Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: kalaratiri on 09 Oct 2012, 10:25
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2023393#post2023393
Back at the end of February CCP t0rfifrans announced Team Avatar and that one of our priorities was prototyping, specifically to:
"...create playable gameplay prototypes of gameplay features and try them out within the team, and within the company... The purpose of all this prototyping is to make sure we provide a strong vision for avatar gameplay, have a good demonstrable idea of why it is engaging and better understand the technology we will need to create in order to make it a reality."
The prototype itself has been finished and has been presented internally to the company stakeholders, the CSM and finally to the company as a whole. The feedback from that was overwhelmingly positive. So on to the information!
Extra-Vehicular Activity, Wrecks and Exploration
There has been an idea kicking around CCP for a long time now about an ideal starting point for avatar gameplay. That is exploring hazardous environments in order to get awesome stuff. Think scanning down a site before entering it in order to find and salvage artifacts, technology and other goodies. Sounds straightforward and it would be but for the dangerous nature of delving into long lost places where time has taken its toll on the structure and the previous owners may not have left things in a benign state. In true EVE style throw in the added dangers of lurking competition and things have a chance to go south fast. The inspiration for this comes from a lot of different places, back to the original Aliens films, Event Horizon, the cleanup of Chernobyl, high-altitude mountaineering, games such as Space Hulk, Minecraft and Moonbase Alpha, to name just a few.
Over three months we concentrated on the minute by minute gameplay of actually being inside a long abandoned structure, the hazards that it would contain and how the players might deal with them and any uninvited guests. We used the Unity engine which is a great game engine for prototyping in as it lets us create environments and gameplay very, very fast and iterate on it equally quickly. A lot of our art is much more abstract (a "grey box") than you’d see in a final game. This is due to us concentrating on the gameplay first and foremost whilst also recognizing that ambience plays an important role in how a game feels. We do throw in the occasional EVE asset here and there for flavor but those are not descriptive of any final theming or style.
The gameplay premise is simple, players move through our abandoned structures with their fitted Extra-Vehicular Activity suit, using their wits, tools and teammates to deal with the hazardous environment. Some of us are enthusiastically and maliciously killing teammates for personal gain. We’ve even allowed two teams into the environment to really let all hell break loose.
It’s a part of the EVE Universe
There have been a lot of questions on the forums about how this integrates with EVE. Whilst this isn’t the core focus for us at the moment it is something we are thinking about long and hard. Like DUST514, this part of EVE should contribute to the overall economy as well as supporting its own ecosystem. Right now we’re thinking that these abandoned structures are so dangerous, radioactive and toxic, that they can only be entered with special suits. Obviously with access to clones you aren’t worried about radiation and long term health effects of hazardous lifestyles. You probably all smoke and eat lots of bacon as well and besides robots won’t survive the violent EM fields. Robot electronics would toast, thus only teams using gear that involves crude electronics, like found in EM resistant military hardware can go in and recover the technology that lies within.
One example of a link with EVE gameplay we’re thinking of would be to put implant manufacture into the hands of players and making avatar gameplay part of the resource gathering chain it has. We want to make Avatar gameplay a viable and vibrant part of the Universe without forcing anyone that doesn’t want to use it from having to use it.
A benefit from the EVA game is that a lot of the technology that would need to be developed to properly deliver the EVA experience would be directly useful in providing social areas and tools in stations.
That just sounds like one idea...
We decided to concentrate in depth on the one idea that has kept resurfacing from lots of different places within the company. We’ve had several others and collected a lot both internally and from the forums. One example would be a Station based espionage system. The beauty of the EVE Universe is that these ideas aren’t mutually exclusive for the most part. So whilst I think we are fairly sure of the initial gameplay direction there is lots of scope for expansion.
(cont)
It has been fantastic to see the Avatar team show everyone that there is meaningful gameplay using more than just your ship as your agent in the EVE Universe. The prototyping work they have done in Unity has allowed them to rapidly explore different themes and make a game which is challenging, fun and in the true spirit of EVE.
At CCP we are now making sure that when great gameplay concepts such as these come along, we take time to assess what would be required to take them out of the concept phase, into our engine, through pre-production and into production. We must also consider how it interacts with everything else we are doing both within EVE and CCP as a whole. One of the great achievements of this piece of work is that it has really proved it is possible to rapidly iterate on new experiences without having to make a huge investment up front.
Once this prototype was demoed and I had played it (being beaten by CCP Explorer and team in the process), then came the next part. Working out what would be needed to put this concept into the game for real. The team worked together to put a pre-production and production plan together using what they had learned over the previous months and also the lessons learned from the Incarna efforts from last year.
The result of that planning highlighted that right now, we do not have the time or people to build this without impacting what we can deliver for our players who are flying in space. To create this will mean a considerable investment which will take time to put together and also a new focus for us just at a time when we as a company have another new game coming into the EVE Universe (yes DUST 514, I’m looking at you).
So, all that being said, we have a great concept to expand the EVE Universe but now is not the right time for us to take that step. It’s a step I very much want to take but I want to take it when it won’t mean removing developers and focus from flying in space. So, for the time being, watch this space with regards to exploration gameplay for EVE avatars. The Avatar team will now be turning its attention to features it can put out for EVE in our winter expansion and beyond.
Oh, and slightly further down: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2023704#post2023704
Hey guys, thanks for the positive reaction. Like stated above, our vision is to make the EVE Universe the ultimate science fiction simulator. Saying that EVE is just about spaceships, is a bit like saying that phones should only be about making voice phone calls one on one with other people. Indeed they did start out like that, but as technology evolved, they become something much bigger. We hope you guys stay with us long enough for that dream to materialize.
Oh and to someone that asked if it can be safe. Sorry, nope. The EVA gameplay is not safe, it's as safe as going into a wormhole. That's also what makes it interesting.
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S W E E T .
I've always hoped they might do more with Incarna stuff and the whole outside-your-spaceship experience, and this confirms that one day perhaps, my toon(s) will be able to travel around stations, possibly planets and space-habitats, enter/exit the pod manually, explore stuff in EVA suits (didn't think of that until today, thanks CCP) and who knows, get out-of-pod while 'offline' in space or in station and explore my space-ship.
Plenty of things that can happen, but one thing is also very promising by this; EVE online will likely still be here in several years. Bigger, better, and hopefully, more enjoyable than ever.
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I like what I see. Archaeological exploration is definitely something Aelisha would be interested in, if only to get out and about a little from time to time. Solarienne, obviously, will be wherever a bodyguard or war dog is required... This stuff cannot come soon enough!
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As cool as this looks, I have to wonder why they'd use pod-clones for this and not dusties. Aren't the latter designed from the ground up to be much more physically capable, and just as disposable?
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As cool as this looks, I have to wonder why they'd use pod-clones for this and not dusties. Aren't the latter designed from the ground up to be much more physically capable, and just as disposable?
:psyccp:
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There is nothing preventing them from retconning that our clones have a form of NIS implant technology in them, albeit one designed to still interface with capsule technology (which I assume the NIS implant in it's 2nd gen state still isn't designed for). After all, we don't want the young demi-gods stealing all the thunder from their predecessors in the sky.
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As cool as this looks, I have to wonder why they'd use pod-clones for this and not dusties. Aren't the latter designed from the ground up to be much more physically capable, and just as disposable?
Very much my thoughts. I just can't see my character risking herself like this, it would seem smarter to send a drone or some poor disposable fool in my place.
That said I hope this is cool.
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To be honest, if it is literally a minigame with rewards dependant on risk, like many elements of EVE, then everyone will be free to participate or get others to do their dirty work :).
I am a big advocate of 'because I can', 'boredom' and sheer showing off as reasons for capsuleers to do what they do - after all, once you are immortal, and the potential loss is considered acceptable with regards to potential gains, all that remains is a decision as to who is going - you or a proxy.
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In reference to that other thread, this might bring me back.
When I first heard about the first glimmers of it, I thought it was a magnificent idea. I'm very glad to see Eve Online going in that direction.
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Sad that Unifex basically said that they won't touch it for quite some time.
For good reason, they shouldn't slow down on their current efforts.
But I'd pay for that feature if that would allow them to get it done.
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With regards to "why would we do this?!", we may be running into conflicting views with CCP regarding how self-destructive the general capsuleer is. We, after all, are not the ones who throw ourselves into thousand-person-plus meat grinders in nullsec, nor are we typically the ones who happily sacrifice our ships to CONCORD to shoot down mining barges or haulers in highsec.
That said: In general, this idea has promise. However, much like PI, it could easily turn out to simply be done wrong. I'll be looking forward to seeing how CCP handles this when they do decide to do it.
EDIT: I just thought of something - if high-tech circuitry is damaged or disrupted by EM fields in these things, wouldn't our own capsuleer implants be driven haywire by going in there, even inside the EVA suit? If not, why can't they slap the equivalent of an EVA suit on a drone and do it that way? :|
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EDIT: I just thought of something - if high-tech circuitry is damaged or disrupted by EM fields in these things, wouldn't our own capsuleer implants be driven haywire by going in there, even inside the EVA suit? If not, why can't they slap the equivalent of an EVA suit on a drone and do it that way? :|
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMuSiDTmkgE), at the 0:56 mark explains the basic concept.
:D
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But we still can't get WIS.
Which was mostly completed and working in some form.
:psyccp:
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If I don't hear my character breathing inside the space suit ala Dead Space...
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Dungeon crawling is what marines are for, tbh.
Boarding mechanics are a neat idea in and of itself - however, I don't see my characters strapping on combat gear and kicking down doors. Hell, none of them have ever even fired a handgun - why should they?
If they're going to make a boarding mini-game, I'd personally much rather see one where you take control of a small team of fun but totally expendable marines in a similar fashion to good old Cannon Fodder. :P
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But we still can't get WIS.
Which was mostly completed and working in some form.
:psyccp:
If they do this right, they can optimize it using slightly lower quality models (as full WiS avatars are resource intensive). That optimization can then slowly be applied to WiS in general, allowing for social areas and improved performance in general. Of course they'll also be fighting the whole "you're taking resources away from ships!" argument. As it is, I can run "FiS" pretty good. It's getting out of the pod and walking around that makes my computer try to start a fire, as well as being pretty much pointless. You can do everything from the ship, and walking around to different consoles wastes valuable time that could be used making ISK. This adds something to the game that could actually expand the player base.
I'm assuming two or three years after development is fully underway on the feature, about the time I'll be able to afford a new graphics card, they'll have this set to go. By then they'll also know how successful DUST 514 is, and we'll probably see AURUM armor, weapons and equipment available at launch. Heck, why couldn't they just use the same suits, etc. as DUST soldiers? Mercenary contracts for boarding parties, etc.
They could almost bill this as a separate game within EVE, and potentially fund development with AURUM, without even taking resources away from EVE.
/bean_counter_rant
Long and the short of it, I see it as nothing but a positive for EVE. However there might be some backlash if what I predict will happen actually happens.
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EDIT: I just thought of something - if high-tech circuitry is damaged or disrupted by EM fields in these things, wouldn't our own capsuleer implants be driven haywire by going in there, even inside the EVA suit? If not, why can't they slap the equivalent of an EVA suit on a drone and do it that way? :|
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMuSiDTmkgE), at the 0:56 mark explains the basic concept.
:D
No, no - I know what a Faraday cage is as well. :P What I'm asking is, if you can successfully isolate a capsuleer inside of the EVA suit - through a Faraday Cage or a personal shield bubble or whatever - enough that their implants are no longer affected by the environment, why can't you do the same to a drone? What is different about a human in a suit that you couldn't wrap the same material around a drone chassis.
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No, no - I know what a Faraday cage is as well. :P What I'm asking is, if you can successfully isolate a capsuleer inside of the EVA suit - through a Faraday Cage or a personal shield bubble or whatever - enough that their implants are no longer affected by the environment, why can't you do the same to a drone? What is different about a human in a suit that you couldn't wrap the same material around a drone chassis.
It's part of the main conceit of the setting; why have a capsule when you could do the same with advanced computers? Why have a human in a capsule when you could potentially just hook someone into a neural rigged chair, and use fluid routers to communicate to a properly fitted drone ship? Because humans just have that unique something that allows them to adapt to situations and project their will upon the universe.
More simple answer? The player has to be important, and therefore, their character must be. So, capsuleer goes dungeon crawling in ancient Sleeper/Jove/Cartel/Sansha ruins in order to gain vast wealth, and must deal with other humans in the whole "everyone vs. everyone" scenario that is EVE Online.
It wouldn't be an awesome exploration adventure if you weren't going in there, being all visceral and such blowing drones and other people apart into their constituent atoms.
:bear:
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Whilst I'd love to be able to open that little door to the outside world in stations and maybe get other environments like customizable corporate/alliance suites and the like to play around in while docked I'm not really sold on the EVA stuff because it just feels odd not having a capsuleer in their actual capsules while in space. Isn't that what disposable red-shirts are for?
Although it would be hilarious being able to ship-jack people while they're silly enough to leave their spaceships hanging around and stranding them in the middle of an abandoned ruin. How can they clone then without their precious neural burners? The thought did make me chuckle a bit.
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Whilst I'd love to be able to open that little door to the outside world in stations and maybe get other environments like customizable corporate/alliance suites and the like to play around in while docked I'm not really sold on the EVA stuff because it just feels odd not having a capsuleer in their actual capsules while in space. Isn't that what disposable red-shirts are for?
Although it would be hilarious being able to ship-jack people while they're silly enough to leave their spaceships hanging around and stranding them in the middle of an abandoned ruin. How can they clone then without their precious neural burners? The thought did make me chuckle a bit.
Capsule is still locked into the ship. Might not be anyone in it, but yours will not fit in the ship anyway.
Now, blowing the ship up is another thing altogether... :twisted:
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Hmmmz...
But i always thought that if Yuni were to decide to go to a planet or station, she'd simply step into her ACU and start building a vast army to do her bidding.. :P
either like this
[spoiler](http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/196/c/d/cybran_acu_wallpaper_3_by_avitus12-d57cdu6.jpg)[/spoiler]
or this (image too big, do a 'view image' on it to see it properly... can't remember the HTML to shrink an image to a percentage of the screen width.. :P )
[spoiler](http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/16/15914/Cybran_Heavy_XP.jpg)[/spoiler]
YuniCybran ftw.
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@ off-topic.
Those don't look like SUPCOM2, are they making another game?
/@ off-topic.
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@ off-topic.
Those don't look like SUPCOM2, are they making another game?
/@ off-topic.
I think they were both simply Fanart... but i do hope they do more SupCom games...
i'll look into it and see what i can dig up, when i have the time :) ... still.. YuniACU would be great... and would stomp all over many DUSTies....
EDIT:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2162452
that was quick.
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..
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ok, jokes aside.. i'll look into seeing if i can find any real info soon.
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The problem for me is the hype words in the OP.
Its a lot of hype with no content whatsoever.
The biggest fallacy of the whole idea is that EVA will bring more meaningful gameplay into the world of EVE.
At the moment there is none.
They should fix that first.
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The problem for me is the hype words in the OP.
Its a lot of hype with no content whatsoever.
The biggest fallacy of the whole idea is that EVA will bring more meaningful gameplay into the world of EVE.
At the moment there is none.
They should fix that first.
Bold is mine. This is your opinion, presented as a fact. It isn't one. Clearly all the null-bears disagree on your assessment of what 'meaningful gameplay' is. So does everyone who partakes in Free Welfare, industry-related activities and so on.
Personally I think EVA trips will be great, if implemented well, and I also think Bringing the Factional Warfare back to FW will be good, if they manage that, and I like the industry side even if I've only dabbled in it.
I would still not go out and claim that anything I'm not overly fond of, like say piracy and overt griefing, is not 'meaningful gameplay', as that would be stating my personal views as facts.
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I have to agree with bloodbird here.
If i was to argue semantics regarding your statement, there is no such thing as 'meaningful gameplay' .. it's a game, based in a fictional universe over 20,000 years into the future.
but that's a totally different point.
my thoughts, actually bringing another aspect of item construction away from the NPC market and into the hands of capsuleers is a good thing. The implant market is one of the few parts of the ISK marketplace that is not controlled (almost) entirely by players.
The EVA suit itself will likely be a modified DUST exo-suit. which will require manufacturing, and might allow some of the 'lower skill' manufacturing toons out there to get an edge in the marketplace by creating these. not to mention the fittings and armament for the thing.
It brings Avatars into eve properly.
A lack of Avatar content is one of the biggest immersion breakers there has always been in EvE.
I spent a good portion of my early days in eve thinking that we eggers were permanently sealed into those capsules. much like the ship 'brains' in certain Anne McCaffery (spelling?) books.
(yes, i have been playing on and off for a very long time).
Finally, it is, as has been stated, a good stepping stone towards getting the holy grail that is ambulation into EvE.... so, there's 4 meaningful points. 3 of which relate to gameplay this will open up, and the 4th to something (or things) it will make possible in the future.
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Though, there is a point regarding PF i'd like to make here... the capsule. according to the data in TEA, there is only one ship in the cluster that was designed with an internally openable Pod Gantry.... and that was pilotted by Marcus Jror... unless they are changing that bit of PF, i'm guessing we'll be using remote-clones for our EVA jaunts. Which does mean our ships would 'technically' remain safe... as we're still in them.
Yuni-Rok-Toluijin
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My character would definitly do such crazy things. However I don't like at all their "dungeon-monster-treasure-loot" approach, even if the atmosphere they are looking for is attractive.
I prefered 100 times black market activities in the low security areas of a station, like presented before Incarna.
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Do not like it.
I am having a very hard time buying that an instanced battleground scenario captures the feeling of EVE (the sandbox). Also, it does not require a higher degree in software development to be able to see that where EVE avatars technology is today (the part that has been shown at least) and what it would require in man-hours to realize this proposed game concept is in the thousands. The only surprising part is that CCP did not conclude this almost immediately.
Do the multiplayer part first before spending huge efforts at creating PvE mechanics, which people will end up ignoring when faced with the possibility to interact with another player. It does not matter how much radiation they stuff in there; people will still turn it into a nightclub.
Sure I am a bitter vet, but I read this "blog" as nothing more than: "We have been wasting time on a game concept that you know from your average themepark MMO, but we are calling it something else and claiming that a sandbox is all about competitive play (like GW2). We will now excuse ourselves from wasting anymore time on WiS by claiming "spaceships", and be relieved that nobody can again claim we do not have any plans for avatar based gameplay. If they do, we will point to this amazing concept presented here, well knowing that it could only be implemented if we tripled the number of developers in the company."
I think Torfi is playing all the wrong games at the moment.
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Anyway this blog sounds more like yet another "I had a dream" to me than anything else.
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Oh shit I got totally burned.
There is not a single MMO out there where you can 'make your mark' on a game through your actions permanently.
(In the golden age of EVE some rare and few individuals could.)
Only thing that you can affect permanently in a game like EVE is the hearts and minds of the players.
Which unfortunately in a game like EVE come out scarred.
Yes, there is a very good argument about running a corporation compared to any guild in any other MMO and how much it actually takes real leadership skills instead of just creating a website for the guild and having voice comms to have karaoke in.
Yes, to be successful in EVE via market manipulation you have to develop skills that are quite useful for you in real business.
Yes, the PR side of things is very similar to real world and you learn shitloads about good and bad marketing via EVE.
There are many aspects of EVE that actually educate you.
I don't know if it is a good thing that the education comes at a cost, although paying that price might be a lesson in itself.
For some reason that price is not something that I am constantly willing to pay for CCPs vision (or lack) of meaningful gameplay which is related to their pipedream of making EVE into the supreme sci-fi simulator via using similar motivators that are presented to us in real life.
Gathering ISK, new shinies, skills, dominating other players are not something that I would qualify as 'meaningful gameplay'.
That is not a sci-fi simulator, that is a real life simulator.
If I would have interest in those motivators, I would pursue them in real life, not in a game.
So, in my perspective, there is no 'meaningful gameplay' in EVE.
Only thing meaningful are the people, and you can interact with people in a myriad ways that are more constructive and fun than EVE.
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Only thing meaningful are the people, and you can interact with people in a myriad ways that are more constructive and fun than EVE.
Interesting points, but I think some clarification is in order.
"Meaningful gameplay" is one of those industry phrases that look good on an investor handout and sounds really good in press releases. What it really means, is making a feature of the game that is actually used. Adding "meaningful gameplay" to walking in stations would mean adding features that can't be accessed in a player's "ship". That's the context of meaningful here.
I am having a very hard time buying that an instanced battleground scenario captures the feeling of EVE (the sandbox). Also, it does not require a higher degree in software development to be able to see that where EVE avatars technology is today (the part that has been shown at least) and what it would require in man-hours to realize this proposed game concept is in the thousands. The only surprising part is that CCP did not conclude this almost immediately.
They've got the groundwork started. It's called DUST 514. The thing about the whole "sandbox" concept is that the players make of it what they will, within the confines of the sandbox. Also a slightly out of context discussion, as what they are doing is providing some new tools to add to the sandbox; I for one look would look forward to pillaging ruins and abandoned stations. It would add to my RP, my gaming experience, and make use of skills I utilize in other games that I play.
I understand that it may not exactly be your cup of tea, but for those who do enjoy it, well... I for one can wait, and get my interactions elsewhere while I wait.
:cube:
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Things without persistance in the world gives me very little sense of immersion, and as such, does not make me feel like IC.
The ability to name containers and anchor them in space allows for more persistant interactive gameplay than these battlegrounds ever will provide (assuming, of course, that they magically appear and disappear like mission/exploration sites and not stay in place).
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My personal minimum for such sites is that they, as with other out of station areas of eve, act as a focus for competition, conflict and/or cooperation. If it is only one of these in isolation or even 2 out of 3, I do not feel that they add much to the tapestry of eve.
I can get behind dust battlefields as they encourage macro competition over planetary resources, immediate conflict and cooperation not only with your team mates but also orbital assets. If EVA game play doesn't allow for lower-powered but still tense and skills based acts of violence against other capsuleers, as well as cooperation in the face of that and possibly greater threats within the environment, then it isn't EVE imo.
Persistence is not required physically, but it is required in the minds of those who experience such game play - without the usual give and take in EVE and the chance to get caught with your pants down while looting some frozen starship tomb, what point is there to it other than 'need cash, do rote activity'?
TL;DR, It is my opinion that immediate cooperation and conflict require persistent competition (ownership of 'good places to go' be it spawn quality or quantity - or even market importance of rare, hard fought for goods) to meet the minimum requirements of being considered a 'toy in the sandbox'. Persistence of location is not required so long as, for the duration of an encounter, it is available to more than just those for find it first.