to PF, if a true AI is cognizant and self-reflective enough to be asking humans why they hate it, its likely hoping they lower their guard enough so it can kill them.
I can understand that there probably isn't an emergent AI capable of that level of metacognition, but there are definitely other types of AIs who are at least human-level in intelligence: uploaded people.
Todo Kirkinen is the main example, but I remember that there is also a mission chain involving a mad scientist who "defects" to the drones and is uploaded into... an infested dominix unless I'm mistaken.
That's the infamous "New Frontiers" L3 chain with neut and web towers and crazy spawns.
There's another chain called "The Anomaly" that involves some people vs. rogue drones stuff as well.
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I don't believe that rogue drones are evolved to a human level of consciousness yet. Mostly animal instincts (through hive minds) and an emerging consciousness that seem to think like a little child / infant most of the time, depending on the hives.
Unless though, of course, some hidden rogue drone societies exist somewhere else that are a lot more evolved than the clunky, hungry things we see in missions and all around ingame...
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From the general technology section of EVE here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Technology_of_New_Eden
"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."
So according to PF, if a true AI is cognizant and self-reflective enough to be asking humans why they hate it, its likely hoping they lower their guard enough so it can kill them.
I can understand that there probably isn't an emergent AI capable of that level of metacognition, but there are definitely other types of AIs who are at least human-level in intelligence: uploaded people.
Todo Kirkinen is the main example, but I remember that there is also a mission chain involving a mad scientist who "defects" to the drones and is uploaded into... an infested dominix unless I'm mistaken.
That's the infamous "New Frontiers" L3 chain with neut and web towers and crazy spawns.
There's another chain called "The Anomaly" that involves some people vs. rogue drones stuff as well.
Lies. The Anomaly is Event Horizon as a mission. There just happen to be some drones.
@Lyn: That's an IC debate though. I'm not trying to argue whether they are or are not that evolved. My character would have that argument, but the devs haven't said so I don't know. This is purely a quest for PF.
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I don't believe that rogue drones are evolved to a human level of consciousness yet. Mostly animal instincts (through hive minds) and an emerging consciousness that seem to think like a little child / infant most of the time, depending on the hives.
Unless though, of course, some hidden rogue drone societies exist somewhere else that are a lot more evolved than the clunky, hungry things we see in missions and all around ingame...
Trying to compare Rogue Drones to a "human level" is a terrible, terrible mistake. Instead, try considering them as an alien race that evolved... somewhere else. "Incomprehensible" is an apt descriptor. Totally different value system, thinking process, priorities, etc. Learning speed that outstrips ours by such ridiculous magnitudes that a single lowly drone could in ten seconds complete what for a human would be a lifetime of study and experimentation.
If we're gauging the power of their intellect, they can open spatial anomalies with their "minds" while we glorious capsuleers can at best amount to piloting armed lunchboxes toward them with our comparably pitiful capsule-dependent gray matter.
Oh, and if you were a newly birthed sentient species fleeing in fear from your vengeful creator, would you hang out in solar systems where they live? Or perhaps... some place in between... in my imagination, the rogues we encounter are the most rudimentary scuttling calculators, sent out as vanguards and scouts by some distant, malign and absolutely bizarre intellect, meant to get shot and die to allow said intellect to figure out how our weapons work.
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Trying to compare Rogue Drones to a "human level" is a terrible, terrible mistake. Instead, try considering them as an alien race that evolved... somewhere else. "Incomprehensible" is an apt descriptor. Totally different value system, thinking process, priorities, etc.
http://youtu.be/gaFZTAOb7IE
"the brain, is made out of meat"
"what.... does the thinking then?"
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some people barter for ship repairs with rogue drone hives. What is offered in barter isn't mentioned.
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I don't believe that rogue drones are evolved to a human level of consciousness yet. Mostly animal instincts (through hive minds) and an emerging consciousness that seem to think like a little child / infant most of the time, depending on the hives.
Unless though, of course, some hidden rogue drone societies exist somewhere else that are a lot more evolved than the clunky, hungry things we see in missions and all around ingame...
Trying to compare Rogue Drones to a "human level" is a terrible, terrible mistake. Instead, try considering them as an alien race that evolved... somewhere else. "Incomprehensible" is an apt descriptor. Totally different value system, thinking process, priorities, etc. Learning speed that outstrips ours by such ridiculous magnitudes that a single lowly drone could in ten seconds complete what for a human would be a lifetime of study and experimentation.
If we're gauging the power of their intellect, they can open spatial anomalies with their "minds" while we glorious capsuleers can at best amount to piloting armed lunchboxes toward them with our comparably pitiful capsule-dependent gray matter.
Oh, and if you were a newly birthed sentient species fleeing in fear from your vengeful creator, would you hang out in solar systems where they live? Or perhaps... some place in between... in my imagination, the rogues we encounter are the most rudimentary scuttling calculators, sent out as vanguards and scouts by some distant, malign and absolutely bizarre intellect, meant to get shot and die to allow said intellect to figure out how our weapons work.
I ♥ this description
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I don't believe that rogue drones are evolved to a human level of consciousness yet. Mostly animal instincts (through hive minds) and an emerging consciousness that seem to think like a little child / infant most of the time, depending on the hives.
Unless though, of course, some hidden rogue drone societies exist somewhere else that are a lot more evolved than the clunky, hungry things we see in missions and all around ingame...
Trying to compare Rogue Drones to a "human level" is a terrible, terrible mistake. Instead, try considering them as an alien race that evolved... somewhere else. "Incomprehensible" is an apt descriptor. Totally different value system, thinking process, priorities, etc. Learning speed that outstrips ours by such ridiculous magnitudes that a single lowly drone could in ten seconds complete what for a human would be a lifetime of study and experimentation.
If we're gauging the power of their intellect, they can open spatial anomalies with their "minds" while we glorious capsuleers can at best amount to piloting armed lunchboxes toward them with our comparably pitiful capsule-dependent gray matter.
Oh, and if you were a newly birthed sentient species fleeing in fear from your vengeful creator, would you hang out in solar systems where they live? Or perhaps... some place in between... in my imagination, the rogues we encounter are the most rudimentary scuttling calculators, sent out as vanguards and scouts by some distant, malign and absolutely bizarre intellect, meant to get shot and die to allow said intellect to figure out how our weapons work.
Citation needed.
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I think he has made some of the canon for rogue drones :D
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I don't believe that rogue drones are evolved to a human level of consciousness yet. Mostly animal instincts (through hive minds) and an emerging consciousness that seem to think like a little child / infant most of the time, depending on the hives.
Unless though, of course, some hidden rogue drone societies exist somewhere else that are a lot more evolved than the clunky, hungry things we see in missions and all around ingame...
Trying to compare Rogue Drones to a "human level" is a terrible, terrible mistake. Instead, try considering them as an alien race that evolved... somewhere else. "Incomprehensible" is an apt descriptor. Totally different value system, thinking process, priorities, etc. Learning speed that outstrips ours by such ridiculous magnitudes that a single lowly drone could in ten seconds complete what for a human would be a lifetime of study and experimentation.
If we're gauging the power of their intellect, they can open spatial anomalies with their "minds" while we glorious capsuleers can at best amount to piloting armed lunchboxes toward them with our comparably pitiful capsule-dependent gray matter.
Oh, and if you were a newly birthed sentient species fleeing in fear from your vengeful creator, would you hang out in solar systems where they live? Or perhaps... some place in between... in my imagination, the rogues we encounter are the most rudimentary scuttling calculators, sent out as vanguards and scouts by some distant, malign and absolutely bizarre intellect, meant to get shot and die to allow said intellect to figure out how our weapons work.
Citation needed.
http://tomczerniawski.wordpress.com/e-on-chronicle-the-eighth-plague/
Enjoy :p
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I don't believe that rogue drones are evolved to a human level of consciousness yet. Mostly animal instincts (through hive minds) and an emerging consciousness that seem to think like a little child / infant most of the time, depending on the hives.
Unless though, of course, some hidden rogue drone societies exist somewhere else that are a lot more evolved than the clunky, hungry things we see in missions and all around ingame...
Trying to compare Rogue Drones to a "human level" is a terrible, terrible mistake. Instead, try considering them as an alien race that evolved... somewhere else. "Incomprehensible" is an apt descriptor. Totally different value system, thinking process, priorities, etc. Learning speed that outstrips ours by such ridiculous magnitudes that a single lowly drone could in ten seconds complete what for a human would be a lifetime of study and experimentation.
If we're gauging the power of their intellect, they can open spatial anomalies with their "minds" while we glorious capsuleers can at best amount to piloting armed lunchboxes toward them with our comparably pitiful capsule-dependent gray matter.
Oh, and if you were a newly birthed sentient species fleeing in fear from your vengeful creator, would you hang out in solar systems where they live? Or perhaps... some place in between... in my imagination, the rogues we encounter are the most rudimentary scuttling calculators, sent out as vanguards and scouts by some distant, malign and absolutely bizarre intellect, meant to get shot and die to allow said intellect to figure out how our weapons work.
Citation needed.
http://tomczerniawski.wordpress.com/e-on-chronicle-the-eighth-plague/
Enjoy :p
I stand corrected. I still question the validity of E-ON articles though, as they're hardly accessible for all the RPers.
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The same could be said for the books. At least this EON article was written by someone involved in creating the original PF for the game. I'd take HG over TonyG any day. :yar:
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I know that they sometimes (or used to) spout out binary that would translate to stuff - that may be what you're thinking of? Unfortunately I don't have any logs. If you look at some rogue drone mission guides, they probably have it in there though?
Yeah, there's at least one lower-level mission where they call you a loser in binary when you warp in.
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The level 4 mission 'Attack of the Drones', where you get ambushed by 4 trigger spawn cruisers is where you get 'bzzt...more prey...bzzt'.
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I don't think I've ever treated the Rogue Drones as a true intelligence. Then again a large part of my character's background involves time spent in the Kalavela Expanse and it wasn't pleasant. So I'm a bit biased.
That said, any mission I've ever done involving Rogue Drones, seems to involve either an "Infestation" or "a mad scientist" either way, clearly the only correct response is to nuke everything...
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I don't believe that rogue drones are evolved to a human level of consciousness yet. Mostly animal instincts (through hive minds) and an emerging consciousness that seem to think like a little child / infant most of the time, depending on the hives.
Unless though, of course, some hidden rogue drone societies exist somewhere else that are a lot more evolved than the clunky, hungry things we see in missions and all around ingame...
Trying to compare Rogue Drones to a "human level" is a terrible, terrible mistake. Instead, try considering them as an alien race that evolved... somewhere else. "Incomprehensible" is an apt descriptor. Totally different value system, thinking process, priorities, etc. Learning speed that outstrips ours by such ridiculous magnitudes that a single lowly drone could in ten seconds complete what for a human would be a lifetime of study and experimentation.
If we're gauging the power of their intellect, they can open spatial anomalies with their "minds" while we glorious capsuleers can at best amount to piloting armed lunchboxes toward them with our comparably pitiful capsule-dependent gray matter.
Oh, and if you were a newly birthed sentient species fleeing in fear from your vengeful creator, would you hang out in solar systems where they live? Or perhaps... some place in between... in my imagination, the rogues we encounter are the most rudimentary scuttling calculators, sent out as vanguards and scouts by some distant, malign and absolutely bizarre intellect, meant to get shot and die to allow said intellect to figure out how our weapons work.
I don't disagree with that. That's precisely my point.
They are extremely specialized, as you say, computing power, learning curve, opening spacial anomalies in a glimpse, etc.
I sure see them as a very alien mind and entity. As I said I also can easily imagine they have hidden masterminds somewhere and what we see are only stupid, retarded minions.
However what I also see in the canon is that some people have the code to control them just like that, making them helpless. I was specifically refering to these retarded minions we see ingame, not the wider entity we can imagine behind.
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There is a rogue drone in the gallente cosmos that gives out a coule of missions, it used to use a jovian avatar (before the new char generator).
If I remember orrectly it hangs out at a planet somewhere (can't find my notes) rather than in one of the agent sites.
I think it has been damaged in someway and requires your assistance to repair itself. I beleive that it shows itself as belonging to the ORE.
Edit: found the evelopedia entry.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Drone_Mind (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Drone_Mind)
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There is a rogue drone in the gallente cosmos that gives out a coule of missions, it used to use a jovian avatar (before the new char generator).
If I remember orrectly it hangs out at a planet somewhere (can't find my notes) rather than in one of the agent sites.
I think it has been damaged in someway and requires your assistance to repair itself. I beleive that it shows itself as belonging to the ORE.
Edit: found the evelopedia entry.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Drone_Mind (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Drone_Mind)
Yeah my character's been sending people to get her Drone Mind Embryos from that mission for ages now :D
I'm currently collecting piles of rogue drone fluff items and other 'sciency' junk that might be useful in RP, with the hope that eventually a method comes along to pour all that stuff into a big cooker and get interesting things out.
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The descriptions of the rogue drone officers also suggest intelligence, amongst other things.
so since drones can be bartered with, and conduct their own experiments and investigations into things, then they're intelligent and have some form of culture.
Maybe they're smarter than people, maybe they're not. It will be up to CCP's writers to determine that.
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I see it as grimly fitting if some of the more advanced models picked up the scientific method, and experimentation, via dissection of their creators' violently-pincered-out brains.
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Probably observation of best practices used by mankind would be enough, unless we go for splatter effect.
I would expect that similar features were built-in in some more simple drones. For example, a simple mining drone might be programmed to perform test drills on the asteroid in question, table the results, based on observations make a hypothesis that the asteroid is worth of mining, test the hypothesis by further mining the said asteroid and, if the rock lives up to the promise of initial drills, continue mining. That'd be scientific method implemented in silicon (or what ever is used in circuits) right there. Now next just change the objective function to something else and keep the solver.
The second level (memory and learning) would be keeping tables of asteroids mined (ships shot, etc.) so the amount of initial tests can be minimized. While applying this to new fields requires some kind of intelligence, within limits it can be simply applied. Now, if every drone hive has some kind of a master AI (drone mother or whatever), then it is possible that they have simple planning capabilities.
The whole can still have superhuman capabilities for two very simple reasons: Probably less need to rest/recharge to work, very little need to stop thinking, and dedicated "intelligent" systems. So while a human engineer might well be smarter than a runaway factory drone, the factory drone (when given design parameters by the "drone mother" or otherwise acquiring a new parameter set) can work 24/7 until it is done designing a model that fulfills the parameters.
This, assumably, would lead into a taxonomy of several levels of drone hives:
The lesser hives might well be runaway unintelligent drones with broken programming. If they can rewrite their own code and construct new machines, the principles of evolution working, those that still function after self-modification will go on to evolve the "next generation" of drones.
An advanced type of a lesser hive might have intelligent drones (preprogrammed "intelligent" for their task) mixed in, allowing more efficient evolution of the hive. The drones are still just products of broken programming, for example a stargate / station building drone with no termination order and corrupt blueprints.
The greater hives might lead be a runaway intelligent experiment similar Orphyx / Magnus or a lesser hive accidentally ascended into a greater degree of intelligence, possibly by overwriting some built-in constraints and/or mixing parts. While the above could be explained as automatons (continuing to do their thing until stopped), at this level the hive might be able to assess its options.
The final stage would be a greater hive gone rampant in the sci fi AI sense. If the lesser hives were essentially mindless (if brutally efficient at following their broken programming), the greater hives being able to plan ahead and/or autonomously change their goals (but still somewhat predictable to those who have studied them) the rampant hives are simply alien. Their "motivations" might depend on their origins or be completely twisted beyond recognition.
The majority of the hives are probably lesser hives or rather, somewhere between a lesser hive and a greater hive. Some greater hives might be on the road to rampancy, but there may be enough limitations and obstacles that they're still "only" managed to get approximately human- or "clever animal" level intelligence. It is notable that the more they modify themselves doesn't necessarily mean that they become more intelligent, just more alien - and unless the modifications are somehow assessed and controlled, the more likely they are to simply not work. Evolutionary pressure. Of course, a drone can escape from "humanity" more than once: Perhaps someone would see a drone hive as a resource and tamper with it, resulting in a change that might not happen alone. If we accept intelligent drones, then such of an intelligent drone might do this, resulting in a merger of hives.
In camp sci fi, an alien intelligence would of course take note of mankind trying to harm it and decide to destroy all humans, but this is quite human-centric, and on the scale of things not yet very bad. The programming might completely ignore humans (though if it has acquired combat drones, those might still shoot intruders based on old programming), though it might still be very dangerous in other ways even without "intending" to harm anything. We could think about Marathon's Durandal deciding that its goal is to escape the universe, and then preparing to wipe a constellation for raw materials and energy for an experiment on the subject. Humans in that constellation? What humans?
And yes, we have not observed rampant and superhuman level hives. There are three possible explanations. First is naturally the simple explanation that they do not exist, yes. The second is that they are not discovered. And the third is that they have been observed, but they have simply been alien enough that they have not been identified for what they are. For example, it might be a valid observation for a drone needing to travel thru a section of human-infested space that the larger the hive, the stronger response it generates. Therefore, the natural solution is to travel light - either distribute the hive into smaller pieces, send a small and fast building unit where it needs to go and then just beam over instructions to copy itself, or possibly even hide in plain sight. Copy a spaceship and use the network of the humans to travel? Pretend to be an interstellar piece of rock?