Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 12 Jan 2013, 11:25
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I don't think they are, but back in 2009 when the Caldari won all the systems, there were complaints about CCP being biased against Gallente. Now that it's the Gallente controlling everything in 2013, there are complaints it is CCP being biased against Caldari.
A general issue is each of the four factions being portrayed with any empathetic elements at all. An oppressive religion and slavery for the Amarr, inept tribal administration for the Minmatar, social Darwinism and fascism* for the Caldari, and amoral hedonism for the Fed. Look at the latest news article; apparently Gallente love watching videos of wartime atrocities moreso than anyone else.
So, yeah, CCP are biased against everyone, and probably should show why we want to associate with them at all. The whole 'good guy' thing with Gallente is mostly an assumptive extrapolation from the fact a lot of their introductory text says they're democratic.
*Fascism in the closest near-consensus definition of it, not the "People in power we don't like" definition.
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:grimdark:
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wat
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All factions being 'evil' is nothing new.
The reason behind it might be just 'grimdark', or it might be there to encourage the players to create their own factions in 0.0 and not latch on to existing corrupt ones.
Which kind of flies in the face of developing FW and tying DUST into it.
But you know it might be logical development strategy to someone from Iceland.
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1.) You edited your post after I replied.
2.) It honestly puzzles me how you could ever believe that the gallente were the true hoeroes, knights in white shining armor, rescuing damsels in distress (sic!).
Edit: To clarify, EVE has always been shades of black, for in the grim nightmare of the far future there can be only war. ;)
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1.) You edited your post after I replied.
At the time that I read his post, Lyn was the only one who had replied in the thread. His post looked the same as it does now.
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2.) It honestly puzzles me how you could ever believe that the gallente were the true hoeroes, knights in white shining armor, rescuing damsels in distress (sic!).
Where have I said that?
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2.) It honestly puzzles me how you could ever believe that the gallente were the true hoeroes, knights in white shining armor, rescuing damsels in distress (sic!).
Where have I said that?
You've intimated as much several times just around me. I mean, you're free to RP that, certainly, but don't deny it.
Anyway, there are some who feel that there's a difference between "Caldari NPCs are slightly better" and CCP freezing a see-saw in favor of Gallente when they held almost all the Caldari systems. Apparently that alone caused a bunch of Caldari FWers to quit in disgust.
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Claims of CCP bias tend to come from people who want to create excuses for why their faction isn't 'winning'. I certainly felt no need to say so when I was rp'ing a Fed and the Caldari took all the systems, and I feel no need to say it when rp'ing a Caldari and the Fed has taken all the systems in FW.
I quite enjoyed watching as Roden with the SDII came into power in the Federation off the back of the 'loss' in FW just as I will no doubt enjoy watching events unfold in the State off the back of its 'loss' in FW. That is what can be amusing at times, as your enemy rejoices in their victories they provide fertile ground for fear and reactionary development. For the metagame is clear, so long as FW remains a game feature the causes for the continuation of the war must be created irrespective of how many systems one side holds over the other.
No doubt some might call the potential developments in the State as a result of FW as 'losing' if it results in it being portrayed as anything less than the, "Good guys" but in the end New Eden remains a particularly dystopian, dysfunctional and politically incorrect setting if you're a capsuleer by the standards of modern, western thinking. New Eden is a morally ambiguous place where the lines between right and wrong, good or evil can be blurred because everyone has their own perspectives and thoughts on what they are.
That's what makes it so fun.
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...but in the end New Eden remains a particularly dystopian, dysfunctional and politically incorrect setting if you're a capsuleer by the standards of modern, western thinking. New Eden is a morally ambiguous place where the lines between right and wrong, good or evil can be blurred because everyone has their own perspectives and thoughts on what they are.
That's what makes it so fun.
There's been a distinct lack of negative characterization of the Federation compared to that leveled at the Amarr and Caldari. The worst TEA, TBL and so forth have leveled at the Federation is that all the glitz and hype makes you feel empty or encourages you to do drugs. Roden and the Black Eagles haven't done just about anything that qualifies as even mildly naughty, while CCP has continued to paint the Caldari as space nazis and the Amarr as child-molesting religious fundies. So, no, I don't think that it's a fair playing field when it comes to RP - the State sure isn't the same faction that existed when I joined Eve. And the only answer I got from a CCP dev about it was basically "screw you, leave the State as a dissenter then".
As for FW, the Gal-Cal warzone was dropping back and forth right up until CCP implemented one of the fastest patches they have ever run through, timed to coincide with Gallente control of the vast majority of the warzone, and they did so after consulting only Gallente FW players. The one Caldari player they claimed to have contacted denies being consulted.
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I have never participated in FW.
But Tony G's writing did have a tendency to portray the Gallente a bit better than the rest. Sure the Federation had flaws, but these were mostly concentrated around a few corrupt or incompetent people and if not for these, the Gallente could pretty much stomp whoever they wanted.
Tony G is gone, but as per the discussion here (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2378561#post2378561) for some strange reason somebody are still trying to promote this view with the blessing of CCP.
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The reason everything is horribly grimdark is very simple: people. Anywhere you have people, you have the effect of human nature.
We're vindictive, spiteful chimpanzees, only in modern day we've invented guns, and in Eve we have spaceships with guns. At the core is still accursed humanity, no matter how many gadgets we wrap ourselves in.
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The reason everything is horribly grimdark is very simple: people. Anywhere you have people, you have the effect of human nature.
We're vindictive, spiteful chimpanzees, only in modern day we've invented guns, and in Eve we have spaceships with guns. At the core is still accursed humanity, no matter how many gadgets we wrap ourselves in.
Except for in the Federation, which is a "utopia", according to TEA.
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1.) You edited your post after I replied.
At the time that I read his post, Lyn was the only one who had replied in the thread. His post looked the same as it does now.
I think so yes.
Though it seems to have been edited recently, but no idea what has changed.
2.) It honestly puzzles me how you could ever believe that the gallente were the true hoeroes, knights in white shining armor, rescuing damsels in distress (sic!).
Where have I said that?
You've intimated as much several times just around me. I mean, you're free to RP that, certainly, but don't deny it.
Don't deny it ?
I do not have the same experience at all. I have seen Seri (the character) either being the naive dreamer about the utopia federation he dreams of, or being the abrasive cynical renegade criticizing it heavily.
I do not see at all how it fits into what you are depicting of him.
...but in the end New Eden remains a particularly dystopian, dysfunctional and politically incorrect setting if you're a capsuleer by the standards of modern, western thinking. New Eden is a morally ambiguous place where the lines between right and wrong, good or evil can be blurred because everyone has their own perspectives and thoughts on what they are.
That's what makes it so fun.
There's been a distinct lack of negative characterization of the Federation compared to that leveled at the Amarr and Caldari. The worst TEA, TBL and so forth have leveled at the Federation is that all the glitz and hype makes you feel empty or encourages you to do drugs. Roden and the Black Eagles haven't done just about anything that qualifies as even mildly naughty, while CCP has continued to paint the Caldari as space nazis and the Amarr as child-molesting religious fundies. So, no, I don't think that it's a fair playing field when it comes to RP - the State sure isn't the same faction that existed when I joined Eve. And the only answer I got from a CCP dev about it was basically "screw you, leave the State as a dissenter then".
As for FW, the Gal-Cal warzone was dropping back and forth right up until CCP implemented one of the fastest patches they have ever run through, timed to coincide with Gallente control of the vast majority of the warzone, and they did so after consulting only Gallente FW players. The one Caldari player they claimed to have contacted denies being consulted.
I could enumerate a lot of gallente negative descriptions.
Except with TonyG ofc.
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Gesakaarin hit it right on the head. Roleplay is story development, and stories have their ups and downs. Being part of an underdog faction is just as interesting and enjoyable as being part of an ascendant one.
It's not a good idea to get emotionally invested in whether your faction "wins" a game when that very game is designed for an eternal back-and-forth between opposing factions. It's like hoping for the total victory of the Horde or the Alliance. Hint: As long as Blizzard has subs, it's not going to happen.
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Gesakaarin hit it right on the head. Roleplay is story development, and stories have their ups and downs. Being part of an underdog faction is just as interesting and enjoyable as being part of an ascendant one.
It's not a good idea to get emotionally invested in whether your faction "wins" a game when that very game is designed for an eternal back-and-forth between opposing factions. It's like hoping for the total victory of the Horde or the Alliance. Hint: As long as Blizzard has subs, it's not going to happen.
I'm not so much concerned with FW - it's going to go back and forth forever, and there's sort of a pride in being the underdog. OTOH, I can complain when I think someone was actively unfair, and about what I see as a process of making Eve into some sort of immature "good versus bad" contest. If I preferred Star Wars, I would buy Star Wars.
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I'm not so much concerned with FW - it's going to go back and forth forever, and there's sort of a pride in being the underdog. OTOH, I can complain when I think someone was actively unfair, and about what I see as a process of making Eve into some sort of immature "good versus bad" contest. If I preferred Star Wars, I would buy Star Wars.
The allegations of CCP unfairness in the implementation of the Fast Forward patch have been made largely by a vocal few on the forums, half of them mostly inactive in the gameworld. Suggesting that members of the Gallente militia were "consulted" about it is misleading, given how CCP has been soliciting feedback on FW for months. No militia knew in advance about the Fast Forward Patch. Indeed, when the patch notes came out, most of us in GalMil thought that it was handing a win to the Caldari.
After all, flipping a system takes all of ten to fifteen minutes. It wouldn't have taken much to get a dominant position with so many systems so deeply vulnerable.
As for the world-shaping issues, the missteps of TonyG have been often spoken of on these forums. Suffice to say, there is plenty of lore in the game and in the wiki that pushes the Federation into the gray area. The COSMOS missions and the Caldari POW item text are two of many examples of this.
More recently, Roden and the Black Eagles have done things much more questionable than "mildly naughty." As a black ops unit operating behind a democracy, much of the news and articles about them are of a more subtle bent. Figuring out the scarey stuff that they're up to requires reading between the lines. And thank goodness for that; it's a sign that there's still at least some writing in the PF that can draw on subtlety.
The present argument of CCP's bias relies on observational fallacies. The foremost is the treatment of a complex organization with multiple individual actors and departments, each with their own agena, as a monolithic conspiratorial entity.
CCP has a new live events team that reacts quickly to player initiatives. CCP also has a balance dev that stays on top of events in the PvP world. The fallacy is in linking the swift response of the new live events team along with Fozzie's immediate tweet as indicators of a monolithic CCP effort to see Gallente prevail. I'm sure there are other details plucked out of the messy universe to support the woven narrative, such as TonyG's books written independently months ago.
And relying on such narratives is more comforting to forum warriors who, in the absence of such, would have to admit their shortcomings in the virtual battlefields of internet spaceships.
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The game gets changed the same for everyone. Of course, superficially at least, pre-patch there was a stalemate and post-patch there was a curbstomp.
Still, a large part of the curbstomp could easily have been caused by half the CalMil ragequitting, so... Was there bias or was there simply perceived bias leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy? I don't know - all I know is that FW is not the game of Eve and whilst it would be nice not to have been curbstomped, I still lose more of my poor little Condors to pirates that come into the Warzone for easy tears than at the hands of the FDU.
In any event. Piet is Caldari and the current state of the Warzone doesn't really make being Caldari any more difficult than it was last month.
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The allegations of CCP unfairness in the implementation of the Fast Forward patch have been made largely by a vocal few on the forums, half of them mostly inactive in the gameworld. Suggesting that members of the Gallente militia were "consulted" about it is misleading, given how CCP has been soliciting feedback on FW for months. No militia knew in advance about the Fast Forward Patch. Indeed, when the patch notes came out, most of us in GalMil thought that it was handing a win to the Caldari.
After all, flipping a system takes all of ten to fifteen minutes. It wouldn't have taken much to get a dominant position with so many systems so deeply vulnerable.
It's a fallacy to suggest that, because some who have complained are inactive, that the entire complaint thus rendered invalid. It also does not follow that because some of the loudest complainers are forum warriors, that it is not widespread among the less vocal. In my experience, much of the discouragement among the Caldari FWers stems from the patch, which would have been more fairly accompanied by a reset of the warzone, rather than what did occur. At the very least, more warning should have been given. The farming of LP was not inflicting such dire damage on prices that it justified a patch with such ramifications being implemented so quickly.
And, yes, certain people were listed as being consulted about the patch, only one of whom was a Caldari FWer. Moreover, Hans, the CSM who CCP consulted regarding FW, plays on the Gallente/Minmatar side. All possibly innocent, yes, but it certainly looks bad from the side that got screwed.
As to the flipping, I can't really credit it as an argument. We all know that defending is easier than offense, and Gallente players immediately went out to decontest every system at least a little bit. The Caldari did attempt to form bunker busting fleets, however, as most also know, such attempts are affected both by local conditions and by forewarning. Everyone knew that the Caldari were suddenly faced with the unprecedented situation of having to take every system as soon as possible, and thus forewarned, were able to take every precaution to prevent it. And since the Gallente could easily render any particular system unfit for flipping by taking even one or two plexes - and then possibly keeping them open so that no more could spawn - the Caldari had no chance whatsoever to effect a mass flipping of systems. And they didn't. That they had been capable of such when the Gallente were not able to focus their efforts on a distinct slice of time and space is quite obvious: they'd already done it before.
As for the world-shaping issues, the missteps of TonyG have been often spoken of on these forums. Suffice to say, there is plenty of lore in the game and in the wiki that pushes the Federation into the gray area. The COSMOS missions and the Caldari POW item text are two of many examples of this.
Actually, you just managed to quote the majority of lore that paints the Federation badly, although I presume you refer to the Federation epic arc. On the other hand, I can give you almost exact mirrors of those things on the Caldari/Amarr side, and then fill pages with more. The State and Empire have been increasingly painted in a completely dark tone, while the Federation suffers only the mildest splotches of gray. It is perfectly possible to think of many ways in which it could be portrayed more realistically, but such has not been done. And, while I won't say they can't or shouldn't RP as such, many Federation players are perfectly willing to RP their nation as the perfect utopia that TonyG called it - and the rest of us don't have a terrible lot to oppose that vision with.
More recently, Roden and the Black Eagles have done things much more questionable than "mildly naughty." As a black ops unit operating behind a democracy, much of the news and articles about them are of a more subtle bent. Figuring out the scarey stuff that they're up to requires reading between the lines. And thank goodness for that; it's a sign that there's still at least some writing in the PF that can draw on subtlety.
Ah, the Black Eagles. Well, aside from possibly removing a school teacher, there hasn't been all that much that they have done. Perhaps they are just very lazy. But, in regards to subtlety, I'd note that if the Federation is getting ambiguous hints here and there, it would be necessary to say that the Empire and State have been loaded up with a good deal of very unambiguous, very unattractive qualities. And, on top of that, have been gifted with the ambiguities as well. Now, forgive me, but how are Amarr players to feel when their former ruler is revealed to be a child-loesting blood raider and their current one to be, if I may be blunt, a psychic zombie princess? I won't bother going into Heth, the Broker, or the sudden change of the State from hyper-competent CEOs and diligent employees to incompetent fools and starving serfs.
The present argument of CCP's bias relies on observational fallacies. The foremost is the treatment of a complex organization with multiple individual actors and departments, each with their own agena, as a monolithic conspiratorial entity.
CCP has a new live events team that reacts quickly to player initiatives. CCP also has a balance dev that stays on top of events in the PvP world. The fallacy is in linking the swift response of the new live events team along with Fozzie's immediate tweet as indicators of a monolithic CCP effort to see Gallente prevail. I'm sure there are other details plucked out of the messy universe to support the woven narrative, such as TonyG's books written independently months ago.
The discrepancy comes when you consider how little attention CCP paid to a fairly momentous accomplishment, and then the instant attention shown when the other side accomplishes same. Yes, there are reasons for that, but it also seems a little odd that the Caldari were rewarded for their victory by having the Megacorps overreach, Heth (who we, almost to a man, loathe) become stronger, and the Gallente get a better, more war-savvy president. Gee, thanks.
The Gallente, on the other hand, get an immediate forum post for holding all systems less than a day, will probably get a medal (I don't begrudge them that), and CCP is hinting that they'll get Caldari Prime back. Oh, and Heth has already had an assassination attempt (yay?), the megas are in financial trouble thanks to losing the Gallente systems, and on and on. The rewards, let us say, have not been similar or commensurate.
And relying on such narratives is more comforting to forum warriors who, in the absence of such, would have to admit their shortcomings in the virtual battlefields of internet spaceships.
Well, this is a bit of an ad hominem, but I think I'll content myself with the knowledge that I can both post and PvP, and that I was buzzing around your station quite a bit today while you were docked up.
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As for FW, the Gal-Cal warzone was dropping back and forth right up until CCP implemented one of the fastest patches they have ever run through, timed to coincide with Gallente control of the vast majority of the warzone, and they did so after consulting only Gallente FW players. The one Caldari player they claimed to have contacted denies being consulted.
You don't know that for sure, and you don't get to post your opinion as if it were fact. FW got it's patches and fixes regardless of who had what systems, and CCP has demonstrated that they don't care who holds what, it's up to the players to deal with their faction's dominance or lack thereof. I honestly don't think you would have complained at all if the Caldari came out ahead.
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Actually, you just managed to quote the majority of lore that paints the Federation badly, although I presume you refer to the Federation epic arc. On the other hand, I can give you almost exact mirrors of those things on the Caldari/Amarr side, and then fill pages with more. The State and Empire have been increasingly painted in a completely dark tone, while the Federation suffers only the mildest splotches of gray. It is perfectly possible to think of many ways in which it could be portrayed more realistically, but such has not been done. And, while I won't say they can't or shouldn't RP as such, many Federation players are perfectly willing to RP their nation as the perfect utopia that TonyG called it - and the rest of us don't have a terrible lot to oppose that vision with.
The only thing that makes you think that is due to a lack of cultural relativism, imho. You think like a westerner.
So yes, the Federation is probably the less "evil" in westerner terms. What's so new about that ? Who cares in the world of New Eden ?
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It's a fallacy to suggest that, because some who have complained are inactive, that the entire complaint thus rendered invalid. It also does not follow that because some of the loudest complainers are forum warriors, that it is not widespread among the less vocal.
No, it's not a fallacy to suggest that people who spend more time complaining in the forums than fighting a war in game know less about the war in the game. You cannot automatically attribute the opinions of the vocal to the opinions of the silent. The 'silent majority' argument requires substantiation.
And the numbers point to increased FW participation and pew pew overall.
In my experience, much of the discouragement among the Caldari FWers stems from the patch, which would have been more fairly accompanied by a reset of the warzone, rather than what did occur. At the very least, more warning should have been given. The farming of LP was not inflicting such dire damage on prices that it justified a patch with such ramifications being implemented so quickly.
A 'reset' of the warzone would eliminate all actions done by players for the sake of creating an instanced, level battlefield. In other words, it would betray why EVE is a sandbox. The Fast Forward Patch had the potential to screw over all militias equally. The issue was how each militia handled the situation.
And are you really casting CCP in a bad light for actually implementing a patch quickly? Talk about perverse incentives.
And, yes, certain people were listed as being consulted about the patch, only one of whom was a Caldari FWer. Moreover, Hans, the CSM who CCP consulted regarding FW, plays on the Gallente/Minmatar side. All possibly innocent, yes, but it certainly looks bad from the side that got screwed.
Because heaven forbid that the people who help design game mechanics actually play the game. This has been a primary complaint of EVE players for years - that the devs don't actually play the game. The CSM was designed with the express purpose of having player-elected players, who know the game in and out, advising the development process.
As to the flipping, I can't really credit it as an argument.
Glad to know arguments are only arguments when you credit them as such.
We all know that defending is easier than offense, and Gallente players immediately went out to decontest every system at least a little bit. The Caldari did attempt to form bunker busting fleets, however, as most also know, such attempts are affected both by local conditions and by forewarning.
Phrases like "we all know" is a pretty cheap rhetorical trick to disguise bland assertion for common wisdom. The arguments for what the Caldari could have done in light of the Fast Forward Patch are many. Blaming 'local conditions' is a superb way of avoiding the fact that your favored militia was split by civil wars, ongoing wardecs, and divisive and abrasive personalities.
As for forewarning, it affected both sides equally.
And since the Gallente could easily render any particular system unfit for flipping by taking even one or two plexes - and then possibly keeping them open so that no more could spawn - the Caldari had no chance whatsoever to effect a mass flipping of systems.
This right here shows how much 'information' you've gotten from bitter second-hand sources. You weren't actually there. It took more than 'one or two' flips to pull a system out of vulnerable. It took dozens of plexes since all systems were deeply vulnerable and capped at 133% vulnerable post Fast Forward. Read the patch notes.
Half the warzone was still vulnerable a full week after the patch. Entire days went by when the Caldari made no effort to flip a single system. There's only so much you can blame 'local conditions' for such crass inaction.
Actually, you just managed to quote the majority of lore that paints the Federation badly, although I presume you refer to the Federation epic arc. On the other hand, I can give you almost exact mirrors of those things on the Caldari/Amarr side, and then fill pages with more. The State and Empire have been increasingly painted in a completely dark tone, while the Federation suffers only the mildest splotches of gray. It is perfectly possible to think of many ways in which it could be portrayed more realistically, but such has not been done. And, while I won't say they can't or shouldn't RP as such, many Federation players are perfectly willing to RP their nation as the perfect utopia that TonyG called it - and the rest of us don't have a terrible lot to oppose that vision with.
First of all, your assertions about Federal roleplay are fairly baseless. Federation partisans will of course hype on the benefits of democratic progressivism in the forums - as the Amarrian partisans talk about God, virtue, patience, morality and stability. It's natural that activists posting on behalf of their faction will polish the 'attractive' parts while downplaying the negatives.
There is no death in Nation, after all.
To suggest that those same players aren't cognizant of what their characters are up to, or of the darker side of their own factions, is insulting them.
Vague statements about darkness and splotches of gray are rather qualitative judgements.
I'll get to my second point after the next post.
Ah, the Black Eagles. Well, aside from possibly removing a school teacher, there hasn't been all that much that they have done. Perhaps they are just very lazy. But, in regards to subtlety, I'd note that if the Federation is getting ambiguous hints here and there, it would be necessary to say that the Empire and State have been loaded up with a good deal of very unambiguous, very unattractive qualities. And, on top of that, have been gifted with the ambiguities as well. Now, forgive me, but how are Amarr players to feel when their former ruler is revealed to be a child-loesting blood raider and their current one to be, if I may be blunt, a psychic zombie princess? I won't bother going into Heth, the Broker, or the sudden change of the State from hyper-competent CEOs and diligent employees to incompetent fools and starving serfs.
The Black Eagles have also embraced the memory and brain-scanning trade, leaning on criminal elements preying on poorer individuals for memory scans at the risk of permanent brain damage. This is one of many cyberpunk moves as part of an unprecedented surveillance campaign within the Federation, taking advantage of the blurring boundaries between bio-organic and digital memory. It's all very Ghost in the Shell, with all the dystopian overtures of those themes.
Really, Vikarion, there's more to evil than dragging people off at night. Lots of us appreciate finer distinctions, subtlety, and cloak and shadows in our fiction.
This brings me to my second point. Depicting one faction as 'more evil' than another is not a sign of 'favoritism' in an online mmo. People enjoy playing darker, more morally ambiguous or outright villainous characters both in general gameplay and in RP. Having one side be 'lighter' in an mmo universe famed for its dark and gritty atmosphere is not necessarily a point in that side's favor.
People in EVE like playing scammers, griefers, pirates, and criminals. And this translates into roleplay as well. Saying that grimdark elements in a faction's lore suggests CCP is biased against that faction and is trying to dissuade people from playing that faction is utter rubbish.
The discrepancy comes when you consider how little attention CCP paid to a fairly momentous accomplishment, and then the instant attention shown when the other side accomplishes same.
Again, you're talking about CCP as a monolithic conspiratorial entity, ignoring the fact that it is a fairly large corporation with numerous writers and, furthermore, generational differences between the present personnel and those personnel that existed in the past. The people that handled the situation when the Caldari won control of the full war zone are different from the people that handled the situation when Gallente won control of the full war zone.
CCP was more efficient now than it was in the past. Yay?
Yes, there are reasons for that, but it also seems a little odd that the Caldari were rewarded for their victory by having the Megacorps overreach, Heth (who we, almost to a man, loathe) become stronger, and the Gallente get a better, more war-savvy president. Gee, thanks. The Gallente, on the other hand, get an immediate forum post for holding all systems less than a day, will probably get a medal (I don't begrudge them that), and CCP is hinting that they'll get Caldari Prime back. Oh, and Heth has already had an assassination attempt (yay?), the megas are in financial trouble thanks to losing the Gallente systems, and on and on. The rewards, let us say, have not been similar or commensurate.
The Federation lost a popular, progressive president. They also suffered a controversial election where a significant population was denied suffrage, one which only highlighted the grievances of the Intaki member state and provided much impetus for independence roleplay. The ramifications for the Federation loss were significant.
Also, you're looking at lore and news items in terms of 'rewards.' The CCP group writing live events and news articles is in charge of telling an interesting story, that is all.
Well, this is a bit of an ad hominem, but I think I'll content myself with the knowledge that I can both post and PvP, and that I was buzzing around your station quite a bit today while you were docked up.
It's only ad hominem if you think that comment directed at you personally. It was, of course, directed at the vocal forum warriors I referenced in the first paragraph of my post.
Also, Vikarion, it's in poor taste to piggyback on the accomplishments of others.
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This is why all of you should immediately submit to your proper, civilized Minmatar betters. It is for the best.
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All I'm takin' away from this argument pile is "daaaaamn youuuu TonyG!"
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Half the warzone was still vulnerable a full week after the patch. Entire days went by when the Caldari made no effort to flip a single system. There's only so much you can blame 'local conditions' for such crass inaction.
It's not true. Surprise patch came 10.23, cap patch came 10.24. 10.25 all systems were out of vulnerable, with 15 having been taken in the two to three days. I know this because I can read the patchnotes and compare it with timestamps on forum posts.
Countering pos bash fleets (pirates did that, too) had a lot to do with 'only' 15 systems, but without the cap more systems would've changed hands. NPC contestion made offensive plexing much slower than defensive plexing as well. It took me, for example, significantly longer ( about 33-50% ) to cap minors in a long-range destroyer, simply because the spawns appear out of range of the button most of the time. The bigger the plex, the bigger the issue obviously.
CCP bias/conspiracy is a ludicrous argument, but discarding the impact of all of these changes as minor isn't really objective either.
edit: as far as the RP goes:
Gesakaarin described it well, and Lyn's point about us judging it from our (mostly? western) set of morals hits home, too. When I think about the 'dark side' of the federation there are plenty of angles. A public execution in a very brutal manner isn't something I'd be okay with IRL, especially not with the crowd being the executioner. A rather perverse example of direct democracy.
Democracy itself can be criticized thoroughly - most of us live in one and I guess everyone just loves lobbyism, to name just one aspect - although that would warrant an own thread.
Therefore I see no problems with PF/IC arguments to arm characters that are not (Minmatar)/Gallente when it comes to defending their own society.
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Half the warzone was still vulnerable a full week after the patch. Entire days went by when the Caldari made no effort to flip a single system. There's only so much you can blame 'local conditions' for such crass inaction.
It's not true. Surprise patch came 10.23, cap patch came 10.24. 10.25 all systems were out of vulnerable, with 15 having been taken in the two to three days. I know this because I can read the patchnotes and compare it with timestamps on forum posts.
Countering pos bash fleets (pirates did that, too) had a lot to do with 'only' 15 systems, but without the cap more systems would've changed hands. NPC contestion made offensive plexing much slower than defensive plexing as well. It took me, for example, significantly longer ( about 33-50% ) to cap minors in a long-range destroyer, simply because the spawns appear out of range of the button most of the time. The bigger the plex, the bigger the issue obviously.
Forum posts don't accurately account for the state of the warzone, which should be fairly obvious from the bias in the W&T posters. If I knew this was going to be a big issue down the road, I would've taken screenshots of the FW UI in the days following Fast Forward.
It was not the case that 'all systems were out of vulnerable' three days after the patch. And indeed, there were full days with lots of vulnerable systems where nothing was flipped at all.
Edit Addendum: Found data from Dotlan Maps
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/factionwarfare/2012-10-23
10-22 is when the Patch Came Out
System Flips
10-22: Innia, Aivonen, Hallanen, Sujarento, Hasama, Manjonakko
10-23: Notoras, Asakai, Prism, Uuna, Ishomilken, Nikkishina, Fliet, Agoze, Kinakka, Frarie, Vey, Eugales,
10-24: Harroule
10-25: Annancale, Pynekastoh
10-26: Villasen, Reitsato
10-27: None
10-28: None
10-29: Vaaralen
Vaaralen was still vulnerable a full week after the patch, among other systems. Two full days passed after Reitsato where nothing was flipped.
What you may be referring to is how we started getting systems out of vulnerable about 2-3 days after the patch. A fair number were secured but, as the continued system flips show, not all of them by a long shot.
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This is why all of you should immediately submit to your proper, civilized Amarr betters. It is for the best.
Fixed that for you :twisted:
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You know?
vOv
It wasn't W&T, else I'd have linked the posts in question. It's a combination of my memories getting jumpstarted through help of a talk I had at that point and an attempt at an objective analysis from my side why the situation was seen as an uphill struggle at that point.
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Perhaps at this point we ought to concede to Shaalira that the FDU member organisations were better organised and coordinated and that, ironically, the Caldari Militia actually has very little top-level command or focus.
Once that's done, maybe she can admit that the timing of the massive surge in the warzone seems to suggest that either the changes in those patches or the reaction to the changes in those patches had a very significant part in what came next.
In any case. Nobody's seriously butthurt over it. Caldari pilots are still in the warzone. We're still trying to take systems and we'll be trying to defend those systems. We'll still be trying to get fair fights and avoid being outnumbered and outgunned. But, for the love of all that's holy, can we try to discuss PF Canon and FW Mechanics seperately. They have nothing to do with one another.
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Oh, without question!
That's what I was tryingto say, hopefully without sounding hostile. I'm not trying to belittle achievements here nor am I bitter about 'losing'. I do think that the whole CCP loves gallente thing is pretty stupid. But I think that there was more to the situation than just saying 'CalMil is incapable, we aren't', which is why I've posted my two cents.
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I apologize if my tone has been a bit harsh. My focus was debunking the idea that CCP was biased towards a certain faction and thus orchestrated that faction's success in faction war. That narrative, I've found, has been used to either marginalize the very real efforts of hundreds of players, or to cover for its proponents' shortcomings.
My point in showing what could have happened was not that CalMil is incapable. Rather, it's to suggest that player actions and responses to the patch were as determinative as to the result as the mechanics themselves. Anyone who saw the bitter and close-fought battles in Rakapas and elsewhere would know better than to belittle the wins and losses of the pilots on both sides, or to ascribe the outcome to CCP's devilish plotting.
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I think we're on the same page, then. :cube:
Back to discussing the dark sides of the federation? :s
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Let me state I am amazingly impressed with you guys for suddenly stopping the argument and hugging. Bravo. <3
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Look people, we need to start being irrational and throwing ad hominem attacks RIGHT NOW.
Youre playing with forces you cant understand. EVE as we know it might be destroyed by this!
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I came here for an argument! (http://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y)
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:cube:
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Look people, we need to start being irrational and throwing ad hominem attacks RIGHT NOW.
Youre playing with forces you cant understand. EVE as we know it might be destroyed by this!
Well why don't you just start by shutting up dude?! I mean, seriously, your way of playing EVE is just wrong!!! :bash:
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This is why all of you should immediately submit to your proper, civilized Amarr betters. It is for the best.
Fixed that for you ;)
EDIT: Seems Lae already did LOL!
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I still remember when the Caldari came to hold all the systems and the all the large FDU entities at the time left because it was all a CCP conspiracy against the Federation and people were decrying how unfair it all was and how broken the system was. At the time it did look like a lost cause, but then I came to the realization that FW really isn't about how many systems you have but blowing things up and having fun with your guys. The orginal Villore Accords was crafted with that vision in mind.
People seem to forget that SOTF/QCATS were once just a small group of pvp noobs a few years back who when given the options between spinning ships and complaining about FW or accepting things as they are and going out there to pew pew anyway, decided to go out there and blow things up, have fun and take things as they come. The current state of FW is solely because by and large, that spirit of camaraderie between people who have been its participants has not died and the fact that within the VA it was actively promoted not tie morale to what was perceived to be a broken capture system and instead decided to focus purely on pvp in an environment that promoted camaraderie, respect, corporate independence and a devil may care attitude to FW. The result is that core FDU organizations are now tied together by bonds of shared experience over years of low sec pvp and are able to maintain cohesion because by and large the same attitudes of stowing away the bullshit to get the job done are still held.
The lack of success by the STPRO is simply because they never had the same degree of core cohesion by groups who were committed to remain in the fight and do what needed to be done together as one. Instead of cohesion and camaraderie the history of the STPRO seems to be a long history of internecine conflicts, large groups taking their toys off to nullsec when the going gets rough, or RP'ers joining and then leaving when it gets hard, "Because of Tibus Heth." How does it end up a CCP conspiracy when the FDU were able to come together and unify in a moment of crisis and the STPRO were not? Hell, if certain STPRO organizations had remained in 2009 or had made a concerted effort to push VA corps out of Nennamaila when it was decided upon to be the major low-sec base then the FDU probably wouldn't be in the position it is now.
Eve RP to me isn't about sitting around with my hands down my pants doing ERP and writing about how I'm a super important internet spaceship captain seeking to break out my kneepads for some Dev fellatio so I can get some ISD news article mention so I can hold it over others in some cliquish popularity contest. I'd much rather prosecute my RP in space with my F1 key that FacWar offers than ever be beholden to the opinions or what people may think of what I construct or of the faction I play for.
People think Caldari are space nazis? Fine, I'll go put on the jackboots.
People hate Tibus Heth? Fine, I'll go RP a Provist.
People think Caldari are losing? Fine, I'll go ahead and seek to pvp Feds in FW.
This is because I believe that in RP form and function must merge, and to me the ability of FDU corporations to prosecute the work of their militia in space through pvp is the function that befits the form of being loyal soldiers to the Federation. As such, even though they may not participate in the RP "community" their continued ability to do so grants them the credit to the rewards of their actions conducted in space. By the same token, it means that if Caldari wish to win then they should seek to create the same sort of cohesion and vision necessary to be successful in FW and get on with the task at hand.
I don't understand the need to conjure up CCP bias or conspiracy as an excuse to explain why the FDU is able to accomplish what the STPRO can not currently. The simple fact is that you're either willing to do what needs to be done in space or you're not and the spoils of victory will always go to those who have the commitment and the guns because that's just the rules of the game. I certainly feel no need to make excuses. I play Caldari because I enjoy the faction - all aspects of it - and not because I can go all fanboi holding over how perfect it is for my own self-aggrandizement, just as I will remain in the STPRO because the chance to get to fight against some really top notch pvp corp/alliances that I respect for their competency and which satisfies my needs for a solid challenge when I log into Eve.
In the end you can either do what needs to get done in space or you can just spin ships and forum warrior about how lack of success is due to the fact CCP hates you. I'd much rather do the former than the latter.
Anyway, drunk rant over, I'm going to get another beer.
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That was drunk? I can't imagine a sober rant.
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Veik is our commissar and magnificent bastard.
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Please read this with the understanding that I intend it in a rather light tone. I've tried not to say anything that could be misunderstood, but I'm not perfect.
A few of the above posts are a misunderstanding of what the complaint is, at least what mine is. I consider it highly doubtful that CCP had some grand conspiracy to help the Gallente to win systems. Do I think they wanted the Gallente to win? Maybe. Do I think that the actual effects of the changes, whether or not CCP wanted them to win, made it look like they did? Yeah. Do I think that such a patch should have had more warning, or been accompanied by a reset? Yes. Do I think that the appearance of favoritism is a bad thing for the game? Yes.
I also think that CCP has been waiting for the Gallente to take all systems for some time now, because they have a storyline that demands it, and doesn't occur until it happens. This might quite possibly be wrong, but it would be far more in concordance with how other RP events (like the Bleak Lands) have been conducted, than otherwise.
And Caldari roleplayers have been complaining since TEA about the "new" portrayal of the Caldari. Quite simply, if one picks a faction for certain reasons, and then those reasons change, do you drop the faction or your preferences? Most of us, nearly all of us, really, really hate the Heth storyline. And the portrayal really hurts recruitment, too. Look at what a newbie is confronted with when they start Eve: you can play as the evil enslaving church militant empire and their nazi corporate allies, or the wonderful democracy of the Federation and their freedom fighter counterparts. Now, it's all very well to say that people should consider RPing non-western standards of morality, but most people aren't RPers, and this wasn't how Eve was originally set up, morality-wise. And this shift has created a feeling that the Amarr and Caldari merely exist as something to be opposed, a faction without inherent reality or content aside from the fact that they oppose the good side and embody evil.
I think that these are real issues. Now, I can argue all day about the patch, but that's not going to change. Nor would the other side agree with me in any case. I would be greatly surprised if any Gal FWer would speak out against a CCP proposal that Caldari would always be limited to 50% LP earnings. There would be proclamations that it was in our interest because it would keep prices high, or that it made up for all of our missioning farmers, or something else. That's just the way Eve is - you take everything you can for your "side", and to hell with the rest.
But I am going to keep complaining about the RP issues I have, and I'm going to do it as loud and long as I can. Because I like what the Caldari were more than I like what TonyG turned them into, and I don't like the idea of what I see as a "marysuetopia" in Eve any more than that. One might say that's a grudge. Well, I happily carry this one.
Now, I'm not sure what to make of the personal attacks, veiled and not. I can only play some of the time - I have a very full schedule most days. This is fine, I like my job. But I play when I can, and post when I can, and I can't be out in Black Rise and Placid eight hours every day. I'm sorry if some people think that that's "forum RP", or that only getting in two hours or so means that I have no stake in the game and no right to RP. I think that such a view is nonsensical - that is, it doesn't take into the account the circumstances of the vast majority of players - but that's also an opinion, my opinion.
But as for piggybacking on the accomplishments of, to quote Shaalira, others (or, if I recall correctly, "my betters" before the edit), I dove back into FW right before the Gallente took the last four systems or so. I have, when I've had time, been plexing, fighting, and shooting infrastructure hubs. I helped take the last few plexes of Okagaiken, and was there with all the other EVOKE and Liandri members shooting the hub. Liandri (and I as part of them) spent the rest of the day plexing up Villasen and other systems, and I helped take the infrastructure hub in Sarenemi. Then I spent the rest of the time I played (several hours) plexing other systems, alone and with others. In doing so, I've taken out quite a few opponents, and, as well, lost some ships. Now, I don't say that I, personally, am turning around the warzone. I don't even think it is turning around yet. But I think the falsehood of the accusation can be demonstrated, and I confess myself mildly annoyed at the casually uninformed way in which it was thrown out.
I also look somewhat askance on the idea that RP divorced from PvP is of no value - or, to put it in the words of CCP Falcon, "The days of supporting a faction with a few forum posts are over." Well, really? Are the stories written by someone of no value because she or he didn't "back them up in space"? Are we really going to say that someone who isn't in FW or building ships for it cannot be held as loyal to a faction? Well, *shrug* hey, if you want it that way, but it's going to leave an awful lot of people out in the cold.
Now, lastly, I don't think the distinction Gesakaarin makes is a true one. It is both possible to dislike how things are being conducted while still participating in the system. Or, in other words, I can both PvP and forum post. I can dislike the current portrayal of the State, and still RP a character who is loyal to that State. I can disagree with how CCP handles matters, and still blow up ships.
Oh, and one last thing.
Let Placid Burn. :)
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meh..
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Vikarion, my post wasn't aimed at you.
This one, is however.
The fact that TonyG was a hack as an author who probably couldn't give a horny pubescent teenager a hard-on when trying to write erotic fiction cannot be changed. The fact remains though that the Caldari State does have very strong elements of authoritarianism, fascism, totalitarianism, nationalism, capitalism and corporatism in its fabric. It's unavoidable that such a faction is going to be associated as, "Space Nazis" by the unwashed masses even when such elements are due to the particular worldviews of the Caldari as a society and their culture, history and traditions that has absolutely nothing to do with the ideology of Nationalist Socialism. This is because in the real world, Godwin will be invoked for any reason at all - just have a look at modern politics, I think if you look around almost every politician even in a democracy has been branded as a Nazi at one point or another.
The issue here isn't the factions themselves, but rather the players themselves who seem unable to divorce their real world morals and beliefs as part of what is mostly a modern, western and liberal mindset from the world of New Eden. It can't be helped if the Federation as the token democracy in the game will have the strongest parallels to the modern world and thus attract people who might project their values upon it and truly believe that liberal democracy is a shining beacon of truth, justice and good against the forces of evil. Does it really matter in the end if players or characters want to portray themselves as the, "Good Guys" in subscribing to the Federation? Because if being the, "Good" faction means having it adopt the strictures of a modern, western and liberal society then CCP might as well just bite the bullet and turn every faction into some form of secular, liberal democracy. That or maybe make Eve one big USA? We could have the Federation as the Blue states, the Amarr as the Red states, Caldari as the Wall St. bankers and the Minmatar can be everyone else living in the projects? Because that's what it would mean if all the factions were palatable for a modern audience, and if that were the case then CCP might as well go the whole nine yards and make it so that there aren't any pirate entities either, CONCORD is super effective and there aren't any capsuleers at all.
I don't think that would make for a very interesting setting but if people want to portray themselves as good guys and their faction as being pristine that can do no wrong while ignoring any evidence to the contrary then that's their choice. I've neither seen nor interacted with very few characters who are not in essence just reflections of the player with affectations and facades of being different, but who, when probed think and act just as could be expected from someone who was born and raised in a Western society. If the Federation is the closest it comes to the reality of the West in Eve, then it seems at times everyone is just being Gallente with different hats on honestly.
There's almost this deeply amusing aspect to that meta-game because in many respects the Federation has already won because if the majority of Eve players are born and raised in the West and are unable to divorce their own views in the game then the ideologies the Federation espouses are the most widely held by capsuleers. When I look at the Summit or the IGS it just reads like a group of Westerners arguing with other Westerners or against the few characters that don't prescribe to the same politically correct doctrines of modern thought. My own character has been labeled a, "troll" because I had the audacity to present opinions that I would say are fundamentally illiberal, undemocratic and Clausewitzian in nature but which I believe to be in line with Caldari philosophy as presented by CCP just as about every Amarr RP'er gets slapped in the face with Dawkins copypaste by people who bring their own baggage about religion through their characters.
The issue then to me isn't about as to whether or not there are identifiable good guys or bad guys in Eve, but rather people seeing the factions through the lense of their own Western morals and just playing themselves in a spaceship game. In the end they pay for their sub and if that's how they want to play it then that's their choice - their opinions will not affect my own playstyle or enjoyment of the game because they can be casually ignored. I will carry on regardless because if people want to play this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z56P8lT9nlE) in Eve, then I'd rather let them play in their corner of sandbox with like minded individuals.
Why should the personal opinions of the supposed majority who judge what occurs in Eve by their own Western standards affect my own enjoyment of seeking to construct a character with a mindset separate and distinct from my own with the depth and complexity they deserve?
As for RP and PvP? Yes, Eve is a PvP game at its core and everything else is ancillary or in support of it. And yes, I'd agree wholeheartedly with CCP Falcon, because whilst there's nothing wrong with RP'ing as an individual freelance capsuleer if you state you are a capsuleer loyal to a nation then you should be out there fighting for it and proving your RP convictions through actions as well as words.
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Here is one for the unwashed masses.
Concider that the only thing you know about EVE is that is a sci-fi game with focus on PvP combat.
- Caldari (http://community.eveonline.com/races/Caldari.asp): Caldari society is steeped in military tradition. As a people, its members had to fight a long and bloody war to gain their independence, and even had to surrender their home planet to their hated enemies, the Gallenteans. It was at this time that the corporations established themselves as the driving force behind creating and maintaining the new Caldari State. Even if the Caldari have not engaged in war for many decades, they still strive to be at the cutting edge of military technology and their vessels, weapons and fighting methods are inferior to none but the enigmatic Jovians.
- Gallente (http://community.eveonline.com/races/Gallente.asp): Descendants of Tau Ceti Frenchmen, the Gallenteans remain strong believers in free will and human rights, despite numerous setbacks in their long history.
While I can see the Gallente originally had a weak appealing factor and supported an improvement, I am very much against that this has come at the cost of the Caldari appealing factor.
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A lot of good posts, either Veik or Vikarion.
And Vikarion, I agree that's mostly how factions look now, but I also believe that the numbers have weirdly never really showed that trend (maybe until now).
The gallente have always had troubles to find new RPers and players in general because it's either considered as "gay" by the obligatory testosteroned internet or either considered as too vague by most RPers that are unable to find a clear cut portrayal of them (since it's a melting pot of everything).
The factions the most successful especially in the past amongst RPers were the Amarr and the Minmatar. Now it's more the Caldari, in my opinion. But Gallente ? Never really.
And yet it is the closest we have from westerner point of view. Why people do not want to choose them ? I guess it might be because they usually want to try something different from their real world. I also guess it reminds them too much of the things they despise IRL. How many OOC filled hateposts have we seen on how corrupt and bloated is the Federation ? How many people truly believing that the Minmatar are meritocrats, or that the Caldari are all about their romantized space honor and decency ? A lot of people project their dislikes of the RL world in the Federation and look for an escape through other factions where they take their good values that they really like ? Of course ignoring in the process all the other very gritty details of their new beloved idealized faction.
Just looking at the militias demographics, the Caldari have always had almost twice the numbers of the Gallente, and the Minmatar probably around 50% more than the Amarr.
Weirdly enough it quite fits to my eyes with the factor of "cool". The Amarr and Gallente are hardly called "cool" by the average player. The factions deemed "cool" are the Minmatar because of the Mad Max / punk factor associated with the rebel side. The factions deemed "cool" are also the Caldari because they are jackasses in their military uniforms and boots and are tough guys definitly fitting the military aspect of the game (And how many military people play the game ? A lot from my experience). Maybe there is a link, maybe not. I couldnt tell.
But the Amarr ? Religion and slavery. People always react negatively when at least one of these things are mentionned. Without religion and slavery the Amarr start to get slightly cool to the eyes of the average dude because they are a fucking huge Empire with golden fleets of glory.
The Gallente ? Probably the worst. People think "gay", "corrupt", "bloated", "weak", "idealistic morons". Their ideals are almost girlish.
^Please note that I am exagerating the trait on purpose on how the masses can percieve the factions. It does not reflect my own perception at all.
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I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?
Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia. For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.
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I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?
Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia. For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.
Because the thread was specifically about the perception of CCP bias against whichever faction was losing the FW fight. Sadly, the pirate factions are not yet included in FW.
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But as for piggybacking on the accomplishments of, to quote Shaalira, others (or, if I recall correctly, "my betters" before the edit), I dove back into FW right before the Gallente took the last four systems or so. I have, when I've had time, been plexing, fighting, and shooting infrastructure hubs. I helped take the last few plexes of Okagaiken, and was there with all the other EVOKE and Liandri members shooting the hub. Liandri (and I as part of them) spent the rest of the day plexing up Villasen and other systems, and I helped take the infrastructure hub in Sarenemi. Then I spent the rest of the time I played (several hours) plexing other systems, alone and with others. In doing so, I've taken out quite a few opponents, and, as well, lost some ships. Now, I don't say that I, personally, am turning around the warzone. I don't even think it is turning around yet. But I think the falsehood of the accusation can be demonstrated, and I confess myself mildly annoyed at the casually uninformed way in which it was thrown out.
Why so defensive, Vikarion?
I said it was in bad form to piggyback off the accomplishments of others. This was in response to your previous post how you were buzzing outside a non-FW station I was in while I was docked up, implying that was entirely you.
Ignoring how I was the only GalMil in system and there were 20 Caldari Militia in and about the station.
I thought it was a rather strange incident to bring up to prove that you 'PvP.' Hence, the snarky comment.
I notice you take quite a few adverse comments as personal slights to your EVE playstyle, based on your reactions to posts from me, CCP Falcon, or Gesakaarin.
This isn't all about you. Really.
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If we tied our RP to the relative performances and PF actions of our factions we all would have rage quit years ago. None have been spared the 'WTF' PF moments, the facepalms for great justice.
Tying your RP to the performance of the FW system and its game mechanics is also asking to be depressed.
On that note, I can guarantee when and if the Caldari retake the entire theater there will be just as much response from the IC faction contacts and associated IGS posts.
So get to shootin' and recruitin'
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Right, there's nothing I can immediately address after 4 pages of this thread exploding.
1) As usual, Gesakaarin hits it on the head regarding the "Westerner problem" with EVE RP. I find it really rich people have accused Gesa's character of being a "troll" too, yeesh.
2) Building on Shaalira's points, the problem it appears is not CCP's portrayal, but how the players read it. If a reader cannot interpret subtlety, extract inferences, identify ambiguities (even when they're all implied), then that's the reader's problem. The new articles have a lot of that on all sides, especially the Fed ones I've noticed. Some of it borders too much on commentary for my liking, but sometimes obvious declaration of "facts" is needed to scale to the interpretative ability of the reader.
I agree the Federation has been portrayed way too much as "good guys" in TonyG's fiction...but that's just one writer. There are other writers.
Also, back at Laerise; what Lyn said. Seriphyn IC deviates between passionate idealist and jaded renegade. OOC I don't think I've ever claimed the Federation to be the good guys of EVE. The people, at least, will try, but those in power will have their own plans.
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Just want to add something quick here regarding the state of the empires and all that.
In a conversation with Falcon the other day, he noted that a lot of "wrongs will be righted" with regards to the storyline now that the events and storyline teams are working together. Be patient, and see what happens.
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Why so defensive, Vikarion?
I said it was in bad form to piggyback off the accomplishments of others. This was in response to your previous post how you were buzzing outside a non-FW station I was in while I was docked up, implying that was entirely you.
Ignoring how I was the only GalMil in system and there were 20 Caldari Militia in and about the station.
I thought it was a rather strange incident to bring up to prove that you 'PvP.' Hence, the snarky comment.
I notice you take quite a few adverse comments as personal slights to your EVE playstyle, based on your reactions to posts from me, CCP Falcon, or Gesakaarin.
This isn't all about you. Really.
Why so serious, eh? Well, I'm not too serious about all this, really. Trust me, in every Eve interaction, there's always the little notice light going off that says "remember, this isn't real life". In actuality, I'm more likely to cross boundaries in Eve because I start assuming none of it really matters, than I am to because I start assuming it really does matter.
That said, guess what? :P This is an Eve forum! :D And I have interest in the game! :twisted: So I post! 8)
And here I have what seems like a contradiction: I really love being serious about my non-serious interests. That is to say, I can be very passionate about the Caldari State as an RPer while I'm wearing my "playing Eve" hat. I can really want to flip that system, really want a good storyline, really want to get on a killmail. So I can't say I'm really sorry for defending my in game history or accomplishments, even if they are ultimately pretty worthless.
But it seems to me sort of like this. You claim I'm riding on the accomplishments of others -> I spend two paragraphs of a very long post refuting it with what I actually did -> you claim I'm being defensive. Well, that's not precisely a fair response, is it? I don't mind people claiming I haven't done anything if I haven't, but to claim such, get a response, and then attack my giving the response...I don't think that's reasonable.
Now, we disagree in this thread. I don't expect us to agree. But it was a Gallente RPer who started the thread, and I responded to it. When posters after that start talking about forum warriors and so forth, it seems at least somewhat plausible that I might be included in the aforementioned category. And when CCP Falcon directly quotes my post, and asks where I've been during live events, as well as stating that only posting on the forums is no longer enough, it's probably fair for me to be slightly piqued. Perhaps that seems overly sensitive, but I'm generally of the opinion that writing a response is fun, and you look worse for failing to answer a question directed at you than you do by mistakenly answering one you weren't asked.
And, I didn't mean to intimate that I was alone when buzzing around outside your station, and I don't think I did. I was in a fleet, and we were bouncing back and forth between systems fighting and plexing, so the precise word picture I had in my mind was of bees or something busily zipping about. I didn't fault you for staying docked, either - I was pointing out that you've had ample opportunity to notice me in the warzone, so I felt that you had reason to know that your statements about my involvement were incorrect.
Lastly, as to being all about me? No, I agree, it isn't. But I can only approach this argument from my own point of opinion. After all, who makes a practice of going around trying to guess what everyone else wants and then advocating for that? I'm merely one player, with four accounts, and a loud mouth...er, keyboard. And I know what I want, what I like, and what I dislike - at least, I'm pretty sure I do. Providing an area for such expression is precisely what a forum is purposed for.
So I think that the criticism of "it's not all about you", or, "you aren't the only person this involves" is somewhat of a waste of time when it is delivered regarding forum posts. Presumably, since I am not a special snowflake, there are others who think as I do, or close enough. Presumably, too, I have the same right as any to seek to have my vision for Eve expressed. Therefore, talking about it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
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This is a response to Gesakaarin's post, which I must admit I was somewhat hoping to, eh, provoke, although not in the pejorative sense. There are a few issues on which I must disagree with you, and so, to them.
First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society - if you desired, you could dissent all you wanted, but good luck getting a job if you made yourself more annoying to whatever Mega you served in than it considered you to be worth. This is why I don't think the Caldari even have a concept of a rights-based morality as the Gallente do - it's not whether you have the right to speak freely, you can say anything you want - the question is of the social and economic consequences of a statement or action.
There's no question that CCP has since moved the State towards totalitarianism. And the State was certainly always authoritarian. But originally, the State didn't seem to care if you grumbled in your beer with another employee about your nasty manager, as long as you worked hard and didn't make a fuss unnecessarily.
But I do think that the association with Nazism is more than coincidental or natural. TonyG, whether with the company or not, whether the author of most PF or not, did write the defining book on the current leadership and society of the State. It's very obvious that Heth is a Hitler clone, from the fomenting fake unrest to provide reasons for invasion to the persecution of ethnic immigrants. This from the same nation that, earlier, used its own navy to violently destroy a racist attack on Intaki immigrants. It wasn't that Heth fit previous PF, Heth didn't fit a lot of previous PF, but that PF was ignored or twisted so that we could be saddled with the character for the next five years or so. And, to date, you are one of the very few Caldari RPers I've met who is even willing to associate their character with the leader of the State. Many, perhaps even most, Caldari RPers were very disgruntled by the change. I remember quite a few who read TEA, muttered an obscenity, and essentially quit RPing.
Now, I both agree and disagree about subtlety in the fiction. Yes, to a certain extent, a writer has to rely on her readers to understand what's going on in any particular piece. On the other hand, if most of your readers are drawing the wrong conclusion, it's not appropriate to say "Hey! That's not what I meant! How come you didn't cross-link to my other article, use that to direct you to the in-depth history of the third aforementioned faction, and then use the secret decoder ring mentioned in the history to decode the fourth paragraph of the first article which reveals that the good guy is actually a villain??!?"
I use hyperbole, but a good writer knows that if your audience isn't getting the picture, it's far more likely to be the fault of the writer than of the audience. And it's not exactly like CCP is starved for material. Our current democracies, even our best ones, have many dark facets and evil bits to explore. But, in Eve, for the most part they haven't been. They could have been, but the closest we've come in most of the PF is probably in The Burning Life, where one of the main characters manages to get into a drug problem.
When I criticize CCP for how they have handled the portrayal of the Federation, it's primarily based on the above criticism. It's not that I think they need to make every other faction into a democratic, rights-based society. It's that I think the Federation is unrealistic as pictured - and I don't think that "subtlety!" is a good answer. Many of the problems of our modern democracies aren't subtle at all. How would the Federation handle a population which doesn't want to be educated? What about the balance of social services vs economic freedoms? Are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in the Fed? What's the crime situation like? How do they handle ethnic or religious immigrant conclaves that turn out radicalized or insular citizens? Are those isolated groups isolated because of radical beliefs, or because they are treated badly? Do they suffer from home-grown terrorism? Do they have religious groups trying to use democratically created laws to enforce religious customs? And so on. All of these things could be very realistic and thought-provoking problems, but we don't get them, because the Federation is a "utopia", and almost all problems come from the outside.
To your point about western players, I think that Vikarion has not been Gallentean in mindset. It has definitely annoyed other characters when Vikarion makes statements like "if I have to kill every Federation citizen to protect the State, I will". But Vikarion doesn't even get why such a statement is even controversial, because to him, loyalty to his corporation and nation is a given. I say this to try to illustrate that I understand your point about players, to a certain extent. On the other hand, you can only go so far in creating a fictional culture before the majority of people start having trouble relating to it.
At any rate, it's been enjoyable, and I do agree with many of your points. Fly safe.
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:Vikarion's reply on Gesakaarin's post:
I agree with all of this.
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I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?
Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia. For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.
Because the thread was specifically about the perception of CCP bias against whichever faction was losing the FW fight. Sadly, the pirate factions are not yet included in FW.
sadly :(
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First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society
I dunno, some of the older material made it pretty clear that citizens were inundated with corporate propaganda and that the only ones who had a good idea of what was actually going on were the few who had been transferred between megas, and that they were typically pretty jaded about things. I have always gotten the impression that the people in charge were very much involved in shaping every aspect of their employees lives, and that they were the ones who decided what the greater good was and how it should be pursued.
Hell, the megas grew people, they obviously have a hand in deciding how people ought to be. And wasn't Cold Wind published by a mega?
I've always had the impression that the megas have local monopolies (or nearly so) within their respective territories, and recent information confirms that the megas tend to pay in corporate scrip that is nearly worthless to other corps, and that they tend to hold large shares of new corps, even controlling shares. Starting up a new operation doesn't get you out from under their thumbs, it just makes you yet another head of the hydra.
There are obviously some differences. Pre-Heth, the State lacks a charismatic or prophetic leader. The committee in power is made up of the the boards of the megas, not a national council or other advisors and public leaders. The State has some tendencies towards oligarchy no matter how you slice it, I think, while the Fed has some very real problems with plutocracy.
I think they obviously overplayed Heth's hand by making him Hitler copypasta, but the idea of a totalitarian dictator rising to power on a populist wave and providing needed reform is kinda interesting to me. If only TonyG could have refrained from having him personally gun down Gallenteans, bleh.
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I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?
Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia. For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.
Because the thread was specifically about the perception of CCP bias against whichever faction was losing the FW fight. Sadly, the pirate factions are not yet included in FW.
sadly :(
Indeed!
I look forward to the day that we in the core militias have to choose between shooting each other or pirate militias now and then.
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I don't get where we can see that the Federation is an utopia. ._.
( Except in TEA )
First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society
I dunno, some of the older material made it pretty clear that citizens were inundated with corporate propaganda and that the only ones who had a good idea of what was actually going on were the few who had been transferred between megas, and that they were typically pretty jaded about things. I have always gotten the impression that the people in charge were very much involved in shaping every aspect of their employees lives, and that they were the ones who decided what the greater good was and how it should be pursued.
Hell, the megas grew people, they obviously have a hand in deciding how people ought to be. And wasn't Cold Wind published by a mega?
I've always had the impression that the megas have local monopolies (or nearly so) within their respective territories, and recent information confirms that the megas tend to pay in corporate scrip that is nearly worthless to other corps, and that they tend to hold large shares of new corps, even controlling shares. Starting up a new operation doesn't get you out from under their thumbs, it just makes you yet another head of the hydra.
There are obviously some differences. Pre-Heth, the State lacks a charismatic or prophetic leader. The committee in power is made up of the the boards of the megas, not a national council or other advisors and public leaders. The State has some tendencies towards oligarchy no matter how you slice it, I think, while the Fed has some very real problems with plutocracy.
I think they obviously overplayed Heth's hand by making him Hitler copypasta, but the idea of a totalitarian dictator rising to power on a populist wave and providing needed reform is kinda interesting to me. If only TonyG could have refrained from having him personally gun down Gallenteans, bleh.
That's pretty much what I think as well.
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The lack of success by the STPRO is simply because they never had the same degree of core cohesion by groups who were committed to remain in the fight and do what needed to be done together as one
Gesakaarin ,
I quite like the cut of your jib, but it it’s increasingly clear that you and I look at the faction war from very different angles.
While you view the QCATS et al as as valiantly sticking it out during the rough times when their Caldari counter parts ran for the hills; I view them as fish that’ve grown too big for a little pond but refuses to head for the ocean. As I see it, those other groups didn’t abandon FW, they dutifully moved on to bigger challenges. To me, sticking around to feed on young, disorganized prey because they enjoy being the baddest thing in the spawning pool isn’t to be lauded.
In my opinion FW isn’t the place to create a permanent space dominating coalition and trying to do makes it harder for the little guppies on both sides to thrive.
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Re: Seri likes starting troll threads
icwutudidthar
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This thread went from being about CCP favoritism to being about how "western ideals" make bad RPers.
Not sure painting broad "ur doing it wrong" strokes over lots of people is the best way to have a productive discussion.
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When I criticize CCP for how they have handled the portrayal of the Federation, it's primarily based on the above criticism. It's not that I think they need to make every other faction into a democratic, rights-based society. It's that I think the Federation is unrealistic as pictured - and I don't think that "subtlety!" is a good answer. Many of the problems of our modern democracies aren't subtle at all. How would the Federation handle a population which doesn't want to be educated? What about the balance of social services vs economic freedoms? Are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in the Fed? What's the crime situation like? How do they handle ethnic or religious immigrant conclaves that turn out radicalized or insular citizens? Are those isolated groups isolated because of radical beliefs, or because they are treated badly? Do they suffer from home-grown terrorism? Do they have religious groups trying to use democratically created laws to enforce religious customs? And so on. All of these things could be very realistic and thought-provoking problems, but we don't get them, because the Federation is a "utopia", and almost all problems come from the outside.
If you read some of the Fed PF beyond what one guy says in TEA, there's a lot of answers to these questions. You're basing your entire argument off of what one guy says in a book written by someone who doesn't even work for CCP, and even then, what one guy says is going to be inherently subjective.
Re: Seri likes starting troll threads
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/deal_with_it-Lakers.gif)
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If you read some of the Fed PF beyond what one guy says in TEA, there's a lot of answers to these questions. You're basing your entire argument off of what one guy says in a book written by someone who doesn't even work for CCP, and even then, what one guy says is going to be inherently subjective.
You base your entire argument about "Western culture skewing RP!" off your own opinion.
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That was Gesakaarin's point (which I happen to agree with); my argument is that there is no conscious and/or systemic "bias" against any of the four factions. A lot of Gesa's opinions stand true, especially that their character is called a "troll" rather than considered a legitimate Caldari character.
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I honestly have detected less trollishness from Caldari characters/players than from probably anyone else. I just am tired of people saying things like "People only choose Minmatar because they want to be punk rockers" or "people play Gallenteans because they think its space America".
I assure you, Gotti, me, Elsebeth, and so on did *NOT* choose to play Minmatar to be *punk rocker rebels* anymoreso than you or Andy play Gallenteans to be drug abusing sex addicts or any more than Desi and crew chose Caldari to be space nazis. The broad sweeping generalizations do a whole lot more injustice to the people who consciously avoid that sort of thing than they do to remedy any actual *problem* which may exist.
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However, you're reducing the point about western morals down to being the only reason why people chose these sides which obviously, as you've correctly said, isn't true.
I tend to agree with the original point because especially the State is often seen in a very relativistic light under these morals, where 'corporate dictatorship' gets somehow turned into a more libertarian than totalitarian entity. Needless to say I don't see the State as a dictatorship that rules through terror. The meritocratic ideals combined with the heiian mentality of the culture soften this up quite well, but in the end there are totalitarian elements and you are expected - not just by the megacorporations but by society itself - to do your part, else you face living a life outside the corporate shell and therefore out of society.
Saying that Republic/Federation are the good guys and State/Empire are the bad guys is too simple. However, it is easier to paint the former in a good light than it is with the latter, mainly because for us the basic themes and foundations of both the Republic and the Federation are closer to home. Ultimately CCP has given us enough ammunition to make both cases for and against every empire. It seems to be more a question how the RP community values these arguments.
Personally I think "Heth = Hitler" to be a rather oversimplified and needless to say quite distasteful comparison. My biggest criticism at that character is merely that TEA was written in a way that the entire merit of his ascent was outside influence and pure luck - but from the way it has to be seen based on (caldari) IC experiences he is a damn role model. More so for the masses of citizens than the execs, who,at that time, have rightfully felt threatened by that rise.
And the racism? Well, here we are, western morals, let's go back in time a bit and check how socially acceptable racism was and where it came from.
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However, you're reducing the point about western morals down to being the only reason why people chose these sides which obviously, as you've correctly said, isn't true.
I tend to agree with the original point because especially the State is often seen in a very relativistic light under these morals, where 'corporate dictatorship' gets somehow turned into a more libertarian than totalitarian entity. Needless to say I don't see the State as a dictatorship that rules through terror. The meritocratic ideals combined with the heiian mentality of the culture soften this up quite well, but in the end there are totalitarian elements and you are expected - not just by the megacorporations but by society itself - to do your part, else you face living a life outside the corporate shell and therefore out of society.
Saying that Republic/Federation are the good guys and State/Empire are the bad guys is too simple. However, it is easier to paint the former in a good light than it is with the latter, mainly because for us the basic themes and foundations of both the Republic and the Federation are closer to home. Ultimately CCP has given us enough ammunition to make both cases for and against every empire. It seems to be more a question how the RP community values these arguments.
Personally I think "Heth = Hitler" to be a rather oversimplified and needless to say quite distasteful comparison. My biggest criticism at that character is merely that TEA was written in a way that the entire merit of his ascent was outside influence and pure luck - but from the way it has to be seen based on (caldari) IC experiences he is a damn role model. More so for the masses of citizens than the execs, who,at that time, have rightfully felt threatened by that rise.
And the racism? Well, here we are, western morals, let's go back in time a bit and check how socially acceptable racism was and where it came from.
It could be said that the State IS totalitarian but this is normal by Caldari standards...totalitarian regimes in the past have been anomalous and exceptionalist regarding the countries they spawned from. When we hear 'dictator' IRL we think Hitler and all these people, but the Roman Caeser was a "dictator" or "despot". I don't think it's your typical paranoid dictatorship (outside of Heth), a more bureaucratic/administrative one. The authoritarianism is a product of the culture that ultimately is designed to serve it (see, modern PRC), not like short-lived dictatorships IRL that are meant to serve the people in power. The State would not have lasted long under the latter.
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While you view the QCATS et al as as valiantly sticking it out during the rough times when their Caldari counter parts ran for the hills; I view them as fish that’ve grown too big for a little pond but refuses to head for the ocean. As I see it, those other groups didn’t abandon FW, they dutifully moved on to bigger challenges. To me, sticking around to feed on young, disorganized prey because they enjoy being the baddest thing in the spawning pool isn’t to be lauded.
This isn't a theme park MMO, where you move to different areas where you gain in level. This is the sandbox and the endgame is what you make of it. By and large, our ranks are made up of people who prefer small-gang combat and the solo opportunities that low-security space offers. FW provides the quick access to PvP with a free wardec and plentiful WTs that nullsec does not.
Keep in mind that many of our veterans have tried nullsec and found it not to their liking. SOTF went full nullsec before they decided it was not for them. And who could blame them? After years of nonstop action, they ended up grappling with boring CTAs (sitting for hours in ship waiting for the call, only to be blueballed and then having to grind structures for more hours). Nullsec is a different lifestyle than low-sec. Viewing FW as a stepping stone or as a training ground for 'larger ponds' is a paternalistic and condescending view.
The idea that CCP was treating FW as a 'stepping stone' into nullsec was one of the major gripes of the population at large when Hans was elected. And part of his platform was going to CCP to change that attitude and make it clear that many in FW see it as their preferred end-game. This was a concern that was shared by many entities across different militias.
And it isn't the Caldari militia that are the only regular opponents of organized cap-dropping groups such as SOTF and SPDR. In low-sec, they also regularly face pirate groups such as Snuff Box, Shadow Cartel, etc. that have titans and capital ships and logistics doctrines of their own. Rather than being the 'big fish in a small pond,' they have other dedicated opponents who have made low-sec the end-game and fight with comparable numbers.
That few of these opponents make their home in the Caldari militia is not something you can blame them for.
Edit P.S. - Early last year, Pandemic Legion occupied Amamake. SOTF organized and attacked a Pandemic Legion Titan, managing to destroy it while risking (and losing!) a fair number of their own dreads (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4948). Last Alliance Tournament, SLAPD went all in and made it to the final day, winning matches against some longstanding AT veterans and committing billions worth in ships and entrance fees in doing so. What kind of "bigger challenges" you'd like them to "dutifully" move on to?
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This is the sandbox and the endgame is what you make of it.
This is true, but it doesn't change my opinion that they are trying to have the same endgame as a sov holding coalition but with less danger, less work and less (material) reward.
Edit P.S. - Early last year, Pandemic Legion occupied Amamake. SOTF organized and attacked a Pandemic Legion Titan, managing to destroy it while risking (and losing!) a fair number of their own dreads (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4948). Last Alliance Tournament, SLAPD went all in and made it to the final day, winning matches against some longstanding AT veterans and committing billions worth in ships and entrance fees in doing so. What kind of "bigger challenges" you'd like them to "dutifully" move on to?
These accomplishments are all things to be proud of but have nothing to do FW do they? That their biggest boasting rights come from times they've stepped out of their little pond into the bigger world of Eve is rather telling in my opinion. They aren't really bragging about that time they crushed that 40 man caracal gang the squids threw up or how quickly they capped that last constellation faster than those three guys in condors.
Then again, my perception is really biased against Facwar in general. I kind of hate it :)
What kind of "bigger challenges" you'd like them to "dutifully" move on to?
I honestly don't know, but hell if they wanted to stay in Blackrise/Placid for the easy access to small gang fights they could do that while outside of the FDU and let a new group cut their teeth at organizing the Federals to fight the good fight.
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I just gave the thread a bit of a cleaning for several inappropriate posts. Silver or I may take another pass later.
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Hamish do you have a judge's ruling on exactly how many members and what sort of PVP activity is acceptable to you for FW organizations?
Not being a fan, or not liking what is going on is one thing, whining to someone about how they should be playing the game your way is about as silly as it gets.
Back on topic!
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I honestly have detected less trollishness from Caldari characters/players than from probably anyone else. I just am tired of people saying things like "People only choose Minmatar because they want to be punk rockers" or "people play Gallenteans because they think its space America".
I assure you, Gotti, me, Elsebeth, and so on did *NOT* choose to play Minmatar to be *punk rocker rebels* anymoreso than you or Andy play Gallenteans to be drug abusing sex addicts or any more than Desi and crew chose Caldari to be space nazis. The broad sweeping generalizations do a whole lot more injustice to the people who consciously avoid that sort of thing than they do to remedy any actual *problem* which may exist.
I am not really sure if you are adressing to one of my last post, but I was pretty sure that I specifically targeted the masses. Of course that Gotti, you, Elsebeth and so on chose your faction with a little more tact and subtelty... :/
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Hamish do you have a judge's ruling on exactly how many members and what sort of PVP activity is acceptable to you for FW organizations?
Not being a fan, or not liking what is going on is one thing, whining to someone about how they should be playing the game your way is about as silly as it gets.
Back on topic!
Certain organizations were criticized for their choices (how they chose to play the game) to leave STPRO and compared unfavorably to the certain other organizations that chose to stay. I offered a different perspective, which I believe is a function of this forum, on those respective organizations and if that is whining about how someone is not playing the game how think they should then so is the post I was addressing.
BTW, what are you up to these days? I've been out of the loop.
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I certainly don't blame Shaalira's mob for being better at the whole FacWar thing than my chosen faction apparently is. I'm also not so sure about Pirate factions being excluded from FacWar, since I seem to spend more time dodging Pirate rapegangs than I do anything else - although what a steely-eyed zero-zero warrior gets from 'sploding my cheapfit Condor is debatable!
I also agree that FacWar shouldn't be seen as the PvP training ground. I see it as the PvP equivalent to highsec mission running, instead - a path that doesn't force you to ship-up into Cruisers and Battlecruisers before you've even learned to frigate properly.
On the matter of 'western ethics' it's clear that someone from China, Korea or Japan would be more comfortable with the concept of Heiian than us mob of Europeans and North Americans. That concept of surrendering some individual liberties and benefits in order to prioritise the group is much more stereotypically an Eastern thing. As regards the State's form of 'authoritarianism' I agree that it is probably less a matter of party vans and brute squads and more a matter of social ostracism and career suicide - although in an environment where these matters determine your housing, medical care, education for your kids and so on, that shouldn't be seen as a softer option.
The Caldari are proud of the State. You don't see a huge flood of dissidents fleeing across the border to the Federation or the Republic - and that isn't because they're not allowed to travel, either. Ostracism from society is seen as a punishment.
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I'm not saying that FW isn't for vets, just that I don't feel that an elite group like QCATS should boggart a militia just because they can.
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(http://l.wigflip.com/qj1MRDHo/roflbot.jpg)
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I'm not saying that FW isn't for vets, just that I don't feel that an elite group like QCATS should boggart a militia just because they can.
I had to look up 'boggart' on urban dictionary.
While the 'elite' tag is flattering, if questionable, this opinion does raise some questions.
1) At what point is an EVE player under the obligation to leave an activity they enjoy just because they end up too good at it?
2) Why should NullSov be the final destination of low-sec PvPers when it's a wholly different playstyle, including activities and obligations that many of the aforementioned pilots would find to be utter chores?
3) Do you really think a small alliance of 120 members, including alts and inactives, really has such an overwhelming effect on militias numbering in the thousands, in a warzone of over a hundred star systems?
4) When capital-capable, numerous, and organized nullsec groups such as Ev0ke and Nulli Secundus freely enter FW and engage in hostilities, why should long-established FW groups be expected to leave to make room for the 'guppies'?
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At this point, I've got to be honest - even if CCP are biased towards Gallente, I don't actually care. There is almost no-one in the Caldari militia who isn't a roleplayer that I actually respect, because it seems to me that every non-roleplayer in STPRO I run into acts incredibly spiteful and offensive (apart from a few members of Liandri Covenant, who are actually respectful and reasonable).
Caldari held the entire warzone for more than six months when the system had no reward for recapturing systems and was massively tipped in favour of the current occupant of the system. Gallente held the entire warzone for less than a day and then almost immediately lost nine systems and elements of the STPRO are crying foul. Really?
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Because, Andreus, it's considerably easier to be bitter, whining haters or at least act the part, than organizing your militia together into a cohesive force and pushing back. If the Cal-Mil as a whole had done that, WHEN they do that, the war-zone will be far more 'fair' and 'equal' and considerably more interesting for everyone involved. I was not there for the final push - matter of fact I've not 'been there' for the last 6 months at least - but from what I hear all the last systems were felled one-by-one while the people who lived there locally fought. They got no back-up from other areas, and left once their system was lost. Then the next system faced a similar fate, and so on, until all these independent groups were gone.
If the Caldari had unified like the Federation's forces had, this situation would be very different, but I honestly fear this won't happen now - The Villore Accords were made in response to losing the whole war-zone and they shaped up to get it back. The Caldari had no time to shape up before systems were re-taken, so I'm afraid they might go on as fractured and solitary as they do now, because there will be no 'need' to unify.
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If the Cal-Mil as a whole had done that, WHEN they do that, the war-zone will be far more 'fair' and 'equal' and considerably more interesting for everyone involved. I was not there for the final push - matter of fact I've not 'been there' for the last 6 months at least - but from what I hear all the last systems were felled one-by-one while the people who lived there locally fought. They got no back-up from other areas, and left once their system was lost. Then the next system faced a similar fate, and so on, until all these independent groups were gone.
If the Caldari had unified like the Federation's forces had, this situation would be very different, but I honestly fear this won't happen now - The Villore Accords were made in response to losing the whole war-zone and they shaped up to get it back. The Caldari had no time to shape up before systems were re-taken, so I'm afraid they might go on as fractured and solitary as they do now, because there will be no 'need' to unify.
Basically, this. I mean, I'm going to go ahead and point out that the baiting and smack in local from the Villore accords and others was a little obnoxious too, but the FDU is essentially organised and the STPRO is not.
We're very fortunate that we had Ev0ke and Liandri, otherwise we could have wound up locked out for quite awhile.
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Outgunned and outnumbered militias (Amarr and Gallente) usually have a history of being more organized and cohesive than their counterparts. If they were not, they would have collapsed for long.
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It isnt just the STPRO who cry foul.
When the changes came, the lion's share of the 24th whined on blogs, left in droves, had emorage meltdowns against Hans, and did their all to get me banned instead of actually fighting.
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News flash:
You'll find scrotes everywhere. They are in STPRO, they are in the FDU.
News flash²:
You'll find people are more willing to lay the blame on someone else instead of buckling up. There've been imbalances throughout the past and there always was cause for whines, hate and bile on the forums. The side that has the upper hand is, surprisingly, less inclined to complain or buy into the complaints from the other side, because it's not imbalance, it's personal skill.
Personally, I'm just going to go all reasonable (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E39WWj_RpBc) and will try to explode all the things, because Shaalira actually has a point: FW offers a unique enviroment to go and explode internet spaceships in.
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I have heard that Ava blobs in solo wolfs, c/y?
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Some in STPRO tried to organize once, in the beginning. Didn't get very far before a major PvP corp said, "No and not only no, but if you continue to try and organize the STPRO's efforts we will wardec those who support your efforts." Ah, old times.
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First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society - if you desired, you could dissent all you wanted, but good luck getting a job if you made yourself more annoying to whatever Mega you served in than it considered you to be worth. This is why I don't think the Caldari even have a concept of a rights-based morality as the Gallente do - it's not whether you have the right to speak freely, you can say anything you want - the question is of the social and economic consequences of a statement or action.
There's no question that CCP has since moved the State towards totalitarianism. And the State was certainly always authoritarian. But originally, the State didn't seem to care if you grumbled in your beer with another employee about your nasty manager, as long as you worked hard and didn't make a fuss unnecessarily.
I would agree in general, however, the concepts of totalitarianism in the Caldari State I pointed out have little to do with the ideologies of the Soviets or the Nazis some might take issue with. Neither is it a "One Party" system. Rather, the totalitarian vein in the State I have always seen has always been more similar to the philosophy of Legalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_%28Chinese_philosophy%29). It has been stated the Megacorporations have essentially been powers unto themselves and are able to to dictate their own laws individually over their own employees and dictate the laws of the State themselves through the CEP. There does exist repression and oppression in the State, not only because there has not been a single shred of libertarianism or concepts of personal liberty outlined in the faction but also because:
1. The "Dissenters" background description reads the following: "The cold discipline of Caldari society does not appeal to everyone, nor is everyone happy with the stranglehold that corporate rulers have on everyday life. While not outright rebellious, dissenters nonetheless invest considerable time and effort in trying to change the system from within. The State keeps a close eye on these individuals. "
2. In "The Caldari (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Caldari_%28Chronicle%29)" it depicts what might occur to what a Megacorporation might deem a "dissident" and it basically tells the tale of an almost Orwellian reprogramming of said dissident.
3. The Brothers of Freedom (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Brothers_of_FreedomBrothers of Freedom) outlines what happens if you decide to protest against the authority of the State and its Megacorporations, you end up persecuted, hunted down and killed by the security forces of the State.
Those are a few examples of what might be described as totalitarian elements within the Caldari State that were provided prior to the rise of Tibus Heth. The Caldari State and its corporations through just those three examples clearly seeks to control its citizens both through the strictures of the law as can be seen in the clearance document text every new Caldari receives:
"The hypercapitalist corporate state of the Caldari is awash with these sorts of documents, however, and the tendency towards needless bureaucracy is simply a part of corporate life."
And they are more than willing and able to do so because the Caldari State is described as having:
"no central government to speak of - all territories within the State are owned and ruled by corporations. Duty and discipline are required traits in Caldari citizens, plus unquestioning loyalty to the corporation they live to serve."
Caldari corporations control almost every aspect of their citizens lives, expect and demand unquestioning loyalty to them, use corporate scrip to economically bind their employees to them, watch and monitor for any sign of dissent against their authority and in cases in which it occurs either deal with it by using the corporate 'Room 101' or just efficiently liquidate those involved. Sure, a citizen can grumble all they like in private, but if their company deems the content of their thoughts against their interests or their laws and it's discovered then the consequences and penalties can be harsh and there isn't an independent judiciary to appeal to.
There might be a fine line between authoritarianism and totalitarianism and the only real change currently is that the State itself as a whole by empowering Tibus Heth as its Executor has become just as totalitarian as its constituent Megacorporations. Because in the end, 'CEO' might as well translate to effective Dictator within their respective corporate domains whose only real check on their power were the shareholders of their respective companies -- a situation which seems to have lead directly to riot and revolt with the BoF and Provists respectively, and which only Ishukone appears to have escaped due to their policy of employee share divestments.
I do not view CCP's release of PF for the Caldari State as a sudden paradigm shift towards it being a totalitarian system, but rather a confirmation that the State has always been totalitarian and seeking to describe and define the systems of control within the State and the methods into which such a system is supported by its citizenry on the basis of Caldari societal norms, culture, history and traditions that justify the creation of their own collectivist, meritocratic and capitalist nation. Difficulties will certainly arise however if moral judgement is passed on the State by the strictures of modern democratic standards and not by attempting to view the State through the lens of Caldari philosophy and political thought which CCP seeks to provide and whose authors have clearly rejected the thinking of both classical and modern liberalism.
But I do think that the association with Nazism is more than coincidental or natural. TonyG, whether with the company or not, whether the author of most PF or not, did write the defining book on the current leadership and society of the State. It's very obvious that Heth is a Hitler clone, from the fomenting fake unrest to provide reasons for invasion to the persecution of ethnic immigrants. This from the same nation that, earlier, used its own navy to violently destroy a racist attack on Intaki immigrants. It wasn't that Heth fit previous PF, Heth didn't fit a lot of previous PF, but that PF was ignored or twisted so that we could be saddled with the character for the next five years or so. And, to date, you are one of the very few Caldari RPers I've met who is even willing to associate their character with the leader of the State. Many, perhaps even most, Caldari RPers were very disgruntled by the change. I remember quite a few who read TEA, muttered an obscenity, and essentially quit RPing.
I believe the real issue for myself with Tibus Heth is that he was written in such a fashion that his xenophobic and irrational hatred for anything and everything that looks, smells, or acts Gallentean overshadowed every aspect behind the Provist revolution and the rise of the CPD. The character appears written to achieve one goal: Attack the Federation. Not out of any real requirements of national politics but rather for the simple reason that he hated Gallenteans with blind passion and wanted Caldari Prime back. To achieve that aim, yes, he was imbued with what could be said to be some rather abhorrent characteristics such as racial prejudice and violent ultranationalism that made him difficult to sympathize with as a human being.
I think it was unnecessary to imbue him with those characteristics because in its absence, he would have just been the leader of a successful labour movement in the State which probably would have made both himself and the Provists easier to relate to and understand, because in the end, violent ultranationalists had always been portrayed as extremists and in the minority not only because while they were stated as being so in the PF prior to TEA, they were also a threat to Megacorporate authority. I personally don't think portraying the State as a whole as supportive of Heth's brand of violent nationalism was necessary to write how war between the State and Federation began, not only because it detracts from the CPD as being fundamentally a labour reformist movement worthy in its own right but also because there were so many other options available besides having the Caldari State as aggressors lead by a violent and jingoistic nationalist.
Why not have it be about Mentas Blaque rising to power and usurping Foiritain by spreading fear about the instability caused by the CPD in the State and then having a minor border incident used as a pretext for invasion?
Why not have it simply be Mutual Defence Pact activations caused by the Elder invasion of the Empire?
In the end, TonyG and to an extent CCP themselves by allowing TEA to be published framed it as the violent and aggressive Caldari State lead by an ultranationalist leader in Heth attacking the peaceful and moderate Federation under Foiritain using the pretext of Malkalen which as a casus belli barely holds any substance and which implied directly, "No, it's not really about Malkalen but we just hate all Gallente and want Caldari Prime." To me as a player that read as a direct black and white attributation of the State as the violent and unsympathetic 'bad guys' vs. the peaceful and aggrieved Federal 'good guys'.
TonyG through characters such as Heth and Karsoth deliberately removed any sense of sympathy for readers to associate with either the State or Empire who were in turns portrayed through them as violent, intolerant, and corrupt while Republic and Federal characters were portrayed as the moderate, tolerant and empathetic victims of their predations.
This does not however change the fact that Tibus Heth is the State Executor and that he did recapture Caldari Prime. My character has her own views, but as a Caldari duty is all the same so she supports the CPD generally not because she may particularly agree with everything they espouse but more that she had recently moved from SuVee to KK due to familial obligations and feels that she must, not only as a proof of loyalty to her parent company, but because she's not in a position to question - only serve to the best of her ability. That to me is the essence of being a Caldari, and that conflict between duty and conscience is an interesting theme to explore in a character. Shed the tears in private but never in public and all that.
When I criticize CCP for how they have handled the portrayal of the Federation, it's primarily based on the above criticism. It's not that I think they need to make every other faction into a democratic, rights-based society. It's that I think the Federation is unrealistic as pictured - and I don't think that "subtlety!" is a good answer. Many of the problems of our modern democracies aren't subtle at all. How would the Federation handle a population which doesn't want to be educated? What about the balance of social services vs economic freedoms? Are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in the Fed? What's the crime situation like? How do they handle ethnic or religious immigrant conclaves that turn out radicalized or insular citizens? Are those isolated groups isolated because of radical beliefs, or because they are treated badly? Do they suffer from home-grown terrorism? Do they have religious groups trying to use democratically created laws to enforce religious customs? And so on. All of these things could be very realistic and thought-provoking problems, but we don't get them, because the Federation is a "utopia", and almost all problems come from the outside.
I think those elements are there, it's just that players don't utilize or ignore them in order to buy into the vision of the Federation as the 'good guys'. This can make sense in the fact that any character has to perceive themselves as the 'good guys' to an extent or at least justify what they do even if it can lead to strange cases of cognitive dissonance where in order to support the vision of the Federation being able to do no wrong IC'ly it leads to cases of rampant apologia or even denying the voice of other Federal citizens through slander who dare criticize it. Does that not reflect certain elements of reality though? I mean it only takes two minutes to roll a Fed character who is a dissident, outline the flaws of the Federation and watch those who seek to defend it, flail impotently if you frame the discussion correctly. The only reason corruption and greed prevails in the Federation is because its defenders deny that it could possibly exist within it. I mean, when the Fed epic arc can have you shooting up Minmatar ghettos and blowing up the brothels of decadent sex fetishists for one, they can't all be the 'good guys' no?
Although the lack of social commentary on the Fed or even any negative views expressed by it's citizenry on President Roden or Blaque and the SDII particularly surrounding supposed constitutional law, electoral law, or civil liberties does seem rather odd for what is meant to be a 'utopian' democracy. That, or maybe they're just really good at suppressing information about their activities so that people can keep on living the dream about freedom, liberty and all that good stuff.
To your point about western players, I think that Vikarion has not been Gallentean in mindset. It has definitely annoyed other characters when Vikarion makes statements like "if I have to kill every Federation citizen to protect the State, I will". But Vikarion doesn't even get why such a statement is even controversial, because to him, loyalty to his corporation and nation is a given. I say this to try to illustrate that I understand your point about players, to a certain extent. On the other hand, you can only go so far in creating a fictional culture before the majority of people start having trouble relating to it.
Yes, it's why I quite like Vikarion as a character.
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I have heard that Ava blobs in solo wolfs, c/y?
C
That's why she has to be banned. :3
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Its not public knowledge ( I was there) but the BoF rebellion was staged by the broker. Out of a population of billions he collected a few thousand dissidents, crazy folks, and ethnic Caldari from the Federation in a group and fed them some rhetoric. Their job was to make it look like a grass roots populist rebellion had sprung up on it's own and managed to fund a their multi-billion ISK (not script, ISK) fleet on their own in a time when a billion ISK was still a significant amount to a Capsuleer Corp.
He then contacted CAIN under the guise of a mysterious figure calling himself 'The Patriot' and gave us a line about terrorist targeting civilians and put us in contact with a small security firm that was supposedly working for State authorities to stop them. In reality the security firm worked for the Broker, if the CEO himself was not just another guise for the broker. Their job was to murder the poor bastards he duped in the BoF on a live news feed.
A dry run for the rise of Heth?
It's not to saying it's not policy to shoot rebels but The Broker went to a lot of trouble to get them shot down because the CEP would do it themselves.
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