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Author Topic: Pirates no more?  (Read 3016 times)

BloodBird

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #15 on: 07 Mar 2013, 04:12 »

I personally feel the pirate factions are more legitimate than capsuleer corporations or alliances. Concord recognizes those. 

I don't agree that they lack infrastructure or a government. Cartel for example has an executive group (the Dominations) and a military force (the Archangels.) Serpentis is a corporation. They simply lack the benefits that Concord provides such as the DED rapid response capability.

Explain this to me. What, if anything, makes the Angel Cartel 'legitimate' in any way?


As is often the case with real life, having the military power to enforce your existence as a government. While I'm sure we all can agree that North Korea isn't exactly a paragon of democracy and freedom, it is still recognized as a legitimate nation. The only reason not to afford this nation state status to the pirate groups is likely to be an attempt on concord's part to make them seem like less serious of problems. Its easier to deal with the "infestation of angel pirates" when you refer to them as an infestation of pirates and not as the sovereignty holders of large blocks of nullsec.

The Angel Cartel is considered a gigantic crime syndicate by CONCORD and their signatories because they engage in piracy, raiding, drug-production and smuggling, mass-scale kidnapping and slavery, human trafficking and a list of other offenses that come with this. The fact that in Angel-controlled space things are somewhat civilized is irrelevant - they may be the most organized of the pirate groups, but even deranged cultists like the Blood Raiders manage to have enough control and organization to produce weapons, ships and gear enough to have a standing dirt-side and space-born force. Anyone who lives in Angel space and is lucky enough to not be a slave destined to a short, gruesome life of slave-work until death is enrolled somewhere in a vast military machine bent on practically feeding off all other groups that don't bend knee to their will and the whims of the Dominations, about the only really fortunate group in the whole organization - as they just so happen to be the top-dogs barking orders to the lower ranks on the pyramid below.

North Korea in comparison is not the paragon of democratic virtue, no, and may even be a very shitty place to live by most western and eastern standards, but the North Korean military don't go about raiding all their neighbors at will, they don't mass-produce drugs for smuggling and sale to foreigners and employ raiding ops to capture people for use in vast slave-labor camps that make their goods.

There is no comparison to make, and the only way any of the pirate groups would become CONCORD signatories would be by massive social, political and practical changes that completely transformed them into something else entirely, something that actually resembled a civilized society. The Angel Cartel among other groups, are not this oppressed, miss-understood underdogs trying to get by, they are pariahs of the worst sort outlawed and declared pirates by the Empires for a very good reason, a reason that is extremely unlikely to change anytime soon.
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DeadRow

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #16 on: 07 Mar 2013, 05:25 »

From what I see the Cartel (I'm using the Cartel because I'm currently working for them and I think are one of two Factions where it might apply) don't gain anything from joining the CONCORD mandate but get a whole pile of shit they'd have to jump through to the point where it'd just be a poor-man's Republic (and thats saying something!).

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[12:40:50] Kasuko Merin > He has this incredible talent for making posts at people that could be <i>literally</i> quoted straight back at him and still apply.

Zakar Shazih

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #17 on: 07 Mar 2013, 06:17 »

What would any of the pirate factions gain by joining CONCORD? Much of their cultural elements would have to be stopped for example blooding by the Blood Raiders. They would have to conform to CONCORD regulations. It seems to be the pirate factions are that way because they do not wish to conform.
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Anslol

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #18 on: 07 Mar 2013, 07:31 »

Today, Sansha's Nation shocked the cluster by signing on as a full CONCORD member...

Right, who slept with Endoma when she was an intern and is being blackmailed... speak up.

My bad...sorry....
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Tabor Murn

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #19 on: 07 Mar 2013, 12:46 »

I personally feel the pirate factions are more legitimate than capsuleer corporations or alliances. Concord recognizes those. 

I don't agree that they lack infrastructure or a government. Cartel for example has an executive group (the Dominations) and a military force (the Archangels.) Serpentis is a corporation. They simply lack the benefits that Concord provides such as the DED rapid response capability.

Explain this to me. What, if anything, makes the Angel Cartel 'legitimate' in any way?

Null-sec capsuleer organizations are short-lived, often temporary. By their very nature they exist solely of capsuleers and any support staff that the egger brings with them to crew their ships and stations. The Cartel has been around for a hundred years, has held sovereign space for presumably a significant portion of that. Curse is more developed than the Khanid Kingdom. As I said, they have a governing body, a military, even the name Cartel implies that is a formal organization that agrees to abide by rules set by the organization.  Isn't that the basis of any society?

I'm not saying that they are good guys by any means, but there are plenty of states that have been involved with shady practices. There are states funded by drug production, arms manufacture and distribution, slave-labor, etc.  The Cartel is opposed by almost every other faction in New Eden (like many of the outlaw factions) I don't see why they would have any reason to play nice.
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BloodBird

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #20 on: 07 Mar 2013, 15:06 »

I personally feel the pirate factions are more legitimate than capsuleer corporations or alliances. Concord recognizes those. 

I don't agree that they lack infrastructure or a government. Cartel for example has an executive group (the Dominations) and a military force (the Archangels.) Serpentis is a corporation. They simply lack the benefits that Concord provides such as the DED rapid response capability.

Explain this to me. What, if anything, makes the Angel Cartel 'legitimate' in any way?

Null-sec capsuleer organizations are short-lived, often temporary. By their very nature they exist solely of capsuleers and any support staff that the egger brings with them to crew their ships and stations. The Cartel has been around for a hundred years, has held sovereign space for presumably a significant portion of that. Curse is more developed than the Khanid Kingdom. As I said, they have a governing body, a military, even the name Cartel implies that is a formal organization that agrees to abide by rules set by the organization.  Isn't that the basis of any society?

I'm not saying that they are good guys by any means, but there are plenty of states that have been involved with shady practices. There are states funded by drug production, arms manufacture and distribution, slave-labor, etc.  The Cartel is opposed by almost every other faction in New Eden (like many of the outlaw factions) I don't see why they would have any reason to play nice.

Having the characteristics of a society does not make you legitimate by default.

You also got it backwards - the Cartel is opposed because they don't 'play nice' and never have, they are not being opposed and then choosing to not be nice about it.

The Serpentis started as a corporation and still operate in the framework of one, this does not make a nation out of them, even if their 'corporate property' expands to a large number of systems and planets where loads of unfortunate people live, many of them enslaved and many of them enslaving and many others 'hired' by the organization. As long as the corporation was a law-abiding entity they were considered legitimate, but after moving to null-sec and setting up in Fountain and then becoming friends with the Cartel and engaging in illegal research and production they were outlawed. At that point they openly embraced piracy, slavery and many other things that further cements their outlawed state.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #21 on: 07 Mar 2013, 15:21 »

Had a thought.

What if the slightly less deranged pirate factions got recognition as sovereign states and became CONCORD signatories? They have their own "home" areas of space after all.

You'd have to find some sort of replacement for belt rats but the Rogue Drones would do at a pinch. Also, some pirate groups (EoM and possibly the Sansha come to mind) are way too out there to make a peace with the rest of the respectable cluster. In my opinion anyway. So they might expand to fill the criminal void left by their newly respectable cousins. Maybe invent some completely new dissident or rebel groups?

All we need is more highsec space! Let's make 0.0 sov-only so it's supercap blob or go run missions.  >.<

See, you are assuming something here. Who said anything about the pirate havens becoming high-sec?

As for the rest of you. Yes I agree that this is unlikely and that any of the outlaw groups would have to change drastically in order for this to happen. However I am considering this by way of a massive change to the cluster's political landscape that might throw a few more complications into the old 2v2 core empire brawling.

As for what they'd have to offer. I seem to recall that quite a few of the pirate ship designs are very sought after. Not to mention their equipment.

This is unlikely to happen I know. It's just a thought experiment. How would they have to change, what would they bring to the table, what would they get out of it & could any of this be acceptable, or at least interesting, to people playing pirate faction loyalists?
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Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Tabor Murn

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #22 on: 07 Mar 2013, 15:33 »

Many of the things the outlaw organizations do are done by the Concord factions. The Amarr have drugs and slavery. All four factions raid each others' space (in missions and events), just like the outlaws. I'm sure all the factions do illegal research. The only difference between the outlaw factions and the legal ones, is they exist outside of the Concord hegemony's direct influence. They aren't cowed by the DED's threat (and application) of force and so have no obligation to obey the values that Concord advocates.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #23 on: 07 Mar 2013, 16:15 »

The Navy thing is a bit =S

CONCORD telling the Big 4's navies to stand the fuck down was a serious event during the Empyrean Age events. The militia war powers act was entirely put in to avoid an all-out war. But according to missions, they regularly cross each others borders to raid, steal minerals, and even bombard planets with weapons of mass destruction.



Building on that, I think the non-acceptance of the more civilized pirate factions have to do with their unwillingness to give up their aggressive tendencies compared to the current Big 4. The Empire, for instance, had to stop accepting the raids into the others for slaves; the Gallente had to hide further advanced drone research; the Republic and State both have shifty research operations out in nullsec for the same reasons.

None of the pirate operations have shown a willingness to compromise to the same degree: The Blooders NEED more bodies to drain, the Serpentis are now virtually built around drug production and running operations and to give up that branch of business would seriously gut any others as well. The only ones with whom it might have remotely possible to come to an agreement with in the past are Nation, but the attack of the Empires and the subsequent revenge-rampage by Papa Kuvakei put an end to that.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Vincent Pryce

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #24 on: 07 Mar 2013, 17:29 »

Ok lets clear a few things up Serpentis started as a pharmaceutical corporation and transformed to the black market biomedical corporation it is today. While the Serpentis assets are considerable, one thing they do not have, unlike many other factions, is their own military wing. Serpentis military wing is Guardian Angels. Guardian Angels designed Serpentis combat vessels, and mainly man those combat vessels. Serpentis exist in a mutually a beneficial symbiosis with the Angel Cartel, they supply the merchandise and Cartel takes care of the security. However, Angel Cartel can survive without the Serpentis, but Serpentis becomes vulnerable without the Angel Cartel. So if anything, Serpentis would become an entity within the hypothetical Angel Empire - or jump ship, which is the likelier choice since this is EVE after all.

If Angel Cartel would vie for actually recognized sovereign status with CONCORD, entities like Amarr Empire, Caldari State and Khanid Kingdom would be possible allies. As it is, Amarr Empire and Caldari State are neutral with the Cartel, I'm sure they would welcome a powerful ally in their fight against their enemies. Funnily enough, CONCORD is only -1 towards Angel Cartel mutually. They view each other as a mild nuissance to each other.   :yar:
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #25 on: 08 Mar 2013, 07:14 »

I can agree with that, but daredevil put aside, did the angels upgraded megathron and thorax hulls too ?

Also, if they designed serpentis ships, why are they not using them for themselves as  well ?

This is a bit  :psyccp:

I also take ingame faction standings with extra caution.
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Vincent Pryce

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #26 on: 08 Mar 2013, 07:35 »

I can agree with that, but daredevil put aside, did the angels upgraded megathron and thorax hulls too ?

Also, if they designed serpentis ships, why are they not using them for themselves as  well ?

This is a bit  :psyccp:

I also take ingame faction standings with extra caution.

Yes they did. It is, or at least used to be in the Vigilant and Vindicator descriptions. Technically they are using them, since they are the workhorse ships of Guardian Angels. It boils down to game mechanics and purely ooc design. Different rats for different regions. Yes, I do agree on the  :psyccp: in this case.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #27 on: 08 Mar 2013, 07:54 »

I can agree with that, but daredevil put aside, did the angels upgraded megathron and thorax hulls too ?

Also, if they designed serpentis ships, why are they not using them for themselves as  well ?

This is a bit  :psyccp:

I also take ingame faction standings with extra caution.

Yes they did. It is, or at least used to be in the Vigilant and Vindicator descriptions. Technically they are using them, since they are the workhorse ships of Guardian Angels. It boils down to game mechanics and purely ooc design. Different rats for different regions. Yes, I do agree on the  :psyccp: in this case.

Perhaps the Angels are keeping their supposed Jovian technical legacy for themselves and the people assigned to security duty for the Serpentis are out of favour with the leadership, or are seeking to prove themselves?
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Kind Regards,
Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Vincent Pryce

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #28 on: 08 Mar 2013, 08:08 »


Perhaps the Angels are keeping their supposed Jovian technical legacy for themselves and the people assigned to security duty for the Serpentis are out of favour with the leadership, or are seeking to prove themselves?

That sounds like a very good and plausible explanation. I like it.
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BloodBird

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Re: Pirates no more?
« Reply #29 on: 08 Mar 2013, 09:49 »

Many of the things the outlaw organizations do are done by the Concord factions. The Amarr have drugs and slavery. All four factions raid each others' space (in missions and events), just like the outlaws. I'm sure all the factions do illegal research. The only difference between the outlaw factions and the legal ones, is they exist outside of the Concord hegemony's direct influence. They aren't cowed by the DED's threat (and application) of force and so have no obligation to obey the values that Concord advocates.

The Amarr produce one drug and it's antidote to control some of their slaves. They are the only Empire to do this. The Angels and Serpentis mass produce a wide variety of drugs for smuggling into the empires and sale to it's citizens to profit from all the misery this brings.

The Amarr maintain slavery in their own Empire and has outlawed taking slaves in other areas, they maintain slaves for ideological reasons and generally treat their slaves well - they expect them to be come Imperials at some point. The Angels and Serpentis and others enslave whoever they please from anywhere purely for their own profit and will work their slaves to death eventually, thus needing to capture more.

All Empires commit to cloak and dagger style black ops operations for a variety of reasons that they justify as needed. From what I have seen apparently civilians are rarely cough up in these. All the outlawed factions raid and pillage for loot, kicks, slaves and other savory reasons and generally target civilians as much as they can, because military targets are harder.

"I am sure all the Empires do illegal research" is not viable because IIRC there is no known PF source to say they do, while we know that the Serpentis at least constantly develop new drugs and boosters that are declared illegal for good reasons. They don't give a shit - other people's misery is their profit.

"The only difference" between the outlaws and the Empires is that the Empires have stable and generally civilized and often pleasant societies to live in. While it varies from Empire to Empire their is generally social security of some sort, legitimate and non-corrupt police and military forces for security, functional infrastructure, good, actual honest jobs and a plethora of other hallmarks of great civilizations. The outlawed factions can't boast even half of this, and their only known export and/or relationships with others is pain and misery in abundance. Outside of war-times and generally in war-times as well the Empires manage to remain somewhat civil with one another.

The Outlaws exterminate whole cities for resisting their demands, steals what they want, kill whoever they wish and abduct people as they please, to do with as they desire. This includes but are not limited to; enslavement into illegal drug manufacturing where you may end up having your very face cut off and sold, being bleed out until dead, the right to watch your family get bleed out before they do it to you, abducted and ransomed, often without being freed, enslavement into the sex industry and the joy of becoming a sex-slave, and possibly conscription into the crews of pirate ships where you assist in all these and more.*

Also, the Empires are not "cowed" by CONCORD - the Empires MADE CONCORD, and said organization takes a dim view of the pirate factions for a long list of very good reasons. None of the Empires are in any way perfect, they are all defined among other things by the fact that they have limits and borders they are very loathe to cross, and that as individual entities they are honorable and civilized to a fault despite of and partially due to, their individual flavor. There are many endearing and forgiving attributes to balance the relatively few dark spots on the Empires, there are few endearing attributes to the host of dark shades to the outlawed factions.

*I could swear I've read of this or heard of it somewhere but can't recall where, take this with a bit of salt.

@Vincent:

I disagree to your assessment of the Serpentis but I'm not rich on time right now. I'll respond to this a bit later.
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