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[Esna Pitoojee]

There is an Amarr storyline mission that sends you to destroy a Khanid envoy meeting with Republic agents in Amarrian space. The storyline is wut-worthy in and of itself (it's made pretty clear that neither of the parties are "traitors" from their larger factions), but due to how derived standings work you will probably gain Khanid standings for running this mission.

[Mithfindel]

How is this for "complicated & messy"?

Republic Fleet have sent me on missions to destroy structures that I am told are inhabited by Federal spies in Republic space, and are defended by Gallente Navy ships. And yet I have taken no faction or, I think, Fed Nav standings hits for these actions. They never happened as far as our allies are concerned. I am even able to cheerfully mission for the FIO and build decent standings with them.

Are there equivalent missions given out by Imperial or Caldari agents?

Oh boy. There's at least one Caldari mission where you shoot a competing Caldari corp. ("Cut-throat competition") The ships are tagged "mercenary", so no standings hits. The pile of Caldari tags in my hangars would probably look pretty dodgy, though.  (And of course, there's also a mission where the corp sends you to "retire" an underperforming executive. On top of all of those DED informants and spies we have to kill.)

There is an Amarr storyline mission that sends you to destroy a Khanid envoy meeting with Republic agents in Amarrian space. The storyline is wut-worthy in and of itself (it's made pretty clear that neither of the parties are "traitors" from their larger factions), but due to how derived standings work you will probably gain Khanid standings for running this mission.

Haven't ran into that, but might be an old mission? Because Khanid and Amarr haven't been always positive towards each other. (The Amarr datacenter rookie COSMOS thing has the player shoot Khanid activists, if I am not terribly wrong.)

[Vendrin]

Don't know if someone else has pointed this out, because long thread and i only pop in like every 3 years to post something... But way back when in 2006 when Vendrin ran APEX and was a liberal (go go economics, gallente aren't all bad) state loyalist he pushed friendliness with minmatar out of a dissatisfaction with the Amarr. He figured that if the Amarr ever get powerful enough they will just go all Pax Amarria on the Caldari and well fuck that. So fuck the Amarr, befriend the Minmatar to replace lost markets while weaning them off their dependence on the Gallente, thus weakening the Gallente, leaving both the Federation and Empire isolated.

That was all when I thought storyline or some stuff would change due to player action but  :psyccp:and I was naive and such.

I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.

[Lyn Farel]

I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.

I disagree, both sides have reason enough to be friendly with one or the other.

But otherwise that's what makes RP material for IC debates.

[orange]

I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.

Plenty of patriots are concerned about the growth of Pax Amarria.

[Lyn Farel]

Pax Amarria grows ?

Since Heideran and Doriam are dead and now we have zombie reclaiming Jamyl, it sounds weird...

[orange]

I suppose I should rephrase it to be the growth of the Amarrian Empire. 

8 years ago, the Kingdom was sovereign and now it seems to have made itself a protectorate of the Empire.  The Mandate seems to have lost the autonomy it did have.  To Caldari Patriots, who watched in horror as Heth placed the State in debt to the Empire, the seeds of being Reclaimed seem to be planted.  This is not a good thing to any of the Caldari political factions.

[Lyn Farel]

Ah right

[Vendrin]

I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.

Plenty of patriots are concerned about the growth of Pax Amarria.

A fair point. But the patriots (at least in my time) were more worried about the gallente cause of :caldariprime: then the true threat of the amarr.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The point about the Pax Amarria is that peaceful cooperation between Amarr and other nations is possible. I just think there are some misconceptions about how the Empire operates there, that lead to the idea that the State would have to be afraid of being Reclaimed (as would be the word that one would have to use if one feels threatened by the Amarr, I'd say). I tried to point these misconceptions out in some posts above.

[orange]

I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.

Plenty of patriots are concerned about the growth of Pax Amarria.

A fair point. But the patriots (at least in my time) were more worried about the gallente cause of :caldariprime: then the true threat of the amarr.

I think "in your time" there wasn't a definite Patriot organization.  I don't think CAIN counted/counts.  While it had/has Patriots, it also had/has Liberals.

Like I said earlier, LDIS is busy eating crow in Providence as I-RED is busy in Placid.

The point about the Pax Amarria is that peaceful cooperation between Amarr and other nations is possible. I just think there are some misconceptions about how the Empire operates there, that lead to the idea that the State would have to be afraid of being Reclaimed(/i] (as would be the word that one would have to use if one feels threatened by the Amarr, I'd say). I tried to point these misconceptions out in some posts above.

IC, the misconceptions are exactly what is played off of.  Just like the Patriots worry about the strength of the Federation, some of us have carried that forward to worrying about the strength of all the other empires especially with regards to the State.

It isn't about how the Empire operates now that necessarily worries the State, just like how the Federation operates now does not necessarily worry the State.  It is how the Gallente and the Amarr have operated in the past that worries the Caldari.

It is straight-forward for a character like Seriphyn or Andreus to say (yes I am putting words in your mouths):

The Federation is welcoming to all and we have learned the lessons from the past.

(And they are right for the most part.)

The very Caldari response to this is:

We have heard sweet words from the Gallente before.  The Gallente demonstrated they only have their own interest in mind!

This can be extended to include other "benefactors."

We have heard sweet words from others before.  They demonstrated they only have their own interest in mind.  You are likely no different than them!

[Nicoletta Mithra]

IC, the misconceptions are exactly what is played off of.  Just like the Patriots worry about the strength of the Federation, some of us have carried that forward to worrying about the strength of all the other empires especially with regards to the State.

It isn't about how the Empire operates now that necessarily worries the State, just like how the Federation operates now does not necessarily worry the State.  It is how the Gallente and the Amarr have operated in the past that worries the Caldari.

The misconception is, though, that the Empire did in the past uncompromisingly reclaim every other nation or people it met by force, without further qualification. Every other entity it reclaimed by force was, historically speaking, for one reason or the other weaker then the Empire, militarily. they didn't do it with the Khanid, who converted out of their own volition, apparently. When the Empire did in the past encounter cultures that were on an equal footing, they went for diplomatic solutions. I don't see why the State should fear that being allied with the Empire would lead to them being reclaimed, unless they think that it will somehow lead to them weakening substantially.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I don't see why the State should fear that being allied with the Empire would lead to them being reclaimed, unless they think that it will somehow lead to them weakening substantially.

The Caldari fear and loathe any culture which tries to subvert Caldari cultural integrity and national identity. They learned this fear through experience with the Gallente, who did exactly that. I don't think the Caldari fear or worry about the Empire one day attacking and trying to enslave them. In fact, I dare say the Caldari would favor an honest fight over the Empire diplomatically trying to merge the State into itself.

The simple answer is that the Patriot Caldari aren't worried about being the next Minmatar. They're worried about becoming the next Khanid.

[lallara zhuul]

The Republic and the Federation, at the moment, have a minority of people that follow the Amarrian Faith.

The State is 'just' an ally.

All it takes is a few millennia for the heathens to join the flock.

Because God is the Truth.

(Went a bit IC there, but it is a viewpoint after all.)

[Vendrin]

IC, the misconceptions are exactly what is played off of.  Just like the Patriots worry about the strength of the Federation, some of us have carried that forward to worrying about the strength of all the other empires especially with regards to the State.

It isn't about how the Empire operates now that necessarily worries the State, just like how the Federation operates now does not necessarily worry the State.  It is how the Gallente and the Amarr have operated in the past that worries the Caldari.

The misconception is, though, that the Empire did in the past uncompromisingly reclaim every other nation or people it met by force, without further qualification. Every other entity it reclaimed by force was, historically speaking, for one reason or the other weaker then the Empire, militarily. they didn't do it with the Khanid, who converted out of their own volition, apparently. When the Empire did in the past encounter cultures that were on an equal footing, they went for diplomatic solutions. I don't see why the State should fear that being allied with the Empire would lead to them being reclaimed, unless they think that it will somehow lead to them weakening substantially.

Because if it came to all out war between the current alliance of Amarr/Caldari vs Minmatar/Gallente, when the Amarr/Caldari win(cause of course they are going to win, am i right? {character perspectives ftw}) the Amarr will recover the quickest, having a larger empire, will benefit more from the fruits of victory (hello all you billions upon billions of slaves, we will put you right to work) and thanks to Heth's little stupidity own a significant portion of State debt. If it's only the Amarr and the State left, the State will lose.