Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Anslol on 08 Mar 2013, 09:52
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Alright, I'm going to preface this with acknowledging that, ICly, Caldari and Gallente are at each other's throats and that any kind of alliance is a fleeting hope at BEST. But I still want to at least launch a discussion on this idea as I see dots connecting that may or may not be a sort of call for players to further drive the story through RP and in-space action.
I'm going to summarize the current situation of both Empire's before explaining my position on the situation at hand. Namely, could things be moving in such a way that the Caldari and Gallente may find a common ground to fight together as partners?
The State:
The Provists and CPD have been overstepping their bounds left and right, effectively stamping on the time honored traditions of the State and simply defying how things are run the Caldari way. Similar to how the Federation attempted to force the Caldari into submission with their political system and policies, so now does the CPD seem to be forcing a change in the State from an efficient and strong meritocracy, to a dictatorship that may force the State into civil war. In the meantime, The Great Overlord Tibus Heth is clearly not in a stable state of mind and is as racist against the Gallente as ever. Sure, harboring anger towards the Gallente for what they did and continue to do is understandable, but the outright terroristic extremism of Heth doesn't exactly help justify his feelings or actions.
The Federation:
A number of rumors had surfaced before the recent high-profile spats of Blaque Eagle operations regarding mistreatment of Minmatar people living in the Federation due to their being an "economic drain" on society. This despite the fact that the Federation and Minmatar have long been allies. Now it seems a rather xenophobic state of mind is beginning to rear its ugly head. After that, we see a number of public Blaque Eagle operations against an individual who was arrested. I am unsure if he was released. Top that off with media blackouts and propaganda being churned out laced with acidic anti-Caldari sentiment from "The People's Hero" Mentas Blaque, making a sensitive situation worse. He intentionally goads Blauqe on despite the current situation, as if daring him to shoot Caldari Prime. Even Roden said Blaque should be minding his own gods damn business.
So here is what I see: Two Empires being driven further and further into a war (by super nationalist/xenophobic organizations) that really does not need to happen and which could be solved via simply sitting down with two level heads, acknowledging the wrongs that have happened, and WANTING to start a new. From what I've seen, interacted with, and by some inference, many citizens from both sides are eh about a full scale war. Yes the Caldari are happy they got Home back, but at what cost? How much further must this go? How much further must Heth overreach before enough is enough?
The same for the Federation. Why are we pushing the Caldari so much? Why are we obsessed over punishing them for reacting to how poorly we treated them? Why are we not being a force for peace instead of hypocritical warmongers?
From what I see, there are two parties within both Empires specifically and continually pushing for war. A war that citizens and some capsuleers on either side just don't want anymore. Not ALL mind you, but some. Some would like to see a truce happen and negotiations occur. But with the CPD and Blaque Eagles touting the party line and villainizing the other side (and controlling all the assets to continue the war), the voice of the people seems to have vanished (in some cases literally, i.e. the chronicle where the teacher empathetic to the Caldari gets picked up by the Eagles).
So here's my question. Given these situations, would it be possible for players to drive the story arc for both Empire's parallel by both sides pushing out their respective belligerent organizations? Some Federal and State forces working together to stop both the CPD and Blaque, give them back their home, and just end the war?
I'm not trying to see things with rose colored glasses, but I am trying to see if both Arcs could be pushed this way by players. What do you all think?
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FYI: offering to work together with their enemies as a way conquering them with cultural imperialism where straight up violence fails is a time honored Gallente tradition.
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That's not what I was suggesting in the slightest. If the point was to just conquer the State, why not let them be and attack when they're weakest?
The point was to push our the racist groups pushing both sides to war, and have new, more level headed parties leading each Empire broker a peace deal.
It has nothing to do with sending them Quafe and Gallente Sports Illustrated Magazines to saturate them with Federal culture.
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/me takes a sip of quafe>
"No seriously guys, this time we mean it. Like, peace man, totally. Not like that one time we just wanted you to give us capsuleer tech or that other time when we made you agree to do all the work and then give us the benifits of tech 2. I mean we didn't want the State to be the only ones with Tech 2 armed Capsuleers. But this time we just want peace. By the way have you seen the latest holoreels from Villore?"
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Right, anyone have anything a bit more constructive to add?
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Why in the world would you want peace in your videogame?
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I-RED has worked with Feds in the past. They lost a lot of street credit though.
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Because the war currently has no point, as mentioned in multiple posts throughout backstage and probably the sentiment of other players. I mean what's going to happen, the war goes on til the server closes? A never-ending war because Heth got lucky with e-magic?
Also just because one story closes does not mean another story can't take its place. I just wanted to see other people's thoughts on my understand of the current situation and if the above described arc is how they could perceive events happening.
"No seriously guys, this time we mean it. Like, peace man, totally. Not like that one time we just wanted you to give us capsuleer tech or that other time when we made you agree to do all the work and then give us the benifits of tech 2. I mean we didn't want the State to be the only ones with Tech 2 armed Capsuleers. But this time we just want peace. By the way have you seen the latest holoreels from Villore?"
Which all happened 100+ years ago under a highly idiotic and very nationalistic government. Hence when I said more level headed leaders take the reigns after the people tear down the xenophobic warlords of their respective home Empires.
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I gave you my thoughts: the Caldari aren't going to go for it because the Gallente have made such offers in the past that turned out to be tricks. I guess you only want thoughts that support your idea.
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It's a game mechanic now. Welcome to the hell we get from incursions. It is never going away, no matter how much roleplayers might want it to.
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Which all happened 100+ years ago
False.
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I gave you my thoughts: the Caldari aren't going to go for it because the Gallente have made such offers in the past that turned out to be tricks. I guess you only want thoughts that support your idea.
No I wanted constructive criticism such as you gave here until your last statement. You were simply providing sarcastic jabs which doesn't help a thing.
But given the current situation faced by both Empires as highlighted above, do you feel they're really isn't some kind of serious commonality that can be felt by, not government officials, but the people.
At least to me, the way both arcs are progressing, it seems like the two Empires see they have something in common i.e. the forces pushing the two into full scale war.
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I thought I was being blunt, not sarcastic. If it's advice you want: do your anti-war thing within the Federation but don't poke your nose into Caldari business and expect it to be a plesant experience. I'm the polite, diplomatic one.
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I thought I was being blunt, not sarcastic.
I apologize, but you came off incredibly sarcastic and blockading the mere thought of the possibility.
Let's start over. My purpose in this thread is to determine whether some in the RP community see the current situation as I do and that there is a possibility for us to really influence the story. One Caldari RP'er started a riot and fought the CPD. Just one.
What could a few RP'ers do in terms of how the war plays out or ends? I'm not saying it would be easy given Gallentean stupidity, but I just want to know if anyone else is seeing these arcs evolve into one big potential for a game changing story?
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There has been murmurs about ending the Faction War / Incursion, but unfortunately that is a business suicide maneuver at present. Faction War is a big feature for a lot of players in low security, and Incursion has fallen in line with farming venues quite well. Effectively removing or disabling them will anger the wider community than it would improve it.
If, however, a storyline change could lead into new mechanics that effectively replace these features - then we might see a story evolution. A second iteration on both that gives them a new body and functionality while evolving the political landscape. I think perhaps the goal you want would be better received if you can find a means of selling it to a lot of players - not just story minded ones.
Otherwise,
It's a game mechanic now. Welcome to the hell we get from incursions. It is never going away, no matter how much roleplayers might want it to.
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Saddly, that one RPer just happened to be in the right place at the right time to be picked as the lead in a play already writen in advance by CCP.
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There has been murmurs about ending the Faction War / Incursion, but unfortunately that is a business suicide maneuver at present. Faction War is a big feature for a lot of players in low security, and Incursion has fallen in line with farming venues quite well. Effectively removing or disabling them will anger the wider community than it would improve it.
If, however, a storyline change could lead into new mechanics that effectively replace these features - then we might see a story evolution. A second iteration on both that gives them a new body and functionality while evolving the political landscape. I think perhaps the goal you want would be better received if you can find a means of selling it to a lot of players - not just story minded ones.
Thanks Ghost. I read a post somewhere (I think the Caldari Arc one) on here where it was suggested that the Empires sat and officially ended hostilities between the Empires Proper, BUT allowed a proxy war to continue by the capsuleers. That way, any possible incursion of one Empire into another's high sec space could be averted (i.e. Blaque going full derp and attacking the State). I think something like that would be possible? But then why bother with the story in the first place if nothing on the surface really changes and only lore is heavily affected...
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Game mechanics will always come ahead of story. It is just a fact of life.
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Ugh it just sucks. It looks like there's a great opportunity for some...earth shaking LE to happen and a story to come out but...GAHEMRHIMETHMERM.
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They could rotate the NPCs in incursions around...or just add other incursions on top of them. Pirate incursions of all factions all over the place! A step up from missions. You could even have the empires raiding each other via the incursion mechanic.
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Ugh it just sucks. It looks like there's a great opportunity for some...earth shaking LE to happen and a story to come out but...GAHEMRHIMETHMERM.
Yes, that fact is why I dreaded the release of Incursion when I first caught wind of its expansion. At the time I made the bet it would effectively end Sansha's story progression, and thus far it has proven entirely true in that assumption. This is good for other parts of the community, as actor resources are diverted to different sectors for their stories. Since the incarnation of the second live events team, I've seen a general touch up on stories for all the other factions.
As for the end of hostilities between the Empires proper, I don't recall that ever really being made out. The Faction War was put in place by CONCORD to stop all out war, but the Empires escalated how much they bite each others' heels. CONCORD is doing a lot of political dickery in order to stop a melt-down of intergalactic relations into a chain reaction event. Once the Empires lose their shit and go at it, the Pirate Factions will jump all over them. Welcome to Thunderdome, New Eden edition.
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I am going to leave this here... Fed-State RP Writing the Future (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5029)
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As I've said IC'ly via Sak, the only way the two empires will be able to work together as individual entities are for the following conditions to be met:
1) Luminaire, the entire system, as a DMZ. No FedNav or CalNav presence at all in the system to threaten the other side.
2) An external threat, so that the leaders of both empires can do the political calculus that "it's better to team up and beat this threat than both go down to said threat". This would provide the critical motivation for people to team up with traditional rivals and enemies - see the US and Russian cooperation during WW2 as a likely example of how such an arrangement might arise (and how quickly it could also fall apart).
3) A secure path from the State directly to Luminaire, so that we don't effectively have an EVE version of Berlin occur, where a bisected city is an enclave within the territory of only a single power, and thus liable to blockade. Not that the Fed would do such a thing... :P
4) Trade. Lots of it. The kind that forges deep economic interdependence and makes going to war very risky economically, and helps the two cultures interact and get to know each other as real people rather than "the enemy population".
Any of these four (or other, similar options) would help advance the cause of peace. Ultimately, the Fed needs to respect the fact that for peace, lasting peace to occur, Caldari Prime must be owned by the government of the Caldari people. Anything less than that will not lead to a peaceful relationship between the two empires.
Ultimately, it's not out of the realm of possibility for the two empires to... not merge, but be superceeded by a supranational entity. A RL example would be France and Germany, two historical adversaries, helping found and develop the EU. In time, the EU might develop to the point where member states act less like nations, and more like US states behave within the US federal system. Giving up sovereignty to become part of something greater is a very tough move, especially for nations that have been around for centuries, and this includes the Caldari and Gallente empires in EVE.
However, it is possible, as long as there's a real willingness to address the grievances on both sides of the divide.
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Not a bad list of options Sakura, but they will not be met in-game. Not because CCP will never let them due to game-mechanics (though this is ofc the nr1 reason atm) but because there are several factors in the way of your ideas here.
1. Luminaire as a DMZ will have to be agreed on by the entire Federal population of the system for the governments to agree on pushing it as an option and then bringing it up to the Senate and then becoming reality. They are extremely unlikely to like the idea, but it's not impossible.
2. So far it seems Sansha's nation has not been enough to form a mutual pact. The war still rages on despite the incursions. Ofc this is, again, game-mechanics' fault. Incursions will have to be evolved into something else, something far worse for the outsider enemy idea to kick in. That or the other pirate factions or even a whole new danger starts working up. Another small, but possible fix.
3. Given combined history, the only 'secure path' the Fed will ever likely agree with is using the existing gates as a highway-to-Luminaire from the State's border overseen by Fed-navy ships and constantly patrolled, with heavy limits to how many and what kind of ships get to move about at a time. This might be agreeable to both sides, but it will require lots and lots of trust that is not likely to exist atm. Another possible future option, though.
4. This one will never happen. It simply won't. The Fed prides itself on having a powerful and integral trade network that spans the whole Fed and keeps the economy on the level of being the de-facto most powerful one in the cluster. Becoming dependent on another faction for their economy to run is never going to happen, it will never be accepted, much like the State won't accept not having Caldari Prime. Worse is, it's not just trade. The Fed prides itself on being 100% independent on everything, end of story. I foresee no way this will change unless CCP retcons the Fed into something entirely different than what they are.
Also, note that the State is not the 'government of the Caldari people' they are the government of all the Caldari of the State, and that's it. I don't know how many percentages of the total Caldari population resides in the State but it is by far not all of them, a great deal of Caldari still reside in the Fed and a huge number of those live on Caldari Prime. The Caldari Prime situation is effectively a great deal of Federal Caldari (among other people) occupied by a non-Federal power who happen to be Caldari as well. The State may claim that they are the only real representatives of the entire race, but this claim is not even remotely true, no matter how hard the State's people wish it was true.
Thus technically from the Fed perspective Caldari Prime as a planet were under the control of "The Caldari" to begin with, as in it was the lawfully owned land of all the various Caldari Nations on the planet and everyone else who live there. Saying to the State that they may have the planet is likely going to be completely unacceptable because that's legitimizing the hostile take-over of Federation member-Nation's land - as a huge alliance, it's not a good idea to out-right ignore the practical theft of alliance members' property, it defeats the point of having the alliance in the first place.
It might be possible for CCP to create a situation where the State and Federation co-exists and the State get's the property they effectively abandoned a long time ago back, but it will require a long time of careful and slow dealings to get us through this highly complicated situation and to that point, without effectively displaying the Fed as utterly weak-sauce pushovers who will cave in on their own principles whenever convenient to them, but hey, not like the Fed has not got a good wack if the incompetent stick before... :psyccp:
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1) Indeed, not to mention the State's leadership (be it Heth, the CEP, the Megas, w/e) would have to agree to this proposal, which they're not guaranteed to do.
2) Basically yes, until the threat becomes large enough to threaten the very existence of the Fed or the State, you'll see traditional "us vs. them" attitudes prevail. As it stands now, these are minor incursions, annoyances in the grand scheme of things. If anyone wants a good example in fiction of the difference, I recommend Mass Effect 2 versus Mass Effect 3.
3) Indeed.
4) This is actually where I disagree a bit - I would argue that the Fed's desire for peace and expansion of their cultural norms of democracy and all that would override their desire to be self-sufficient. Especially if this interdependence also affected the Caldari, and would force them to think about the potential damage to their economy should hostilities arise. Again, to use another real-world example, look at France and Germany - who could imagine these two powers going to war in this day and age? Yet, from the late 1800's to 1945, there were three major wars between the powers. Trade and cultural exchange are big drivers in making peace possible, and I think the Gallente would be willing to embrace this, mainly for strategic reasons.
With regards to Federal Caldari owning the territory of the planet, and how the Fed wouldn't throw them under the bus for peace, I don't know about that. If their territorial rights had to be removed (preferably with compensation) for the Fed and State to come to a lasting peace that would benefit countless billions, don't think for a second that this minority stakeholder group would stand in the way of that. Besides, who says they have to be dispossessed - if the system is a DMZ, they could continue to hold the land, they'd simply fall under a different sovereignty than before. I think this is something of a non-issue to be honest.
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I don't think the Caldari and Federation need a single unifying threat to get them to come to terms for each other; neither side is particular interested in fighting with the other on the whole. For the Caldari, war is expensive and forces them to deal with a vast amount of overhead, not to mention the Federation is the most profitable market for their goods (probably few people than the Empire, but more people actually buying stuff). If they could get what they wanted without war, I suspect most Caldari (at least the Liberals and Practicals) would rather do so. For the Federation, the war is also expensive, but they also don't have much to gain from it either -- Caldari Prime holds no special significance to them (aside from being in the heart of the capital), trying to conquer the State will be even bloodier than the last time they fought the Caldari, and I don't think they have much interest in pursuing it for any other reason.
That being said, as I stated before, now that Caldari Prime is under Caldari control once more I do not think even the most peaceable Caldari megacorporations will be willing to give it up; the Federation would have to acknowledge their claim, and then there would have to be some treaty worked out either demilitarizing Luminaire and a path from there to the State or maintaining some sort of joint military deployment monitored by CONCORD or something (even though Caldari and Federation trust of CONCORD is probably a little thin at the moment). I cannot see the Caldari allowing the Federation to dictate the terms of their travel to and from Caldari Prime; there's too much distrust there from the Caldari side, not that the Federation would break the peace with an invasion necessarily, but that they would try to starve the planet out and impose arbitration restrictions out of spite.
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So I want to revive this thread following the tragedy that befell Caldari Prime and see what people think now about some form of agreement or working partnership between the Caldari and Gallente, ESPECIALLY now with the onset of Mega's defying Heth and assisting in fixing the planet.
Thoughts?
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Unless pirate factions are added to Facwar to open up new lowsec fronts for STPRO and FDU, the cal/gal war will not stop.
Much like incursions the game mechanics and LP machine is too entwined to the game, and would cause much tears if removed.
The storyline will bend to the game mechanics as stands, not the other way around.
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Unless pirate factions are added to Facwar to open up new lowsec fronts for STPRO and FDU, the cal/gal war will not stop.
The faction warfare mechanic is old and stale as it is now. Opening up pirate factions makes the most sense.
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This is something I've put some thought into as well, especially since the development of recent events. It would fulfill my greatest wishes to my heart's content (both IC and OOC) if CCP decided to end the war between Gallente/Caldari and instead installed a pirate faction warfare system. The new system would work much in the same way as the current system, but it would be Caldari vs Guristas/Gallente vs Serpentis. For once in a very long time CCP has developed the story in such a way that allows for a terribly long, terribly outdated cycle to finally be broken in favor of a new, more dynamic one. I seriously hope they don't screw it up.
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This is something I've put some thought into as well, especially since the development of recent events. It would fulfill my greatest wishes to my heart's content (both IC and OOC) if CCP decided to end the war between Gallente/Caldari and instead installed a pirate faction warfare system. The new system would work much in the same way as the current system, but it would be Caldari vs Guristas/Gallente vs Serpentis. For once in a very long time CCP has developed the story in such a way that allows for a terribly long, terribly outdated cycle to finally be broken in favor of a new, more dynamic one. I seriously hope they don't screw it up.
I think I'd prefer seeing a full out Guristas vs. Serpentis/Angels war with the Federation and State drawn into the conflict because it's not confined to low sec, null sec, or high sec "incursion hotbeds". Think of "Worlds Collide" (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Worlds_Collide) on a larger scale. :twisted:
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Shoot everyone.
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I'm picturing an Emperor's New Groove sort of situation.
Anslo: So...47 Serpentis and Guristas battleships, 28 battle cruisers, 30 cruisers, and 50 frigates. And they're surrounding us?
Pieter: Yep.
Anslo: And more of their reinforcements in bound?
Pieter: Most likely.
Anslo: /me deadpans. "Bring it on."
AND THUS BEGINS THE TALLYING.
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I, personally, like the idea of pirate groups actively recruiting capsuleer auxiliaries. As long as doing this and having access to pirate tech doesn't turn into too much of an advantage.
However. What about using the Rogue Drones as the unifying influence? As close as EVE gets to an alien invasion and allied to no human faction. As I recall some of the flavour texts on complexes in game used to make concerned noises about the growth of the hives. Have that threat mature and come to the foreground.
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The problem with that is that, a few oddball characters aside, no one is on the side of the rogue drones. It would turn FW into another Incursions.
The defining thing about Eve is that the whole game is PVP, and the PVP matters. FW is about as close as Eve has gotten to the tired MMO trope of "PVP battlegrounds: you can take this castle, but it resets after 24 hours". I'd personally like to see FW develop further down the route of having conquerable territories. Pirates-vs-Empires seems like a nice way to contribute to that. Right now, for instance, most of the good pirate faction agents are in 0.0. Wouldn't it be interesting if, say, the Blood Raiders conquered Gehi and set up their own agents there for as long as they can hold the system?
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The problem with that is that, a few oddball characters aside, no one is on the side of the rogue drones. It would turn FW into another Incursions.
The defining thing about Eve is that the whole game is PVP, and the PVP matters. FW is about as close as Eve has gotten to the tired MMO trope of "PVP battlegrounds: you can take this castle, but it resets after 24 hours". I'd personally like to see FW develop further down the route of having conquerable territories. Pirates-vs-Empires seems like a nice way to contribute to that. Right now, for instance, most of the good pirate faction agents are in 0.0. Wouldn't it be interesting if, say, the Blood Raiders conquered Gehi and set up their own agents there for as long as they can hold the system?
The Sabik already have conquered Gehi :twisted:
But +1 for Pirate FW.
This only works though if the LP rewards and ship handouts aren't insane. Or if the new navy BS are buffed to match the Pirate BS.
Because otherwise... whose going to fight for the Empire when you can just start farming Vindicators and Bhaalgorns?
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The problem with that is that, a few oddball characters aside, no one is on the side of the rogue drones. It would turn FW into another Incursions.
The defining thing about Eve is that the whole game is PVP, and the PVP matters. FW is about as close as Eve has gotten to the tired MMO trope of "PVP battlegrounds: you can take this castle, but it resets after 24 hours". I'd personally like to see FW develop further down the route of having conquerable territories. Pirates-vs-Empires seems like a nice way to contribute to that. Right now, for instance, most of the good pirate faction agents are in 0.0. Wouldn't it be interesting if, say, the Blood Raiders conquered Gehi and set up their own agents there for as long as they can hold the system?
The Sabik already have conquered Gehi :twisted:
But +1 for Pirate FW.
This only works though if the LP rewards and ship handouts aren't insane. Or if the new navy BS are buffed to match the Pirate BS.
Because otherwise... whose going to fight for the Empire when you can just start farming Vindicators and Bhaalgorns?
Hmm, sorry. I wasn't being clear was I?
The reason why I suggest using the drones is. Currently you have a two sided fight. If you run into opposed militia the only reason not to fight is if you are completely outclassed. I would prefer a situation that results in a little more variety of interaction than simple attempted slaughter or escape. I figure a decently set up external environmental threat might provide that. I guess this was the intent with the Sansha but the complication seems to be players taking the side of the antagonists and everyone else finding reasons to ignore incursions unless they are farming them. What if a drone raid takes over a system, camps the stations and gates and makes it impossible to use unless people drop whatever else they are doing and clear it? Better yet have the raids focus on the warzones with all those tasty PC wrecks for the drones to salvage and re-purpose.
Likewise starting up pirate militias would turn a fairly boring two on two situation into something a lot more complex. And I agree that pirate tech would have to be something other than an "I win" device.
Here's another thought. How about a CONCORD militia? Blue to all the empire groups, red to all the pirate groups. Maybe only open to pilots with maxed out security status? Possibly with better intelligence tools for locating targets and a free pass to all high sec regions, regardless of any previous standings?
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Here's another thought. How about a CONCORD militia? Blue to all the empire groups, red to all the pirate groups. Maybe only open to pilots with maxed out security status? Possibly with better intelligence tools for locating targets and a free pass to all high sec regions, regardless of any previous standings?
And access to CONCORD ships? Yeah! Especially countered with an expanded pirate system (see my previous post about allowing good pirate faction agents into conquered lowsec) that offered their own rewards to players signing up with it.
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Here's another thought. How about a CONCORD militia? Blue to all the empire groups, red to all the pirate groups. Maybe only open to pilots with maxed out security status? Possibly with better intelligence tools for locating targets and a free pass to all high sec regions, regardless of any previous standings?
(http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/3/4/0/8/6/7/a5333082-82-drooling-homer-simpson.jpg.png?d=1354032233)
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Here's another thought. How about a CONCORD militia? Blue to all the empire groups, red to all the pirate groups. Maybe only open to pilots with maxed out security status? Possibly with better intelligence tools for locating targets and a free pass to all high sec regions, regardless of any previous standings?
(http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/3/4/0/8/6/7/a5333082-82-drooling-homer-simpson.jpg.png?d=1354032233)
I think Lyn summed up my thoughts precisely. :lol:
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Bear in mind a CONCORD militia doesn't have to mean access to CONCORD tech, at least not all of it. Just intelligence gathering advantages might make the group attractive. Especially to bounty hunters. And open empire access would be a good thing for traders, no? Maybe customs regulations don't apply as CONCORD ships are legally extraterritorial from the member empires?
There would, of course, have to be a downside to all of this. Maybe instant expulsion if you violate any CONCORD regulations? So no shooting at anyone unless they are outlaws, suspects, criminals or fire first. Or unless you have kill rights or are at war. No pre-emptive ganking allowed. Loose the smallest bit of security status and you are out.
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I hate to drag this thread...back on topic(?) concerning the likelihood of Caldari-Gallente relations, but as a Historian in RL (focus on Europe/Central Asia), every little detail about how the CCP PF team has developed both the Caldari and the Gallente domestic political situations as well as the war+diplomacy makes me so fucking excited. They can do so much with what they have right now. And, if you'll allow me, I'll turn your attentions away from Cops vs Yarrbears for just a moment so that I can nerdgush a bit.
The idea of the situation — as it is NOW — turning into at least a temporary situation of Squid/Frog lovefesting is really not nearly as impossible as the RP community seems to think.
Public Opinion (oh boy I could write a book on Public Opinion — and I just might) is extremely fickle. Just as an example: the Matari reaction to their vaunted Ray of Matar getting capped at that Gallente/Matar event, and the RSS sent blundering into their best friends' turf? While all the RPers I've spoken to have wondered what the fuck CCP is smoking, I see it quite differently.
Basing off the RL historical record, this sounds completely plausible as a way for the Shakor government to keep the Midularist Sebbies from accusing his regime of benefiting from/not caring about her possible death. She IS, after all, still a powerful enemy to the Sanmatar's agenda, and he will benefit from her death(assuming her successor is less of a force of nature than she is). (In this hypothetical, Shakor would want to present an outraged, impassioned reaction: sending the RSS over the border as a token gesture of blind grief/anger— the Fed (and, as it happened, DED) says no predictably, so at that critical moment the RSS is not given the Pew-Pew go-ahead and returns. Shakor can now return to hurfing and blurfing without sparking hostilities with his primary ally, while enjoying tacit support from both the Sebbies and his traditional allies. The Fed will forgive it for now — because they need Matari support not just abroad, but also inside the Federation; how much of the Matari people live in the Fed these days? — and once this evil dude is brought to full, public justice, everyone will pretend like the RSS didn't do anything and once the fuss has settled down, all the repercussions will play out quietly in diplomatic concessions. Politics!)
This happens quite a bit in RL — US-Pakistan relations are FULL of it currently, France-Britain were doing this all the time Pre-WWI (mostly over colonies) and Pre-WWII, despite fully relying on each other to make sure each new German Reich didn't get too powerful, and oh godChina/neighbors at all times. Public Opinion becomes easily changed and manipulated with each new outrage and perceived betrayal/scandal the moment fast-travelling news becomes wide-spread.
But to return to Gallente-Caldari relations (and to explain why the above is important!), the Caldari are led by a Strong Man. Strong Men™ are not a historically good choice for leadership: they abhor anointing strong, competent, and influential successors (when they choose any at all) for fear of coups, leading to very limited political legacies. They tend to rule not from being the best choice, or by true, grassroots popular support, but rather because their cult of personality (and most do have one) has convinced everyone less powerful than them that they DO have popular support or are currently unassailable. Generally, they excel most not in administration or policy, but rather in making sure that nobody can properly organize against them.
Because of this, Strong Men have proven to be really easy to kick out of power with minimal loyalist fuss.
Case in point: Mid-1930's: German Generals travel to London and France, asking the Brits and the French to invade Germany. Yes, you read that right. The theory these Generals had was that if France (boasting the largest army at the time) and Britain (reputedly the finest Navy) invaded, the weak, pre-Škoda Wehrmacht would fall back, the German public would lose faith in Hitler's bombastic declarations of German strength, and Hitler's regime would collapse in the face of failure. The dissenting Generals would then assume power, negotiate peace, and Germany would return to a sort of 1920s situation again, which they evidently had much preferred. (Why the Brits and the French did not take them up on this plan has been the subject of several books by several scholars, written with gritted teeth and much exasperation. The Generals, on the other hand, would try to repeatedly assassinate Hitler during the course of the war.)
I bring this case up in particular because Heth is not in the unassailable position of power that he had when he first took power, raping female CEOs and whateverelseTGonzalezdreamtup. He now has to deal with a practically rogue Ishukone, and the sense I have been getting is that the other mega's are constantly looking for opportunities to passive-aggressively snub his agenda. They could easily take the place of the German Generals, asking the Gallente to provide that added push, while they use their infrastructure to spam the airwaves with messages of how Heth has cocked the situation up horribly, and just look at how his mishandling of the situation has let the Gallente invade once again, oh woe is me we ought to kick him out and replace him, with, say, that nice fellow from [InsertMegaHere]. I mean, shit, the Megas actually own the Caldari people as literal human resources. They've got opportunities the German conservatives couldn't have dreamt of.
Public Opinion is really that easy in the age of ubiquitous news agencies - people frequently assume that a foreign invasion is an instant unifier of divided peoples, but this is most definitely not the case. Time and time again, a sudden, seemingly-unstoppable invasion can turn initially fiery resistance into total demoralization and leader-blaming. For fucks sake, look at Nullsec. It's so common out there that we've even given this phenomenon a catchy name: the Failure Cascade. Because player alliances are built on their own public opinion, and that is exactly what breaks them.
People Make Politics
There is, however, the other side. Because even as the Public might be chomping at the bit to go to war/depose their leader/unfriend the Gallente on Facebook over a terrorist, when push comes to riotshove, it still comes down to the powerbrokers, the executive politicians, and the diplomats. And when these sorts of egotists enter the room, history teaches us that all the things we'd want our leaders to base their foreign relations on — equitable trade, sensible guidelines for aggression, the best possible national situation — go right the fuck out the window. It becomes a very, very personal game, with easy, no-brainer type deals falling through because two personalities clashed and someones jimmies got rustled. Someone's ego was bruised, someone suspected the foreign diplomat of stealing their pen — whatever.
And so, even while the Megas could depose Heth with Gallente support, restore peace, trade, and coldly-polite relations, it still comes down to the people in charge. Roden is a War President, brought in when the last guy let the Public down. He's got Blaque, the conservative nationalist heading up the secret police. These are liabilities in the Diplomatic corps. I don't know enough about the personalities of the Mega CEOs to comment, but I suspect that while Ishukone would be all over this sort of idea in a heartbeat (and maybe NOH?), the other CEO's may be a bit less than tolerant of having dinner with the Gallente.
TL;DR:
If you want to believe that the Megas are tired of having to bow and scrape to Heth, and are capable of talking amongst themselves to agree to some sort of conspiracy for a coup, and if you are willing to consider that the Gallente might allow themselves to breathe the same air as the Caldari for a few hours, then yes, there is a distinct opportunity for collaboration and cessation of hostilities.
In my opinion, both of these are very real possibilities in the current political climate, despite initial hesitations brought on by each politician's personal ideologue.
And furthermore, given the apparent canon influence that certain loyalist pilots and corps have in the Caldari/Gallente arena...Yeah, you chaps and chapesses can probably open some doors and ears.
Also, if you sped past all that and just read the TL;DR, don't you dare argue with this post. It will not end well.
And there are so many other options, I might add. CCP wont do anything for the time being, because why would they ditch Faction War? But, RP-wise, the ever-present Incursions, and the constant looming, quiet disapproval of CONCORD adds some amazing domestic and foreign pressures that makes me really, really hope that the PF staff have some diplomatic and political historians on hand for inspiration.
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That's a good point. You added words on the vague similar opinion I had on this.
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I'm sorry Creep. I was under the impression that the thread was expanding to include friendly relations between opposed groups as a whole, and was musing on developments that might allow that to be plausible.
However if people want to keep the focus narrow that's fine by me as well.
Other than that I think you make some very valid points. Thanks.
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Oh no, the discussion of CONCORD militia versus pro-Angel/Sansha/Bunneh raiders was cool too. I was just gushing a little.