Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Makkal on 18 Jul 2012, 22:42
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I was rewatching Tru Blood, a show about vampires, and there was a discussion about Jessie having to re-lose her 'virginity' every time she had sex. She was a virgin when she was turned into a vampire, her hyman was intact, and because her vampiric powers auto-heal her injuries, her hyman will always grow back after she has sex.
Turning to female capsuleers -- one's clones would be naturally free of injuries, which could mean female capsuleers might have intact hymans whenever they're podded and switch clones. Yes, injuries can be placed on the clone by workers, hence the various scars we see, but I'd be hesitant to ask someone to fiddle around with my clones genitals.
What do you all think?
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I believe there was a reference to some random un-named capsuleer in an EON chronicle who liked getting podded for the reason of taking advantage of her fresh and not-used-to-things nerves exaggerating sensations.
I would assume that the particular 'issue' you bring up is entirely dependent on the amount of money one is spending on their clones. Higher-quality ones may have small details like that taken into account, lower-quality clones may not. Also remember that many clones are made out of cadavers and then sculpted from there - in which case reconstructive surgery or manipulation would be required for such a thing.
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Presumably, I must wonder what is stopping it from growing back during sex ... That strikes me as rather painful.
I'll echo Morwen in that it generally depends on the quality of the clone. Capsuleers generally have the highest clone qualities available, so it may be a 'feature' that can be added on.
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Well it may depend on the "how" a clone is made, also. If you grow the clone like you grow a human (in an accelerated way), you obviously have that feature grown with it naturally. If that is something else more like "organic sewing" where you take proteins and stuff and start to put them together to make some kind of homunculus... Well, it may not be a standard feature then.
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creepy
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What the hell
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I was rewatching Tru Blood, a show about vampires, and there was a discussion about Jessie having to re-lose her 'virginity' every time she had sex. She was a virgin when she was turned into a vampire, her hyman was intact, and because her vampiric powers auto-heal her injuries, her hyman will always grow back after she has sex.
Turning to female capsuleers -- one's clones would be naturally free of injuries, which could mean female capsuleers might have intact hymans whenever they're podded and switch clones. Yes, injuries can be placed on the clone by workers, hence the various scars we see, but I'd be hesitant to ask someone to fiddle around with my clones genitals.
What do you all think?
I think I'm glad I never got into that show, and that worrying about whether the clone technicians will recreate a small flap of skin within the vagina to meet a capsuleer's exacting specifications says more about that capsuleer than it does about anything else.
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creepy
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I'm used to playing that you have a "clone profile" for your so-called clones where you get to specify all the personal tailoring you require. That's used by the people shaping the osteoplast, sculpting the soft tissues, tinting the skin and applying any scars or marks that you prefer.
I expect that after the first time you've found yourself in a body with some random vulva-and-vagina configuration you might realise you actually have preferences, and put them in your profile for next time.
I suspect I could also have many roleplayers tensing protectively by speculating on the attitudes of the different EVE cultures to male circumcision.
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NO! NO CIRCUMCISION IN MY EVE!
/me runs away with fingers in ears while shouting "lalalala"
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I just personally don't take my EVE RP to that level of detail, because it's kind of :eek:.
YMMV, of course.
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I suspect I could also have many roleplayers tensing protectively by speculating on the attitudes of the different EVE cultures to male circumcision.
Not me, but :lol: for the mental image.
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I just personally don't take my EVE RP to that level of detail, because it's kind of :eek:.
YMMV, of course.
You've never wondered about whether the Amarrians' forebears were "People of the Book" staunchly defending circumcision as a sign of their covenant with God as His chosen people? And what that would mean for slaves during their Reclaiming? Do you circumcise slaves to show they're on the way, or do you save that as a sign for those who've made it? Either way, what does that do to cultural memes/gossip/fetishes within the Empire? And is there a "Foreskins for Freedom!" movement among those who've escaped slavery?
Never?
Really?
(Don't worry: I feel "Meh" about most ship-fitting discussions. One player's :eek: can be another player's "Oooh, that sounds interesting".)
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Nope. And ship fittings almost always bore me the same way, yay for industrial (or, even better, freighter) pilots!
However, if anybody wants to talk about the implications of quantum computing on New Eden cryptography and whether our codebreaker modules work because the pirate factions still use asymmetric crypto but the empire factions don't and that's why we can't track down and hack their facilities, I'll be over in the corner with a bottle of good whiskey and two glasses.
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Nope. And ship fittings almost always bore me the same way, yay for industrial (or, even better, freighter) pilots!
However, if anybody wants to talk about the implications of quantum computing on New Eden cryptography and whether our codebreaker modules work because the pirate factions still use asymmetric crypto but the empire factions don't and that's why we can't track down and hack their facilities, I'll be over in the corner with a bottle of good whiskey and two glasses.
(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7503/1297301320123.jpg)
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Sometimes it'd be nice to have a matchmaking feature here for people who find certain aspects of the game intriguing and wouldn't mind finding other people to be a) simpatico collaborators in world-building, or b) opponents of sufficient worth to goad them into laying out how any right-minded person would see things. Both can be very valuable.
Casi, if Ulf were still around I might try to throw you two together for that crypto chat.
Going back to the original topic, one of the underlying trouble patches is the unresolved stuff about "clones". Are they grown, fabricated, or some combination, like being fabricated and then doped with aggressive donor DNA? Does it vary depending on how much you pay? Why would you choose a customised generic-blank body over a purpose-built one? What are our ones like? I remember reading the Cromeaux Inc. article on cloning (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cloning) closely once, and thinking "Oh, they're A. No, they're B. No, they're A. No.... I don't know what they are."
If you somehow managed to force-grow a true clone body to adulthood, yes, I assume the body would have an intact hymen and no scars, although modifying those could be part of the detailing done on the body before you move in. If the body is built from parts and biomass, what you'd end up with would depend on what the clone-makers could and did do to it, which I expect/hope would be something you'd have some input into as a customer.
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Nope. And ship fittings almost always bore me the same way, yay for industrial (or, even better, freighter) pilots!
However, if anybody wants to talk about the implications of quantum computing on New Eden cryptography and whether our codebreaker modules work because the pirate factions still use asymmetric crypto but the empire factions don't and that's why we can't track down and hack their facilities, I'll be over in the corner with a bottle of good whiskey and two glasses.
(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7503/1297301320123.jpg)
Goddamnit Ghost... where do you come up with these!?
Also, that sounds like a really neat little thing to look into >_>
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I believe there was a reference to some random un-named capsuleer in an EON chronicle who liked getting podded for the reason of taking advantage of her fresh and not-used-to-things nerves exaggerating sensations.
I wrote that. The entire chron was about that, actually. It was called Addiction.
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(http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/14000000/DEBB-jessica-hamby-14011796-1203-1593.jpg)
*spray*
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You guys need to read Herko's 'The Poddin' Don't Hurt'.
All kinds of things are new when your clone is fresh.
One day, I hope Aldrith will forgive me for showing up to his wedding in an hours-old clone, excusing myself to go to the bathroom, and having a literally bloody incident full of screaming as I pushed a load of gourmet cuisine through a never-before-used set of intestines...during the reception.
The efforts of the multitudes present to hush the incident up for the Dear Old Cardinal were very much appreciated.
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Mata recommends sipping a spirulina/blue-green-algae smoothie, a good stretching regime, and then some hard physical work. You'll feel uncoordinated as anything to start with, but you need to get through that and make sure your nerve-mappings are right.
But yes, the whole routine and ritual of adapting to a new body is something some podders do interestingly.
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What the hell is that fuss about circumcision ? Don't tell me there is something like that in Amarr PF... :bash:
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There is not.
It is just the Space Yew thing that suggests it.
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While "People of the Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book)" has a technical meaning in Islam, I was using it as it's used locally; to wave non-specifically in the general direction of the religions which draw on the Tanakh/Old Testament and (more or less) acknowledge the Abrahamic covenant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_%28biblical%29#Abrahamic_covenant).
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Ok I see... But what does it has to do with Eve ? :confused:
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Probably nothing.
The example was a string of possible leaps of world-building, starting from a weak (but fascinating!) initial assumption.
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And to think people went o.O at my suggestion that the Udorian Recognition Method might matter in RP. :eek:
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I imagine all manor of physical proclivities and eccentric (or normal) options are available to capsuleers with the right money.
IE There's probably a lot of 'ron jeremy' options for male clone contracts, and I'm sure an assortment of female modifications they can make during a sculpt/grow.
This would also include all manor of fetishes, etc.
Not an RP area that interests me but I don't see it outside the realm of possibilities in this fictional universe.
The thing with everyone being able to look they way they want though, is that 'standard' ideals of beauty would quickly be destroyed.
If everyone can look 'perfect' then it has no meaning, as it used to be only a few who could be that beautiful.
I'd imagine you'd quickly, particularly with the Federation, have a super-wide assortment of what 'attractive' is.
So IE maybe this year being 'heavy' is in and all the popular capsuleers are getting plus-sized models. Or maybe next year everyone's into big ears.
Who knows.
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There are 'universally attractive' things that are part of the evolution.
To manipulate those things through surgery will mean that there is a possibility that there is an evolutionary dead end in the horizon if the practice persists.
<insert family portrait of two gorgeous people with children that look like that escaped from Chernobyl>
<insert joke about yewish girls getting a nose job for their 15th birthday>
If everyone can be perfect... I think comics with Judge Dredd had a good series about this.
The pendulum swung the other way, being ugly became cool, having warts got people hot, you got cosmetics for that and surgeries.
It was pretty hilarious.
The modifications for the clones would be limited by what is legal within the nation that they are part of.
Age modification beyond certain limits, for example no jumping to clones of minors.
Any modification that would make you unrecognizable as the person that you are.
Of course in 0.0 there would be no limits, but you would not have any rights either...
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If we go back to the root cause of much speculation, it's that the clone concept was a bit iffy from the outset. They needed a way of death not being permanent and quickly handwaved the cloning process without too much concern for the details. This has had repercussions when they decided they wanted clone jumping and some kind of dumb console tie-in...
In terms of game design and how elegantly that ties into viable lore that sounds right, I wonder if ditching the clone concept altogether might have be viable. It could have been interesting if you had no clones, but perhaps your pod was much harder to target and kill than it is now. So, it would be unlikely people would manage to kill you, but there was a small chance. and that small chance led to permadeath for that character. You'd maybe have some kind of inheritance mechanic so you could make a new character with access to your late character's stuff.
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I'd rather see the ability for us to remake our clones entirely: in game mechanics terms, this means a racial/bloodline/gender respect, but for balance, you lose all your existing cybernetic upgrades (as they have already been implanted in your old clones).
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The problem with changing bloodlines is that according to old PF each and every bloodline had their own brain template.
...and you can't mess with your DNA, not with the clone tech of today...
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If everyone can be perfect... I think comics with Judge Dredd had a good series about this.
The pendulum swung the other way, being ugly became cool, having warts got people hot, you got cosmetics for that and surgeries.
It was pretty hilarious.
(http://clzimages.com/comic/large/72/72_58061_0_JudgeDreddVol125OttoSumpsUglyC.jpg)
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To answer the OP. I thought that before becoming a capsuleer there was an initial body scan to make a clone look like. If the subject does not have a hymen at the initial body scan then their clone would not have one in recreation of their body.
Also, I cannot find the "Addiction" chronicle. It sounds like an interesting read.
As for circumcision in New Eden cultures. I believe members of the Blood Raider Covenant would also practice ritual subincision, for the same reason that some cultures have done so, for ritual bloodletting.
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The PF is iffy on a lot of this.
If the societies in New Eden have such a high level of DNA manipulation available on hand, then they world's your oyster when it comes to made-to-order genetics, and we certainly wouldn't be seeing or limited to the standard binary gender or generic physical templates that are the results of evolutionary biology.
You could make your clones with 4 eyes, and 400 pounds with 6 breasts from the outset, as well as manipulating the corresponding genes for attraction and repulsion to include being extremely interested in 400 pound, 6 breasted people for procreation.
I imagine some clever amarr family scheming where a rival family gets into the dna-writing for a vowed enemy and has their next baked clone come out having an irresistible public fetish for matari boot leather or something *shrug*
As for circumcision and hymens, that just goes a bit too far down the RP rabbit hole for my personal internet spaceship interests :P
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I imagine some clever amarr family scheming where a rival family gets into the dna-writing for a vowed enemy and has their next baked clone come out having an irresistible public fetish for matari boot leather or something *shrug*
Except that the Amarrian religion is against any genetic modifications. :P
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I imagine some clever amarr family scheming where a rival family gets into the dna-writing for a vowed enemy and has their next baked clone come out having an irresistible public fetish for matari boot leather or something *shrug*
Except that the Amarrian religion is against any genetic modifications. :P
In public. What happens behind closed doors has in pretty much every religious society been an entirely different matter.
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I imagine some clever amarr family scheming where a rival family gets into the dna-writing for a vowed enemy and has their next baked clone come out having an irresistible public fetish for matari boot leather or something *shrug*
Except that the Amarrian religion is against any genetic modifications. :P
In public. What happens behind closed doors has in pretty much every religious society been an entirely different matter.
Fixed that for you. Hypocracy is hardly unique to religious societies.
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From a practical perspective, things like drastic genetic manipulation isn't all that feasible for roleplaying for the simple reason that it requires too much effort of those around you.
"Please, remember my character has six eyes, a transparent abdomen, and the strength of thirty Vulcans."
"What. No, you look like you look in your portrait because I can't be arsed to deal with all that nonsense."
It really isn't a PF thing. The Burning Life has plenty of mentions of baseliner modification and engineering, let alone what those as wealthy as capsuleers could achieve. But it's just too annoying to be around and handle in RP settings. It's the same reason many of us ignore android characters. We just can't be arsed.
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There was in PF, at least originally, a prohibition cluster-wide against excessive genetic modification, because that was the road the Jovians went down and it essentially ended their civilization. I don't know if that has been wholly retconned or what, but that was the reason why there was (at least back in the day) no wide-spread heavy-duty genetic mods.
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I think if we were to go by actual real life biology, and your clone was grown from a stem cell, then yes your hymen would regrow with every new clone.
They are not hard to cut though. There is probably some kind of cup that fits over the genitals and the anus while we are in pod. I can't imagine we would excrete and urinate into the same pod goo we would be breathing and presumably ingesting. I would imagine this cup contains some sort of device to cut through the hymen.
In EVE clones of course, these 'clones' are made out of animal parts and corpses. So, whether or not your clone had a hymen would be dependent on whether the corpse they used had one or not.
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In EVE clones of course, these 'clones' are made out of animal parts and corpses. So, whether or not your clone had a hymen would be dependent on whether the corpse they used had one or not.
They're made out of biomass, not corpses. Big difference. Biomass is a generic organic substance that can be grown into whatever is needed. It's closer to replicators in Star Trek, but obviously not quite so instantaneous. The biomass is used to grow the clone to precise specifications in a lab with all the parts desired. Whether this includes a hymen would be up to those specifications.
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Not sure if it's been mentioned but when I read through source it mentioned people modifying their clones appearance and even changing gender...
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In EVE clones of course, these 'clones' are made out of animal parts and corpses. So, whether or not your clone had a hymen would be dependent on whether the corpse they used had one or not.
They're made out of biomass, not corpses. Big difference. Biomass is a generic organic substance that can be grown into whatever is needed. It's closer to replicators in Star Trek, but obviously not quite so instantaneous. The biomass is used to grow the clone to precise specifications in a lab with all the parts desired. Whether this includes a hymen would be up to those specifications.
Possibly, but why does this biomass need to be made from ground up corpses and animals? Even plant material. such as easy to grow algae, would do. Vegetarians are still able to digest plant based organic compounds, and transform them into human/ animal tissue. You don't need smelly, messy animal based materials as a nutrient source.
Also, a clone is one of your own cells which has been cultivated into a genetically identical copy of you. It would be like your son or daughter, that is physically identical to you. Those cells would replicate into a zygote, etc. until it became a fetus. That fetus would develop from any nutrient material. Animal corpses would be too complex to digest, and feeding human corpses to a clone fetus would mean that every capsuleer is a cannibal. Even assuming accelerated growth, there is simply no need to use animal proteins or human flesh as a nutrient.
It's not just the 'yuck' factor either. Animals have to be fed, housed, shipped, slaughtered and processed, then frozen. Human corpses? Even more problematic. On the other hand, Algae is omnipresent, even in microscopic spore form. Edible blue-green algae can be easily and cheaply cultivated, and used to make food, plastics, fuel, and so on. It's much easier to handle, cultivate, deliver, harvest, transport, etc. algae, than animal based proteins, yet it contains ALL of the same organic materials (carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, minerals, vitamins, etc.)
Wood is rare in space. There are no fields of grass in space stations. What would the animals eat? True, you could raise them on a planet, slaughter them all, and haul them up to a space station, but that's an awful lot of weight to send into orbit just to end up as a meal.
Seeds on the other hand, especially microscopic spores, weigh a lot less but provide the same nutrients as meat. Eating human corpses, which is a privilege available only to those that can afford higher grade clones, has the biological effect of causing sickness and insanity. An example of this would be 'Mad cow' disease in bovines, and 'kukuri' or 'laughing sickness' in humans.
How is it that the Blood Raiders can be considered as heretics for eating human flesh, when in fact each and every capsuleer has done so from their very first day of artificial conception? Is this the reason why so many capsuleers are insane? Is this why the Amarrian religion hates clones so much?
The whole thing is just full of holes. I grit my teeth when I hear that clones are made up of 'biomass' animal parts (low grade), or human corpses (high grade). It makes me think of the Tom and Jerry cartoons where Tom would be sliced in half with a knife, and he was just all full of red stuff inside.
It makes as much sense to me as Wile E. Coyote running off a cliff and not starting to fall until he looks down and realizes where he is.
I didn't really have as much problem with the story of Chancellor Karsoth as I do with the explanation of how cloning works in EVE. Cloning, as it is explained in EVE, is unscientific, illogical, impractical, and economically unsound.
I am especially concerned with how it is spreading scientific illiteracy to anyone who is already unfamiliar with the scientific process of cloning. You just don't jam a can full of Spam into a human shaped mold, add some handwavium, flip a switch and watch a clone pop out. There might be a good explanation for how our spaceships act more like submarines, but there is zero excuse for this ludicrous explanation for how the cloning procedure in EVE works.
It's bad enough that there are people trying to say that the planet was intelligently designed, that evolution is a hoax, and that the world is only 10,000 years old. Why make up a completely different explanation for what a clone is other than the way it really works in the real world, as we have evidence for today?
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It's bad enough that there are people trying to say that the planet was intelligently designed, that evolution is a hoax, and that the world is only 10,000 years old. Why make up a completely different explanation for what a clone is other than the way it really works in the real world, as we have evidence for today?
I understand your rant, but putting a jab against people who believe differently than you was completely unnecessary.
To your questions; I could be wrong but I think EVE's prime fiction regarding cloning was written before cloning was actually anything resembling scientifically possible in today's world. Rather than retcon the fiction, they've simply stuck with what was originally written.
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I don't think EVE clones are really "clones" in the sense you're thinking of. From what I've read, they're more like sculptures - They're built from organic components, not grown. Fake tissue molded around fake bones, etc. Otherwise, we'd be waiting years for clone contracts.
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It's bad enough that there are people trying to say that the planet was intelligently designed, that evolution is a hoax, and that the world is only 10,000 years old. Why make up a completely different explanation for what a clone is other than the way it really works in the real world, as we have evidence for today?
I understand your rant, but putting a jab against people who believe differently than you was completely unnecessary.
To your questions; I could be wrong but I think EVE's prime fiction regarding cloning was written before cloning was actually anything resembling scientifically possible in today's world. Rather than retcon the fiction, they've simply stuck with what was originally written.
Well, there is opinion, and then there is scientific fact.
Opinion or belief would be whether or not God exists. Scientifically proven fact points out that there are fossils that are millions of years old. People are free to believe what they want, but believing that the world is only 10,000 years old does not make it true.
As Issac Asimov says, “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
Cloning has been around for a long time. Nature has been cloning plants for a billion years, humans have been cloning plants for at least a few thousand. Animals have now been cloned successfully in the lab for decades now. Dolly the sheep was cloned in 1996. I wonder how many of the CCP staff were born in 1996?
A sheep is a mammal just like a human is. The eggs and sperm are roughly the same size. It's no harder to clone a sheep than it is to clone a human. The only thing preventing the cloning of a human today are the courts and laws opposed to it.
The more a person reads into the procedure of cloning in EVE, the weirder and less scientific it sounds. Apparently, when we are downloaded into 'new' clones, the DNA isn't even our own yet. It takes a while for our DNA to 'set' into the new clone.
Really? So how is this a clone then?
Unless it is an organism which is genetically identical to the original organism, then it does not meet the definition of a clone.
There is no 'belief' or 'opinion' involved. A clone is either genetically identical to the original, having been grown from undifferentiated cells from the original, or it is not a clone.
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I don't think EVE clones are really "clones" in the sense you're thinking of. From what I've read, they're more like sculptures - They're built from organic components, not grown. Fake tissue molded around fake bones, etc. Otherwise, we'd be waiting years for clone contracts.
Yes, this is what I thought. However, it still sounds silly to me.
Cells are microscopic, and are thus easier to store and transport than animal and human corpses, even in a gelatinous 'biomass' form. It's not possible with today's science, but in the world of EVE it is conceivable that a cluster of cells could have their growth accelerated from fetus to adult sized within a few short years. Muscles could be kept from atrophying through electrical stimulation (it's not as though capsuleers ever use their muscles, though.) Several clones could be kept on stand-by, such as clothes in a closet.
Artificial flesh sculpted around artificial bones and so forth sounds like a lot more work than simply letting a fetus grow to maturity. It's like the difference between letting your cat get pregnant, and trying to build a kitten yourself. Even if it were possible, which one makes more sense?
Also, that creature would not be a clone, but more like a golem.
Frankenstein's monster was a golem. He was a collection of dead bodies, stitched together like a quilt, and then brought back to life with electricity. Of course, as any Amarrian could tell you, Frankenstein's monster was a soul-less abomination that had to be destroyed. Capsuleers for that matter, are also a soul-less abomination.
The idea of soul transference from one body to another has many interesting implications. The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.
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In EVE clones of course, these 'clones' are made out of animal parts and corpses. So, whether or not your clone had a hymen would be dependent on whether the corpse they used had one or not.
They're made out of biomass, not corpses. Big difference. Biomass is a generic organic substance that can be grown into whatever is needed. It's closer to replicators in Star Trek, but obviously not quite so instantaneous. The biomass is used to grow the clone to precise specifications in a lab with all the parts desired. Whether this includes a hymen would be up to those specifications.
Possibly, but why does this biomass need to be made from ground up corpses and animals? Even plant material. such as easy to grow algae, would do. Vegetarians are still able to digest plant based organic compounds, and transform them into human/ animal tissue. You don't need smelly, messy animal based materials as a nutrient source.
Also, a clone is one of your own cells which has been cultivated into a genetically identical copy of you. It would be like your son or daughter, that is physically identical to you. Those cells would replicate into a zygote, etc. until it became a fetus. That fetus would develop from any nutrient material. Animal corpses would be too complex to digest, and feeding human corpses to a clone fetus would mean that every capsuleer is a cannibal. Even assuming accelerated growth, there is simply no need to use animal proteins or human flesh as a nutrient.
I agree, but the lore is biomass instead of growing from a single cell. There's also lore about appareance alterations involving actually stealing faces from people instead of just simple cosmetic surgery.
That's all rather silly to me, but that's what we have. The only way I can see the biomass thing working is just that they break it down into the most basic chemical components and build up the clone atom by atom, protein by protein. Which seems like it'd be very inefficient for the amount of effort going into it.
It's that or they do actually take straight human cadavers and simply do cosmetic surgery on them until they're fitting the appearance desired. Which makes even less sense to me as that's not even a clone anymore, it's a brain transplant.
Wood is rare in space. There are no fields of grass in space stations. What would the animals eat? True, you could raise them on a planet, slaughter them all, and haul them up to a space station, but that's an awful lot of weight to send into orbit just to end up as a meal.
There is grass on stations. There are also lakes, seasons, and so on. There are even farms. Look at Gallente stations, or Minmatar ones.
Only the poorest sections of a station would just be a collection of metallic hallways. The higher quality areas look and feel identical to living on the surface of a planet.
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/qVOiFda.jpg)[/spoiler]
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/soft-passage/
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/spectral/
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I don't think EVE clones are really "clones" in the sense you're thinking of. From what I've read, they're more like sculptures - They're built from organic components, not grown. Fake tissue molded around fake bones, etc. Otherwise, we'd be waiting years for clone contracts.
Yes, this is what I thought. However, it still sounds silly to me.
Cells are microscopic, and are thus easier to store and transport than animal and human corpses, even in a gelatinous 'biomass' form. It's not possible with today's science, but in the world of EVE it is conceivable that a cluster of cells could have their growth accelerated from fetus to adult sized within a few short years. Muscles could be kept from atrophying through electrical stimulation (it's not as though capsuleers ever use their muscles, though.) Several clones could be kept on stand-by, such as clothes in a closet.
Artificial flesh sculpted around artificial bones and so forth sounds like a lot more work than simply letting a fetus grow to maturity. It's like the difference between letting your cat get pregnant, and trying to build a kitten yourself. Even if it were possible, which one makes more sense?
Also, that creature would not be a clone, but more like a golem.
Frankenstein's monster was a golem. He was a collection of dead bodies, stitched together like a quilt, and then brought back to life with electricity. Of course, as any Amarrian could tell you, Frankenstein's monster was a soul-less abomination that had to be destroyed. Capsuleers for that matter, are also a soul-less abomination.
The idea of soul transference from one body to another has many interesting implications. The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.
Like I said, I think the reason CCP went in this direction - Scientifically awkward or not - Was that the explanation of "true" clones, something you grow in a vat in a way more or less the same as a normal human would be grown in a womb, would take took too long to produce. Capsuleers would have to be sitting around for years after graduating before they got in a pod simply because none were ready yet. And considering the rate some people go through them...
Also, it's probably supposed to be ludicrously grimdark compared to the normal explanation one would expect, which CCP loves doing. Portraying Transhumanism as something grotesque and alien, rather then palatable, is one the core ideas of the setting.
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I agree, but the lore is biomass instead of growing from a single cell. There's also lore about appareance alterations involving actually stealing faces from people instead of just simple cosmetic surgery.
That's all rather silly to me, but that's what we have. The only way I can see the biomass thing working is just that they break it down into the most basic chemical components and build up the clone atom by atom, protein by protein. Which seems like it'd be very inefficient for the amount of effort going into it.
It's that or they do actually take straight human cadavers and simply do cosmetic surgery on them until they're fitting the appearance desired. Which makes even less sense to me as that's not even a clone anymore, it's a brain transplant.
Yes, this is what I am thinking. I am willing to use my suspension of disbelief to consider that the whole thing was written from an Amarrian perspective, as a way to explain it to the Amarrian commoner.
The lower grade clones being made from 'animal parts' may refer to the fetuses of slaves, split into hundreds or thousands of 'twins' by separating the undifferentiated cells of the blastocyte/ developing fetus. A slave is, after all, considered to be an 'animal' by many Amarrians. It may be an animal that you love, like a cat or dog, but a slave is an 'animal' nevertheless.
Higher grade clones are human 'corpses' because they were once the living fetuses of free born Amarrians, who had to undergo a highly shameful and secret abortion procedure. The Amarrian position on abortion is not clear, but many of the world's religions consider it as murder today. It's conceivable that the Amarrians would also frown upon it. They do believe that flesh is sacred, after all.
I could accept that the word 'clone' is a misnomer, in the same way that not every tissue is a kleenex. It would be more like a mind transference into another person's body, and perhaps your genetic imprint could be injected into it to over-ride it.
I have no problem with believing that Amarrians would consider a 'clone' from a slave fetus to be an inferior substitute for the 'clone' from the fetus of a free born. Also, it might be necessary to have a lot of 'blank' clone bodies standing by, waiting to be imprinted.
Perhaps it is a moot point. It looks like CCP is getting rid of cloning costs. Personally, I would get rid of that explanation about how cloning works as well.
There is grass on stations. There are also lakes, seasons, and so on. There are even farms. Look at Gallente stations, or Minmatar ones.
Only the poorest sections of a station would just be a collection of metallic hallways. The higher quality areas look and feel identical to living on the surface of a planet.
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/qVOiFda.jpg)[/spoiler]
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/soft-passage/
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/spectral/
True, humans are going to want something resembling a natural environment to live in. Still, I can't see food animals being cultivated in space. If they were, I think they would be very, very expensive. Animals use up a lot of resources, spread diseases, suffer from diseases, produce large amounts of manure and urine (which can be reused of course), and are an awfully heavy thing to bring from the surface of a planet. I think any of the animals in a space station would be part of a zoo exhibit, not for slaughter and consumption. It's just too wasteful, and provides little or no benefit.
However, I did get a mission where a wily Caldari convinced me to deliver some genetically engineered livestock (cows) from one space station to another.
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I agree, but the lore is biomass instead of growing from a single cell. There's also lore about appareance alterations involving actually stealing faces from people instead of just simple cosmetic surgery.
That's all rather silly to me, but that's what we have. The only way I can see the biomass thing working is just that they break it down into the most basic chemical components and build up the clone atom by atom, protein by protein. Which seems like it'd be very inefficient for the amount of effort going into it.
It's that or they do actually take straight human cadavers and simply do cosmetic surgery on them until they're fitting the appearance desired. Which makes even less sense to me as that's not even a clone anymore, it's a brain transplant.
Yes, this is what I am thinking. I am willing to use my suspension of disbelief to consider that the whole thing was written from an Amarrian perspective, as a way to explain it to the Amarrian commoner.
It's from a Gallentean perspective. Cromeux Inc. are a Gallentean corporation, a division of Chemal Tech. Their only mentioned Amarrian scientist is Dr. Araham Keredin, who is described as an expert on mnemonic theories and psyche restoration (in other words he's more focused on the transfer process).
Also, Amarrian commoners are not stupid. They're quite well-educated. They don't need to be talked down to anymore than the average working or middle class person in any society. Can people please, please stop assuming Amarr is an anti-intellectual society just because it's religious, especially when the lore outright says they are highly educated? Hell, education is the main focus of the Ardishapur Family, who are the most religious.
The lower grade clones being made from 'animal parts' may refer to the fetuses of slaves, split into hundreds or thousands of 'twins' by separating the undifferentiated cells of the blastocyte/ developing fetus. A slave is, after all, considered to be an 'animal' by many Amarrians. It may be an animal that you love, like a cat or dog, but a slave is an 'animal' nevertheless.
Higher grade clones are human 'corpses' because they were once the living fetuses of free born Amarrians, who had to undergo a highly shameful and secret abortion procedure. The Amarrian position on abortion is not clear, but many of the world's religions consider it as murder today. It's conceivable that the Amarrians would also frown upon it. They do believe that flesh is sacred, after all.
I could accept that the word 'clone' is a misnomer, in the same way that not every tissue is a kleenex. It would be more like a mind transference into another person's body, and perhaps your genetic imprint could be injected into it to over-ride it.
I have no problem with believing that Amarrians would consider a 'clone' from a slave fetus to be an inferior substitute for the 'clone' from the fetus of a free born. Also, it might be necessary to have a lot of 'blank' clone bodies standing by, waiting to be imprinted..
I'd prefer actual cloning, just accelerated, rather than this idea. It seems to me like grimdark for the sake of grimdark. And Amarr really really doesn't need more of that, it's got enough dark spots already.
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It's from a Gallentean perspective. Cromeux Inc. are a Gallentean corporation, a division of Chemal Tech. Their only mentioned Amarrian scientist is Dr. Araham Keredin, who is described as an expert on mnemonic theories and psyche restoration (in other words he's more focused on the transfer process).
Also, Amarrian commoners are not stupid. They're quite well-educated. They don't need to be talked down to anymore than the average working or middle class person in any society. Can people please, please stop assuming Amarr is an anti-intellectual society just because it's religious, especially when the lore outright says they are highly educated? Hell, education is the main focus of the Ardishapur Family, who are the most religious.
A well educated populace is an unruly populace. We know that Amarrian society is slow and plodding, with a rigid and feudalistic hierarchy. We know that almost half the society are slaves, who are only given as much information as they need to know to perform their assigned jobs. Why should the commoner be well-educated if his lot in life is only to do as the holder tells him? What good does his/ her education do if they are restricted in their freedoms? Could he use this education to make fertilizer bombs?
I don't believe that the Amarrians are anti-intellectual simply because they are religious. However, religion certainly does provide an efficient and available means for intellectual oppression and thought control.
It offers a ready made 'appeal to authority' argument which becomes the final word in any matter. Why am I a slave? 'God said so!' Perhaps this does not apply to ALL religion, but it most certainly does apply to a religion that considers slavery as one of it's main tenets.
Education and religion are not diametrically opposed. It has been the church which has carried the torch of knowledge throughout history, after all. The first Universities were created in order to educate the clergy. However, this is indoctrination as much as it is education. Ideas which were contrary to the teachings of the Bible have been hotly contested for millennia. By 'hotly contested', I mean torture, execution, prison, exile, etc.
Often enough, the only 'proof' that religion needs is that the only acceptable answers were already written down in a book which can never, ever be questioned. 'Free thinking' is actively discouraged, especially in a theocratic Police state.
Also, unlike the Bible, the Amarrian sacred writings are an entire library which is off limits to the public, accessible only to specialists. It's not a society where information is disseminated freely. So, not only can you not question the writings of the sacred literature, you aren't even allowed to read it for yourself. After all, knowledge is power.
If you want to maintain the order of Garrulock ruling the skies, Frisceas ruling the seas, Emperor ruling over holder, Holder over commoner, and commoner over slave, then why would you encourage an agricultural slave or a destitute commoner to try and better themselves through presumably free of charge state education?
I can imagine something like the Civil servants exams of Ancient China, where officials went from province to province to give intelligence tests to the commoners and determine who is most suited for civil service. A child protege of a slave might be tested and sent for special education if they were early bloomers in mathematics or music, but I think that education would be highly specialized and technical. A musician that can read and perform music but not reading or writing, or a scientist that understands chemistry, but has no knowledge of literature.
Consider the Ancient Roman schools for the free, and the schools they had for the slaves. The way they taught the free was the seven liberal arts. Liberal is a latin word, meaning 'Of Freedom'. The seven liberal arts were grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy. This was known as the trivium and the quadrivium.
The slaves were given a different kind of education, called the servile method. The slaves were taught just enough grammar to understand instructions, and just enough arithmetic to add up a grocery bill. Logic, rhetoric, etc. were considered too dangerous to teach to slaves. They were conditioned to sit still, facing the front of the room, keep quiet, and follow the directions of the instructor. They were assigned tasks to complete, the quality of their work was assessed, and they moved from room to room at the sound of a gong or bell.
Sound familiar? The Servus method is the one that is being used in High schools today. 'Liberal' has now come to mean something else, and furthermore, it has become a dirty word.
In the modern era, it was first introduced in Germany in 1888, where it was called the 'Schule' method. It started in the United States in 1908 when John D. Rockefeller said that he didn't want a society of poets, writers, thinkers and musicians, but a society of obedient, efficient workers. It is a form of education designed not to make people think, but to trust authority and follow orders without question.
I'd prefer actual cloning, just accelerated, rather than this idea. It seems to me like grimdark for the sake of grimdark. And Amarr really really doesn't need more of that, it's got enough dark spots already.
Actual cloning, at an accelerated rate of growth, is good enough for me as well. I can just ignore the biomass/ animal & human parts portion of it.
'Grimdark for the sake of grimdark' is how I consider the idea of using human corpses to make new clones.
You probably meant my explanation, but it was nothing more than a rationalization of the already abhorrent practice of institutionalized slavery. There needs to be some mental gymnastics involved to convince yourself and others that another human being is somehow inherently inferior enough to make their slavery justified.
Romans farmers would refer to their 'articulate' and 'inarticulate' animals, or in other words, the two legged talking animals with opposable thumbs, and the four legged, non talking kind. When a slave was released in Rome, they were said to have 'found their nature', i.e. woke up and suddenly realized they were human after all.
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The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.
but that's what they are.
it's even in the amarr epic arc - there's a plot to use special biomass, to construct a clone of a person, with a remote control implant in it, and the special biomass is needed so that you can't tell it's a clone.
meat robots, everywhere.
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The idea that our 'clones' are basically mass produced meat robots is simply too ludicrous for me to believe.
but that's what they are.
it's even in the amarr epic arc - there's a plot to use special biomass, to construct a clone of a person, with a remote control implant in it, and the special biomass is needed so that you can't tell it's a clone.
meat robots, everywhere.
Spam, spam, spam, spam,
Spam, spam, spam, spam,
Soldiers of spaam, invincible spam,
Made out of spaam, Immortal through spaaam
"Shut up! Bloody Vikings!"
(Also, spam meat robots with new hymens. Madonna has one.)