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[Creep]

We know that the Amarr (well, the orthodox ones) have issues with cloning due to the loss of the soul at death. The Intaki, on the other hand, believe in rebirth, usually coming in the form of a newborn infant (though I gather that only some Intaki are reborn and that this is as a result of great wisdom or purity or something like that).
Are Intaki capsuleers being reborn into clones? Would a Reborn Intaki be bypassing the rebirthing process altogether, making their 'rebirths' illegitimate? Are their clones merely an extension of their current lives, and they could only experience rebirth if they cancel their clone contracts and die, thus being reborn anew like the rest of the people?

I know we have a bunch of Intaki RPers here, so I'd love to know how this is handled in RP.

[Lyn Farel]

I am absolutely not sure since i'm no expert on Intaki lore, but their spirituality has always seemed pretty gritty to me. Don't they "force" old souls into newborns or something like that ?

[Andreus Ixiris]

I've gotten the impression that like most matters that don't directly concern them, the Intaki just Don't Give A Fuck.

[Natalcya Katla]

I am absolutely not sure since i'm no expert on Intaki lore, but their spirituality has always seemed pretty gritty to me. Don't they "force" old souls into newborns or something like that ?

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I seem to recall it involves a process similar to cloning, but don't quote me on it.

[Ché Biko]

This is what Vremaja Idama had to say on this subject:

One core tenet is that all things are in a cycle. Death leads to rebirth. A solution only leads to more problems. We know that the "soul" or "spirit" is eternal and will be reborn many times to learn new lessons, and once it fully understands the cycle it may finally move on. The Reborn are an important part of this. These were people who had reached a level of understanding that they may choose to be liberated, but choose to remain and teach others. In earlier times there were many tests and rituals to ensure that a soul had indeed been reborn, and through mental discipline and training these Reborn were able to continue their life work over many lifetimes. These rare people were given the title of Idama.
In modern times, with the assistance of technology, the rebirth process has been made more certain. In fact many of the techniques and experiences of the Reborn have assisted the development and perfection of psyche restoration and cloning. But even today the status of Idama is still reserved for those who have been reborn without assistance.

Source: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Intaki#Ida_-_The_Intaki_Faith

[Bataav]

Che has pretty much identified one of the few, if not only examples of canon that deals with the Intaki Reborn.

In terms of the fate of the newborn involved in the rituals, as far as I know nothing has ever been confirmed or denied. A Reborn soul ends up in a newborn baby, so where'd the baby soul go? Of course we are assuming here that the Reborn soul takes up residence in a recently born baby, and is not simply reincarnated in the way that we might believe reincarnation happens today IRL.

As an Intaki RPer (though not Reborn) my take on cloning is that in a way yes, it is a form of being reborn in literal terms and so is not restricted to Intaki capsuleers (and now DUST mercs too). It's a way to cheat death, made possible by technology.

For those Intaki (and other converts?) who follow Ida, cloning would be a very different thing to classic Rebirth with none of the spirituality involved.

[GoGo Yubari]

Following that Idama link might lead to the information, but it is noteworthy that many Reborn have switched over to using cloning instead of the old techniques (because it is easier and simpler). So I think it is fair to say that generally cloning is very well regarded among Intaki and indeed, because Intaki spiritual techniques have influenced its development, they might in fact consider it a form of their native culture which has grown to permeate the entirety of capsuleer culture.

[Andreus Ixiris]

You know, when you put it that way, that actually makes the Intaki a lot more cunning than most people give them credit for. If what you say is true, they're spreading their culture with such incredible subtlety that barely anyone even thinks they're doing it.

[Bataav]

I've actually wondered for some time whether, in the dark ages following the collapse of the EVE Gate and the decline of the original colonies, some archaic version of early cloning technology survived on a particular planet.

Generations later, people made use of this tech, having no understanding of the science behind it, the process was incorporated into theological philosophy and into a particular mysticism. After all, to those experiencing science beyond their comprehension, to cheat death must have felt beyond spiritual.

Without clones into which they could be reborn they could have turned to the next best thing - a newborn baby.

As there's very little known about the process of Rebirth in Ida, there's nothing to say some form of "spiritual paraphanalia" that is actually ancient tech isn't involved.

In terms of cloning as capsuleers know it, from what I could find on the EVElopedia it looks like clones were first made available by the good old Jove through Genolution, though the main article on cloning itself focusses on an ambitious corporation in the Federation - Cromeaux Inc., just one of a number of corporations in the market, from each of the four major empires.

[Ciarente]

In terms of the fate of the newborn involved in the rituals, as far as I know nothing has ever been confirmed or denied. A Reborn soul ends up in a newborn baby, so where'd the baby soul go? Of course we are assuming here that the Reborn soul takes up residence in a recently born baby, and is not simply reincarnated in the way that we might believe reincarnation happens today IRL.

And of course it's what the Intaki believe is happening, which doesn't mean it *is* happening.

The world Cia comes from has a whole bunch of complicated beliefs around reincarnation, that Cia shares - but I try to be very careful when Rping them/writing about them to leave room for a skeptics interpretation.

[Morwen Lagann]

I've worked with the impression that it was less one soul replacing or pushing out another, but one (or more) being added to the mixture, allowing for the experiences and perspectives of the new soul to affect and teach the older ones (and vice versa) as the person lives their life, resulting in a single entity (with the experiences and memories of several) over the years.

I've also gone with the assumption that it requires training to be able to sort all of these things out in your head and to be able to make use of them. Every body (space intentional) is different, and so one has to go through the training each time in order to 'unlock' controlled access to those other minds and lives.

I've actually been playing around with this with Morwen for the last year or so, but only a few people actually know that's what's going on IC - Ava, Eva (Punx), Reppy, Sakaane, maybe Bataav (depending on some unfinished RP) and Mammal (still need to do that RP), for starters.

If people have noticed her having sudden, unexplained mood swings or demeanor/personality shifts over the last year or so, there's more to it than meets the eye - she only recently got instruction on how to make use of this part of her life, so now these shifts are often (but not always) deliberate and purposeful. In the past those shifts have been very involuntary and very unsettling/irritating to her, precisely because they weren't under her control and often happened in times and places that they were anything but helpful.

[Louella Dougans]

I seem to remember some Gallente persons saying things like "baby-murdering savages" and such, regarding the Intaki

[Lyn Farel]

Explains a lot of things, like why people do not really care about zombie-Jamyl either...

[Utsukushi Shi]

It seems like there are many different ways you could go with this. I have wondered about this since I started EVE as my first character was Intaki. I had been operating under the assumption it was a Dalai Lama sort of thing. One person dies, the monk dudes go out and find what child they believe to be the reincarnation. The use of cloning seems to suggest all sorts of strange and nefarious things however it might be as simple as them taking a sample of the Idama's genetic material and using it to create an embryo and then implanting it in a willing mother.

Whether or not the clone is in fact carrying the memories and experience of the original is as subjective as in the Dalai Lama example.

This being said it would be totally cool if there was some horrid dark secrets going on involving bizarre mind to mind cybertech or direct brain transplantation or whatever.

[hellgremlin]

Old souls. Now, I wonder why CCP would add something like that in their storyline.

Darn that Chekhov's Gun, always introduced in act one, but employed in act three.