Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: orange on 18 Mar 2013, 20:29
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Apparently a DUST 514 (http://themittani.com/news/dust-514-battle-features-crashed-leviathan) map (/update) features a crashed Leviathan in the background.
So, unless the leak changes the course of the story, either the Fed will cause the Leviathan to crash into Caldari Prime or if we can't have it no one will strategy comes to pass.
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It's just CCP railroading the Caldari to lose. Again. It doesn't matter what we actually do in the game, the Caldari are almost certainly going to lose Caldari Prime.
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Oh well, you've had a good run with it.
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I would view it more in the nature of a correction, since I think the entire 'grab Caldari Prime' plot line was a little difficult to believe in the first place.
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Falcon commented earlier that people are doing a lot of speculating about this, and that they "need glasses".
So it may not be what it appears.
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Falcon commented earlier that people are doing a lot of speculating about this, and that they "need glasses".
So it may not be what it appears.
Link?
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Falcon commented earlier that people are doing a lot of speculating about this, and that they "need glasses".
So it may not be what it appears.
Link?
[ 2013.03.18 22:05:10 ] Katrina Oniseki > CCP Falcon - Any comments on the GD thread that has video capture of a 'Crashed Titan" on Caldari Prime?
[ 2013.03.18 22:05:18 ] Katrina Oniseki > from DUST Beta
[ 2013.03.18 22:05:20 ] Randy Orien-Beryle > ^^^^^
[ 2013.03.18 22:05:26 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > CCP Falcon DONT COMMENT
[ 2013.03.18 22:05:36 ] Randy Orien-Beryle > /emote stabs Seriphyn Inhonores.
[ 2013.03.18 22:05:46 ] Samira Kernher > don't ask for spoilers!
[ 2013.03.18 22:06:09 ] CCP Falcon > lol
[ 2013.03.18 22:06:48 ] CCP Falcon > all I'll say is that you people 1) need to buy glasses, and 2) speculate a lot :)
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tbh when i was playing the map it didn't really look like a titan, that might have been because it was in pieces but it looked to small to be a titan, it looked more like a piece from a Chimera or a Phoenix.
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(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/100/dis%20gon%20be%20good.gif)
Just chill guys. Wait and see what happens. xD
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Might not be a Leviathan?
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Looks a lot more like a piece of something, like a Chimera or Leviathan, but not the whole thing.
You could over-analyze it, sure. To me it just looks like a very pretty static mesh that gives a game in beta a little more needed atmosphere. :)
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It's just CCP railroading the Caldari to lose. Again. It doesn't matter what we actually do in the game, the Caldari are almost certainly going to lose Caldari Prime.
Provide examples of all the times the Caldari has been railroaded into losing?
Either that or stop complaining.
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The sheer size of the damn thing puts it well over the Chimera, unless 1 kilometre in Dust is a Big Deal? A Leviathan or possibly a Wyvern would be needed to great a husk that huge.
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Might not be a Leviathan?
Look at it you see it's shape it looks like leviatan :roll:
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I'm not too familiar with capital ship models...besides my beloved Providence/Ark so I can't really say it looks like a bit of any other ship to me. That said, I haven't seen anyone else mention it...but could this be a Rogue Drone drop ship equivalent? The colors are a bit difficult to truly judge in the image provided, lighting can make for some startling changes after all. However, given that Dust has touted "survival matches" against waves of drones, I have to consider it a possibility. And lets be honest, rogue drones could very easily see no problem with crashing a giant craft into a planet as a means of landing/colonizing.
tl,dr;
Rogue Drone Hive Shard.
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It's just CCP railroading the Caldari to lose. Again. It doesn't matter what we actually do in the game, the Caldari are almost certainly going to lose Caldari Prime.
Provide examples of all the times the Caldari has been railroaded into losing?
Either that or stop complaining.
I've done so on this site.
For example:
First major taking of territory in FW: the Caldari take a bunch of systems. No ill effects for the Gallente.
The Gallente take a bunch of systems (the FOOM push): CCP writes that they conduct a scorched earth campaign, wrecking Black Rise.
The Caldari FWers take all systems and hold them for 6-8 months: The Caldari corporations make an unbelievably stupid decision and move into Placid with tons of infrastructure and investments. No "scorched earth" policy here, nu-uh. The instant they lose those systems, the State is in a recession again. The Gallente, on the other hand, suffer nothing but getting a new and much more awesome president.
Eventually the Gallente take all Caldari systems for several hours. Tibus Heth starts a civil war in the State. along with a lot more crap.
Then the Caldari retake most of Black Rise and a good chunk of Placid. So Heth cancels the Blind Auction, crippling the Megas even more, and the Gallente start retaking Caldari Prime.
And that's just FW.
EDIT: I mean, seriously, the Gallente got a new and much better leader when the Caldari took all Gallente systems. What did we get? We had Heth, possibly the character that Caldari RPers hate the most, survive an assassination attempt.
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I don't think Heth will survive much longer either way.
Anyway, while I do think it looks like a Leviathan, it could be another ship. However, there could also be more backgrounds (such as one with an Erebus or a Soltueur).
In the end, make sure you hang onto your Magic Crystal Ball.
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What Grid said mostly.
Also, as much as I share your feelings about Heth to a degree, Vikarion, please stop speaking for the Caldari roleplay community at large. Back in her militia days Sol was a provist, for example, who saw Heth as a war hero. You have an OOC axe to grind with CCP, that much is clear, but you speak for yourself. You're an asset to the community, and an iconic Caldari role player, but I chafe at being given views and opinions (in the eyes of the community through shared 'Caldariness') by someone I have barely even spoken to.
Whatever happens, I will be interested to see what form it takes.
RE: Falcon's glasses comment, Grideris, TS-F and I debated what it might be, ranging from 'a really close range front portion of a Drake', through carrier and Wyvern up to a leviathan - plus Grids proposed 'could be a changeable skybox' mentioned above. From the small portion of the visible ship, it is really hard to see what it is (though they almost certainly ruled out a Drake and I cling onto the notion only feebly), though there are certain Leviathan attributes.
When all is said and done, taking this on pure spectacle over storyline, crashed ship skyboxes look pretty damned cool. Now they just need to put more meat on on the bones, DUST is a bit repetitive atm :(.
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RE: Falcon's glasses comment, Grideris, TS-F and I debated what it might be, ranging from 'a really close range front portion of a Drake', through carrier and Wyvern up to a leviathan - plus Grids proposed 'could be a changeable skybox' mentioned above. From the small portion of the visible ship, it is really hard to see what it is (though they almost certainly ruled out a Drake and I cling onto the notion only feebly), though there are certain Leviathan attributes.
Falcon's glasses comment may not mean we're misidentifying the ship. It could mean something completely different, like maybe we're missing something in the loading screen. Maybe it's something outside the video we've missed.
Falcon sure seems to think it's something obvious.
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It's just CCP railroading the Caldari to lose. Again. It doesn't matter what we actually do in the game, the Caldari are almost certainly going to lose Caldari Prime.
It doesn't matter what CCP does, roleplayers are almost certainly going to go out of their way to be offended anyway.
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maybe it is a leviathan but maybe that isn't Caldari Prime?
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maybe it is a leviathan but maybe that isn't Caldari Prime?
Beat me to it.
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The player does a pan of the sky at 1:58 (http://youtu.be/SJhiOzNc1Jg?t=1m58s). The nebula in the background appears to be very similar to the nebula for Essence, but I am not particularly familiar with its details having not spent much time in Essence.
So it is at least somewhere in said region.
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It could be Gallente Prime. Maybe the Titan didn't go down softly. :D
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This topic could use a *SPOILER* title by the way, some people wouldn't like to have PF things like this broadcast.
I didn't get a good look but maybe it was the half-collapsed Provist HQ tower? Although spaceship crashes always good.
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Even a 102-story building wouldn't look that large unless you were right up next to it.
It's also not Gallente Prime - Dust battles tell you exactly what planet you are on.
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I had forgotten all of the flaming wreckage meteoring in the background as well.
Definitely something space explodey going on :)
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From TMC's article, in the comment section: "The event servers were labelled with "TEST", so it makes sense that nothing has happened on the EVE side of things yet."
Could be Falcon's glasses comment was intended to point towards this and that we shouldn't take it quite so seriously just yet?
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This topic could use a *SPOILER* title by the way, some people wouldn't like to have PF things like this broadcast.
This!
I'm thankful that I read some more of this thread and see Verone's comments, so it will at least be somewhat more of a surpise what will happen exactly, or I would be doing :bash:
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Maybe CCP is testing some sort of mechanic to dynamically add wrecks of various ships to battlefields.
I can dream.
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Maybe CCP is testing some sort of mechanic to dynamically add wrecks of various ships to battlefields.
Great news, guys! I just thought of a way to drop all of our ordnance onto the battlefield simultaneously!
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And yes, there apparently were event servers, with events on Caldari Prime. Which, technically, does not require that they should happen on the planet when things go live.
Tbh, I'd expect something Rechard-like happen should a titan crash on a planet. With a lot more mess than that (no, 11 kilometer long metal dick dropping from an orbit doesn't just neatly stand on its tip in the sand when it falls). The Nyx hit a mere station and was obliterated. Though in this game of wacky space submarines, realism doesn't mean anything.
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Also, as much as I share your feelings about Heth to a degree, Vikarion, please stop speaking for the Caldari roleplay community at large. Back in her militia days Sol was a provist, for example, who saw Heth as a war hero. You have an OOC axe to grind with CCP, that much is clear, but you speak for yourself. You're an asset to the community, and an iconic Caldari role player, but I chafe at being given views and opinions (in the eyes of the community through shared 'Caldariness') by someone I have barely even spoken to.
It's a fact, not an opinion, that most of the Caldari RPers do not care for Heth. I'm not speaking "for them", I'm relying on what people like Hamish, Dex, the RPers in the Fourth District, etc, have actually said. Now, you may be one of the very few Caldari RPers who just loves Heth. That's fine. But it's unreasonable to expect someone else to qualify that every time they talk about the Caldari RP scene at large.
If you can find a large proportion of Caldari RPers who do think that Heth is awesome, I will stand corrected, and will give you due respect. I have not been able to find them myself.
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Personally I do not think 'Heth is awesome' but neither do I agree with the use of a subset of the community at large, without qualification (you just said 'most' which is a fair assessment IMO and a fair qualifier of the situation, as opposed to a blanket statement of 'Caldari Rpers think X') is unfair to any who may not have as prominent a voice in their portrayal of the RP.
To qualify my position - Heth is something Caldari are overcoming and are currently enduring, even if the majority of us hate him, he is having some effect in unifying certain elements and entrenching others in their factionalism. Good or bad for the RP? Depends who you ask. But age nor majority do not qualify a distaste or dislike as a statement of fact across a sub-group.
It is a fact a good few people dislike he who shall not be named's influence, and I agree in many respects. But as someone sitting in the 'Heth could have been a force for good - So I'll play this as a 'oh how the mighty have fallen' trope' camp, it is irritating to be told time and time again that 'Caldari role players' this and that.
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Tbh, I'd expect something Rechard-like happen should a titan crash on a planet. With a lot more mess than that (no, 11 kilometer long metal dick dropping from an orbit doesn't just neatly stand on its tip in the sand when it falls). The Nyx hit a mere station and was obliterated. Though in this game of wacky space submarines, realism doesn't mean anything.
Rule of Awesome is strongly in force. It looks badass crashed there, towering into the sky like a huge burning metal dick. Its probably slowly crumbling and collapsing into itself as the tritanium reacts with the atmosphere and is weakened. Which will be CCPs explanation for why the map will feature it on fire for the next 4 years. Malkalen is still burning, so...
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Tbh, I'd expect something Rechard-like happen should a titan crash on a planet. With a lot more mess than that (no, 11 kilometer long metal dick dropping from an orbit doesn't just neatly stand on its tip in the sand when it falls). The Nyx hit a mere station and was obliterated. Though in this game of wacky space submarines, realism doesn't mean anything.
Rule of Awesome is strongly in force. It looks badass crashed there, towering into the sky like a huge burning metal dick. Its probably slowly crumbling and collapsing into itself as the tritanium reacts with the atmosphere and is weakened. Which will be CCPs explanation for why the map will feature it on fire for the next 4 years. Malkalen is still burning, so...
Rule of Awesome/Rule of Cool pretty much sums this up. I don't care which nation it belongs to - a big ass ship digging a trench into continental crust is something everyone should see (from a distance)!
Personally, I hope for some form of 'scavenging' or anti-drone pve mode to integrate battlefields with substantial portions of crashed ships to fight over in the faaaar future, but for now, burning skybox crashes are good enough.
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What I want to know is how they generated that skybox, and if they are working on a way to do it procedurally, so they can just add them in at will, perhaps even put it behind a game mechanic involving ship kills above districts or somesuch.
Imagine fighting in the piled carcasses of ships after one of those 1000 man fleet battles.
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If you can find a large proportion of Caldari RPers who do think that Heth is awesome, I will stand corrected, and will give you due respect. I have not been able to find them myself.
It's not about awesome he or not, and most probably opinion of Caldari RPers is not equal to opinion of their character.
The idea behind following Heth is being loyal to the State and citizens, following subordination and being professional.
From my humble opinion, a honorable Caldari would better end his life than rebel against his superior if he thinks that his superior is not right. And that's why i don't understand why so many peoples (caldari) icly state anti-hethist views.
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There is no honor in being silent while someone's idiocy destroys the greater good. Caldari society is supposed to be organized based on merit; if someone does not deserve their position, there is a duty for those underneath him to make their case that he or she should be replaced. Especially when that person is exercising authority that is clearly contradictory to established laws and traditions.
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I echo Lithium Flower's judgement:
Saving face.
Work connections in the boardrooms, in the factory halls, on the streets to influence the situation - but don't denounce someone publically.
I can absolutely understand the anti-Heth sentiments to some degree (Although I've often got the feeling that there seems to be a metric fuckton of OOC butthurtness that sometimes seems to blend through, as in disagreeing with CCP and not disagreeing with IC entities), but I can#t understand the public statements. It's only my opinion / interpretation though ;)
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Pretty valid points all round in the last few points. if anything I feel that this does nothing but justice the diverse and highly developed landscape of the rp that we, the Caldari roleplayers at large, have generate because of, and despite, one another. Either way suits me down to the ground - conflict is every bit as beneficial as unity and I am glad to count myself bopth a staunch practical, but also a Caldari RPer in general.
RE: Saede - Procedural generation is something that would be very interesting to see - especially if the intensity of a private conflict over resources were to show similar signs of serious ecospheric damage and ship crashes as the casualties mount up on both ends.
Exciting times.
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There is no honor in being silent while someone's idiocy destroys the greater good. Caldari society is supposed to be organized based on merit; if someone does not deserve their position, there is a duty for those underneath him to make their case that he or she should be replaced. Especially when that person is exercising authority that is clearly contradictory to established laws and traditions.
The problem is, that Caldari society is based on merit only because of Heth. Before Heth, it was based on nepotism. Besides, from regular Caldari citizen's point of view, Heth made life better.
So, what exactly is this "greater good", that his "idiocy" destroys, eh?
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It's just CCP railroading the Caldari to lose. Again. It doesn't matter what we actually do in the game, the Caldari are almost certainly going to lose Caldari Prime.
Provide examples of all the times the Caldari has been railroaded into losing?
Either that or stop complaining.
I've done so on this site.
For example:
First major taking of territory in FW: the Caldari take a bunch of systems. No ill effects for the Gallente.
The Gallente take a bunch of systems (the FOOM push): CCP writes that they conduct a scorched earth campaign, wrecking Black Rise.
The Caldari FWers take all systems and hold them for 6-8 months: The Caldari corporations make an unbelievably stupid decision and move into Placid with tons of infrastructure and investments. No "scorched earth" policy here, nu-uh. The instant they lose those systems, the State is in a recession again. The Gallente, on the other hand, suffer nothing but getting a new and much more awesome president.
Eventually the Gallente take all Caldari systems for several hours. Tibus Heth starts a civil war in the State. along with a lot more crap.
Then the Caldari retake most of Black Rise and a good chunk of Placid. So Heth cancels the Blind Auction, crippling the Megas even more, and the Gallente start retaking Caldari Prime.
And that's just FW.
EDIT: I mean, seriously, the Gallente got a new and much better leader when the Caldari took all Gallente systems. What did we get? We had Heth, possibly the character that Caldari RPers hate the most, survive an assassination attempt.
You've made your contempt for the current course of Caldari story quite clear. I sometimes wonder do you pause to see the moments where Caldari are actually portrayed as decent folk and not nazi jackboots. I'll give you a few examples;
Feds burn Black Rise ok... They prove to be the villain here. In this particular case very clearly too.
Caldari don't do that. Making them have the moral high ground in the war, and earning them good guy points.
Feds have drug crazed convicts approved as ground troops who fucking shit up in multitude of ways.
Caldari don't. They have professional military folks and mercenaries who either don't do that, or do that on such a small scale that it's not even a blip on the radar. Thus again making them better of two evils in the war.
In regards to how the two entities are portrayed Caldari do have in this matter the good guy badge. Sure they they shot first but the following conduct of war quite shows the Caldari coming out ahead morally if not financially internal politics aside.
Right back to the topic. Caldari are quickly heading down the road to civil unrest if not war. When they start to struggle internally, it would no surprise that they could not support the supply lines and effort to keep Caldari Prime under their yoke. They're stretching their limits as they are as mentioned in TBL. So if the Leviathan does indeed get nuked, it shouldn't come as any surprise.
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There is no honor in being silent while someone's idiocy destroys the greater good. Caldari society is supposed to be organized based on merit; if someone does not deserve their position, there is a duty for those underneath him to make their case that he or she should be replaced. Especially when that person is exercising authority that is clearly contradictory to established laws and traditions.
The problem is, that Caldari society is based on merit only because of Heth. Before Heth, it was based on nepotism. Besides, from regular Caldari citizen's point of view, Heth made life better.
So, what exactly is this "greater good", that his "idiocy" destroys, eh?
Almost all the Caldari PF had the Caldari State as a meritocracy. It wasn't until TonyG with TEA that we heard anything about nepotism being a major force in Caldari society. The disconnect between pre-TonyG PF and post-TEA pf in regards to Caldari life is so large it's like the faction was completely rethought.
As for the Caldari being completely subservient to authority, I don't know where people get that. The Caldari are honorable, not obedient. These are the same people who fought a century long war of rebellion, killed their opponents within their own ranks (morning of reasoning) and even had a heritage in the Civire bloodline (IIRC) of "dissenters" - people who wanted to change facets of the State. The Caldari State is not Japan.
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That's the dichotomy of being caldari, I guess. You've got the themes 'Ruthless in business' and being self-sacrificing for their group. These are clashing in so many possible ways that you can't make swiping statements that easy. Of course a meritocracy will have problems with nepotism and corruption. If you take TEA with a grain of salt you could interprete that this threatens the meritocracy and you've got a worker movement (Dissenters anyone?) that wants to change that for the betterment of (caldari) society.
On the opposing side you've got the federation as the beacon of liberty and hope, as illustrated so graciously by Vincent Pryce. They're getting the share of "Nice ideals, but fucked up realities", too. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, after all.
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The problem is, that Caldari society is based on merit only because of Heth. Before Heth, it was based on nepotism. Besides, from regular Caldari citizen's point of view, Heth made life better.
So, what exactly is this "greater good", that his "idiocy" destroys, eh?
That is incorrect. Caldari society was always supposed to be based on merit and the supremacy of the market. It didn't come from nowhere.
And the view of the "regular Caldari citizen" is irrelevant. The Caldari are not a democracy. The Caldari are a corporate plutocracy where the shareholders entrust the leadership of the corporations with the guidance of public policy; the State is demonstrably worse off now than it was ten years ago.
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The Caldari are honorable, not obedient. These are the same people who fought a century long war of rebellion, killed their opponents within their own ranks (morning of reasoning) and even had a heritage in the Civire bloodline (IIRC) of "dissenters" - people who wanted to change facets of the State. The Caldari State is not Japan.
Duty and discipline are required traits in Caldari citizens, plus unquestioning loyalty to the corporation they live to serve.
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Loyalty to the corporation, not the man in charge of it. Svetlana is fiercely loyal to the State and Ishukone, but she has criticized Heth, Gariushi, and Reppola not in spite of that loyalty, but because of it. Because the prosperity of her corporation and State are far more important than the egos of any one person.
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Loyalty to the corporation, not the man in charge of it. Svetlana is fiercely loyal to the State and Ishukone, but she has criticized Heth, Gariushi, and Reppola not in spite of that loyalty, but because of it. Because the prosperity of her corporation and State are far more important than the egos of any one person.
This.
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Almost all the Caldari PF had the Caldari State as a meritocracy. It wasn't until TonyG with TEA that we heard anything about nepotism being a major force in Caldari society. The disconnect between pre-TonyG PF and post-TEA pf in regards to Caldari life is so large it's like the faction was completely rethought.
Don't you think, that it is rather Tony's idiocy than Heth's? :lol:
That's the dichotomy of being caldari, I guess....
Why should it be a dichotomy of being caldari, but not just different peoples in Caldari society, eh?
Maybe it's just me talking about honorable peoples, whom no alive left... (because they all killed themselves) :lol:
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This thread and the spin-off thread... :bash:
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And the view of the "regular Caldari citizen" is irrelevant. The Caldari are not a democracy. The Caldari are a corporate plutocracy where the shareholders entrust the leadership of the corporations with the guidance of public policy; the State is demonstrably worse off now than it was ten years ago.
Oh, I cannot agree with first part of it, unfortunately.
Because it is our characters, who are rather regular (or more like former regular) citizens, excluding selected few, who are like "former top commanders of blablabla mighties ceo blablabla first and prettiest wife of his maj... whatever". And it is their opinion we sound ICly. So it is should be relevant.
And I agree on second part, that the State is not democracy. We (or rather they) do not elect their leaders. They do not choose Heth. And they do not choose to be without Heth.
And I can't agree with last part, since this
http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=06-10-08
(Chronicle: Tomorrow A Dream)
Let me just cite it:
In the span since Heth’s inauguration, however, the turnaround in economic growth has been undeniable. Caldari have more money in their pockets. They are more secure about their retirement. People who under the old system would have found themselves forever excluded from certain positions now reside within those positions. The general feeling, on the streets and in the stations, is that for better or worse something great and grand is underway, that the previous system was ailing and outmoded, and that the New Meritocracy (as it has been dubbed by the press) is a return to form for a great nation shackled too long in the chains of favoritism. Averting their eyes from the darkness all around them, the Caldari people now for the first time in years set their sights on a brighter future.
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That was a month after Heth's "revolution". Change like that does not happen overnight, and there's been nothing to back that up. It's telling, not showing, everything we're shown is that things are in the shitter.
And no one chose Heth, that's exactly right. Which is what makes no fucking sense because the whole idea of the State is that power is decentralized so that one person cannot do exactly what Heth did through his magic mind control powers...and I'm getting angry enough to rip my hair out and throw this computer through my 11th floor window, so I'm going to stop going over the same ground I've gone over ten times before.
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That was a month after Heth's "revolution". Change like that does not happen overnight, and there's been nothing to back that up. It's telling, not showing, everything we're shown is that things are in the shitter.
And no one chose Heth, that's exactly right. Which is what makes no fucking sense because the whole idea of the State is that power is decentralized so that one person cannot do exactly what Heth did through his magic mind control powers...and I'm getting angry enough to rip my hair out and throw this computer through my 11th floor window, so I'm going to stop going over the same ground I've gone over ten times before.
Oh Captain my captain, not your PVP winning I hope! :eek:
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No, my work laptop. :)
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There's no really reason to go nuts because of this.
I have a simple but working idea behind this: take what they give and use it for my benefit 8)
It is really easy to stay loyal to State and Heth together. The idea behind decentralized power allows the State to grow stronger by constantly improving itself in unending conflicts. But when there is an external enemy, decentralized power will lead to defeat and destruction of the State. What strength was accumulated with decentralized power, can be unleashed and applied properly only with centralized power. This is a question of life and death to the State. If a thing cant evolve, it dies, like it happened to Raata empire. You have to react to what is happening outside of the State and not lock on internal State problems.
And Heth... it's not just him, it's the whole board of CEOs after him. This makes me think, that all CEOs wanted the war to happen. So it isn't "idiocy" of just Heth, but rather of whole board of CEOs. Of the whole Caldari society.
Just imagine a bit of caldari enterpreneur warmongering mindset: why we are fighting between ourselves, when we can fight someone else, someone who is outside, and who holds something that belongs to us? :)
Add to this a character who had a grave grudge against gallente before Heth, and you will get a loyal soldier, who will gladly give her life to protect Heth ;)
(oh, and almost forgot: our characters don't read TonyG :P)
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Hey guys, here's a fun thought.
What if the new boss is worse than the old boss? :p
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The problem is that there is no reason to be loyal to Heth, neither IC or OOC. OOC, the guy came out of nowhere, stomped on a bunch of canon upon which the Caldari RP community had built their roleplaying on for years, and generally contradicted everything we'd been told about the State since the game began, purely to start a war in a way that didn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense.
IC, Heth came to power in a way that did not seem to have any merit, and his entire regime seems to make him personally look weak; he's always been dependent on people like Oiritsuu or...the other guy that led the CPD and was assassinated I can't remember his name, and it's obvious he didn't get his position based on his own wealth, so that gives a reason for people to be suspicious of who is really behind his ascent. He risked the safety of the entire State for the sake of grabbing Caldari Prime, something that had been established as something only the most extreme Patriots even cared about anymore. He's stomped on the sovereign rights of the corporate powers.
I agree that it makes no sense that the CEOs supported him if they didn't want war, so they must have wanted the war...except that everything we were told until Heth took power is that none of them were interested in war, even the Patriots, and that's yet another reason them handing their power over to him is baffling. There is a reason why Svetlana has called them out for perpetuating this nonsense.
You also keep pushing this line that the Caldari seem to want to fight someone...this was not what the fiction pushed up until TEA; the Caldari were more afraid of being invaded by someone else than interested in starting wars; they skirmished among each other, but they had established institutions -- the CBT and CEP -- specifically to prevent the outbreak of an all-out corporate war. And war is an extremely expensive prospect when you have to pay for it, which the Caldari megacorporations would surely understand.
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Hey guys, here's a fun thought.
What if the new boss is worse than the old boss? :p
Seriously, why the **** does this keep coming up. Why is it so difficult for people to accept the fact that the Caldari State does not and should not need a singular head of state?! Why do people even keep suggesting this?
If CCP simply replaces Heth with somebody else, then Falcon's work in revitalizing the scene will have been for next to nothing. I seriously doubt he's dumb enough to go against the long popular sentiment that Heth is an aberration in Caldari society and the whole concept of him needs to be trashed.
I believe in CCP Falcon, because before he was Falcon, he was my friend. He understood my concerns, and he agreed with them. He was one of us, a regular player, not so long ago. I can trust nobody else in CCP more than Falcon to not just give us another dictator trope.
Bittervets who love to hate CCP can take that bolded paragraph and learn it well... because I doubt Falcon will make me eat those words.
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Friends fall away, lovers betray, but CCP screwing the RPers is forever. :P
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It might not need or want one, but it might not have much choice in the matter.
There are always greater things at play. I find Heth's rise to power as suspicious as I found Jamyl's death - and if you'll recall, that event led to some rather accurate... prophecies on my part. Were I a guessing man, I'd call the Broker as much a puppet as Heth - not the puppetmaster at all, just as Istvaan Shogaatsu is himself but a puppet to far greater, far more hidden powers, merely playing the role of puppetmaster.
We are all proxies of proxies of proxies. So is every actor in this game. Plots within plots.
I'm being intentionally vague in case my guesses are accurate, as they always fucking turn out to be. I've played prophet long enough to prove I'm good at it. This time, I prefer to be genuinely surprised. The story of Eve is not as fun when I can predict where it will go :p
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Isn't the Broker dead?
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Isn't the Broker dead?
The Broker would only be dead if we liked the character.
I think one of the problems CCP has is that it conflates villains we love to hate with characters we hate.
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Good question. Is the Broker dead? He couldn't clone... but then, we live in an universe where at least one other person is known to have uploaded their consciousness to a computer... ;)
And hey, isn't our galaxy positively infested with living computers? :D
I can't stop seeing these inter-relations... they just jump right out at me.
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I think everyone here needs a Rorschach test. :D
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Isn't the Broker dead?
naniiiiites
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Isn't the Broker dead?
The Broker would only be dead if we liked the character.
:roll:
I think I prefer the current generation that I see of Caldari RPers, rather than the lamenting ones encapsulated by yourself and Svetlana Scarlet.
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Isn't the Broker dead?
The Broker would only be dead if we liked the character.
:roll:
I think I prefer the current generation that I see of Caldari RPers, rather than the lamenting ones encapsulated by yourself and Svetlana Scarlet.
We didn't start out bitter and paranoid.
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Quick question, and I'm possibly speaking from ignorance, but since when has Jacus Roden been awesome? I was under the impression that a number of Gallente RPers hated the slime ball.
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Quick question, and I'm possibly speaking from ignorance, but since when has Jacus Roden been awesome? I was under the impression that a number of Gallente RPers hated the slime ball.
Yes, some do. OTOH, he's miles away higher in popularity than the previous one, from what I've been able to tell.
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I think I prefer the current generation that I see of Caldari RPers, rather than the lamenting ones encapsulated by yourself and Svetlana Scarlet.
Man, fuck you too. How many of those RPers have written umpteen thousand words on Caldari culture, history, society, government, etc, etc over the course of seven plus years? I think I've earned the right to feel a little bitter about repeated retcons and a storyline that has slowly drained everything that originally appealed to me about the Caldari from the State over the course of five years.
Yes, I'm a little possessive about the Caldari. Yes, I realize CCP can do whatever they want with them. No, that doesn't mean I have to like it when they turn the Caldari from an interesting society that is vastly different from anything else in the cluster into a fascist parody.
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Seriously, why the **** does this keep coming up. Why is it so difficult for people to accept the fact that the Caldari State does not and should not need a singular head of state?! Why do people even keep suggesting this?
Really, why, but why the State has to be ruled by "multiple heads"? Theoretically, multiple head scenario gives slower, but more balanced and wise decisions, while singular head gives quick, but not optimal decisions. For fast pacing and eventful scenarios the later still is better, because fast reaction is crucial for surviving in changing environment. That's why there is no democracy in military ranks. That's why you are put under tribunal for not following order, even it wasn't the best and optimal solution.
So tell me, why, i won't be afraid to say, the most progressive society, should cling to tradition if it endangers survival?
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Yes, some do. OTOH, he's miles away higher in popularity than the previous one, from what I've been able to tell.
It's funny, because I have had the opposite impression. I've had a little to do with Federal RP (not with this character) and I can't name many pro-Roden Federal RPers. With the exception of Alain Octirant/Hans Nardieu and maybe James Syagrius, I can't think of many Roden fans out there. I seem to remember more people wishing wistfully for the days of Souro Foiritan or even wishing for Mentas Blaque (god knows why).
I might be wrong.
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Isn't the Broker dead?
The Broker would only be dead if we liked the character.
I think one of the problems CCP has is that it conflates villains we love to hate with characters we hate.
Vikarion, seriously, you need to take your bitter and bury some of it. I don't agree with the way Vincent portrayed his examples (from a Cadlari-IC viewpoint as opposed to OOC-unbiased) but he has a point. To begin with CCP don't only bitch on the State, or the Fed, or the Empire or anyone, everyone get their rounds, and that's a fact many of us lament. Also, CCP has not made any indication that all they ever wish to do is screw the RP'ers over.
Calm down, remove those sot-covered sunglasses and relax a little. It's not nearly as pitch-black as you see it.
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I don't agree with the way Vincent portrayed his examples (from a Cadlari-IC viewpoint as opposed to OOC-unbiased) but he has a point.
I really fucking hate it when dudes try to put words in my mouth.
My observations were purely OOC, outside of both RP blocs. There was nothing 'IC' about them. It was me looking at the situation objectively as a non-participant.
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Vikarion, seriously, you need to take your bitter and bury some of it. I don't agree with the way Vincent portrayed his examples (from a Cadlari-IC viewpoint as opposed to OOC-unbiased) but he has a point. To begin with CCP don't only bitch on the State, or the Fed, or the Empire or anyone, everyone get their rounds, and that's a fact many of us lament. Also, CCP has not made any indication that all they ever wish to do is screw the RP'ers over.
Calm down, remove those sot-covered sunglasses and relax a little. It's not nearly as pitch-black as you see it.
Bitterness is fun. ;)
Also, pessimism and poor expectations tend to be much more accurate predictors of the world than hopefulness and optimism. As I consider it, we are all born with one sure truth in our lives, and that is that said life is going to end, almost certainly with a lot of pain. And there's going to be a lot of pain in between, with your own biological systems motivating you to avoid death primarily through fear and pain.
So, you know, expecting that CCP is going to add to that pain is pretty much the safe bet. And they'll probably do it to everyone. But I only have any interest at all (and it is waning) in the Caldari - and if I'd been smart, I wouldn't have jumped into that. Character-driven RP, like Cia and others engage in, gives much less opportunity for others to screw you, I think. Unfortunately, I was stupid and got interested in the faction. This has not and will not be repeated in the future with other fictional settings, as CCP has taught me an excellent lesson about becoming invested emotionally in a fictional setting.
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Instead of living to predictions or expectations, either pessimistic or optimistic, it is much better to live here and now! With what we have, and deal with it!
It will change when it will change, and then we will think how to play about it, but now it didnt happen, and we can't be sure if it actually will or won't happen!
It is equally bad to live in past and in future.
But the present is all yours, so use it at full extent!
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Bitterness is fun. ;)
I'm getting a little distressed by this sort of common perspective among gamers in general and roleplayers specifically. It seems that more and more often that a player, who has no real authority in design or decision making in a game, feels that changes to the game that do not mesh well with their own perception of the game consider it some sort of personal attempt by the actual creators of the game setting to ruin their day, personally.
CCP and every other developer are not setting out to screw you. You signed up for the potential to screw yourself. For every change and development in the game's storyline you are presented with a myriad of choices that boil down to two overarching paths. You can either embrace the change and work with it, incorporating and building upon it for your personal roleplay. Or you can hit it in the face with a shovel, rant and rail against it and embrace your opposition to the change as part of your personal roleplay.
You get to make your story in EVE.
You do not get to make EVE's story.
CCP gets to make EVE's story.
CCP does not get to make your story in EVE.
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^ this.
Because it is their game, and they are masters. Whatever you try, whatever you do, in the end the gazebo will kill you.
So, just play their game, enjoy their game.
And try not to awaken gazebos :lol:
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I never knew large, open canvas structures could be so dangerous. Vigilance is our sword and shield!
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Hey guys, here's a fun thought.
What if the new boss is worse than the old boss? :p
First thought at this post: "Istvaan Shogaatsu, Executor of the Caldari State". Admittedly, this would probably be a different meaning of "bad".
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I have never been happy with the portrayal of the Mandate, and even less since TEA, I have never been happy with the portrayal of CONCORD, and even less since TEA.
I am not bitching all the time about it. It brings different opportunities, even if lore wise it's not the best looking option.
A lot of Caldari RPers should relax these days. Seriously, it's palatable ICly too, and very hostile as an OOC atmosphere.
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Really, why, but why the State has to be ruled by "multiple heads"? Theoretically, multiple head scenario gives slower, but more balanced and wise decisions, while singular head gives quick, but not optimal decisions. For fast pacing and eventful scenarios the later still is better, because fast reaction is crucial for surviving in changing environment. That's why there is no democracy in military ranks. That's why you are put under tribunal for not following order, even it wasn't the best and optimal solution.
So tell me, why, i won't be afraid to say, the most progressive society, should cling to tradition if it endangers survival?
Because a mix of the two systems, ie a small group of supposedly intelligent, meritorious leaders can come to a reasonable rapid solution at the strategic level.
Sometimes the best way to ensure survival is to actually slow down in a fast pace/eventful scenario if at all possible. I know that is counter to the scenario, but in a fast pace, event-filled scenario, random action can be worse than no action and deliberate thought-through action can have a huge impact.
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Instead of living to predictions or expectations, either pessimistic or optimistic, it is much better to live here and now! With what we have, and deal with it!
It will change when it will change, and then we will think how to play about it, but now it didnt happen, and we can't be sure if it actually will or won't happen!
It is equally bad to live in past and in future.
But the present is all yours, so use it at full extent!
I don't agree. Everything we do in our modern lives relies, in some part, upon predictions. "I'm going to buy groceries tomorrow" is a claim made upon the prediction that a truly incredible number of people will perform their particular jobs well enough to keep a store open, stocked, and ready. It's also a prediction that you won't get horribly sick, that you'll have transportation, that no natural disasters will strike, etc. We do live in the future, in fact, the ability to try to live in the future is probably what has given us our advantage, from a natural selection point of view.
Similarly, we can't help but live in the past, because the past is what has made things the way they are, and is probably the best predictor we have of the future. If seeds planted grew into crops last year, they'll probably do it this year, and etc.
In fact, discussions about the past and potential future are most of what we talk about as humans. So I find it difficult to imagine how you could "live in the present" without an eye to both past and future.
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I'm getting a little distressed by this sort of common perspective among gamers in general and roleplayers specifically. It seems that more and more often that a player, who has no real authority in design or decision making in a game, feels that changes to the game that do not mesh well with their own perception of the game consider it some sort of personal attempt by the actual creators of the game setting to ruin their day, personally.
CCP and every other developer are not setting out to screw you. You signed up for the potential to screw yourself. For every change and development in the game's storyline you are presented with a myriad of choices that boil down to two overarching paths. You can either embrace the change and work with it, incorporating and building upon it for your personal roleplay. Or you can hit it in the face with a shovel, rant and rail against it and embrace your opposition to the change as part of your personal roleplay.
You get to make your story in EVE.
You do not get to make EVE's story.
CCP gets to make EVE's story.
CCP does not get to make your story in EVE.
Do I think it that CCP makes personal attempts to ruin player's gameplay? Well, yes. A company which makes a game designed around the ideas of griefing, robbery, theft, and violence probably does occasionally indulge in some griefing themselves. That's just the nature of the beast. I certainly couldn't say that they are doing so right now, but some previous events did seem pretty close to that.
And yes, signing on to a faction is essentially signing up to be screwed over. However, I think you are confusing the fact that that happens with the idea that one should accept that that happens, no matter how it happens. In general, when we accept the specific fictional guidelines of a universe (say, that the Amarr Empire operates a certain way, that there are no magic powers, etc), it's probably reasonable to expect that Magic Psychic Zombie Space Princesses with Superweapons won't get pulled out, just as it is also reasonable to assume that CCP won't decide tomorrow that all capsuleers are ponies from the MLP universe.
CCP certainly has the right to do whatever they want with their product, just as you have the right to pour maple syrup on your head and lie on an anthill. But that doesn't mean that others are required to think that it's a good idea and not complain. In this case, to extend the analogy, quite a few Caldari RPers spent quite a bit of time styling the hair and making it look better, while still along the lines of what CCP had created.
The problem with embracing Eve's story is that CCP has been busily creating more and more disconnects between what was, and what is. This means that those who invested in the RP scene back then now have to decide whether to ret-con and adjust their characters (hey! actually, we love dictatorships after all!), find something else to RP with (and how long until CCP blunders through that?) or toss out RP altogether (screw you guys, I'm going home).
So no, it's not as simple as "adapt, and HTFU". CCP has shown no respect for the fictional setting it started out with, and now older players have to figure out how to, essentially, be horrible writers who don't care about continuity, characterization, or realism.
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Really, why, but why the State has to be ruled by "multiple heads"? Theoretically, multiple head scenario gives slower, but more balanced and wise decisions, while singular head gives quick, but not optimal decisions. For fast pacing and eventful scenarios the later still is better, because fast reaction is crucial for surviving in changing environment. That's why there is no democracy in military ranks. That's why you are put under tribunal for not following order, even it wasn't the best and optimal solution.
So tell me, why, i won't be afraid to say, the most progressive society, should cling to tradition if it endangers survival?
Because a mix of the two systems, ie a small group of supposedly intelligent, meritorious leaders can come to a reasonable rapid solution at the strategic level.
Sometimes the best way to ensure survival is to actually slow down in a fast pace/eventful scenario if at all possible. I know that is counter to the scenario, but in a fast pace, event-filled scenario, random action can be worse than no action and deliberate thought-through action can have a huge impact.
This is not exactly a type of discussion I wanted to have. I don't want to make choice and argue about what is better between these two forms. I just made a simple attempt to diminish significance of decentralized management. I would do counterwise if it was said, that Caldari State must to have a single ruler.
I would rather ask the main question again,
but why the State has to be ruled by "multiple heads"?
This is a very minor concept, and I really don't see why it should be important. Having one or multiple heads is not the idea that defines Caldari. It doesn't define the State, nor society, nor either of existing races, countries, cultures or nationalities in our world. You don't gonna say something like: "Hello, Im Jane Smith and Im ruled by decentralized government." There are many others concepts, that are greater and way more significant, there are loyalty and treachery, honor and infamy, greediness and generosity, devotion and liberty, cold calculations and emotions, hatred and love.
There are too many artificial, hand-made minor concepts, that some people bring as ultimate truths. Because of these insignificant concepts many lives throughout human history have been lost. And I beg you not to bring them at least here, and lets better concentrate on something that is really important. If we have to define Caldari, we need to discuss mentality, culture, beliefs and characters, but not such things as being ruled by one man or many.
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This is a very minor concept, and I really don't see why it should be important. Having one or multiple heads is not the idea that defines Caldari.
Except that it does -- or rather, it is a symptom of the Caldari mindset. The inherently suspicious, close-knit social structure that distrusts centralized authority, because it was the thing that nearly destroyed them 300 years ago. The Caldari have a decentralized government because they do not want to be put under anyone's thumb, and because none of the eight megacorporations trusts the others further than they can throw them. That is what was thrown under the bus on a whim by the development of Tibus Heth, where evidently every megacorporate CEO and board member became guillible, weak pawn of a man who they had no reason to be afraid of.
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Instead of living to predictions or expectations, either pessimistic or optimistic, it is much better to live here and now! With what we have, and deal with it!
It will change when it will change, and then we will think how to play about it, but now it didnt happen, and we can't be sure if it actually will or won't happen!
It is equally bad to live in past and in future.
But the present is all yours, so use it at full extent!
I don't agree. Everything we do in our modern lives relies, in some part, upon predictions. "I'm going to buy groceries tomorrow" is a claim made upon the prediction that a truly incredible number of people will perform their particular jobs well enough to keep a store open, stocked, and ready. It's also a prediction that you won't get horribly sick, that you'll have transportation, that no natural disasters will strike, etc. We do live in the future, in fact, the ability to try to live in the future is probably what has given us our advantage, from a natural selection point of view.
Similarly, we can't help but live in the past, because the past is what has made things the way they are, and is probably the best predictor we have of the future. If seeds planted grew into crops last year, they'll probably do it this year, and etc.
In fact, discussions about the past and potential future are most of what we talk about as humans. So I find it difficult to imagine how you could "live in the present" without an eye to both past and future.
Oh no no, I didnt mean you should ignore past and future. Of course you have to look in both sides. Learn from the past and plan for the future. What I did mean, is that you shouldnt devote your whole life to the past or future. Everything around us evolves, and we have to accept it as it is now, and not as it was before. We have to accept it as it is now, and not as it is expected to be in future. Because the life is the greatest Gift, that time gives to us, and every moment is unique, so enjoy it now, and then it will be gone forever and nothing will ever bring it back.
Shall you live by the past or look only to future, you will miss the life itself, everything that surrounds you, it will pass by, leaving only phantoms and emptiness behind.
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This is a very minor concept, and I really don't see why it should be important. Having one or multiple heads is not the idea that defines Caldari.
Except that it does -- or rather, it is a symptom of the Caldari mindset. The inherently suspicious, close-knit social structure that distrusts centralized authority, because it was the thing that nearly destroyed them 300 years ago. The Caldari have a decentralized government because they do not want to be put under anyone's thumb, and because none of the eight megacorporations trusts the others further than they can throw them.
Such symptoms are peculiar to confined time and space, but they are not universal constants. The society evolves, taking form that it believes to benefit the best. Or just was given a chance to become something new. This is a distinctive trait of a progressive society rather than the one that is stagnating.
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Cultural mindsets do not generally change in the space of a few months. They are generational changes, and there's been no evidence of any such change or reason for such change.
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This is a very minor concept, and I really don't see why it should be important. Having one or multiple heads is not the idea that defines Caldari.
Except that it does -- or rather, it is a symptom of the Caldari mindset. The inherently suspicious, close-knit social structure that distrusts centralized authority, because it was the thing that nearly destroyed them 300 years ago. The Caldari have a decentralized government because they do not want to be put under anyone's thumb, and because none of the eight megacorporations trusts the others further than they can throw them.
Such symptoms are peculiar to confined time and space, but they are not universal constants. The society evolves, taking form that it believes to benefit the best. Or just was given a chance to become something new. This is a distinctive trait of a progressive society rather than the one that is stagnating.
Yeah, I think the problem is that one month it was "Meritocratic Caldari State is fine, fairly good relations with the Fed, economy is running fine", and three months later it was "actually, huge economic recession, the Caldari State is nepotistic, corrupt, and 95% of its citizens live worse than slaves. You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."
I understand that they needed a storyline for FW. But a "story" requires at least some consistency. In three months, the entire nature of the State from previous PF was discarded.
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I think the problem is that one month it was "Meritocratic Caldari State is fine, fairly good relations with the Fed, economy is running fine", and three months later it was "actually, huge economic recession, the Caldari State is nepotistic, corrupt, and 95% of its citizens live worse than slaves. You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."
I understand that they needed a storyline for FW. But a "story" requires at least some consistency. In three months, the entire nature of the State from previous PF was discarded.
Yeah, this was really the crux of the problem. So then how do you fix it?
Because that's really the problem here: the angst. It would be better to be constructive and suggest some outs. Arguing the past doesn't help anyone, including CCP itself.
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I think there might be a tendency to romanticize meritocracy in the State. It's an important principle yes, but in practice it wasn't unsurprising that Heth came to power because corruption and abuses of power by those in power in the State was made possible in a relatively closed society where it's difficult to remove the Elites who game the system because there aren't any independent institutions to make them accountable or a free media to uncover it. The people are kept silent because if you blow the whistle you either lose your job or get the tanks to crush any protests you might have.
The irony is that while Heth and the CPD might have enjoyed popular support by promising to overturn the system, the amount of centralization of authority he's sought to, "Combat corporate corruption" has just meant that the most corrupt officials have supported him, because it's usually in a tyranny or dictatorship where they're even less accountable to the people - all they have to do is repeat the slogans required of them.
The driver might have changed but the power structures and bureaucracy in most of the Megas aside from Ishukone it seems have not.
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This is a very minor concept, and I really don't see why it should be important. Having one or multiple heads is not the idea that defines Caldari.
Except that it does -- or rather, it is a symptom of the Caldari mindset. The inherently suspicious, close-knit social structure that distrusts centralized authority, because it was the thing that nearly destroyed them 300 years ago. The Caldari have a decentralized government because they do not want to be put under anyone's thumb, and because none of the eight megacorporations trusts the others further than they can throw them.
Such symptoms are peculiar to confined time and space, but they are not universal constants. The society evolves, taking form that it believes to benefit the best. Or just was given a chance to become something new. This is a distinctive trait of a progressive society rather than the one that is stagnating.
Yeah, I think the problem is that one month it was "Meritocratic Caldari State is fine, fairly good relations with the Fed, economy is running fine", and three months later it was "actually, huge economic recession, the Caldari State is nepotistic, corrupt, and 95% of its citizens live worse than slaves. You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."
I understand that they needed a storyline for FW. But a "story" requires at least some consistency. In three months, the entire nature of the State from previous PF was discarded.
+1 Even If Im not effected by by this change, as I had join the game later. But I get our point.
I always saw EVE like Chess. Chess is a strategy board game* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess), for me EVE was a strategy game as well; just with internet spaceships. As like Chess you have of course you rules. Like, that the rook moves horizontally or vertically; or in EVE that Tech-I sub-capital-ships need to use gates etc..... You have like Abraxes ones mention (to lazy to search for the link): "THE MECHANIC". Those mechanic (the rules in chess) and the ships (the pieces in chess) are a key part of the game and its enjoyment.
But some are forgetting the board itself, with its 32 "light" and 32 "dark" fields; or in TonyG terms: 32 "good" and 32 "evil" fields. Nevertheless you have a "base", and the base is the chessboard. All possible moves and strategies are around this fact, that you have 64 fields. If take my half-ass metaphor further, Im not that far away of saying, that the lore of EVE = the Chessboard. So any change in this board has of course a effect on the past (1), present (2) and future (3) moves and strategies. So I totally get Vikarion position, that those changes can fuck up your past roleplay (1) (like RPgames with friends which were around the fact that the Khanid Kingdom was and is independent), or your present roleplay (2). If CCP changes a fact that field A8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chessboard) isnt light anymore, but dark; you Sir are then, if you are in this position, of course fuck up. So, present changes can also fuck up your present roleplay. What is with the future? Of course, thru this changes of the facts: You will be also fuck up for further rolepaly (3).
The question is now (which I havent ask you Vikarion on the official forum. I just asked, what positive thingy you like to see flesh out): Do you have still the energy, to act, to adjust and to swallow those board changes?
If the answer is yes. You sir arent a bitter-vet. When you still have the energy to RP? Still? You arent a bitter-vet and nobody should call you that :).
As for me. I would answer with no. So Im bitter, but not a vet. So Im a bitter-newcomer :P.
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But some are forgetting the board itself, with its 32 "light" and 32 "dark" fields; or in TonyG terms: 32 "good" and 32 "evil" fields.
Heh, I love that.
Obviously, I'm still willing to do something, or I wouldn't be here, and wouldn't have participated in (and rallied, and local-FCed) the last live event in the Caldari State. On the other hand, I've seen people try to help CCP before, only to get abandoned or kicked in the balls. So my participation is limited, because I'm not going to give CCP the chance to do what they inevitably end up trying to do to Caldari (and, often, Amarrian) RPers: put them in a situation where they have to be truly evil (and stupid-evil at that) or abandon their faction.
For example, we have the recent reports of Federal death squads operating in Black Rise. I could post about this, make a big deal about it, but then, based on prior behavior, it's highly likely that we'll find out that these death squads are actually Caldari. Then I'm in the position of looking like an utter idiot (which has happened enough to me already, thanks), or I have to back their necessity, in which case I'm a Nazi (I being my character, here). So, doing nothing is both the safest and wisest choice.
And doing nothing to interact with the storyline has become the safest and wisest choice for most Caldari groups and roleplayers. If you do not make yourself vulnerable to these events, if you don't interact with the story except to (barely) comment on the summit or IGS, if you don't actually do anything or start anything, then CCP is radically limited in its efforts to wreck your RP, whether those efforts are intentional or not.
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Cultural mindsets do not generally change in the space of a few months. They are generational changes, and there's been no evidence of any such change or reason for such change.
Don't you think then that 300 years is a bit more than a generation, eh?
You have dictator now, because necessary. Also, have war with Federation. P.S. - you are space nazis now."
Well, I think it is a bit controversial who are more space nazis now, Caldari or Gallente.
I don't think that describing the State now as evil is a correct thing to do. The war that is going on, is simply for Caldari to take what they belive is rightfully theirs, war is waged over a limited number of disputed system and in general Caldari do not plan to seize all the power or to crush Fed completely (well, with exception of some individuals (teehehehehe) who would like to see Federation burning and turning to ashes because of personal or other reasons). There are no good and bad sides. Everyone is fighting for their interests.
Yeah, this was really the crux of the problem. So then how do you fix it?
Because that's really the problem here: the angst. It would be better to be constructive and suggest some outs. Arguing the past doesn't help anyone, including CCP itself.
Well, you can either accept it and stay loyal Caldari, or rebel against CCP and canon, becoming one of numerous "traitors", who are outcast of current depicted Caldari society, clinging on now discarded Caldari "past", and whose numbers are growing like mushrooms after a rain (which I believe is an ill tendency)
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But some are forgetting the board itself, with its 32 "light" and 32 "dark" fields; or in TonyG terms: 32 "good" and 32 "evil" fields.
Heh, I love that.
Obviously, I'm still willing to do something, or I wouldn't be here, and wouldn't have participated in (and rallied, and local-FCed) the last live event in the Caldari State. On the other hand, I've seen people try to help CCP before, only to get abandoned or kicked in the balls. So my participation is limited, because I'm not going to give CCP the chance to do what they inevitably end up trying to do to Caldari (and, often, Amarrian) RPers: put them in a situation where they have to be truly evil (and stupid-evil at that) or abandon their faction.
For example, we have the recent reports of Federal death squads operating in Black Rise. I could post about this, make a big deal about it, but then, based on prior behavior, it's highly likely that we'll find out that these death squads are actually Caldari. Then I'm in the position of looking like an utter idiot (which has happened enough to me already, thanks), or I have to back their necessity, in which case I'm a Nazi (I being my character, here). So, doing nothing is both the safest and wisest choice.
And doing nothing to interact with the storyline has become the safest and wisest choice for most Caldari groups and roleplayers. If you do not make yourself vulnerable to these events, if you don't interact with the story except to comment on the summit or IGS, if you don't actually do anything, then CCP is radically limited in its efforts to wreck your RP, whether those efforts are intentional or not.
:( :( :( :( :( :(
True, but as I said it is really not your fault. I mean we they change the field... IT ISNT YOUR FAULT. So sadly, I can feel with you. And I think many others too. I remember a AJ-Member which had made some freaking awesome sleeper theories on the wiki page*. The last thing which I have heared from him, was a post on this board, that he is leaving because of the lore changes in T1 :(Sadly I cant find the topic). And I know, making the "Gallente evil" (see some of the newer news), doesnt change or problems; because "gallente evil", doesnt mean that the past fuck up arent there anymore**. So you are in a fuck up postion. Sadly I cant say something to pump you up.
*Of course Faulx and Mowens pages... and the many other pages, were also nice AJ reads.....
**"Gallente Evil"="Caldari arent space-nazi anymore" is a function which doesnt work. or In other words.... one has nothing to do with the other, and cant fix the previous problems.
Edit: fix typo
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Don't you think then that 300 years is a bit more than a generation, eh?
Except that as Vikarion so eloquently stated, this was the case up until about 3 months before TEA came out, and then it got changed overnight because that's not what Tony felt like writing about, I guess.
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It appears the comments made in this thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=180146&p=1) were acted upon. CCP Falcon mentioned this being discussed in Jan (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2450623#post2450623).
So, a few of us voiced concern over this whole event and how it might occur months before it happened.
Yeah, this was really the crux of the problem. So then how do you fix it?
Because that's really the problem here: the angst. It would be better to be constructive and suggest some outs. Arguing the past doesn't help anyone, including CCP itself.
Well, you can either accept it and stay loyal Caldari, or rebel against CCP and canon, becoming one of numerous "traitors", who are outcast of current depicted Caldari society, clinging on now discarded Caldari "past", and whose numbers are growing like mushrooms after a rain (which I believe is an ill tendency)
WTF is a loyal Caldari (or Amarr, Minmatar, or Gallente for that matter)?
I play a character who has remained loyal to Lai Dai for more than 5 years. The move to 4TH was couched as a loyal move, having supported the early Ichoriya/Black Rise market and helped mature it. Besides LD needed to put something out of SuVee's reach.
Anyone who delves into the Caldari background much quickly finds there is no such thing as a Caldari-loyalist.
Then I'm in the position of looking like an utter idiot (which has happened enough to me already, thanks), or I have to back their necessity, in which case I'm a Nazi (I being my character, here). So, doing nothing is both the safest and wisest choice.
When we were left with scant details to understand what the power of the Executor & CPD were I argued that Heth's power was less than it was portrayed by others. Only within the past few months has the breadth of Heth's powers been made readily apparent after nearly 4 years of neglect that left the story open to interpretation, especially given the scant news available.
I effectively get TEA twice, because I didn't buy into the Heth as supreme dictator line. I followed the Lai Dai CEO/Board of Directors and they had a voice via the CEP, all of which continued to exist while Heth was KK-Ytiri-Caldari Constructions CEO and the CPD an organization similar to the Heiian Society - as in not registered with CONCORD.
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The Caldari already have the "Most Nazi Like" merit badge, Lithium. The State burned Gallente books. There is so much for me to catch up on this thread but let me just say that I stand behind Svetlanna on her stance in this matter. The Hethian segment of fluff in an abomination and should be treated as such. As for a lot of the bellyaching about "take it or leave it" for the fluff I refuse those choices. Rather change it any (RL legal) way you can. For example, Gorion would kill Heth if given the chance. I refuse to accept that this is the best the State has to offer in the leadership department and it should be changed. If that means a bullet to the head their Gary-Stu, so be it.
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WTF is a loyal Caldari (or Amarr, Minmatar, or Gallente for that matter)?
Being a loyal means giving your full support to your nation and national politics, disregarding how good or bad it looks, because you have in first place a duty or oath to follow, or simple love to your kin, or maybe something wicked like love to your leader :lol:
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The Caldari already have the "Most Nazi Like" merit badge, Lithium. The State burned Gallente books.
Unfortunately, this is very one-sided look at the problem, because this national hatred is mutual. It is not only Caldari who hates Gallente, but also Gallente who hate Caldari as well, just look up chronicle "Taught Thoughts".
It is not enough to be a nazi by having a hatred to particular nation, or general xenophobia. It implies putting your nation above everyone else, declaring that all other nations (not only a rival one) are minor and should be subjugated. I have to say, that I often play this "nazi" card by bringing up topics of national superiority, but I do it more like to annoy opponents, and represent character's personal views rather than racial trait.
Besides, I am ardent fighter against generalization of characters. In the first place they are peoples and motivated by their education, upbringing and personal experience, rather than simply being a Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar or Gallente. So, when my character brings in nazi views, it means it has to do with certain event in character's past, rather than being part of likeminded creatures.
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Besides, I am ardent fighter against generalization of characters.
This is exactly why almost all of the old guard are upset. They took an interesting corporate pseudofacsist meritocracy and dumbed it down to might as well be Nazis IN SPAAAAAACE!
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*sigh* The Caldari were many things, but they were never fascist. Fascist implies the supremacy of the state, when the Caldari were the exact opposite -- they barely had a state to begin with. They were a corporate plutocracy.
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Yeah that.
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In other news.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=217455
The GM Team would like to make it known that due to events that will be occurring in the system of Luminaire over the weekend, ships or capsules destroyed between downtime on Friday, March 22nd (11:00 UTC on 22/03/2013), and Downtime on Saturday March 23rd (11:00 UTC on 23/03/2013) will not be eligible for reimbursement.
Players who do not wish to be at risk of in game loss due to ongoing hostilities in the Luminaire solar system should be sure to add this system to their autopilot avoidance list and ensure they stay well clear of Luminaire over the course of the weekend. Ship or capsule losses between downtime on Friday, March 22nd (11:00 UTC on 22/03/2013), and Downtime on Saturday March 23rd (11:00 UTC on 23/03/2013) will not be eligible for reimbursement due to the ongoing conflict between the Gallente Federation and the Caldari State.
Very interesting.
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[mod]This discussion can now be sensibly continued here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4429.0) in an on-topic manner. [/mod]