Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Lillith Blackheart on 18 May 2010, 09:36
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First off, before I go any further, I would like to point out that this is not any intention of making anyone look bad or any such thing, I'm simply trying to bring forth a discussion of something and see what opinions are on it.
To the point:
The Summit is the main lifeline link that many of us have to the RP community as a whole. It is, as far as I am aware, the only "general RP" channel that exists that has any sustained community presence allowing for interaction. To many of us, this is our only real connective point to the rest of the RP community.
Recently during this live event, many of the Sansha sympathizers (myself included - for a month no less) have been getting muted in channel for completely valid In Character reasons.
However this causes a conundrum. By muting us in The Summit for in character purposes, this effectively blacklists us out of character, removing our connection to the RP community in any ability to communicate or roleplay.
We have effectively been told we don't get to play with people anymore.
Now again, from an in character standpoint nothing is really wrong with what was done.
Out Of Character, however. . . one must stop and question whether or not the In Character functional moderation of the channel should be allowed, as it causes many of us a significant problem in being able to RP at all outside of the singular Sansha RP channel.
This removes conflict entirely from our RP.
With no conflict there is little to keep one interested.
We have been, quite effectively, blacklisted from the community and told we can not play with everyone else.
What are other peoples' thoughts on this matter? Is this a fair tactic? Should this be accepted simply because it is In Character? Or is this effective blacklist something that should not be acceptable based on the nature of the RP Community Channels in game?
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What sort of IC reasons lead to someone getting muted / banned / whatever from an IC channel?
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What sort of IC reasons lead to someone getting muted / banned / whatever from an IC channel?
"Being a Sansha Sypmathizer".
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EVE System > Lillith Blackheart was muted by (REDACTED - this is not a witch hunt). Effective until 2010.06.08 11:33:46, Reason: "foolishness".
Specifically.
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This is rather silly. I mean, the live events are finally bringing in fresh meat rpers and now they're watching people get banned for roleplaying a certain faction.
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This is rather silly. I mean, the live events are finally bringing in fresh meat rpers and now they're watching people get banned for roleplaying a certain faction.
That's what I feared. Muting people because they RP as a particular fashion (assuming that's what has actually happened) seems like a bad idea.
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Muting/banning from a channel like the Summit for these reasons is bad. Fully understand muting/banning from channels like SynPublic as that is for IC reasons in these cases but as you said Summit is the only real general rp chat in a sense.
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I'll have a talk with Some of the people involved about it.
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I understand a short-term mute/ban for when you're :rabble:ing. But anything more than an hour or two seems excessive for precisely the reasons you cited.
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Nobody should get muted in there unless they are obviously trying to troll OUT of character making fun of the rpers, which has been taken care of so far.
If one side is getting too loud, please guys. Go to your rp support channel and tell them to STFU and chill out. You're allowed to do that. Give em a warning if they keep it up. Sometimes they don't know any better or they get caught up in the moment.
I've seen both sides rile out of control in there before, it's not just the Sansha guys.
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Use extra post for issuerelated cool pic or even just semirelated...
Hm...so that is what Havo devours for sustance to further his forumwarrioring....
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/me eats doubleposts when they're marked as undesirable by their poster :3
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The muting in question was lifted -- before anyone gets on their case about it -- but it is not the topic at hand. As I stated, it is not a witch hunt. I'm just trying to get a feel for what people think about the topic in general.
I understand a short-term mute/ban for when you're :rabble:ing. But anything more than an hour or two seems excessive for precisely the reasons you cited.
This is dangerous thinking though -- and exactly what I'm getting at. What is ":rabble:ing" in your sense of discussion? Is it speaking to a side? Preaching? Trying to incite distrust amongst one side or the other (regardless of who is doing it)? Is it strictly trying to be directly disruptive to people's ability to roleplay? How do you define it?
I would define it as disrupting roleplay.
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Disrupting roleplay, or disrupting the channel. The Summit does have some standards of behavior.
What is dangerous, and in my opinion unacceptable, is basing any of that on what faction people RP for.
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/me agrees with Silver Night
Monopolizing the conversation such that no one else can participate, OOC trolling, ASCII art, etc. Those are reasons to get modded. "You are my enemy" is not, IMO.
Though I'll also note that the general atmosphere there that leads to things like this is why I've avoided The Summit (and OOC) for months now.
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Just my 2 cents and not meant to be hyper-critical or anything.
You admit you understand the in character reason for something happening in the in character channel, but want the other people to act out of character because it harshes your mellow.
I don't think you can champion an unpopular cause and then be hurt that it makes you unpopular. Look at what happened to Seri's family. The Nation is up to really not nice stuff. I try not to make too many real-world comparisons, but Sansha supporters in most circles are going to be a bit like Nazi's showing up at a bar mitzfah.
I would suggest all the Sansha RPers need to make their own equivalent of The Summit and do their thing there. You've joined the counterculture and set yourself apart from the main of society. There are some steep consequences that go along with that.
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So the Summit is for a particular faction now, or at least a coalition? I thought that's what SYNEPublic was for.
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So the Summit is for a particular faction now, or at least a coalition? I thought that's what SYNEPublic was for.
Exactly. Part of The Summit is that it is for general RP. It's a central place for RPers, regardless of affiliation, to interact IC.
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I want to add: Even with IC resources, sometimes considerations of what is good for the community (OOC) need to come first. Without a healthy community, the fidelity of the IC experience is going to be kinda irrelevant.
Right now we have a lot of potential new RPers floating around, with these events. We don't need to be showing them people getting banned from a general RP channel for the Faction they want to RP in.
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I want to add: Even with IC resources, sometimes considerations of what is good for the community (OOC) need to come first. Without a healthy community, the fidelity of the IC experience is going to be kinda irrelevant.
Right now we have a lot of potential new RPers floating around, with these events. We don't need to be showing them people getting banned from a general RP channel for the Faction they want to RP in.
I've been sayin that for dayzzzz.
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I definitely think some clarification is in order. I got banned from the channel myself, permanently, for providing false intel (which was entirely in-character), because people were using it as a rallying point to fight off the invasion this afternoon.
Who owns the channel, what is it's purpose, and what are the rules?
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Maybe it's time for a roleplay channel diaspora... :twisted: :yar:
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If you pee in the public pool, don't be surprised if you are not allowed back in the water.
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This isn't peeing. This is more akin to being on the other team of water volleyball.
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I'll have to agree with what's being said as well. The Summit should be a neutral entity of a channel, with exertion of moderating powers applied onto only those who are 'disrupting the peace' (eg: Allcaps, spam, going out of character). Having it as the result of being in-character would be setting a bad example to the ones new to it, or are attracted by the event and may be interested in roleplaying towards the future. Hosting it on the most known and trafficked RP channel, and holding it temporarily under 'martial law' is wrong.
I think for key problem here was the location of the event intself. Having specific conferances used as a rallying point against another entity of the game, should be used in a suitable biased channel for the targeted crowd. This one could have advertised to go to SYNE's, or the creation of a new channel for gatherings during this event. This way when issuing out bans or mutes, its already taken into consideration the channel itself is not neutral. You can even be more strict as a result, keeping in the ones that aren't causing complete chaotic and incoherent phrases that bog down the whole log for someone else to read.
I don't think anybody really anticipated how the outcome of last night's events, and is something to look out for next time. It's just a lesson learned.
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ohai, just saw this thread here.
A week ago, the Summit was a place where people said "hi", then went afk.
now, it has experienced a growth of around 250%.
Ashar co-opted the channel's name recognition to hold the Conference there. the conference is designed to stop Nation. This was ashar's decision, and at the start of this, i requested that he make it a different channel to isolate problems.
people chattering in the channel between Conference sessions still influence the Conference. People are becoming angry at nation supporters in the channel, and are threatening to stop participating in the Conference because of constant streams of propaganda and "Nation is Unity" crap.
welp.
How do I respond to demands from multiple people requesting mutes regarding people yammering about how wonderful it is for children being made into mind-slaves? As a person seeking the destruction of nation's campaign, how am I to respond, In character, as a host of the Conference and seeking collaboration and cooperation from those people making the requests?
The Sansha arc has divided the capsuleer community. IC tensions are higher than at any other point in the game's history, with real hatred being generated.
Nation supporters need to consider the fact that nobody actually likes them. And the more they actually do things that hurt everyone else in the game universe, then they will continue to be hated.
until such a time all this is settled, of course. ;)
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Well, i can see those points. Lets just hope by then they have not said screw it and never return of course.
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Sorry, but I can understand kicking someone out of an intel channel, but the summit, from my experience has been a neutral area for everyone to interact in. People need to understand the difference and you need to explain it to them.
If this is the position moderators of the channel are going to take on the issue, clearly there needs to be a new channel.
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Perhaps the problem is that Ashar used an existing channel for a purpose different from its original intention, thus essentially pushing aside anyone who didn't toe the coalition line.
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Look, if I'm at a public park and other people are there too and we can all get along then there isn't a problem. But if I insert myself into your group and become disruptive, I can expect a park ranger to come along put me out. Giving false intel and going on and on about Nation is Unity is being disruptive.
The truth of the matter is that there is a war on between Nation and the rest of the universe. Sides are being taken and lines are being drawn. It's not an environment that is conducive to a neutral space.
I mean, really, Saxon is marshaling the IPI to prepare for a Titan to drop in Intaki. From all accounts he just saw 2 million of his cousins disappear in a single raid. Would he really saunter into a holo-bar and sit down for a round of virtual drinks with the people who are plotting to abduct his wife and children the first chance they get?
I just don't see how it makes any sense in character. And if we're going to do things purely for out of character friendships and camaraderie, I think there are other channels for that.
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Oh and Sansha followers.
Welcome to the shitstorm of what it means to be an Amarrian loyalist.
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I'm not even a Sansha follower -- but I think that co-opting a general RP channel for a particular side is bad mojo OOCly.
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Look, I consider The Summit 'RP-light'
It's purpose is clearly OOC, no way everyone in there would regularly go along. It is a meeting place for RP-ers to get together IC but its purpose (as far as I'm concerned) is clearly OOC.
Doing RP-heavy stuff like an actual conference there would be a big no-no for me. Doing RP heavy stuff would require mutes and bans for it to make sense.
Just keep it RP light in there is my advice.
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There has to be a separate channel for the Conference. During the Summit was a bad decision from the start. A really bad decision.
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There has to be a separate channel for the Conference. During the Summit was a bad decision from the start. A really bad decision.
Q to the F to the E.
In the meantime, maybe we really do need more RP channels. I should ponder this.
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Just my 2 cents and not meant to be hyper-critical or anything.
You admit you understand the in character reason for something happening in the in character channel, but want the other people to act out of character because it harshes your mellow.
I think you misunderstand. I understand the in character reason for something happening in the channel, I feel the problem is not that they reacted in character, I think the fact that moderation is in character is a problem on a channel that was initially designed all those years ago as the connective-point to wide-band RP.
I don't think you can champion an unpopular cause and then be hurt that it makes you unpopular.
This is the point though. My character is championing an unpopular cause, so I should be unpopular. That is not the problem. The problem is that the Pro-Sansha groups are being forced to RP only within the Pro-Sansha groups. You are not unpopular with like-minds. It doesn't work that way. This is why we want to go to the General RP room. We want to RP where our ideas are unpopular. The point of our characters at this point is we are the bad guys being the bad guys with a bunch of other bad guys is not fun. We can have that kind of circle jerk without anyone else's help -- but we're here to roleplay, not stroke our own egos.
Look at what happened to Seri's family. The Nation is up to really not nice stuff. I try not to make too many real-world comparisons, but Sansha supporters in most circles are going to be a bit like Nazi's showing up at a bar mitzfah.
Which is as it should be, neh? However does that mean that we shouldn't get to play with anyone anymore? This is the crux of the discussion.
I would suggest all the Sansha RPers need to make their own equivalent of The Summit and do their thing there. You've joined the counterculture and set yourself apart from the main of society. There are some steep consequences that go along with that.
We have one, however that does not change the problem one iota. What is the fun of being the bad guy when you get to have no good guys?
Oh and Sansha followers.
Welcome to the shitstorm of what it means to be an Amarrian loyalist.
I feel that you are mistaken, this is actually quite the opposite problem, in the sense that we are trying our hardest to engage other people and they are going about systemmatically trying to halt our ability to do that. This would in fact be the reverse of the shitstorm of what it means to be an Amarrian loyalist, from my perspective.
Look, if I'm at a public park and other people are there too and we can all get along then there isn't a problem. But if I insert myself into your group and become disruptive, I can expect a park ranger to come along put me out. Giving false intel and going on and on about Nation is Unity is being disruptive.
Actually, if you're in a public park and having your little party, and I happen to also be at the park having my little party, and you don't like the people that are in my party and complain, you can expect the park ranger to pat you on the head and go on about his business, which is primarily what is being discussed here.
The truth of the matter is that there is a war on between Nation and the rest of the universe. Sides are being taken and lines are being drawn. It's not an environment that is conducive to a neutral space.
This does not mean neutral spaces suddenly cease to exist. While Saxon or yourself may have issue with it, others would have no issue with being in the same room with a member of the enemy, and may well use it to what they feel is their advantage -- in fact many of those that engage Lillith do so with express purpose to better understand their enemies so that they can feel they can combat them more readily.
I mean, really, Saxon is marshaling the IPI to prepare for a Titan to drop in Intaki. From all accounts he just saw 2 million of his cousins disappear in a single raid. Would he really saunter into a holo-bar and sit down for a round of virtual drinks with the people who are plotting to abduct his wife and children the first chance they get?
The Summit isn't a bar. This would make sense for the Last Gate, this does not make sense for the Summit. I do not feel this is a valid comparison.
I just don't see how it makes any sense in character. And if we're going to do things purely for out of character friendships and camaraderie, I think there are other channels for that.
Yes, such as the Summit, which if I recall its description. . . .
The Summit is arguably the most popular and frequented roleplay channel. It regularly hosts a wide variety of personalities, drawn from across many of the organizations in New Eden. Conversation varies from day to day, and as it is basically something of a mirror of the Forum-based roleplay channel the Intergalactic Summit, there is often various topics being discussed.
Welcome to the Summit. This comm channel is intended for discussions on the dealings of empires and corporations. Diplomacy and debate are the suggested topics, psychotic ramblings and practices that do not belong in public should remain in other channels.
Thank you and enjoy.
Seems pretty fitting for the goals of what you would be looking for as an antagonist.
Ashar co-opted the channel's name recognition to hold the Conference there. the conference is designed to stop Nation. This was ashar's decision, and at the start of this, i requested that he make it a different channel to isolate problems.
people chattering in the channel between Conference sessions still influence the Conference. People are becoming angry at nation supporters in the channel, and are threatening to stop participating in the Conference because of constant streams of propaganda and "Nation is Unity" crap.
I think you may have just discovered one source of the problem. It's not in the second paragraph by the by.
The Sansha arc has divided the capsuleer community. IC tensions are higher than at any other point in the game's history, with real hatred being generated.
Nation supporters need to consider the fact that nobody actually likes them. And the more they actually do things that hurt everyone else in the game universe, then they will continue to be hated.
The point is that that is what we want. However what everyone seems to continue to be able to miss is that if we don't have a venue to play with you people then we have no way for this to occur.
If you pee in the public pool, don't be surprised if you are not allowed back in the water.
Casiella already answered this, and answered it clearly. No one has pissed in the pool here, we just happened to be playing Marco Polo and they were having trouble catching us, or alternatively Casiella's description - we were on the other team of Water Polo or Water Volleyball, and they kicked us out of the pool.
Huge difference.
I want to add: Even with IC resources, sometimes considerations of what is good for the community (OOC) need to come first. Without a healthy community, the fidelity of the IC experience is going to be kinda irrelevant.
Right now we have a lot of potential new RPers floating around, with these events. We don't need to be showing them people getting banned from a general RP channel for the Faction they want to RP in.
And that's the crux. The Summit has long been coined as being a "general RP" room that is a central meeting point for the RP community. It is our connective corridor to be able to reach the rest of the larger community that our little sub-communities want to interact with. There is far more involved here than just the IC differentiations.
That is why I stated from the beginning this is a conundrum.
There has to be a separate channel for the Conference. During the Summit was a bad decision from the start. A really bad decision.
Q to the F to the E.
In the meantime, maybe we really do need more RP channels. I should ponder this.
I suggest it is not that there is a need for more, it's that the ones we have need to be redefined. If we are redefining what the Summit is then that needs to be fucking made clear, and something else needs to take the place that it previously stood, as that place is necessary for the health of the community.
If it is not changing its intended purpose and is not being redefined, then I suggest moderation no longer be considered an IC function and be only considered an OOC function for disruptive individuals.
Otherwise this will only end up being a problem again in the future.
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But doesn't it make sense for specific classes of discussions to have their own place? That is, one sort is what many of us have always understood The Summit to be, sort of an analogue to the UN General Assembly, or at least the foyer to it. But another sort is Toxic Edge (assuming it still exists), and another sort is The Last Gate or Three Sisters or the other bar-type places, and I can envision still another sort for discussion on various technical bits. SYNEPublic is another good example.
But if the UN HQ had been used during the Cold War to host a conference on how to encourage the growth of democracy, I don't think the USSR and China would have been kicked out of the building.
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It's a no brainer that the summit is going to be full of sansha sansha sansha.
Sansha events man. They're everywhere in game and on the forums. Lots of new rpers coming in asking questions and getting their feet wet using this event to help them along the way.
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the amarr comparison is reasonable to a point.
Amarr has been/still is painted as "Ebil" by short stories, novels etc.
So people go "boo!" and throw insults, using the worst things featured, to dismiss anything and everything you say. Ignoring/banning people from channels is part of it.
Which means, to have any RP other than being insulted all the time, regardless of what you say, then you don't RP with anyone other than people of similar outlook.
Which is what seems to be happening to Sansha now as well.
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the amarr comparison is reasonable to a point.
Amarr has been/still is painted as "Ebil" by short stories, novels etc.
So people go "boo!" and throw insults, using the worst things featured, to dismiss anything and everything you say. Ignoring/banning people from channels is part of it.
Which means, to have any RP other than being insulted all the time, regardless of what you say, then you don't RP with anyone other than people of similar outlook.
Which is what seems to be happening to Sansha now as well.
Then you obviously have a limited perception. Though the insults and whatnot are flung periodically, most oft what I receive is fairly interesting conversation. One of said conversations was recently posted on IGS.
We get the insults, sure. Not to the level you seem to suspect more, more the type that are flung by the caldari to the gallente and vice versa.
It is not the limit of the interaction.
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the amarr comparison is reasonable to a point.
Amarr has been/still is painted as "Ebil" by short stories, novels etc.
So people go "boo!" and throw insults, using the worst things featured, to dismiss anything and everything you say. Ignoring/banning people from channels is part of it.
Which means, to have any RP other than being insulted all the time, regardless of what you say, then you don't RP with anyone other than people of similar outlook.
Which is what seems to be happening to Sansha now as well.
Insults etc are one thing. Banning from neutral RP channels? As far as I know, Amarr RPers have never been banned from the summit for talking about being Amarr. IIRC the Summit was started by an Amarr RPer (using an alt corp, cause, you know, neutrality.)
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That's why I said "to a point".
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Oh and Sansha followers.
Welcome to the shitstorm of what it means to be an Amarrian loyalist.
I had a lovely time (well, Celeste did. While Vieve's back, she ain't gonna be on the Summit) pointing out how Wizwax/Waxwiz/However one spells her name had likely spent her TLF career condemning the same thing the Sansha were doing.
Never really got a straight answer from her on that. Maybe Celeste will need to have another chat with the dear creature.
Edit, because my fever-infested brain failed to let my fingers finish.
In my demented opinion, banning the Sansha supporters from the Summit could deprive everyone, particularly them, of entertainment. Yes, please do bring down the ban hammer on 'lol RPers suxz0r'. Likewise for people behaving like idiots. Like OOC idiots, I mean. Emoting one letter per line. Echoing each other's emotes until dramatic effect turns into spamus absurdius. Crap like that.
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wait, vieve is back?
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Yes. She is. :)
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wait, vieve is back?
The correct answer is "Wait. Vieve was gone?" :P
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wait, vieve is back?
The correct answer is "Wait. Vieve was gone?" :P
Who is Vieve?
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First off, before I go any further, I would like to point out that this is not any intention of making anyone look bad or any such thing, I'm simply trying to bring forth a discussion of something and see what opinions are on it.
Well, that didn't work.
At all, really. Heh.
I definitely think some clarification is in order. I got banned from the channel myself, permanently, for providing false intel (which was entirely in-character), because people were using it as a rallying point to fight off the invasion this afternoon.
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You do realize one of your characters has temporary op rights in the channel you're complaining about being banned from, yes?
Hosting it on the most known and trafficked RP channel, and holding it temporarily under 'martial law' is wrong.
I think for key problem here was the location of the event intself. Having specific conferances used as a rallying point against another entity of the game, should be used in a suitable biased channel for the targeted crowd.
>.>
Ashar co-opted the channel's name recognition to hold the Conference there. the conference is designed to stop Nation. This was ashar's decision, and at the start of this, i requested that he make it a different channel to isolate problems.
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Perhaps the problem is that Ashar used an existing channel for a purpose different from its original intention, thus essentially pushing aside anyone who didn't toe the coalition line.
>< >< ><
There has to be a separate channel for the Conference. During the Summit was a bad decision from the start. A really bad decision.
Statements like this really ought to be qualified.
the amarr comparison is reasonable to a point.
Amarr has been/still is painted as "Ebil" by short stories, novels etc.
So people go "boo!" and throw insults, using the worst things featured, to dismiss anything and everything you say. Ignoring/banning people from channels is part of it.
Which means, to have any RP other than being insulted all the time, regardless of what you say, then you don't RP with anyone other than people of similar outlook.
Which is what seems to be happening to Sansha now as well.
Then you obviously have a limited perception. Though the insults and whatnot are flung periodically, most oft what I receive is fairly interesting conversation. One of said conversations was recently posted on IGS.
Lillith, Amarr have been and are currently being barred, as a race, from certain popular roleplay channels.
Which you don't know about.
Let's not get into limited perceptions.
Important response will be in my next post.
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Next time someone is worried about setting a precedent, I'd ask that you try to contact the potential setter of this precedent. It may be, as in this case, that you're scaring the shit out of people about an illusion of some sort. Potentially, scrappy people who will hound others for a very long time.
I don't think anyone needs that.
For the record, Lillith and I are cool. We talked, there is to be no war, a concordance has been achieved interpersonally.
On the matter of permabans and permamutes and whatever else, we'd just finished a five-hour event, and some of us got very little sleep. Give us latitude.
Soter put those in, by the by, and was scolded by everyone for it. He's pretty short on rest too, what with being the leader of a massive group of players right now.
For the record, they were reversed by me as soon as I learned about them, so there's nothing that came anywhere near setting a solid precedent.
Some things about the Summit certain people, newer ones for example (looking at you, Casi) may not know:
-The (remarkably few) restrictions in the operation of the conference taking place now were designed to welcome, on an out of character level, players representing the enemy. This is why we keep telling people not to post intel or sensitive information in Summit just now. Fuck, I'm moving this point up to the top and reposting it down below later.
-It was created by Gaven Lok'ri, as I understand it, back in the mists of time. Responsibility for it was formally the purview of his alt who was stuck in a corp called the CRC auxiliary. There are some folks in that corp. They're all inactive. They used to be listed as channel mods.
-A while back, I said to Gaven, "Hey, can I do some things with this channel?" He said, "Okay, if I like your plans." I won't go into that too much here, but he handed over mod rights; I co-opted nothing. I currently have some rather unreasonable people talking shit to me about how I've stolen op rights for OOC, too, which is wrong and insulting enough, thank you.
-These plans are somewhat public. Contact me ingame if you want to discuss them, for now.
-The in-character rationale for the shift in control, which to Gaven's credit WAS all done in-character, was that the CRC auxiliary underwent a corporate takeover when the ISD CRC was disbanded by CCP. This was mostly my idea; I don't like players making ISD-themed corps because I find it campy and a possible source of alleged EULA violations.
-Further, the corporation that handled the takeover is one Ashar KorAzor owns all the stock for. As such, the summit IS owned by my main in-character. This generally doesn't affect OOC use of it, but she does talk some shit in there from time to time about it IC, mostly to say 'God, I hate spammers' and 'if you don't let that unpopular person I have not seen fit to ban speak their mind, I will mute you, because you are disrupting their use of the channel.'
-This reflects the actual rules of channel use. Spammers and users that disrupt roleplay are banned and/or muted, usually not permanently. And if you, say, make fun of a recently dead player or something I might ban you. It's happened before.
-Right now, Revan Neferis is on the ban list for a variety of reasons. If you ask nicely, I can tell you why, but basically, lolnazis.
-The channel's first incarnation as a setting, as far as I know, was a big room something like a lecture hall. People spoke there for formal diplomatic presentations and various capsuleer affairs. Some events were arranged there. Over time, it has somewhat drifted away from that, but not really very far in the eyes of its founder.
-I changed the channel description to reflect this drift quite a long time ago. That's probably why the shift to a conference room kinda setting is so new and startling to some - it is a nod to a very old tradition.
-In preparing for this event, I asked the leadership of the foremost groups from active factions as well as a hodgepodge of people their opinion on it and whether I should go forward with it; whether it was a good idea. The groups included the Heiian society, EM and affiliates, Graelyn and his Amarr Confido (however they're spelling it now), any Gallente I could find, Veto and certain other pirate interests, and some Angels supporters. The total number of individuals that knew about this, for DAYS, and had a lot of chances to protest out of character is well over fifty. They didn't.
-In reference to current events, I am not keeping Sansha players from speaking, interacting, or expressing political leanings - unless they get disruptive. Some have been; they're still using it today. Literally, today. This is because there ain't been no permanent muting or banning. Sheesh.
-Less Sansha have been muted (none were banned by me, under my authority, or at my asking, though I think a ban was reversed, thanks, Soter ><) than either non-roleplayers disrupting the event (had a few recruitment spammers, had some jackholes talking shit as expected) OR people without sansha affilation being disruptive loudmouths (many tempmutes were handed out to keep discussion on track).
-The (remarkably few) restrictions in the operation of the conference taking place now were designed to welcome, on an out of character level, players representing the enemy. This is why we keep telling people not to post intel or sensitive information in Summit just now.
-A further misconception is that, again, players of a certain faction are somehow being barred from interacting with others. That one's all you, Lillith. There's endless channels out there that would well serve your purpose, both more heavily populated and more active than the Summit. And being muted for ten minutes at a time really hasn't affected anything in terms of engaging individual players; you can still mail anyone you see talking in there in-character. You can still invite them to private conversations. You can do a number of things because you see people in the channel without speaking to them.
-But I guess that's not something the muted parties got to think about much, being that they were only muted, by me, for a few minutes if at all - if they were muted for roleplaying. I don't think the spammers and smacktalkers were doing anything relevant to roleplay, myself. We could ask them if you like, though :P
-After the conference is over, the Summit will go back to its previous functions and methods of operation.
Finally.
-Almost anyone can come to me and ask to hold an event in the Summit. Frankly, it's boring for the twenty hours out of the day I'm logged in, in my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm going to intentionally alter it to spice things up, but...if what I've done has essentially only added to the active population, I don't think that's adversely affected its capacity as a neutral ground in future.
Which, as my character has said in character, (which she can say after a long, sustained interest in the Nation), has all been the plan the whole time.
Frankly, I've almost never seen anything that compares to the sheer friendliness Ashar's showing these people-borg-things in-character, here.
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Finally, while I'm a bit miffed that the people who have criticized me for pulling together a general roleplay event to generally address current events in a general roleplay channel that I've been responsible for have failed to say word ONE to me about their objections...well.
I did get 182 people into summit, all there looking for roleplay.
I did give them connections to current roleplayer groups.
I did give them lots of little hints about what to do to join the enemy, thus serving both sides sufficiently in the opinion of anyone who's stopped to think it over.
And I did get a news article up about a roleplayer effort for the first time in a while.
Oh! And I have this big pile of mails from budding roleplayers that I can now dump into the community. Like a hundred fucking mails, jesus. There's a few dozen more playmates for y'all, I guess >.>
So, those of you with objections that are still soundly applicable after all the above - I invite you to do better. Certainly no one is stopping you from organizing events yourselves; certainly many will appreciate an attempt.
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I consider the matter resolved, mostly, but I find it amusing that you're essentially arguing that the ends justify the means. I think you could have been just as successful in any other channel had an attempt been made, and this would have been averted entirely.
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-A while back, I said to Gaven, "Hey, can I do some things with this channel?" He said, "Okay, if I like your plans." I won't go into that too much here, but he handed over mod rights; I co-opted nothing.
Pointing out that this isn't what Soter meant when he said you 'co-opted the channel's name recognition for the event', just in case the above quoted was in any way responding to that comment (which I assume since you quoted said comment by Soter. He was only citing one of a possible many reasons why the Conference is being held in that already-popular channel as opposed to some other channel (or a channel of its own).
If you already got that and the above quoted was in fact not in response to Soter's comment, ignore me entirely.
So, those of you with objections that are still soundly applicable after all the above - I invite you to do better. Certainly no one is stopping you from organizing events yourselves; certainly many will appreciate an attempt.
I object. I keep forgetting where the 'input password' box is on the eve client. If I could find it, Havo would sure show the lot of your toons a thing or two about some thing or another.
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I object. I keep forgetting where the 'input password' box is on the eve client. If I could find it, Havo would sure show the lot of your toons a thing or two about some thing or another.
I can help you with this.
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5196/havvohalp.jpg)
About bottom center, there. Just a centimeter or so up from the bottom.
^_^
I co-opted nothing.
Pointing out that this isn't what Soter meant when he said you 'co-opted the channel's name recognition for the event', just in case the above quoted was in any way responding to that comment (which I assume since you quoted said comment by Soter...
...Except then, it comes down to my experience, which includes other such events held in other channels of this size and smaller that I personally ran, which I personally promoted and dragged in guests for, and other people's experience, in which they may not have.
Also, I think name recognition would be a more significant factor if the primary reason for there being this many attendees was the name of the channel.
I think it was the news article.
Otherwise, I co-opted the shared coffee grinder my roomates and I use to grind coffee by making everyone a bunch of coffee this morning, and you're complaining because I didn't originally pay for it, in spite of my maintaining it over the years - and my having the purchaser's permission and the permission of a great slew of the userbase of said appliance - and also, you're bitterly complaining that because I'm using it now and, say, keeping some kid's hands away from the moving parts, I'm making it hard for you to use in any capacity.
I also co-opted the public school I went to when I used it to get those academic awards, I suppose?
And I co-opted the neighbor's cat to get scratched and bitten.
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wait, vieve is back?
The correct answer is "Wait. Vieve was gone?" :P
Who is Vieve?
Bless you. :>
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Next time someone is worried about setting a precedent, I'd ask that you try to contact the potential setter of this precedent. It may be, as in this case, that you're scaring the shit out of people about an illusion of some sort. Potentially, scrappy people who will hound others for a very long time.
That's hard to do sometimes. :P
-Less Sansha have been muted (none were banned by me, under my authority, or at my asking, though I think a ban was reversed, thanks, Soter ><) than either non-roleplayers disrupting the event (had a few recruitment spammers, had some jackholes talking shit as expected) OR people without sansha affilation being disruptive loudmouths (many tempmutes were handed out to keep discussion on track).
Not really relevant - there's only a couple dozen of us compared to thousands of shitcocks. The same thing could be said for roleplayers who have legitimately crossed lines.
-A further misconception is that, again, players of a certain faction are somehow being barred from interacting with others. That one's all you, Lillith. There's endless channels out there that would well serve your purpose, both more heavily populated and more active than the Summit. And being muted for ten minutes at a time really hasn't affected anything in terms of engaging individual players; you can still mail anyone you see talking in there in-character. You can still invite them to private conversations. You can do a number of things because you see people in the channel without speaking to them.
This isn't about "ten minutes at a time". That wasn't an issue -- you were running an event. However being muted for a month and then being told that it was being justified with "I did it for the lolz" amongst a myriad of other changing excuses, such as "Players are upset that people are talking about Sansha and threatening to leave, what am I supposed to do?" and so on is.
That there are other channels out there that are more heavily populated is news to me -- and to many others mind you. As most channels out there that I am even remotely aware of are bars. My character isn't a barfly. I can't really do that, so those are somewhat out of the question. I look over the channel list we have on this very site, and beyond the Summit there's really not a "general" channel that I see that is more populated or something my character would go to.
I realize the "bar" is a common staple in RP, however that doesn't necessarily make it "good", it is, in fact, one of the worst venues because the vast majority of the time you have to manufacture reasons to be there, contrast that to a general comms channel or VR environment and it's far more likely you'll be listening in just for amusement's sake.
-But I guess that's not something the muted parties got to think about much, being that they were only muted, by me, for a few minutes if at all - if they were muted for roleplaying. I don't think the spammers and smacktalkers were doing anything relevant to roleplay, myself. We could ask them if you like, though :P
It is. Don't be under the misconception I didn't spend a great deal of time thinking about this post before I made it. I tried wording it as neutrally as possible -- to various levels of success it seems.
Frankly, I've almost never seen anything that compares to the sheer friendliness Ashar's showing these people-borg-things in-character, here.
"Friendliness"? XD
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Next time someone is worried about setting a precedent, I'd ask that you try to contact the potential setter of this precedent.
That's hard to do sometimes. :P
><
-Evemail
-PMs here or on other forums
-Asking for and getting my MSN, Yahoo, AIM, Gmailchat or ICQ contacts, because yeah, I'd give 'em to you
-Asking some of the other ops, which include Silver Night, or the temp-ops, or the conference organizers
-Waiting six hours and talking to me ingame after I'd woken up and logged on, because it's a week-long event
Come on, Lillith.
-Less Sansha have been muted (none were banned by me, under my authority, or at my asking, though I think a ban was reversed, thanks, Soter ><) than either non-roleplayers disrupting the event (had a few recruitment spammers, had some jackholes talking shit as expected) OR people without sansha affilation being disruptive loudmouths (many tempmutes were handed out to keep discussion on track).
Not really relevant - there's only a couple dozen of us compared to thousands of shitcocks. The same thing could be said for roleplayers who have legitimately crossed lines.
Yes, relevant.
-Only two hundred potential shitcocks at event at PEAK. Less, actually - event peaked at 192. And at least ten Sansha supporters spoke there, which is roughly one in twenty. This is about representative of the different factions and subfactions in EVE.
And last I heard, a whole goddamn allianced had pledged to support you. A couple dozen!?
This isn't about "ten minutes at a time". That wasn't an issue -- you were running an event. However being muted for a month and then being told that it was being justified with "I did it for the lolz" amongst a myriad of other changing excuses, such as "Players are upset that people are talking about Sansha and threatening to leave, what am I supposed to do?" and so on is.
Dealt with, will be dealt with again as necessary, please stop going on about it.
That there are other channels out there that are more heavily populated is news to me -- and to many others mind you. As most channels out there that I am even remotely aware of are bars. My character isn't a barfly. I can't really do that, so those are somewhat out of the question. I look over the channel list we have on this very site, and beyond the Summit there's really not a "general" channel that I see that is more populated or something my character would go to.
Well, on the one hand, leverage social capital harder.
On the other hand, create some, you curmudgeon. Some things must still be wrought by the work of man :P
And on the gripping hand, you may have to shift your definition of a 'general' channel slightly, but they're not bars or bar-having clubs or 'drinky establishments' of any stripe. Some are resturants, mind. But certainly not all.
I realize the "bar" is a common staple in RP, however that doesn't necessarily make it "good", it is, in fact, one of the worst venues because the vast majority of the time you have to manufacture reasons to be there, contrast that to a general comms channel or VR environment and it's far more likely you'll be listening in just for amusement's sake.
Whatever works. Some of us don't share your problems, honestly.
-But I guess that's not something the muted parties got to think about much, being that they were only muted, by me, for a few minutes if at all - if they were muted for roleplaying. I don't think the spammers and smacktalkers were doing anything relevant to roleplay, myself. We could ask them if you like, though :P
It is. Don't be under the misconception I didn't spend a great deal of time thinking about this post before I made it.
I think the main point is that you made it in public at all and phrased it as a community discussion before ensuring that there was anything to discuss other than some mod-happy, tired guy's handiwork.
Again, sheesh.
I tried wording it as neutrally as possible -- to various levels of success it seems.
:S
Frankly, I've almost never seen anything that compares to the sheer friendliness Ashar's showing these people-borg-things in-character, here.
"Friendliness"? XD
Well, let's consider.
-You took a million people hostage right out of her backyard, and
-You are supporters of a raving lunatic who is mean and crazy and deadly and bad for sanity, and
-You are the enemy now of not just much of the cluster, but capsuleers in particular, and
-You can still come to the conference she made to work against you, and
-You can even talk there until you start preaching in return, and
-You are allowed to speak in channels she owns after your arguably (IC at least) undertake efforts to do genocidal shit unto others.
God DAMN, is my main friendly.
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I have never really understood the Summit, honestly....it does seem rather out of character. For what it is though, it should probably be kept as open as possible, as a neutral ground -- but things like this conference are decidedly not what it should be hosting. It probably would have been better to start another channel and then post about it in the MOTD or something.
I've always wondered why there isn't another channel for "legitimate" pilots (ie, those from the Empires or legitimate businesses) only. There's certainly enough "bars" and venues where the scum of the cluster congregate. :P Perhaps after Incarna drops Svetlana will have a place to go where she isn't accosted by pirate scum. :P That being said, it's clear the Summit is not supposed to be that, and if the conference is supposed to be for fighting the Sansha, it seems smarter to host it in a channel which bars the Sansha and their sympathizers (or even people who would be willing to work with them for a price) entry.
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Ashar, can you explain why, in the face of a seeming consensus that disagrees with you, you feel that this conference belongs in The Summit rather than a dedicated channel? If my premises are faulty, please correct me; I'm not trying to trap you, but rather to understand. :)
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Well, Casi, a consensus among the people posting in this thread is hardly a consensus in the community. I mean, first of all, there are more than a dozen people in the community by about two powers of ten, and there are less than a dozen people posting in this thread. And out of that subset, not all agree.
Also, there are less people commenting in this thread than I asked about this shindig of mine.
Also, there are less people outright attacking the notion that such events belong in a certain channel than are supporting it vehemently and also happen to be leaders in currently active roleplay groups. They're a bit busy, but they can be along shortly to tell you they disagree with you.
So I'm basically possessed of a few disagreeing opinions and a number of people cheering me on. That's close to that bit in the middle where you've got some with you and some against you, so you must be doing something right, IIRC?
It'd be best to maintain your position, I think, on the merits of YOUR position and not those of others. If you have a position with real merit in the face of the points I have raised, you will win me over. That's how a good-faith discussion works, and I've certainly been won over before.
I won't, however, change my behavior because some people out of a very large group say 'fuck you, Ashar.' I'm not expecting to please everyone; some small portion of everyone I interact with is displeased with any given thing I do.
Hell, there's people in the Arab world who cringe when they find out that you might wipe yourself with your right hand.
Gonna please them, too?
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Since you've chosen to take that tack, responding to one piece of the question rather than its substance (i.e. why the conference belongs in a general RP channel, thus monopolizing its use for a specific purpose), I think I'll have to decline further conversation on this topic.
Otherwise I'll get suspended, and I don't want that.
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Christ's sake.
I said what I said because I thought you had actually read my posts and thought about their content, Casiella.
For additional clarity:
-The channel's first incarnation as a setting, as far as I know, was a big room something like a lecture hall. People spoke there for formal diplomatic presentations and various capsuleer affairs. Some events were arranged there. Over time, it has somewhat drifted away from that, but not really very far in the eyes of its founder.
The channel's pedigree and purpose fit the event.
People wanted it there. Not just me.
It's a general purpose roleplay event in relation to everything current-dev-events.
You don't like that? Fine.
You don't see it that way? Fine.
You claim about a dozen voices is all the consensus you need? Fine.
There's a button in your interface, channels window, for making your own place. Maybe people who adhere to your idea of what is reasonable can be convinced to hang there, then.
I certainly don't think you're being reasonable.
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I don't recall that being the case, and I was there at the time.
It's possible I don't recall correctly. Would be good if we could get ahold of Gaven and resolve this disparity in recollection.
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I apologize upfront if you took my post as an attack on you, but I was simply talking about where this is all happening. Granted compared to many other players here I am a newer player, with less knowledge of all the politics and workings that go on around here, but my perception of the The Summit was always a sort of VR extension of the IGS, in that its a neutral medium for anyone to voice themselves without being censored barred of being out-of-character or the usual obnoxiousness. I wasn't around when it was a lecture hall before. When I simply saw from here that someone gotten muted/banned for the faction they're part of, I simply had to jump in and voice my opinion of that. There is never a time on the IGS, that during a certain period, everyone from a certain alliance or faction has to look the other way while the other people discuss things. It sounds silly.
I understand how crazy that first conferance was, as I was there watching and sticking around to keep a log of the event, and is commendable for hosting something for that length of time for everyone. I would hope more people would step up and take after that. I at least acknowledge that.
I admit jumping into this thread like everyone else was a bit impulsive on my behalf. However, I never would say 'Fuck you, Ashar.' Unless of course, you request it. ;)
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I don't recall that being the case, and I was there at the time.
It's possible I don't recall correctly. Would be good if we could get ahold of Gaven and resolve this disparity in recollection.
Heh.
My strongest piece of evidence for this aside from memory and so forth, I think, is a little stack of comics people drew to lampoon the involvement of some early loudmouths like Archbishop and Intaki Union which displayed them sitting at what looked like delegate's tables in the UN.
Anyway, onward. Forever upward.
I apologize upfront if you took my post as an attack on you, but I was simply talking about where this is all happening. Granted compared to many other players here I am a newer player, with less knowledge of all the politics and workings that go on around here, but my perception of the The Summit was always a sort of VR extension of the IGS, in that its a neutral medium for anyone to voice themselves without being censored barred of being out-of-character or the usual obnoxiousness. I wasn't around when it was a lecture hall before. When I simply saw from here that someone gotten muted/banned for the faction they're part of, I simply had to jump in and voice my opinion of that. There is never a time on the IGS, that during a certain period, everyone from a certain alliance or faction has to look the other way while the other people discuss things. It sounds silly.
I understand how crazy that first conferance was, as I was there watching and sticking around to keep a log of the event, and is commendable for hosting something for that length of time for everyone. I would hope more people would step up and take after that. I at least acknowledge that.
I admit jumping into this thread like everyone else was a bit impulsive on my behalf. However, I never would say 'Fuck you, Ashar.' Unless of course, you request it. ;)
'Kay. You are forgiven :P
For the record, a lot of people lament the fact that there's very little moderation of any useful kind on the IGS.
When someone is being a fuckhat, the only recourse is to petition en masse for a forum ban. Is that a forum as it should be in your eyes?
A lot of the circumstances of how things are currently are either arbitrary, or left up to the vagaries of the legal circumstances, developer intentions, moderator load balancing, and how few percent of EVE's playerbase are active roleplayers on the forums.
We're not hard to marginalize. Devs take the path of least resistance in community relations quite a bit.
I submit to you that this is not an ideal thing.
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First things first:
And last I heard, a whole goddamn allianced had pledged to support you. A couple dozen!?
Just because Cry Havoc (I think) and Archaeus of Blood pledged support doesn't mean they've actually done anything yet. Remember that. :)
Second things not quite so first:
People. Slow down a bit. This thread was brought forth to bring up a discussion that I saw as a trend with a couple of actions that showed a precedent for something.
I've tried very hard to reiterate numerous times that this is not a witch hunt. We are not going after people, because nothing technically wrong has actually happened. I even took the time to redact the individual in question that put on the month-long mute that I will stress again was removed a few minutes later (before the thread started even) (and also wasn't Ashar, mind you) specifically so people wouldn't start tar and feathering, and when approached by Ashar made it absolutely clear that I wasn't going to say who it was unless it was agreed they wouldn't catch any flak for it.
Because nothing has been done that was wrong.
This is not a witch hunt -- get off Ashar's back. He shouldn't be on the defensive here, like he has been, this was entirely intended as primarily a discussion about what the Summit is and whether or not certain current trends are good or bad or neither.
I'm not exactly certain where my intention went dreadfully awry, but I'm going to suggest it has to do with the intertubes.
Anyway, I am digressing a bit.
Please, carry on, but let's back off on the pitchforks a bit, shall we?
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and also, you're bitterly complaining
I haven't complained about anything; my opinion on this whole business is neutral. I do think you're taking a pretty innocent comment (the one Soter made) together with the rest of this topic way too personally and bitterly complaining yourself, though, and could probably calm down?
Lillith made a thread about whether people think it's good for the RP community as a whole to ban someone from certain types of IC channel, especially general community channels like the Summit, based on their chosen RP faction. Why don't we go back to having a thread about that instead of an "Ashar must defend himself against the masses" thread. Because it didn't start out as any kind of witch hunt. The idea that something being discussed has only happened once in recent memory and that one time was only done by one person doesn't make the whole discussion an attack on that one person.
I'd quote stuff Lillith said in the post right before this one, but I'd be quoting like 90% of it so I might as well just point to it.
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Well it depends on the channel ownership. Pie had an ic channel and the block the opposition as a proper IC responce. If the summit is for the lawful empires then lawless pirates should be removed, if the summit is not. Then it shouldn't be. I don't actually know what the IC purpose if the summit is.
However I strongly disagree with using the OOC argument to discredit an IC boot/ban. RP should have consequences, I'm now blocked from pie's IC channel and that is correct.
Again, only if the summit is pro-the empires under concord.
Also bring block from the Summit in no way kills anyones ability to rp. Igs, eve mails, personal chats, local, other popular channels...dozen other ways interactions can be made to happen. I rarely use the summit myself, very little substance occures. It's more like a chat room bar/pub . That and there are so many alts.
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It's getting to the point were we have way to many channels as it is. Decentralization is important but sheesh adding another channel just for this conference would have been approaching ridiculousness. The summit was a good choice because it's name is well known. As far as I know all the Sansha faction can still use the channel they were just muted for derailing the planning process. Which is fine, attacking the conference in that way is cool, but don't be surprised when the moderators chose to counter-attack with a 10 minute long mute.
Now that being I feel like shit for banning Ghost Hunter from the College because I consider him one of the places regulars and it was never intended to be an intel channel, but really if people aren't going to use for that because he's in there then I have to remove him.
:cry:
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My outlook on this discussion is that it basically has to be considered as an IC question.
The Summit is an IC channel. IC it was founded as a neutral discussion venue with a 'CRC Auxiliary' which operated to maintain that neutrality and stop real disruption (ie. people doing OOC stuff in there or going totally beyond the pale with a thin veneer of IC on top of it.)
The name CRC Auxiliary in itself gives you an indication of intent, as does 'The Summit'. It was conceived as nothing less than an in-game channel equivalent to IGS.
As such, the core IC attribute of the channel was its utter and total neutrality.
Everyone could go there, their opinions could be heard, they could interact IC with others of any kind and any stripe.
That's the basic facts.
What's happened now is that the essential IC neutrality of the venue has been compromised.
That's the IC fact.
People can say that creating a specific channel for the conference would be ridiculous and they are entitled to that opinion. But I'm not sure why it would be ridiculous. It would be a temporary channel.
The alternative was to use an existing channel and I am inclined to feel that this could have happened at many other non-neutral IC venues. It could have happened in an IC bar or club where it would be reasonable for controls to exist and not distort the long-term function of the bar or club.
Where it happened was 'The Summit' and by happening there, and by IC unreasonable measures by the IC standards of the venue being taken against IC dissenting voices - indeed, for dissent to be recast as 'disruption' IC, it has become compromised IC.
How people deal with that is ultimately for them and is primarily an IC question.
I just think that it is rather sad. It was the one IC channel everyone regarded as impeccably neutral.
That's gone now. And when that goes it rarely comes back.
I would echo the view that nothing has been done wrong OOC. It's all entirely legitimate RP.
I just don't think the IC consequences of it are escapable.
Cosmo
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Well if you go IC then its alright.
IC, The Summit has never been neutral, there is filthy heathens in there.
It's all about perspective.
If one event with a purpose 'taints' the channel then suit yourself.
There has been plenty of events in the channels history where different factions have stood on their soap boxes in the same channel with their enemies and they have asked the moderators of that channel to moderate the event so that there would not be bias.
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Perhaps a compromise: in normal times, it retains its neutrality. During CCP sanctioned events that have many involved, it shifts to cater that purpose. Considering that is what is being done now, only that explanation would need to be mentioned.
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I haven't complained about anything; my opinion on this whole business is neutral. I do think you're taking a pretty innocent comment (the one Soter made) together with the rest of this topic way too personally and bitterly complaining yourself, though, and could probably calm down?
Eh. The 'you' in the comments you're referencing wasn't meant to be you individually, and neither was the 'I.'
But I am using it to mean you and me individually now when responding to your post.
My mistake then; sorry for the misunderstanding :)
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My mistake then; sorry for the misunderstanding :)
No worries. I'll try to reel in the self-assertion a bit.
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Well if you go IC then its alright.
IC, The Summit has never been neutral, there is filthy heathens in there.
It's all about perspective.
If one event with a purpose 'taints' the channel then suit yourself.
There has been plenty of events in the channels history where different factions have stood on their soap boxes in the same channel with their enemies and they have asked the moderators of that channel to moderate the event so that there would not be bias.
If you want to take the position it has never been neutral IC then that's fair enough. I don't myself think there has been an event in the past in The Summit where members of a particular faction were silenced for belonging to that faction.
That's the IC development that I think fatally undercuts any IC sense that the venue exists for discussion and, indeed, events held in a neutral setting.
It is indeed a 'taint' IC. OOC, I wouldn't care to venture an opinion. It's really up to people what direction they want to take an IC channel in.
Cosmo
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I don't myself think there has been an event in the past in The Summit where members of a particular faction were silenced for belonging to that faction.
Hasn't been one up to the present, or in the present, either.
Re-read the thread.
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To Ashar:
The amount of concerned replies here (in comparison to other issues) indicates that holding the conference in the summit channel was *not* a good idea.
This is independent of any arguments *why* it would be a bad idea (or good idea). A number of people are agitated. I don't believe that was not your intention, but it happened anyway.
People being agitated is independent of all the people that *did* enjoy the conference being in the summit channel.
People being agitated is independent of the appreciation people have for you organizing such a thing or running the channel.
Would these troubles have been avoided when the conference was held in another channel? Yes, I would think so.
Would there have been a big loss in accessibility of the conference when it was held in a separate channel? No, I don't think so.
Hence my suggestion for next time would be: use a separate channel.
Again, I consider the summit RP light, and hence good for people getting their feet wet in RP. I don't think seeing people getting muted and banned for IC reasons is good RP-PR (excuse my tiny pun) however reasonable and well-founded the ban.
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Ashar,
I think it would be more useful in this particular case to stop analysing this thing, just try it in a separate channel next time, then evaluate both ways and come to a conclusion.
I believe we are running the risk in arguing for arguments sake, and while I love to do that IC, I believe it would be counterproductive here.
I see the number of replies as a hint. You are free to determine why or what kind of hint it would be.
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[mod]Had some reports about people's choice of words and things in this thread.There are some that are very problematic. Please do not make things worse.[/mod]
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I am simply going to continue discussing the issue of this thread trusting the moderators to deal with concerns I will quite happily admit I have raised and I will be abiding by their rulings without demur, I might add.
So, to continue dealing with the topic.
As an IC channel it is entirely fine to mute Sansha supporters for an IC reason (even if that had IC consequences for the IC status of the channel). Doing so because they were Sansha supporters would have been legitimate in that sense.
If they were muted for OOC reasons to do with organisational convenience, desire to keep certain classes of players in the channel who would leave if certain RP was allowed, etc., then that's a whole other discussion, isn't it? I rather assumed these or similar OOC reasons were not what was being discussed. I still do assume such OOC reasons are not under discussion because I still believe that what is under discussion is a posited trend highlighted by what several people appear to believe happened with regards to a particular IC channel.
The trend Lillith seems to have identified and wished to discuss was one of a neutral RP venue losing its neutrality and if this is desirable. Or as Havohej put it: "Lillith made a thread about whether people think it's good for the RP community as a whole to ban someone from certain types of IC channel, especially general community channels like the Summit, based on their chosen RP faction."
As I earlier said, it's ultimately an IC question as to whether a channel can be regarded as neutral IC.
The whole point of calling that channel 'The Summit' and to have it originally run by a 'CRC Auxiliary' was to ape, in the best sense, IGS and its inherent neutrality. This was done so that people could more readily transfer their IC acceptance (practically unspoken because it to many it is so obviously the fact) that IGS is neutral to The Summit channel. This was the way to deal with the problem many have raised of the extent that one could believe such a channel was neutral.
Obviously, some characters don't believe a channel can be neutral and it's rather moot for them. This is especially so if they are characters that don't see IGS as neutral (a perfectly reasonable IC position).
But other characters do think you can have a neutral venue where capsuleers of every stripe and hue can talk without fear of being censored because of who they are and what they reasonably say. The Summit answered this need. It is now debateable, witness this very thread, as to whether it still does.
The pertinent question for me is whether such a need still exists. Which is another way at looking at whether or not the trend under discussion is desirable or not.
There was another element to what Lillith wanted to discuss as well which has been a trifle sidelined: the fracturing or isolating effect that this trend could have on RP in general. I rather agree that lack of a 'common ground RP venue' could have a fracturing or isolating effect.
If this is not desirable as a trend, if the need that The Summit originally answered still exists, and people feel a need to address the danger of isolation then it is probably up to people to do something about it.
In that regard, the discussion could, if people are so inclined, take a positive and constructive turn and focus on practical solutions rather than another half-dozen pages of analysis. I would certainly welcome that and be happy to make no further comment on what may or may not have happened.
Cosmo
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[mod]I moved some problematic posts.I don't want to have to do this again.[/mod]
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In that regard, the discussion could, if people are so inclined, take a positive and constructive turn and focus on practical solutions rather than another half-dozen pages of analysis.
This please.
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To clarify, I left the thread (and will do so again momentarily) because I don't believe that the responses given are conducive to a polite, civil, respectful debate, and thus see no point in continuing to discuss them here.
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To clarify, I left the thread (and will do so again momentarily) because I don't believe that the responses given are conducive to a polite, civil, respectful debate, and thus see no point in continuing to discuss them here.
I dunno, I talked to some pretty sensitive folks about your responses and I'm beginning to believe it's wholly personal.
We could try to resolve it privately, if you like.
As an IC channel it is entirely fine to mute Sansha supporters for an IC reason (even if that had IC consequences for the IC status of the channel). Doing so because they were Sansha supporters would have been legitimate in that sense.
Didn't happen.
-Someone muted someone for spreading false intelligence, and that was overturned, and
-Someone muted someone for going on about their shit, and that was overturned.
If they were muted for OOC reasons to do with organisational convenience, desire to keep certain classes of players in the channel who would leave if certain RP was allowed, etc., then that's a whole other discussion, isn't it?
I think it's actually a whole 'nother non-discussion.
I rather assumed these or similar OOC reasons were not what was being discussed. I still do assume such OOC reasons are not under discussion because I still believe that what is under discussion is a posited trend highlighted by what several people appear to believe happened with regards to a particular IC channel.
[ 2010.05.19 01:46:34 ] Lillith Blackheart > I'm actually less concerned about me being muted for a month than I am about the precedent that that can set, you know?
[ 2010.05.19 01:46:48 ] Lillith Blackheart > You know how I get about precedents. ;)
[ 2010.05.19 01:46:50 ] Ashar KorAzor > There's no precedent for that, now or ever, and as such cease worrying about it :P
I think Lillith might just have failed to properly sanitize his initial post of specific references, and the remaining ones torpedoed the discussion into specifics with some illusion sitting on everyone's chests regarding what we were actually doing.
I think it disingenuous to continue to rub it in people's faces.
The whole point of calling that channel 'The Summit' and to have it originally run by a 'CRC Auxiliary' was to ape, in the best sense, IGS and its inherent neutrality. This was done so that people could more readily transfer their IC acceptance (practically unspoken because it to many it is so obviously the fact) that IGS is neutral to The Summit channel. This was the way to deal with the problem many have raised of the extent that one could believe such a channel was neutral.
IGS isn't inherently neutral or general.
The in-character implications of speaking on it are that you're always, always undertaking a form of extremely public address that's checked by persons all over the New Eden cluster by the thousands, who are all capsuleers and may want to come and kill you.
There's reasons IGS generally turns into chest-beating, posturing, and the place where some diplomatic iceberg's visible tip floats out on top of the currents of machinations and PR. It is not a 'general roleplay' setting to any real extent, and as such not comparable to these examples people keep framing.
There was another element to what Lillith wanted to discuss as well which has been a trifle sidelined: the fracturing or isolating effect that this trend could have on RP in general. I rather agree that lack of a 'common ground RP venue' could have a fracturing or isolating effect.
Yeah, the reasons for the fractures in roleplay don't break down to 'some people might be muted in general channels.'
Primarily because they haven't been by the party responsible for setting policy and maintaining standards in said channel.
Secondarily because the last time I asked key parties about it, I was told that it was an intentional response to bad blood and the interest in keeping things small and easily controllable, which meant there was extreme simplicity in applying a break to new shit the old guard didn't like as well as to troubling out of character sentiments.
And finally, speaking as someone who used to and will again be going out to trawl for recruits and newcomers and silent actors, there is also a much, MUCH greater impact on fracturing and a lack of useful incorporation or institutionalization because:
-The community is inaccessible.
-The setting's fiction is inaccessible.
Fixing that will do a lot more for the perceived fractures than altering or maintaining the function of any one channel.
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Talked to Havvo. Am told I can repost my post sans about twelve words.
The amount of concerned replies here (in comparison to other issues) indicates that holding the conference in the summit channel was *not* a good idea.
This seems to be the crux of your point.
The trouble is, this doesn't do a terribly good job of reflecting things factually. There's seventy six replies including yours above, but what they maintain isn't based on their number; it's based on their content.
I've read them and spoken to the posters elsewhere in some cases. I'm going to break it down for you, here, because it seems you're reading a starkly different thread than I am.
People don't really like it when I do things like this, for some reason. It strikes them as unfair, as if I am cheating in presenting an argument by the numbers.
Here's a list of all the posters in the thread, broken into groups by opinions and positions they've espoused and arranged in their individual groups by order of appearance:
These are the people who, in the context of this thread alone, either supported the idea from the start or had their concerns addressed directly in a way they found satisfactory as far as I could surmise from their posts here and from ingame conversations:
1. Lillith
2. Izzy
3. Kaldor
4. Kaleigh
5. Saxon
6. lallara
7. Havvo
8. Ze'ev
9. Jules
10. Lou
11. Vieve
12. Tomahawk Bliss (whom I hesitate to mention as I expect that in doing so, I will have it turned against me by same.)
13. Hamish
These are people who are either on the fence about it/in a position of compromise or in disagreement with something other than anything I have presented, or fact, or haven't spoken up again in the course of the thread:
1. Arvo Katsuya (who was last heard seeking compromise)
2. Seriphyn (who specified nothing until I asked ingame, and I remember the answer was pretty middling in its relevance)
3. Svetlana Scarlet (who has a different conception of the channel and conference than I do, and this matters because my conception of the conference shapes the conference more directly than anyone else's)
These are people that are or were in firm disagreement at the time of their last post:
1. Casi (A self-admitted non-user of the channel in question)
2. Merdaneth (who is raising a point about the number of responses in the thread as his main argument, and not about sentiments expressed)
3. The Cosmopolite (someone I certainly haven't seen using the channel heavily, for at least two years)
4 Silver
You want me to not do something because a few people, so far, have come to me to express some irritation, which in many cases was their first response and not their last?
Really?
I don't buy that irritating a couple of people for ten minutes by having someone else fuck something up or misrepresent me is a sinker for this train of thought.
I also don't buy that three to six people's objections over something should stop me pleasing a group ten to twenty times their size - ten beforehand, I might add - for the sake of not mildly irritating three to six people, for the same reason I don't buy not telling you out of character that your playstyle needs to go or your roleplay is wrong - or listen to people that tell ME that.
'Cause what it's all coming across as, chiefly, is 'your perception of the purpose and function of this chunk of the setting we share is wrong! And you need positively everyone's permission to impact it to any extent.'
To which I can only say, really? Why? Why isn't it enough to let dozens of people have a party in the community pool on tuesdays if you get it back to normal the day after? The hard rules of the community let them do it - is it really their responsibility to go knocking on every door and gaining permission?
I don't really think it is.
And yet, we did manage to come to an interesting point.
I think it would be more useful in this particular case to stop analysing this thing, just try it in a separate channel next time, then evaluate both ways and come to a conclusion.
See, this says something about the chain of events people are forseeing.
People seem to see it like this.
Use of the summit for events -> permanent impact on the function of the channel when not in use for events -> erosion of communal assurances of certain channel functions being available -> less use of channel for certain setting-relevant conditions dependent, in their view, on prior functions -> death of channel from mismanagement.
I take issue with several portions of thought structure.
Use of the summit for events -> permanent impact on the function of the channel when not in use for events - if we were to have events in the summit every day of the year, robbing it of it's dependable default function as, essentially, a communications node, that'd be one thing. However, I'm responding to a very specific developer event - one that unifies the entire capsuleer community against another type of transhuman character archetype.
Permanent impact on the function of the channel when not in use for events -> erosion of communal assurances of certain channel functions being available - This is to say, if I EVER have one event in the Summit that involves strong sentiment against a specific faction, it is permanently marred by that.
Which is to say that something can never be recognized as distinct from its history; what the summit is after these events will somehow not impact its image or use at that time more than its having hosted this conference, or at least not sufficiently to maintain its capacity to fill its niche of neutrality. In light of the enemy faction's pilots being able to say 'we were able to speak unimpeded there - unless we were disruptive - while in the MIDDLE of an enemy conference set against us' affects that. And if they won't say it, we'll all say it for us - all two hundred of us.
Erosion of communal assurances of certain channel functions being available -> less use of channel for certain setting-relevant conditions dependent, in their view, on prior functions -> death of channel from mismanagement - Basically, this suggests that nobody will change strategy if things actually worsen over time, and that things will worsen over time because of a perceived alteration.
I find that the sort of character who would fail to reassess current events constantly and change their behavior as such a reassessment prompted laughably unsuitable for a 'general roleplay' setting. So when we switch back to good ol' business as usual mode and are plainly still neutral to everyone, as we largely have been throughout the conference, yeah, no.
MY line of thinking, on the other hand, is:
Use of summit for events -> leveraging of holistic resources (event draw of roleplayers, news article) to bring more people into the channel that are interested in roleplay -> having exposure for the summit as a general roleplay channel drastically increase because so many more people have it in their channels lists or have heard of it as a roleplay channel of some sort -> later use of channel by more players -> promotion of channel, growth of community.
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So the sansha conference can be held in the summit aswell then?
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I feel my name on that list is mis-representative. I still strongly disagree, which didn't change during our discussion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that I was simply not clear enough about that. I just decided there there would be no gain in trying to argue with you about it further. I hadn't planned on coming back to this thread, but I felt that required clarification.
Edit: I would suggest that if you are going to make lists of people, you are extraordinarily careful that they don't feel that such lists misrepresent their position.
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Well, I must say that I'm content to see certain things said and remain in full view of all, so I welcome their return in a modified form.
Leaving aside ingredients lists, quasi-roborative nostrums and exhortations to have ten ears of corn rise where before one struggled to grow (allegedly), I believe the discussion still needs to turn to practical solutions to the real issue.
The issue, really, is one of perception because neutrality is a matter of perception, largely, and if an RP channel that existed to provide a neutral, common ground is seen to lose its neutrality then, in effect, it actually has.
The solutions really boil down to:
1) Fix perceived problems with an existing resource.
2) Start again somewhere else.
I don't see much fixing going on. I see a lot of editorializing about people raising concerns. But I don't see their concerns being addressed.
So it is starting to look like solution No. 2 may be needed.
In fact, my recent experience tells me that solution No. 2 may be the healthy option given the life-enhancing properties of good old competition.*
Cosmo
* Yes, really, I am starting to come round to that point of view.
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I could support that, assuming that it has something different to offer besides a different mod list.
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1. Lillith
2. Izzy
3. Kaldor
4. Kaleigh
5. Saxon
6. lallara
7. Havvo
8. Ze'ev
9. Saxon
10. Jules
11. Lou
12. Vieve
13. Tomahawk Bliss (whom I hesitate to mention as I expect that in doing so, I will have it turned against me by same.)
14. Hamish
Saxon Hawke, the man so nice you list him twice!
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A more succinct take on my position.
"The horse is already splattered across the Interstate. Could we please move on from how and why the freaking barn doors got opened?"
An addendum to that take:
"My opinion on this also doesn't mean a damn."
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So the sansha conference can be held in the summit aswell then?
Sure, if it's a conference that rallies or welcomes the overwhelming majority of the capsuleers in EVE.
There's been mention of Sansha supporters inviting people over en masse to go and make clear their position on something in a friendly fashion, or offer some benefit; apologists of the Nation-de-facto, so to speak. They're certainly welcome to it.
Saxon Hawke, the man so nice you list him twice!
Fixed.
I feel my name on that list is mis-representative. I still strongly disagree, which didn't change during our discussion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that I was simply not clear enough about that. I just decided there there would be no gain in trying to argue with you about it further. I hadn't planned on coming back to this thread, but I felt that required clarification.
Edit: I would suggest that if you are going to make lists of people, you are extraordinarily careful that they don't feel that such lists misrepresent their position.
Fixed.
And yeah, I'll take the benefit of the doubt, considering you said 'let's see what happens' or some idiomatic relative thereof a couple of times in our chat, apparently out of kindness when I needed none.
Just...next time you spend a quarter of an hour talking to me about it, why not say 'let's agree to disagree,' or some variant of that? Judging by the past, you and I both can.
Leaving aside ingredients lists, quasi-roborative nostrums and exhortations to have ten ears of corn rise where before one struggled to grow (allegedly),
Tell me, have you ever promoted a setting to a wider base?
How do you do it?
I find it markedly easy to tar and feather those you would criticize as sellers of snake-oil, but to be frank, the homeopathic elixirs you have yourself brewed out in the open in recent years have not been of the in-character variety.
I've actually done this before.
The issue, really, is one of perception because neutrality is a matter of perception, largely, and if an RP channel that existed to provide a neutral, common ground is seen to lose its neutrality then, in effect, it actually has.
The solutions really boil down to:
1) Fix perceived problems with an existing resource.
2) Start again somewhere else.
If:
- it's a matter of perception and,
- some will always perceive a single precedent, however non-representative or distant of current circumstances, as a vital source of input on the truth, the facts, the end of the line,
then there was simply nothing I could have done to please everyone from the start.
Certainly, I will not make promises that I'll never again see a reason to host an event in a given setting if I'm in a position to.
I could support that, assuming that it has something different to offer besides a different mod list.
Then, by all means, let's go and make a new thread and wash our hands of this embarrassing tract of how the few and repetitive go against the one and defensive to little gain.
A hint, though - don't try to please everyone.
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A hint, though - don't try to please everyone.
I learned that life lesson many years ago, the hard way (probably took a few tries to get it through my thick skull). :)
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Does this count as a Threadnaught yet or is it still just a T2 Babblecruiser?
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Does this count as a Threadnaught yet or is it still just a T2 Babblecruiser?
By Backstage standards, it just might ^^
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Does this count as a Threadnaught yet or is it still just a T2 Babblecruiser?
Have the same points been brought up on page 7 as page 2? If so - Threadnaught!
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\o/
The first official Threadnaught of Backstage!
\o/
I am not sure why I am proud of this hallmark.
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There has been plenty of events in the channels history where different factions have stood on their soap boxes in the same channel with their enemies and they have asked the moderators of that channel to moderate the event so that there would not be bias.
Restricting your opposition's capability to dissent in the same medium being used to assent...
...removes bias?