Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Saede Riordan on 01 Feb 2014, 03:24
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Tasty, buttery, goodness (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=317547&find=unread)
So lets see. This week, we've:
1 ) Found a cool tactic to kill sleepers, what we've named the 'Ghost Method'
2 ) Asked CCP if it was an exploit, they said it wasn't.
3 ) Applied Ghost Method as our operational standard.
4 ) Been killed by two gangs 10 times our size.
5 ) Made enough ISK for it to mostly not matter.
6 ) Planned an eviction war.
7 ) Found out we had someone leaking mails about 1).
8 ) Asked CCP again if it was an exploit.
9 ) Watched a famous Surely You're Joking solo pvper fly a (bait?) occator through his own bubbles. Twice.
10 ) Had above forum post poasted.
11 ) ???
12 ) Profit
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multiple petitions to the GMs, all with the answer that it was all OK, did not help all those people banned for that moon mining exploit a couple years ago.
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multiple petitions to the GMs, all with the answer that it was all OK, did not help all those people banned for that moon mining exploit a couple years ago.
So the GMs lied?
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multiple petitions to the GMs, all with the answer that it was all OK, did not help all those people banned for that moon mining exploit a couple years ago.
So the GMs lied?
People found an odd behaviour with some moon mining POS.
They petitioned the GMs, and were told it was alright.
They petitioned again, because it still seemed weird, and were told it was alright, again.
So, they continue with their odd POS, and get banned for it later.
Same with that glitch with tracking in that other wormhole, allowing small guns to hit at 200km for wrecking damage. People petitioned, were told it's alright. Get banned for it later.
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multiple petitions to the GMs, all with the answer that it was all OK, did not help all those people banned for that moon mining exploit a couple years ago.
So the GMs lied?
People found an odd behaviour with some moon mining POS.
They petitioned the GMs, and were told it was alright.
They petitioned again, because it still seemed weird, and were told it was alright, again.
So, they continue with their odd POS, and get banned for it later.
Same with that glitch with tracking in that other wormhole, allowing small guns to hit at 200km for wrecking damage. People petitioned, were told it's alright. Get banned for it later.
I'd like to see some citation. If this is so, there would have been forum outcry about the GMs lying. Furthermore, I know the corporation that lived in Nova and took advantage of the Magnetar system effects at the time. Aperture Harmonics is still quite alive and well.
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I've been watching this a while, actually. I'm going to do some official poking tomorrow and see what is up.
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multiple petitions to the GMs, all with the answer that it was all OK, did not help all those people banned for that moon mining exploit a couple years ago.
So the GMs lied?
People found an odd behaviour with some moon mining POS.
They petitioned the GMs, and were told it was alright.
They petitioned again, because it still seemed weird, and were told it was alright, again.
So, they continue with their odd POS, and get banned for it later.
Same with that glitch with tracking in that other wormhole, allowing small guns to hit at 200km for wrecking damage. People petitioned, were told it's alright. Get banned for it later.
I'd like to see some citation. If this is so, there would have been forum outcry about the GMs lying. Furthermore, I know the corporation that lived in Nova and took advantage of the Magnetar system effects at the time. Aperture Harmonics is still quite alive and well.
There was a lot of forum argument, about the moon mineral POS, and the reaction POS. Lots and lots of people arguing about it. It was a big debacle. Particularly, as only some of those who were using POS set up in that manner got bans, while others received no punishment. Big argument about CCP favouritism, as there were claims that many Band of Brothers POS were set up in this way. There was also an argument about the "e's and whizz" corporation and their alliance, it was claimed that's how they were able to provide booster drugs well below anyone else's prices.
And there was a lot of people saying "but we petitioned". Of course, since you're not allowed to share GM correspondence, those posts were quickly edited.
So, historically, it seems to be, that finding an exploit, using it, and encouraging others to use it, after being told by GMs that this is OK, has seldom worked out well for the people using the exploit.
And it's not the GMs lying. The GMs, contrary to popular belief, do not have an omniscient view on what is and what is not supposed to be "intended game mechanics". Neither do the game developers.
Also, your own posts on that thread said that the GMs told you they hadn't ruled it an exploit "yet".
Not that it was "OK to use".
Like I said, people were told such things about other weird situations, and later get bans.
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At the very least, keeping said info could likely have such bans removed, at least from you.
There's a Rooks and Kings video about the whole Magnetar thingy somewhere.
*digs*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrYe_4vHzgE
Basically, something sounds like it was flipping a game engine numeric calculation in that situation to make "infinite" something or another. If that could be what is happening, I'd use it with caution, as those are "bugs", as opposed to an "acceptable sneaky around the believed engagement tactics a player will use" as coding goes. Broken code versus great tactic no one else has thought of that isn't 'breaking code', sort of deal.
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Right, so, as Saede can confirm, after checking a couple database numbers, I figured out exactly what the 'trick' that's being used is and how it works within game mechanics. In theory it should work on every single NPC in the game, not just Sleepers - and is also nothing new.
Without going into exact details of what they're doing, they're making a lot of tradeoffs to be able to even do this - and it takes a while doing it solo. If they fuck up, they kinda get vaporized. Quickly.
At worst, it's a bug and unintended behavior that'll be fixed at some point. At best, it's completely intended. However, by no means is it an exploit - I would be extremely surprised to see CCP classify it as such.
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Right, so, as Saede can confirm, after checking a couple database numbers, I figured out exactly what the 'trick' that's being used is and how it works within game mechanics. In theory it should work on every single NPC in the game, not just Sleepers - and is also nothing new.
Without going into exact details of what they're doing, they're making a lot of tradeoffs to be able to even do this - and it takes a while doing it solo. If they fuck up, they kinda get vaporized. Quickly.
At worst, it's a bug and unintended behavior that'll be fixed at some point. At best, it's completely intended. However, by no means is it an exploit - I would be extremely surprised to see CCP classify it as such.
Confirming the bit about getting quickly vaporized. And if others player show up to violence at one's spaceship while they're doing this, it's all over. Marauder fleets are literally the quickest way to get these sites done.
At the end of the day even if it is ruled an exploit the real bottleneck in T3 industry is C320 and C540 gases. It won't be particularly crippling to our corp since we just happened on it recently, but it is pretty nice.
By chance are these database numbers from DaOpa?
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So, another "RPer" is hiding behind an infiltrated alt to leak... compromising mails and cry all around how bad exploiters you are ? He surely must hate you :lol:
That's rather hilarious.
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To be completely honest, this is totally one of the reasons I love EVE so much. No other game would have anything like this happen in it. Its pretty great.
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Well, as long as you have fun with it...
I find it deleterious in a RP community tbh.
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Oh of course. If someone was outted for it, they'd probably be shuned by the RP community. You don't shit where you sleep.
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At worst, it's a bug and unintended behavior that'll be fixed at some point. At best, it's completely intended. However, by no means is it an exploit - I would be extremely surprised to see CCP classify it as such.
It's exploiting if you are using a bug to your advantage, even if you have bug reported it. There have been plenty of examples in the past where people have bug reported it and continued to use it and got slapped by CCP. Saying 'But I reported it!' isn't a defence, so I'd just tread careful if I were you (ALXVP).
Good luck o7
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It's behavior that's been part of how NPCs work for years - it's not even really -new- behavior either.
Calling this an exploit would be equivalent to calling someone a cheater for using a treadmill instead of going outside for a walk when the weather is too shitty to do so.
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It's behavior that's been part of how NPCs work for years - it's not even really -new- behavior either.
Calling this an exploit would be equivalent to calling someone a cheater for using a treadmill instead of going outside for a walk when the weather is too shitty to do so.
Treadmill users are anti-environmental antihumanists and should be prosecuted via unicorn trials.
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We've discontinued the use of the ghost method for the time being. If CCP decides not to rule it an exploit or to stealth patch it, we can always pick it up again later.
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Little heads up, the ghost method was ruled an exploit, I was banned for about three hours while CCP sorted itself out and realized we had in fact contacted them and played by the rules. The spy was revealed to be Astera Zandraki, working on behalf of Leopold Caine, and was subsequently kicked from corp and podded out of Origin. Her alt is still logged out, kicked from corp, under our tower in an Iteron V. So its only a matter of time before she logs that in and loses it as well. The situation is pretty much resolved. Its been a crazy couple of days.
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Out of curiosity, how have you learned all that about the infiltrator and how he was related to Leo ?
Nice to hear that it has been sorted.
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Astera's a known alt of someone who's been a close associate of Leo's for a very long while.
There's not that many people who would go through that much effort to cause a small-sized w-space corp - or Saede for that matter - that kind of trouble through poorly-executed espionage when an eviction op would've been more effective. Considering the action taken was to try and get her banned - a clearly OOC action - that really narrows it down even further as to who might engage in that kind of behavior.
The whole thing's pretty funny, considering how spectacularly it failed - including CCP's acknowledgement that their GMs fucked up in evaluating the situation.
Edit - I'll eat my words about it not being an exploit, I suppose, but I'm going to maintain that CCP now very clearly hates treadmill users in the polar regions. :psyccp:
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told you so.
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Out of curiosity, how have you learned all that about the infiltrator and how he was related to Leo ?
Nice to hear that it has been sorted.
So now our corp has faced two sets of bads. Bai'xao and the failheist, and Leo and the failspai.
As for how exactly we went about identifying the infiltrator, we used a few methods.
First, we analyzed the image and were able to glean a rough join date within 2-3 months, so we knew how long the spy had been in corp and who had joined during that stretch. Second, we knew the timezone (GMT +1, which happens to include Croatia, where Leo is from) that either the spy or their employer was living in. Third, the nature of the leak in the first place, what the spy tried to do, how they acted, what they posted (Exploitylva Paradox, amirite?) was very clearly from the perspective of someone with a personal bone to pick with us/me. They also had to be someone with an ego such that they'd burn a spy under the assumption that they'd already won, just by getting that image. Now, the list of people who actually give enough of a fuck about us to do something like this, isn't terribly large. It's shrunk again by the lack of competence used by the spy. A better spy would have just tried to steal assets or lead in an eviction fleet. So we arrived pretty quickly at Leopold as the most likely client of the spy. From there it was easy.
For one, Astera is known to be Ishta Maleto's alt, long time friend of Leo. We knew this when we recruited her, we simply had hoped that she'd left her OOC associations with Leo behind, those associations wouldn't colour her membership, or that Leo gave as much of a fuck about us as we give about him. This was probably our biggest mistake, assuming if we ignored Leo he'd go away.
For two, Leo had in the past bragged about having a spy in our corporation. For three, if it was Leo, then Astera was the only path left for information to travel along, since Aphoxema had already left us and gone back to Stillwater.
told you so.
To some extent yes! You were right in that it was declared an exploit, and I was banned even. However, its clear that you were incorrect about CCP banning people ex post facto, and the reason I was banned was the the banning GMs probably hadn't communicated with the GMs we'd petitioned, once it was elevated, it was dealt with very quickly and I was unbanned within a few hours of being banned. Essentially, the ban was unintentional, and the result of a breakdown in communication with the GMs, not that I actually did anything wrong. I also have an inkling that Leo may have had his entire corp mass petition me, but I've of course no way to know that one way or the other.
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Tbh it still feels more like you got lucky, knowing CCP. I agree with Louella.
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Tbh it still feels more like you got lucky, knowing CCP. I agree with Louella.
Yes. I was right about GMs not having omniscient knowledge on what is and what is not intended mechanics, and that a "this is not an exploit, yet" is very wobbly ground to do anything on.
Also, rumours on other forums, regarding subscription numbers and retainment and so on. Banning someone from corporation X may cost subscriptions, banning someone from corporation Y is all OK, that sort of favouritism or perceived favouritism is a problem.
after all, bot users don't get permanently banned. They can petition after 6 months for unbanning. Bots, man.
Lyn's right about being lucky this time. If what people say is true, and CCP is concerned about subscriptions, then they'll be a lot more lenient than they could otherwise be.
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Tbh it still feels more like you got lucky, knowing CCP. I agree with Louella.
Yes. I was right about GMs not having omniscient knowledge on what is and what is not intended mechanics, and that a "this is not an exploit, yet" is very wobbly ground to do anything on.
Also, rumours on other forums, regarding subscription numbers and retainment and so on. Banning someone from corporation X may cost subscriptions, banning someone from corporation Y is all OK, that sort of favouritism or perceived favouritism is a problem.
after all, bot users don't get permanently banned. They can petition after 6 months for unbanning. Bots, man.
Lyn's right about being lucky this time. If what people say is true, and CCP is concerned about subscriptions, then they'll be a lot more lenient than they could otherwise be.
Confirming irregular banning practices are entirely true, unfortunately. Experience talking here.
Re: Spais and stuff - if this is true and accurate, this is some pretty awful intel work. Who the hell doesn't blot out their timestamps?
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Who the hell doesn't blot out their timestamps?
Maxipad and/or Leo, apparently. :lol:
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(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/1d/1deff47cdbd0ec496efd897192c182a0a58c7d7d44eaf799cb46260d4b099240.jpg)
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So, shit was crazy today. Caught Orion Scimatarii trying to make off with ships, he claimed innocence from inside another members pilgrim (=/). Independently of that Leopold contacted me and told me he had nothing to do with the spy issue, and gave me logs of Orion attempting to sell him the location of our highsec static. Had a pretty long conversation with Leo, and I don't really any longer think he's got an interest in wrecking us.
So it could be that Orion was behind the spy thing this entire time. We may never be sure. Tis the nature of the beast. I'm hoping that things finally quiet down now regardless.
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Who knows, maybe you will find Istvaan in your proteus tomorrow. :P
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I feel like Istvaan is in everyone's Proteus.
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Aww yiss Kat, shove it right inside that Proteus...
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(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/04/044bc7618c132a8b0d6c75cf87cc745255538fa5b0adbf0f5fe5a86007714092.jpg)
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what is the intention behind naming everyone that you suspect, as being a spy?
other than the obvious one of attempting to drive them from the RP community, and plant OOC seeds of distrust in peoples minds about Leopold, Astera and Orion ?
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Isn't that enough?
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As a member of a corp I would like to keep protected, I think its worth knowing.
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Name and Shame, as far as I am concerned. False accusations aside, of course.
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Likewise. I can generate handwavium about it later for rp purposes - protecting my corp is protecting my corp. In this case, Saede was humble enough to retract her statements concerning Leo when Orion came to light, so I think all is well. By his presence in the H+ channel I assume there are no hard feelings.
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what is the intention behind naming everyone that you suspect, as being a spy?
other than the obvious one of attempting to drive them from the RP community, and plant OOC seeds of distrust in peoples minds about Leopold, Astera and Orion ?
There's honestly no specific ulterior motives beyond 'I should keep people in the loop'. This is some of the more exciting stuff that's happened to our corp, so I want to talk about these things for their own sake. That's all. People can take away from it whatever they wish.
Likewise. I can generate handwavium about it later for rp purposes - protecting my corp is protecting my corp. In this case, Saede was humble enough to retract her statements concerning Leo when Orion came to light, so I think all is well. By his presence in the H+ channel I assume there are no hard feelings.
Yeah, like I said, I had a long conversation with Leopold, and I don't think there are any hard feelings between us. Sometimes I'm wrong about people, and I've no trouble admitting that and retracting my statements. I'm not trying to achieve some particular end with any of these posts other then to tell people what's going on from our perspective.
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I definitely don't think there's any attempt to drive anyone from the RP community, but if there are corp thieves then it is reasonable to alert others in the RP community of their existence. There are so few RP corporations out there, and having them fall apart or suffer from a heist or spy scenario is just crappy.
We had the wrong impression about Leopold, and we've gotten past that. What we did see with our own eyes was Orion nabbing ships, so that much is known with certainty.
Edit: I would like to point out that you're being rather presumptuous and accusatory yourself, Louella. There is nothing "obvious" about anyone or anything in this situation.
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what is the intention behind naming everyone that you suspect, as being a spy?
other than the obvious one of attempting to drive them from the RP community, and plant OOC seeds of distrust in peoples minds about Leopold, Astera and Orion ?
If it was slander/false accusations out of thin air I would agree, but in any case, infiltrate people, get busted, deal with the consequences.
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vOv
same thing as ever.
Dude joins corp, stabs everyone in the back, reveals self to be Istvaan, everyone applauds.
Other dude joins corp, stabs one person in back, reveals self to not be Istvaan, everyone shouts "shun them! shun them all, even their alts, lest the evil persist"
lol
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Pretty much.
But it has to be done with style ! With STYLE !
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I'm not sure when Istvaan entered the conversation. While he's fairly e-famous, I don't think anybody would genuinely want him/alts infiltrating their corporation.
Besides, there's a different in the quality of work at hand. Istvaan is renowned for doing large jobs which involve a lot of forethought and take long periods of time to pull off. A petty corp theft from someone who wanted to leave and decided to (sloppily) grab what he could from the cookie jar isn't nearly as impressive.
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I'm not sure when Istvaan entered the conversation.
that's why he's good at it, lol
but no, the point was, that this comes up every time someone's RP corporation has spies, theft, or other betrayal. "cool kids" get to do whatever, "uncool kids" get pushed out of the community entirely. There's like a dozen or so threads about it on backstage.
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I'm not sure when Istvaan entered the conversation.
that's why he's good at it, lol
but no, the point was, that this comes up every time someone's RP corporation has spies, theft, or other betrayal. "cool kids" get to do whatever, "uncool kids" get pushed out of the community entirely. There's like a dozen or so threads about it on backstage.
Ninja insertion! :yar:
Perhaps there is a double-standard. I think the reason the "cool kids" get away with it is because they simply can't be stopped. Because they're so good at what they do you'll never find any watermarks or clues that it's them messing with you and your corporation. It's easy to golf clap whenever you're not the victim, but even easier to golf clap when nobody even has a clue it's happening in the first place. And like I said, there's a definite difference in attitude between people like Istvaan and people like Orion. Orion's case felt more like he was simply butthurt and wanted to take things and do some harm before he left. What makes that "uncool" IMO is that he wasn't willing to be open about not having fun where he was and simply leave on good terms. It's the difference between a disgruntled employee and government agency spy: the latter has Hollywood appeal while the former hardly makes local newspaper headlines.
Is there a double-standard? Probably, but I can sort of understand where it comes from </rant>
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Also, everyone knows Istvaan is a corp thief and a spy. He doesn't USE Istvaan for those purposes, because no one in their right mind would let him into their corp.
I have no problem with Orion OOC, but damned if I'm going to knowingly let him into any corp I've got a say in keeping him out. Just like I wouldn't let Istvaan in.
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This may be a little off topic and yes I recognise that this is Eve and that it (corp theft / spying) is part of the game play. But how do you stop yourself becoming totally paranoid about recruits?
A corp of mine suffered a theft a long time ago and I was never able to trust anyone enough after that to give anyone permissions to anything major, which lead to the corps collapse as no-one got to do want they wanted to do.
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Have a decent recruiting process and never let them have access to your main assets. Have a very, very few number of highly trusted individuals that have access to the things they NEED, but not necessarily everything they WANT.
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Pretty much what Tiberious said. We have a separate SMA for the absolute vitals needed for core operations with restricted access. If worst comes to worst we can keep going.
At the end of the day you just have to go out on a limb and trust people, both in EVE and real life. Any functioning group or society works on trust. Unity Gain, and stuff.
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This may be a little off topic and yes I recognise that this is Eve and that it (corp theft / spying) is part of the game play. But how do you stop yourself becoming totally paranoid about recruits?
A corp of mine suffered a theft a long time ago and I was never able to trust anyone enough after that to give anyone permissions to anything major, which lead to the corps collapse as no-one got to do want they wanted to do.
A decent recruitment process including background research, a fistful of common sense, and a core of people that you trust (enough).
If you can't get that then you're SOL. The (admittedly awful) comic that CAD did a while back of a gestapo style interview for corporate applications isn't far off. It's just about how well you hide it.
As for Orion, nothing really to say but I told you so.
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Todays patch notes seem relevant.
Also, earlier in the month, I received a reply to a question to the GMs, about a game mechanic, and the reply contained information that I know is factually incorrect.
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Todays patch notes seem relevant.
Also, earlier in the month, I received a reply to a question to the GMs, about a game mechanic, and the reply contained information that I know is factually incorrect.
GMs in not knowing game mechanics non-shock. Escalate to a senior GM. You're more likely to get an informed answer.
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Todays patch notes seem relevant.
Also, earlier in the month, I received a reply to a question to the GMs, about a game mechanic, and the reply contained information that I know is factually incorrect.
GMs in not knowing game mechanics non-shock. Escalate to a senior GM. You're more likely to get an informed answer.
This.
Also woo, indirect mention in the patch notes \o/
GMs in not knowing game mechanics non-shock. Escalate to a senior GM. You're more likely to get an informed answer.
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So, where is it written in the patch note ? :s
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Patch notes for EVE Online: Rubicon 1.1.8
Released on Wednesday, February 12th 2014
FIXES
Sleepers
Sleeper craft have received much needed sensor upgrades and can now detect and process threats across great distances. They’re watching you. Always.
Sleeper reinforcement protocols have been improved to reduce unsightly clustering.
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Reddit was so confused about this, it was kind of funny. A whole bunch of people asking if this meant sleepers were going to start hotdropping POSes out of the blue (alas, no, as it would be awesome).
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Reddit was so confused about this, it was kind of funny. A whole bunch of people asking if this meant sleepers were going to start hotdropping POSes out of the blue (alas, no, as it would be awesome).
Effectively turning wormholes into the best RP spots ever.
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Oh my, well this was interesting and possibly some of the best rp drama for a while ^_^
♥ Sae :cube: