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General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Casiella on 22 Jun 2011, 14:50
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If this (http://rift.chromebits.net/2011/06/alleged-leak-of-internal-ccp-memo/) (blog post I wrote) is real, we have a large problem. :bash: :psyccp:
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Yaay, every pirate faction RP'er who thinks it's "too hard" or "unreasonable" to have +standing to the faction can sort that problem. Woo!
:ugh:
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If this (http://rift.chromebits.net/2011/06/alleged-leak-of-internal-ccp-memo/) (blog post I wrote) is real, we have a large problem. :bash: :psyccp:
Well, maybe, but probably not if +7.0 with your faction of choice costs the same as a cyber-monocle...
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If this is for real -- and I certainly am not saying that it is, until CCP confirms -- then I'm pretty well done with EVE.
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Of all the straws to threaten the proverbial dromedary's back, why this? Or am I missing something?
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I'm doubting this is real, to be honest; from what I've been told (and granted, I've no first-hand experience with them) EVE News 24 isn't among the most reliable of sources, and the timing seems to coincide way too neatly with the backlash from pretty much everyone RE: Noble Exchange pricing. Eternal optimist, and so on.
If it is real, then CCP sure took a quick dive, IMO.
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Yaay, every pirate faction RP'er who thinks it's "too hard" or "unreasonable" to have +standing to the faction can sort that problem. Woo!
:ugh:
I'm fairly certain I would abstain from doing it out of principle's sake, even if 15$ would get me my last 1.0 for +10 Sansha's Nation.
:I
I'm going with this being a troll document, since CCP have said in the past they're only looking at vanity items for MT. Standings is not a vanity item.
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Look pretty damned legit.
This changes things, but I need to digest it a bit before I make decisions.
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Given that standings are no longer visible, what does this affect?
- Refining tax for miners/mission runners melting stuff
- Access to agents (might be well worth it for research agents)
- Being shot at in your enemy's space (if you can lift your standings above -5)
I'm not seeing a huge game-breaker here. Can someone explain it to me?
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Can't say I approve of this idea.
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I really don't give a flying fish about this until it's actually officially announced, by CCP, that they're doing it (or somesuch similar).
...'course, if it IS announced, I'm finding me a new MMO.
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Why? Kinda curious.
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I have more and more of a belief that it's not a hoax, but like a reasonable person I am waiting on word from CCP.
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I'm kinda bummed WoD went for the CCP macro-transaction model. I must say I've waited for that game with interest, but having the buying of in-game effectiveness as in-built into it as it sounds right now is not a good thing in my book.
I'm not totally opposed to micro-transactions at all and I'm not sure they will ruin Eve either (funnily enough before reading that document I was sure they wouldn't, but now I'm not so sure), but they are a thing that has to be done right. Blizzard has done a good job integrating them into their game and making tons of money out of it without ruining any of the game-play. Their pricing is just right, too. More important and scary than the idea of buying faction standings in Eve is the way in which CCP macro-transactions are discussed therein.
Anyway, maybe it turns out to not be legit, but I highly doubt it.
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The thread on Failheap discussing this is rather in depth.
In it Seleene confirms that it conforms both in name as well as style to CCP:s internal newsletter.
From the discussion it seems that it is indeed real.
Seems that there are two versions. The one on Eve news and an unedited. Though the edited one isn't substantialy different from the original that has also been released and is found in the thread.
Some former CSM members have gotten this shortly after it's release it seems. Mynxee for example confirms she got a copy the 28th of May.
Here's the thread for those interested:
http://failheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2434
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It seems a little odd; I suppose it is access to "premium content" faster, but there is still skill training before you can effectively utilize high standings.
For arguments sake, lets assume the kind of player they are looking to appeal is willing to put down some amount of money to get into the "premium content" and buy a bunch of ISK using plex sales (and sells to buy orders). So, they can buy a faction battleship and have the standing to work L4 agents and Faction Navy Epic Arc agents (presumably quest type player End-Game content?). Then they spend the next 2 months logging in to adjust skills until they have racial battleship 4 and barely the skills to fit it?
I don't get it.
What we should fear is the sale of skill points in exchange for PLEX.
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Yeah, seems to be legit then after having read through that thread.
Given that standings are no longer visible, what does this affect?
- Refining tax for miners/mission runners melting stuff
- Access to agents (might be well worth it for research agents)
- Being shot at in your enemy's space (if you can lift your standings above -5)
I'm not seeing a huge game-breaker here. Can someone explain it to me?
Standings themselves are probably the least offensive option for adding as a MT feature. With that said the reason this crosses the line is CCP is proposing an option to pay for progression not vanity items. It isn't as egregious as being able to flat out buy ships, weapons, etc., but it is in the same category. Frankly in a totally F2P game some level of being able to pay for "progression" isn't something I am totally opposed to, but EVE is a subscription game. My general view is if you are paying for a subscription that should "unlock" any and all content that the game has to offer, without you having to shell out another $10-20 for some shiny thing. I'm not annoyed enough about vanity items to unsub, but the potential for them pushing beyond that is seriously making me angry. Soundwave's comment in the document about the idea of doing stuff such as charging for additional saved ship fittings makes me cringe.
To add: I believe if CCP (or any other MMO company that runs on a subscription model) wants to create additional revenue streams it is much better to offer services that players might utilize rather than selling items. EVE loses out on some of them due to the single shard nature unfortunately. But, let's look at what WoW offers to players (for a fee) that have nothing to do with buying items or in-game progression: character transfers, name changes, realm swaps, faction, race, and appearance changes. I don't think these really apply specifically to stuff EVE could do, but they serve as examples. EVE already has the portrait swap feature and they definitely get some additional revenue from character account transfers too. I'm sure CCP could come up with some others. Although ultimately I suspect they wouldn't compare to the possible profit made off MT purchases and that is why we are seeing the push towards them.
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What we should fear is the sale of skill points in exchange for PLEX.
Well, there's a real potential for slippery slope issues. If they turn a decent profit with Aurum stuff (that is, after they sell about six or seven monocles), the temptation to take it a step further may be hard to resist. Let's not forget that little thing a few months back when they added that skill point 'reimbursement' system...
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Not to mention someone who had enough pull to get stuff on the to-do list had already planned magical out-of-nowhere scorpions.
The basic disconnect that just the situation with Incarna shows is worrying enough - if this newsletter is genuine, then I'm seriously concerned. I've played Eve for just over 8 years, and for at least 8 years of that time, I've always assumed that I would quit Eve only when they shut the servers down. This is the first thing that has made me reconsider that position.
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Standings themselves are probably the least offensive option for adding as a MT feature. With that said the reason this crosses the line is CCP is proposing an option to pay for progression not vanity items.
Is this significantly different in kind than someone being able to lay down a lump of cash for Plex and buy a character with the standings on the character bazaar, along with the fancy implants and a Marauder?
It just means more people being stupid with stuff the Player doesn't know how to fly. I forsee exploding fancy ships in lowsec.
edit: I'm not saying I'm incredibly happy about it, I just don't see that it's as world-ending as some people seem to be suggesting. CCP aren't going to get any more money per month out of me than they do now, so I don't really feel like it affects me that much.
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I think the difference there, and the difference between vanity items and even, say, ammunition, is that wherever the particular player gets the ISK, and whatever they use it to buy, ISK changes hands. Things aren't jsut spontaneously appearing. You can buy a character with ISK, but that character got those SP the hard way. You can buy a faction ship, but someone found that BPC, or bought it, and built the ship.
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It is more about the principle of it and also the slippery slope issue Ken brings up.
Buying characters is at least sourced from within the game economy and other players. As with PLEX its more of a grey area, but I feel it helps more than hurts as it removes the more black market RMT company aspect to that stuff. That is a discussion of its own though.
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Given that standings are no longer visible, what does this affect?
- Refining tax for miners/mission runners melting stuff
- Access to agents (might be well worth it for research agents)
- Being shot at in your enemy's space (if you can lift your standings above -5)
I'm not seeing a huge game-breaker here. Can someone explain it to me?
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, there's a big difference between the current model of selling things that can't be created IG for cash (subscription time, vanity clothes) and allowing players to exchange them (for ISK if they choose) and the proposal of selling things that can be created / achieved / done IG for cash.
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Buying characters is at least sourced from within the game economy and other players. As with PLEX its more of a grey area, but I feel it helps more than hurts as it removes the more black market RMT company aspect to that stuff. That is a discussion of its own though.
Maybe a little, but I highly doubt that really fixes the RMT issue. We still see it, and it is still noticeable enough.
Bah anyway, im an anti PLEX / microtransactions biased bitter vet. This one is the last straw if even it happens.
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Did CCP not say that they didn't want to upset the economy. Guess what happens when people can buy pirate faction / ORE standings and jump right into farming blueprints? Sure they will still need to deal with the locals, but that makes things a hell of a lot easier. The recent quality removal has hit all LP store sales already. Guess what this would do. Of course it's only an internal message, and someone may say "lol no bad idea", but I get kinda shaky when things like this come up. Because this being implemented would be for me a sign of the beginning of the end. As it tends to be what games do when they are dying. If CCP is in money trouble, make our subscriptions a bit more expensive, instead of pissing off your core player base.
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I feel like CCP has declared themselves Eternal President, mad with power and megalomania, and we're watching our world descend into tyranny...
I mean, seriously, it seems so unreal I'm completely blase about it, because I'm not sure how to react.
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I'd rather like to see how poorly CCP's other internal newsletters state things, before I decide how to feel about this one specifically.
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I just made a post yesterday (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2444.msg33991#msg33991) about how sad I was that faction standing still no longer are visible to others than yourself. But… if faction standings are supposed to be a personal issue only then it is perfectly fine to be able to buy them with AUR. Who would care anyhow? I cannot see your faction affiliation through standings anymore; that way of role playing is dead.
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I dont know people are getting up in arms about a company internal memo. These things often contain ideas and concepts that never see the light of day, and get shot down as soon as they leave a specific department.
Wait until there is a dev blog, or some oficial CCP comunication about direction, or something in the patch notes.
I will continue to play until something I dont like actually makes it into the game, and breaks something that I find fun. People stopping acounts in a fit of emo-rage are acting prematurely. Even if CCP do break their own game in a year from now, I can still extract a years worth of entertainment in the meantime.
Nothing in the memo is more game breaking than the current super capitals.
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I dont know people are getting up in arms about a company internal memo. These things often contain ideas and concepts that never see the light of day, and get shot down as soon as they leave a specific department.
True. I think some of it is at least a direct reaction to the tone of the newsletter. "Greed is Good" being translated as "Let's Fleece the Players".
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I'd be much more upset if they charged money for tools that are required to play the game effectively. Most of those Korean MMOs seem to do that, where you can play for free but the quality of loot increases depending on the subscription you have. IE. you can pay 10 bucks a month and actually get something useful when a monster dies.
If I was a hardcore pvper in EVE, and they introduced items and ships that could only be purchased in the store, and the items provided such an advantage that they became a STANDARD in combat, then I'd be dropping EVE very quickly. That said, if they introduced vanity ships and other trinket type toys, you know, like cheaper than that monacle, I'd totally go for that. I've bought so many of those vanity pets and mounts in WoW and it didn't feel like a waste of money to me.
Buying standings...I'd never do this myself, but it's just a grind, and if people have the financial backing to sidestep it, I'd say more power to them.
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The idea that they'd just sell the sorts of things that many of us consider gameplay - getting faction standings, building ammo and ships - says to me that they don't think my play style matters.
I hope for some sort of rebuttal / remediation today from CCP, because I want to believe.
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Kaleigh: they still can buy tags for data centers with ISK from PLEX. The difference is that someone had to go get those tags.
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Kaleigh: they still can buy tags for data centers with ISK from PLEX. The difference is that someone had to go get those tags.
I'm not sure what portion of my post you're referring to with this statement.
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Kaleigh: they still can buy tags for data centers with ISK from PLEX. The difference is that someone had to go get those tags.
I'm not sure what portion of my post you're referring to with this statement.
Buying standings. The datacenters let you boost your faction standing in exchange for giving them a bunch of NPC pirate tags that are looted from rat wrecks and sold on the market.
I'm a little ambivalent about the idea of buying faction standings via Aurum - I would be cautiously accepting of it if there were, say, an upper limit to what you could "buy in" to - say, full neutral, or maybe +1, and generally fine with the idea of an upper limit that was a negative number (say, -4, so you could get into that faction's highsec). To some extent it makes sense within the context of the game, in this case someone bribing the officials to look the other way rather than trying to kill them every time they jump into their space. But even bribes only go so far.
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Perhaps if it's spun in a faction appropriate way, there could be some tongue-in-cheek RP value to a standings purchase mechanic. Say, massive, publicized donations to the Luminaire Orphans Society or to the Imperial Cathedral of the Repentant Pilot. Bit of positive PR for a pilot to put him/her (back) in the good graces of the faction?
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Kaleigh: they still can buy tags for data centers with ISK from PLEX. The difference is that someone had to go get those tags.
I'm not sure what portion of my post you're referring to with this statement.
Buying standings. The datacenters let you boost your faction standing in exchange for giving them a bunch of NPC pirate tags that are looted from rat wrecks and sold on the market.
I understood that part. Just curious about why I was addressed I guess. >.>
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I was referring to the last paragraph of the first post on this page of this thread. ;)
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I was referring to the last paragraph of the first post on this page of this thread. ;)
*head explodes*
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Sorry :/
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So are you trying to say that you feel running missions and gaining faction standings the old fashioned way is invalidated by buying it instantly from CCP? I'm just trying to figure out how this is significant enough to quit the game over.
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Well, yes, actually. If you can buy gameplay results directly from CCP -- nobody had to do anything IG -- then the sandbox is gone. Same goes for the sales of ammo and ships they mentioned in the doc.
If I want to play a spaceships pew pew game based on MTs, I'll go try out Black Prophecy or something. EVE PVP and such matters to me because there are consequences to it IG.
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While I wouldn't quit over it, I can see the problem with how it impacts the economy and particularly the sandbox concept.
In the case of plex, a plex doesn't actually do anything in game. It converts IRL money into gametime, which can then be bought and sold. We already use IRL money for gametime, but now we can buy at sell it to each other, etc. While it does allow someone to quickly convert IRL cash into ISK, that isk didn't come from nowhere - someone had to earn it.
The basis of the EVE economy is that everything has to be made by a player in some form or fashion. Isk is earned running missions and killing rats. Ships are made from mineral which are mined. Standings are earned either by running missions or by turning in tags earned by killing the enemies of a specific faction.
Anything that removes the intermediary steps and lets you go straight from Plex --> Stuff hurts the concept of the sandbox and the player driven economy. The Player economy sets the price of goods - but it doesn't look like player supply and demand will impact the price of aur, except through pushing the price of plex up.
This results in something like when shuttles were seeded as NPC sell orders: It sets a ceiling on prices. Previously, the price of Trit could never exceed 2.4 isk p/u because if it did, people would just buy and reprocess shuttles for trit. If aur can be used to buy standings, then it will set a ceiling on the price of tags - if it costs less isk to buy a plex, turn it into aur, and buy standings, than it would to buy the equivalent standings via tags, no one will buy the tags, and vice versa.
On it's own, this isn't a huge deal. But EVE sells itself as the only sandbox game out there, and allowing MT to buy you things previously made/earned in the game fucks up the sandbox.
EDIT: sniped by cass
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high faction standings allow high-sec POS.
There are characters ingame who hire themselves out to allow corporations to anchor highsec POS. This is a player-created activity, arising entirely from player imagination and action.
Selling faction standings carries the possibility of eliminating this POS anchoring service.
Damaging/destroying player-generated content, reducing the amount of interaction between players, for microtransaction money.
That is one reason why faction standing for Aurum is not good.
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I'd also like to add, having thought about this and talked to others over the past 24 hours, that 'buying your way past' gameplay, for many (including me) reduces enjoyment in that gameplay even if it's something we enjoy doing.
No, this isn't perfectly logical. If an activity is fun, it should be still fun if there's no actual benefit, right?
Well, wrong, for many. I noticed in other games that had purchasable progression options that, once I reached the level that allowed me to use them, my enjoyment in the gameplay diminished, no matter how much I had enjoyed it up until then. There's a reason single-player games don't put the cheat codes right on the back of the box, after all. Many activities that are enjoyable when coupled with a sense of achievement - even a fleeting and artificial one, like a game reward - are not enjoyable when they become meaningless repetition that is being done for no purpose.
When I first got out into the workforce and started earning real money, I spent a bunch of it on things to make my parents' lives easier - a lawn-moving service, a regular maintenance guy, etc. My mother, however, politely but firmly refused the laundry service that would have washed, dried and ironed all their business shirts once a week. She explained that she enjoyed spending a quiet Sunday afternoon ironing, and I was trying to ruin her favourite part of the week.
Being young and stupid, I asked, "But if you want to iron sometime, can't you just iron the stuff again?"
That, she told me, was not the point.
And it isn't.
People's reactions to this proposal are not just about someone else buying an advantage. They're about a fundamental change to their gameplay and their enjoyment. 'Opt out' cash-buttons are not compatible with what I enjoy in EVE.
They may come, and they may be popular, and they may bring in new players. But they will not be without cost for others.
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Having now read the "leak" in full, I have to say that (1) I do think it's real, if this hasn't been 100% confirmed yet, and (2) this does, in fact, piss me off.
It mostly pisses me off because CCP knew going into this mess that it had a credibility problem, and yet apparently had no qualms about lying its collective head off.
The micro/macro-transactions thing bothers me anyway, a little; it taints the game with wholly "meta" influence. But that's always been there: if it wasn't a debit card, it was a spy.
Hrm. Not good. And I particularly don't like the confirmation that gameplay-affecting items are planned to be for sale in both Eve and DUST.
Just exactly how much it pisses me off, I'll need to think about for a bit.
That, and how quick I am to take a corporation's word (and I'm already enormously anti-corporate) for jack shit.
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Aria, did you notice that while the newsletter talks about the sale of non-vanity virtual goods that could influence game play in space these have not (yet?) been introduced to the game. On the contrary, the NEX store which is implemented does not comply with the message in the newsletter about how the cost of virtual goods should not be ridiculously high.
I would not get too worked up about a brainstorm session within CCP.
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Aria, did you notice that while the newsletter talks about the sale of non-vanity virtual goods that could influence game play in space these have not (yet?) been introduced to the game. On the contrary, the NEX store which is implemented does not comply with the message in the newsletter about how the cost of virtual goods should not be ridiculously high.
I would not get too worked up about a brainstorm session within CCP.
Nor would I, but having read it I no longer buy that this is a brainstorm. It's a newsletter functionally declaring current corporate direction and policy.
Right at the beginning, you've got the introductory bit of philosophy, setting the stage. Then you've got the debate: the ruling view (virtual goods: yes!) and the dissent (virtual goods: no! At least no substantive ones).
Any sense of neutrality on the issue on the part of CCP itself is run straight into the turf by the next three articles. The first details plans for Eve, potentially including ships and ammo, with no discussion of whether these are to be "substantive" purchases or just vanity items. The second goes into DUST, and states plans to add a bit of "chlorine" to make us want to "buy goggles"-- that is, to give a substantive advantage to purchasers that will drive us to buy. The third discusses WoD, and is utterly unequivocal about the substantive nature of the purchases on offer.
While they're being businesslike and sensible about all of this (I detect much corporate-ness, but little of the arrogance others perceive), that is the last thing I want from them on this particular issue. More vision, less calculation, if you please.
I'm a lawyer. While I am presently impoverished, that will not always be the case. But even when I can and do pull down $400 an hour working a criminal case the way my mentor can, I will STILL not want to play the kind of game where I can load the freaking dice-- even marginally-- by throwing RL money at the problem.
Ever since DUST was announced, I've hardly been able to wait-- at least to try it out. I've got this great character I was planning on making, and was even considering retiring Aria if things went particularly well. But now that I know CCP is planning on making me pay for my victories in cash?
Fuck. That. Shit.
Give me subscriptions any day.
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Further evidence of the Great CCP Sell Out that has been going on for years now. It is really quite upsetting to see what was a great little company evolve into rank corporate whores on a par with Ubisoft. For me, the alrm bells started ringing as soon as some
shitehawk fine gentleman of unquestionable moral fortitude started blithering on about monetizing the IP. As soon as you get people blithely spouting hideous arsespeak words like monetize, you know you are fucked, unless those people are hastily marginalised or hoofed out the door in short order. When they weasel their way into fairly senior and influential positions, then you know that the company has sold its soul. They are no longer creating products that they are passionate about; they are devising ways to extract as much money from their customers as possible. That is always creative death: let the accountants make the game and you get a shit game that looks good on the balance sheet for a while.
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Maybe.
In any case, I'll wait to see CCP's response to all this before I do anything drastic. Seleene described this as a "perfect storm" of player rage, and while I think the "Incarna" portion of that is a tempest in a teapot next to the rage over the MT leak, I certainly am feeling wrath and sadness enough to drive a departure.
Have to see whether they pull a quick U-turn on the substantive MT's. If they don't....
God, I would miss this game.
Fundamentally, I think CCP has just lost track of what kind of people are attracted to Eve. It's acting like we're basically no different from the fans of those Korean "freemium" MMO's cited in the leaked "Fearless."
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Having now read the "leak" in full, I have to say that (1) I do think it's real, if this hasn't been 100% confirmed yet, and (2) this does, in fact, piss me off.
Yeah, despite not liking the Incarna expansion from the first glimpses of what we'd actually be getting, I was still very much on CCP's side. One expansion that fails to impress me is nothing in comparison to them having made what I think is the best sandbox MMO out there. Even the macro-transactions don't cause my world to shift, except in bouts of laughter.
The leaked document and the ideas/language therein however changed things. That and what it says about the folks who quit the CSM in disgust. I fear there has been even worse stuff coming based on their comments.
With all that, I've come to realize a painful truth about CCP's business model. The true problem is that CCP don't really need any particular set of players in their sandbox. They can easily exchange us for a set of players who are more willing to spend money for what they are selling as long as they can get people rolling in. Unfortunately, the selling of in-game advantage (special ammo, skill points, etc) and the like is going to be a factor in enticing just those particular newbies into the game. This is why for the first time even I'm thinking the Eve I knew might be dying on us - and I'm usually the one to take a positive outlook on this game's future.
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Selling faction standings?
NO :evil: