Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Gaven Lok ri on 15 May 2013, 00:41
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I noticed today that the Dragoon has some really interesting figural art on the front of it.
I am attaching a picture of it. It shows in the first panel a penitent reaching up and in the second panel a saint in full glory.
What is interesting about this are two things:
1. It is probably the first image of a saint in full glory as a saint that I have seen. Its a really neat iconographic way of portraying the Amarrian religion's mission and view of itself.
2. The saint's halo is not a circle but a series of rays sticking out of the head. This appears in ancient art often, primarily on people associated with Apollo or another sun god. What is neat about it is that it says a little about the theology behind saints. IE there is a direct association with sanctity and divine light. Probably could read more into it with reference to Amarrian scriptures, but I am rusty on those right now.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Samira just pointed out to me that the solar disk imagery appears in other places.
Most notoriously the Khumaak: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/e/ea/Khumaak.jpg
This suggests to me that Amarr RP might want to play up light imagery a lot more. It suggests to me that the go to starting model for Amarrian religion should be Sasanian Zoroastrianism before Christianity. This has all sorts of ramifications, I may write them up eventually.
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The depiction of the halo as a set of rays rather than a circle is something that is quite often seen in christianity as well (here (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Madonna-Heiligenschein-Strahlenkranz-Blatt-Gold-Holz-Muehlviertler-Schnitzerei-/00/s/MTAwMFg3NTA=/$(KGrHqZ,!hIFBblCdUMwBQqR4G(NG!~~60_35.JPG),here (http://www.holzfiguren2004.de/images/6286jesukindsitzendaufkon.jpg),here (http://www.marienfiguren.de/imgs/heiliger-geist-mit-schein-holz-f52500-1.jpg) and here (http://www.pfarrei-klingen.de/pic/thalhausen/thalhausen_deckechor.jpg) for example). John is filled with light symbolism.
One of the most ancient christian hymns describes God/Jesus as gladdening light (Φῶς Ἱλαρόν) and one of the most important parts of the liturgy is the Vesper, which originated as Lucernarium and is oftentimes celebrated as such to this day.
I'd be cautious to place too much into this depiction. Solar symbolism is quite universal in human cultures.
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If battleships would have the same scale of details on their hulls, I would be ever so happy.
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The depiction of the halo as a set of rays rather than a circle is something that is quite often seen in christianity as well (here (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Madonna-Heiligenschein-Strahlenkranz-Blatt-Gold-Holz-Muehlviertler-Schnitzerei-/00/s/MTAwMFg3NTA=/$(KGrHqZ,!hIFBblCdUMwBQqR4G(NG!~~60_35.JPG),here (http://www.holzfiguren2004.de/images/6286jesukindsitzendaufkon.jpg),here (http://www.marienfiguren.de/imgs/heiliger-geist-mit-schein-holz-f52500-1.jpg) and here (http://www.pfarrei-klingen.de/pic/thalhausen/thalhausen_deckechor.jpg) for example). John is filled with light symbolism.
One of the most ancient christian hymns describes God/Jesus as gladdening light (Φῶς Ἱλαρόν) and one of the most important parts of the liturgy is the Vesper, which originated as Lucernarium and is oftentimes celebrated as such to this day.
I'd be cautious to place too much into this depiction. Solar symbolism is quite universal in human cultures.
However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see.
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If battleships would have the same scale of details on their hulls, I would be ever so happy.
Each Amarr ship a flying book. Do want.
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I love it. :D
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That's a very nice find, going to check the other newer ships/models out when I get back home now. It was a shame when they removed the little details in Trinity (eg the greek symbols off the Bestower), nice to see they're coming back in some form.
"By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
^ That came to mind as the most obvious scriptural reference to light when reading this thread. It's true that light references are common in a lot of religions though.
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/me feels strangely vindicated
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2983.msg44237#msg44237
:)
Also, there's around 4 or so passages in the Scriptures mentioning light. The Light of faith, a guiding light in the darkness, and so on.
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... Sasanian Zoroastrianism...
That's not a bad idea.
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Nice. Some frigates have similar things, but it's mostly abstract and less detailed.
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However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see.
I'm all for playing up the 'persianity' of the Amarr, I still don't think that the depiction here leads one to assume Sassanid Zoroastrianism. First, as far as I know Sassanian Zoroastrism was probably decidedly dualistic. The Amarr are not. Second, Sassanian Zoroastrism was tolerant to other religions within it's sphere of influence (safe for christians for some time, but that was due to political ties between Christianity and Rome). The Amarr are not. And third, Zoroastrism in general was (and is) opposed to the idea and practice of slavery, though the commitment to this varied. Amarr, quite blatantly, are not.
That said, the picture really only intimates some symbology in association with light. This, alone does indicate nothing. And even if we assume the 'persianity' of the Amarr as an additional premise (which we must, if we want to get with our interpretation into the direction of Sassanid Zoroastrism) then we have to acknowledge that Persian culture has far more to offer than merely Sassanid Zoroastrism in regard to religions:
The better part of the last two millennia Persian culture has been predominantly Islamic. Judaism, Christianity, Manichaeism, Baha'i and other religions all played a role in the Persian cultural space. Not to speak of all the variations of Zoroastrism itself, from Achaemenid era Zoroastrism, through Sassanid Zurvanism and Persian Mithraism up to modern Irani Zoroastrism.
So, while I am in favor of taking inspiration from all of these (as I did, actually) I don't think that the picture or anything else means that we should take Zoroastrism as a 'model of the Amarr religion'. Christianity, by the way, is in my book an equally bad choice. Just as any other real world religion.
I honestly believe it is far more fruitful to look at the PF and characterize the Amarrian religion in terms of religious studies and philosophy of religion, assuming that it is as unique as any extent religion, rather than starting from an already skewed viewpoint for the sake of familiarity. If people would more broadly adopt this, there would hopefully be less IC discussion turned into OOC attacks on RL religion(s). Also, I think it would lead to appreciating Amarr reliogion as something unique, which we really should, imho.
P.S.: It is most definitely a cool thing to see. And I would like to see much more of it, as well. As Adreena said: Every Amarrian ship a book/icon! \o/
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However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see.
I'm all for playing up the 'persianity' of the Amarr, I still don't think that the depiction here leads one to assume Sassanid Zoroastrianism.
There's also the fact that we have Sassanid names, though. Ardishapur for example... Ardashir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardashir_I), Shapur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_I)
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Ive been saying for years that Gotttii had always carved passages and images from the book The Princess of Pator on the hull's of his Amarrian vessels.
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However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see.
I'm all for playing up the 'persianity' of the Amarr, I still don't think that the depiction here leads one to assume Sassanid Zoroastrianism.
There's also the fact that we have Sassanid names, though. Ardishapur for example... Ardashir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardashir_I), Shapur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapur_I)
Ardashir was also a Armenian King (of the 5th century BC and thus even earlier than the Sassanids!) and the name is merely a more modern, westernized (from Arđaxšēr) version of Artaxšaθra (of which name we had numerous rulers of Achaemenid Persia). Shapur is similarly a westernizeded version of Šahpūhrī, which at least is first attested in Sassanian times.
So, should we then not assume that the Amarr are rather westernized (that is, probably, byzantinized?) Sassanians? If that's true, they would probably have been forced to adapt byzantine orthodox christianity, no? <,< Otherwise, it wouldn't be Ardishapur, but Arđaxšahpūhrī, no?
Also, the Name Shapur isn't exactly unheared of in the modern states that lie in the former Persian territory. Shapur Bakhtiar, the last Prime Minister of Iran under Mohammad Reza Pahlavi comes to mind. He was, by the way agnostic (heresy!). Or Shapur ibn Sahl, a ninth century Persian Christian physician from the Academy of Gundishapur. And Shapur of Bet-Nicator was the Christian bishop of Bet-Nicato who was martyred by his contemporary Shapur II for preaching against Zoroastrianism.
So, I think it's clear that the names aren't particularly Sassanian either.
P.S.: (Old) Sarum is the name of the site of the earliest settlement of Salisbury, in England. There's also the Sarum Rite of Christian Liturgy. Do we have to assume that the Sarum Family is a bunch of Anglicans, now?
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I'm rather sure you're putting more thought into this than CCP did.
Ardashir was the name of the founder of the Sassanid empire. Someone likely plucked it from a book or web article on the Persian empire and smooshed it together with the name of his successor.
They probably weren't aware of how other possible spellings, and even if they were, they wouldn't stick Arđaxšahpūhrī in the game because no one would know how to pronounce it.
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True. Maybe they even didn't go as far as to pluck it out of a book, but just went for something cool-and-persian-sounding. Which ended up accidentally (or by cryptomnemesis) to be Ardishapur. vOv
Still, even if they took those two names from a history book, that doesn't indicate anything for the Amarrian religion, just as the 'fact' that the Name 'Sarum' stems from the name for the first settlement at Salisbury indicates not that Amarr are Anglicans (or roman catholics, which the people at Salisbury were at the time the Sarum Rite originated)... <,<
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There are a lot of elements that make me think Sasanian elements in particular need to be added, Nicoletta.
Note, not that Amarr=Sasanians in space, but that we are neglecting the Sasanian elements in Amarr.
But I need time to make the case the right way, so give me a bit and I will do a post proper making the case point by point. Probably sometime this week. :P
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I always thought the Amarr is what happens when you smush all the monotheistic religions into one, let it sit for a couple thousand years, and then unleash it into space. Not just Zoroastrians and Catholics(which are both essentially 1 Deity vs 1 Demon religions), but also the entire, convoluted spectrum of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faith, and all the smaller, less-well-known single-God religions.
Brazenly against the concept of the existence of other gods (Polytheists from around the world have a strange tendency to reluctantly accept the idea of the existence of other gods than simply those in their personal pantheon, but strongly believe their selection of Gods to be the strongest and most righteous), often to the point of militarism, they have a tendency to believe in the idea of divine selection over inherent spiritual power (Saints, Prophets, Chosen Ones, etc vs Ancestor Spirits, Wizard/Witchdoctors, Heroes, etc), and, of course, organize themselves into a deeply hierarchical religious system.
Now give them pseudo-Persian aesthetics and a lot of phallic architecture, and voilà! Amarr!
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Uh, Creep, I think your analysis of Monotheism versus Polytheism falls quite short in regard to real religions. Also, no, characterizing Zoroastrianism and Catholicism (which isn't a religion, but a confession of the Christian religion, really) as essentially the same is quite off:
Ahriman in Zoroastrianism is a force independent from Ahura Mazda and (roughly, depending on the variant of zoroastrianism) on an equal footing to the latter. The devil in roman-catholic Christianity is a force dependent on God and subsequently of lesser power. Achaemenid and Sassanid Zoroastrianism were also more Henotheistic than Monotheistic and in many regards not even monolatrous.
And, did I mention, there have been plenty of polytheistic systems that were steeped in hierachies, like chinese folk confucianism (can it get any more hierarchical?), the greek and roman polytheism (the office of pontifex maximus is stemming from roman, polytheistic times) and also polytheism of the Aztec people.
Gaven,
as to us neglecting Sassanid elements, it needs little convincing. That Sassanid elements need particular attention (say, rather than Persian elements in general) would need some convincing, though. That Sassanid Zoroastrianism is a good starting point to understand Amarr religion would need a lot of convincing, though, as the two are really quite far from one another in their very basic principles, imho. But please, take your time Gaven, I'm looking forward to you making your case. :)
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Back towards the art end of things:
1, that bit of artwork -appears- to be an actual 3D model, not merely a mapped-on skin. Having done a bit of 3D modelling in my time, all I can say is dayum - that must have taken time.
2, since this trend seems to be bringing back actual literal art into the newest Amarr hulls, I'll be curious to see if the new Apoc model pics up any.
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Back towards the art end of things:
1, that bit of artwork -appears- to be an actual 3D model, not merely a mapped-on skin. Having done a bit of 3D modelling in my time, all I can say is dayum - that must have taken time.
It's not. The model is flat. But like the other artwork, they use bump and specular maps to make it look 3D.
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Yeah it would sound like a huge discrepancy to see so much wireframe details on such a tiny thing compared to the rest of the ship(s).
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This suggests to me that Amarr RP might want to play up light imagery a lot more...
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ly12lxBy7o1qgh0g5o1_1280.jpg)
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Morwen made these awesome screens of the paladin and apocs imagery:
http://imgur.com/a/5AULS
Figure and the sun in all three, the Paladin seems to be a different relief than the other two.
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And sleep deprived realization: The image on the Apocalypse is of someone receiving some sort of celestial body. It is on the Apocalypse class battleship, and the following is what little we have on the Amarr apocalypse:
"At the end of days when they descend
Watch for the coming of the Ark
For within it, salvation is carried"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 32:6
"Casting his sight on his realm, the Lord witnessed
The cascade of evil, the torrents of war.
Burning with wrath, He stepped
down from the Heavens
To judge the unworthy,
To redeem the pure."
- The Scriptures, Book II, Revelations 2:12
I don't really believe CCP is cool enough to have done this on purpose... but I am going to be RPing that the image on the Apocalypse is an image of the Apocalypse.
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I am also thinking that specifically this concept in Persian religion is a very useful one for Amarr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvarenah
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Apocalypse imagery looks like it could be an angel holding a fireball.
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"And in this moment of terrible distress the skies opened with a loud shriek and angels, bright as the sun was black, descended down to earth and their beauty soothed all the people and the animals alike.
And when the angels touched the ground with their feet the earth shook violently and fire engulfed those daring too near the divinities. Their power being mighty and their presence potent the people were wise not to look too closely upon them.
The emperor came from his high seat with his retinue to meet with the angels outside the city walls. And lo and behold! The moment the emperor passed below the city gates the sun cleared and shone as brightly as ever before, all in the glory of the emperor and the heavenly angels that called upon him."
- Chapter I of the Epitoth
Also works.
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Yep, heavenly intervention pretty consistently is a fire image.
I'd go with the Epitoth over the apocalypse stuff if it wasn't for the ship's name.