Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Aria Jenneth on 04 Jun 2013, 10:37
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Demographics of the Caldari State (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State)
So, these Evelopedia articles generally are a series of quietly-introduced canonical cluster bombs (the Gallente one really had me going, "What, really? How did you even keep that viable?" ... but I'll leave that for the Gallentean players to argue over).
After some consideration, I'm a fan. The article explains several important things that prior PF left major questions about, such as: "how the hell the Deteis and Civire are still separate ethnicities after multiple centuries of living apparently side by side on the same homeworld?"
Answer: the Caldari tend to pair similar-looking people.
There are several things that make me squirm (partly including the above), but I can't deny that they make a certain amount of sense. The Caldari may not be racist in the sense of "Caldari, Caldari uber alles," but they don't appear to approve of miscegenation and the only real basis for "race," at least IRL, is appearance (so their pairing of similar-looking people is "we're being careful not to cast them as racists" -ese for "they pair people of the same race").
Similarly, the Caldari sense of honor applies (this has long been kinda half-buried in the canon) only to Caldari-- though there's some indication that they'll hold up their side of a bargain, including their side of a bargain that extends their sense of honor to include a small outside group (client states such as the traditional Achura and State-resident Intaki).
I'd like to hear people's thoughts about this. To my mind it explains a hell of a lot and is one of the richest resources to come along in ages, but it certainly moves the Caldari a few steps further away from ye olde liberal democracy-socialized comfort zone. (My ethical programming is SO Gallente.)
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The "Caldari honour and non-entity indigenous groups": I would very much consider this a very good example of in-group/out-group thinking. Should they enter an agreement, the agreement is followed (with details depending on the exact mega). But if they try to ignore the corporate colony, the corporate colony will ignore them. Since there is a significant power disparity, this probably means that the indigenous population will get bulldozed if the corporation needs whatever they are living on. Should a megacorporation find a close equal, they might be forced to negotiate, but such things happen very, very rarely any more.
If you want to draw real-life parallels, well, look at the treatment of indigenous peoples anywhere. Caldari backstory might be influenced of the treatment of the Ainu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people) in Japan or the taxation of the Sámi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkarls) in Lapland. I do not know my American history well, but I am relatively certain that the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave didn't treat their indigenous peoples any less brutally.
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One of the things that I like about Caldari culture is the apparent discrepancy between State culture and regional culture. The State as a whole has a very meritocratic, uniformly Caldari feel to it. At the same time, the various member cultures retain their own identity very clearly. You see this a lot in the PF revolving around Raata culture, as well as things like the Tea Ceremony, ancestor veneration and the Deteis and Civire propensity to gamble.
I don't know if I'd say the Caldari tend to pair similar-looking people. I think it's more cultural, really. If Civire and Deteis maintain their own cultures, you'd likely see most Civire marrying other Civire and Deteis marrying other Deteis, simply because they prefer to stay within their own culture.
One thing I've always thought about the State (though the current "rah-rah nationalism!" thrust seems to be working against this) was that it valued culture above race. Mordu's Legion weren't attacked by the other settlers on their initial grant planet because they looked different, they were attacked because they acted different. This is fundamentally similar to the Amarrian idea of identifying other Amarrians based on their beliefs (rather than their race), and very different than the Minmatar tendency to identify Minmatar based on their race (rather than their actions or culture). In my mind, this distinction always explained why the State was able to ally easily with the Amarr Empire, and not relate well with the Republic.
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In order to understand the gulf between the Deteis and the Civire you only have to interact with some Caldari in RP, because the Deteis DO tend to feel that the Civire are a bit rustic and focused on the physical and the Civire DO tend to view the Deteis as being a little untrustworthy and machievellian.
And that's really all it takes. Civire are encouraged to seek out other Civire as life partners because they understand each other and are more compatible. Civire enclaves form within Caldari communities. They treat others who are willing to buy into the Culture of the State in the same way. They expect them to form culturally homogenous enclaves so long as adopt the wider STATE culture.
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In order to understand the gulf between the Deteis and the Civire you only have to interact with some Caldari in RP, because the Deteis DO tend to feel that the Civire are a bit rustic and focused on the physical and the Civire DO tend to view the Deteis as being a little untrustworthy and machievellian.
Pieter and Katrina make a perfect example of how the two can be like oil and water sometimes. While Katrina isn't machievellian, she is extremely unstable. Combined with her Deteis focus on the mind, rather than the body, this leads her to be quite unpredictable and overcomplicated... quite the opposite of the 'more simple' (and stable) mindset of her Civire friend.
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In order to understand the gulf between the Deteis and the Civire you only have to interact with some Caldari in RP, because the Deteis DO tend to feel that the Civire are a bit rustic and focused on the physical and the Civire DO tend to view the Deteis as being a little untrustworthy and machievellian.
Pieter and Katrina make a perfect example of how the two can be like oil and water sometimes. While Katrina isn't machievellian, she is extremely unstable. Combined with her Deteis focus on the mind, rather than the body, this leads her to be quite unpredictable and overcomplicated... quite the opposite of the 'more simple' (and stable) mindset of her Civire friend.
To counterpoint this, Pieter finds Katrina very mercurial and difficult to understand. Being bluntly spoken and straightforward he often manages to say precisely the right thing to rub Katrina the wrong way - when a little empathy would allow him to soothe her feelings instead.
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the Gallente one really had me going, "What, really? How did you even keep that viable?" ... but I'll leave that for the Gallentean players to argue over
How the hell did I miss these? Holy crap! The Gallente one has me salivating!
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The Chronicle New Horizon's is extremely relevant.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Horizons_(Chronicle)
For many years, it was the only source we had for these questions. According to it, the orbital bombardment and exodus from Caldari prime is the single most influential factor in modern Caldari culture.
Until now her only contacts within the Caldari State where Civire - she was used to their mode of thinking; straightforward, above-board dealings where everything was planned and perfected. She never had any troubles with timetables or broken assurances. Deteis were supposed to be different - more cunning, more underhanded. Other traders she knew said that although the Deteis were in many ways different they still shared all the basic Caldari traits with the Civire - duty, discipline and sincerity.
One hour later Runia undocked. Her new Deteis agent for the Wiyrkomi Corporation had been polite and to the point and shown no indication of being sly or untrustworthy. In essence, he was pretty much like every other Caldari she had ever met. Yet there were slight differences, for instance he had inquired about her home back in the Kingdom and shown genuine interest in all things Dark Amarrian. An inquisitive mind was not something she was accustomed to with the Civire, who were usually dull conversationalists. This feel of more personal interest pleasantly surprised her.
Runia didn’t know much about the history of the Caldari; she knew that Caldari Prine - the old home of the Caldari - had several continents and that the different Caldari bloodlines came from different continents. Back in the days when the Caldari still occupied Caldari Prime the difference between the bloodlines was profound, not only in physical appearance, but also culturally. Runia suspected that the beliefs that the Caldari bloodlines were very different from each other stemmed from these facts. But when the Caldari had to leave their home planet and the long and arduous war with the Gallente Federation erupted the Caldari race as a whole was uprooted and thrown into a melting pot were fighting for their survival was all that mattered. The frantic decades that followed altered the Caldari psyche forever. Traits such as discipline and loyalty came to the forefront and shaped - and continue to shape - Caldari society into something completely new. The corporate state came into being, an all-engulfing machine that both nurtured and dominated its citizens. All the different bloodlines, Deteis and Civire the two largest, were affected by these deep-rooted changes and molded to the norm.
The effect was that the Caldari thought of them as Caldari first, their corporation came second, with the bloodline they belonged to a distant third. None of the mega-corporations were structured around the bloodlines and they intermingled freely on every social level. Although the bloodlines were proud of their heritage they didn’t feel it was an important aspect of their life. Inter-marriages are not common, but this has more to do with physical differences than anything else.
-Before the war, the bloodlines possed profoundly different cultures but now but share a new one
-There were/are more ethnic Caldari bloodlines than Civire and Deties on Caldari
-Race (at least Civire vs Deties) isn't something the Caldari generally even think about
-Among at least Khanid the Civire are known for meticulous planning, attention to detail, dull conversations that rarely deviate from the business at hand, politeness, honesty, discipline and loyalty
-Some Khanid have noted minor differences between the Civire and the Deties notably the Deties' being more willing (but only slightly) to engage with them (outsiders) beyond what's strictly necessary to conduct business.
The fact that the defining traits of Civire and Deties in their dealings with foreigners (or at least the Khanid) are carefulness (read thoughtful consideration) and politeness it's no wonder that those of us early Caldari who used this chron as the corner stone of our RP see similarities between ethnic Caldari and the Intaki and Achurians. Ida, the central philosophy of the Intaki revolves around taking time to give thoughtful consideration to all ones decisions and the general tone seems to suggest that the Intaki are fairly reserved too. Similarly the Achurians are reserved, polite and interested in things like science and engineering which require exacting plans. Many Intaki and Achuria are spiritually inclined but not interested in spreading their beliefs just many Civire and Deties also are spiritual but keep it to themselves.
Also, since we don't see any other bloodlines mention anywhere else in PF I feel it's logical to presume there were so few survivors, even witht he tubechild program, that they've been bred out of existence. The fear of losing 'what was before' could explain the taboo of mixing the bloodlines especially if the Deties came close to extinction themselves.
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Catch of the Day (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/short-stories/catch-of-the-day/), too. That story didn't exactly paint a flattering picture of Caldari, but then again it's all from the point of view of Gaspar Anoun.
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Catch of the Day (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/short-stories/catch-of-the-day/), too. That story didn't exactly paint a flattering picture of Caldari, but then again it's all from the point of view of Gaspar Anoun.
Yes. The Ever-sueish Gaspar Anoun. Some of us, Mr Vandemar, are so sharp that we might. just. cut. ourselves.
Ho.
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There's already a thread about this on the second page of this board. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3838.0)
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That thread sucks. This one is where all the awesome people are!
The important thing to take from that article is that everyone loves the Khanid.
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Catch of the Day (http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/short-stories/catch-of-the-day/), too. That story didn't exactly paint a flattering picture of Caldari, but then again it's all from the point of view of Gaspar Anoun.
Yes. The Ever-sueish Gaspar Anoun. Some of us, Mr Vandemar, are so sharp that we might. just. cut. ourselves.
Ho.
You make me happy with your references.
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I'd like to hear people's thoughts about this. To my mind it explains a hell of a lot and is one of the richest resources to come along in ages, but it certainly moves the Caldari a few steps further away from ye olde liberal democracy-socialized comfort zone. (My ethical programming is SO Gallente.)
It's probably not only you. I think there's always been efforts both in the past and currently where the more negative aspects of the State as viewed through a modern liberal lens have been ignored to make it more "comfortable". I mean if a player wants something close to their modern comfort zone I tend to wonder why even roll a Caldari in the first place and go with Gallente instead? You wouldn't even have needed the current demographics article to at least get an inkling of what the State is like, just look at the "Dissenters" background for Civire:
The cold discipline of Caldari society does not appeal to everyone, nor is everyone happy with the stranglehold that corporate rulers have on everyday life. While not outright rebellious, dissenters nonetheless invest considerable time and effort in trying to change the system from within. The State keeps a close eye on these individuals.
Does that read anything like being close to a liberal-democracy. In fact the very use of the the term "Dissenter" implies to me a particular type of disagreement between authority and individuals. Did no one seriously ever ask themselves questions until now of, "Why isn't the cold discipline of Caldari society appealing?" or, "What exactly is the nature of this stranglehold corporate rulers have over everyday life in the State?" or, "So why does the State keep a close eye on dissidents?"
To me the answer is simple, because that background description has been fundamentally unchanged since 2003 as far as I'm aware the only conclusion I can come to is that those questions were not asked in favour of players attempting to put on the rose-tinted glasses with the State in order to try and reconcile it with their own particular Western mindsets. Hell, the only reason I find Ishukone so terrible these days is because it's the obvious product of those attempts to do so and which TonyG also seems to have fallen into, where the word, "Liberal" to describe the political faction means it's a haven of Cal-America with apple pie, to the point that it now looks like the red-headed bastard child Megacorp. preaching freedom, love and tolerance in an utterly cold and ruthless State instead of being the Megacorp. that just uses good PR in foreign markets to trick the foreigners to buy their goods because they can't get an acceptable market share in the State having to compete with much larger entities like SuVee and Kaalakiota.
It's also much the same reason where those same rose-tinted glasses failed to construct that while yes, Tibus Heth was no doubt trying to construct his own vision of a Fascist State with himself as the Dictator the entire rise of his power could be seen not only as being due to the nationalism of the New Meritocracy but that Tibus Heth, the New Meritocracy and the CPD was about the closest the State came to an "Caldari Spring" in which those dissenters, non-citizens and labour movements finally sought to topple a deeply entrenched corporate middle-class in the State which yes, probably was corrupt and self-serving.
The irony here being that player and CCP rejection of Heth and the CPD simply means the re-assertion of the Caldari State as essentially a corporate police state that it always was prior to the existence of Heth and the CPD. Whose fundamental elements are now outlined in said Caldari Demographics article. Certainly, if such doesn't appeal well I suppose there's always TonyG's vision of Ishukone or the Gallente Federation for those Caldari characters and players that want to play closer to the comforts of modern liberal-democracy, no?
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The irony here being that player and CCP rejection of Heth and the CPD simply means the re-assertion of the Caldari State as essentially a corporate police state that it always was prior to the existence of Heth and the CPD. Whose fundamental elements are now outlined in said Caldari Demographics article. Certainly, if such doesn't appeal well I suppose there's always TonyG's vision of Ishukone or the Gallente Federation for those Caldari characters and players that want to play closer to the comforts of modern liberal-democracy, no?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted:
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Hell, the only reason I find Ishukone so terrible these days is because it's the obvious product of those attempts to do so and which TonyG also seems to have fallen into, where the word, "Liberal" to describe the political faction means it's a haven of Cal-America with apple pie, to the point that it now looks like the red-headed bastard child Megacorp. preaching freedom, love and tolerance in an utterly cold and ruthless State instead of being the Megacorp. that just uses good PR in foreign markets to trick the foreigners to buy their goods because they can't get an acceptable market share in the State having to compete with much larger entities like SuVee and Kaalakiota.
And yet, instead of educating newer players who are joining Ishukone about what it really is on the spot, several prominent Caldari players continue to simply bash Ishukone for being weak willed milktoast hippies. Since the hippie Ishukone players are misinterpreting as you imply, and Ishukone detractors are confirming it by responding IC against the entire megacorp... this seems like a trend that even you are continuing to further.
This is the same issue as with Blood Raiders RP. A certain number of players have used Blood Raiders as an excuse for BDSM blood-religion fetish roleplay, giving the entire faction an unwanted stigma. Players like Silas Vitalia have done an excellent job in reversing this trend, by giving the faction a much needed and truly dangerous character and role model.
I dunno. I guess I'm ranting because when I first started playing Ishukone, I thought the hippie thing was what it actually was. Other Ishukone players were doing it, Patriots were bashing us for it, and nobody told me otherwise until much later. Only after I had read the Creliere storyline did I realize who Otro really was.
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I love pointing TonyG era Ishukonites to Creliere.
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And yet, instead of educating newer players who are joining Ishukone about what it really is on the spot, several prominent Caldari players continue to simply bash Ishukone for being weak willed milktoast hippies. Since the hippie Ishukone players are misinterpreting as you imply, and Ishukone detractors are confirming it by responding IC against the entire megacorp... this seems like a trend that even you are continuing to further.
This is the same issue as with Blood Raiders RP. A certain number of players have used Blood Raiders as an excuse for BDSM blood-religion fetish roleplay, giving the entire faction an unwanted stigma. Players like Silas Vitalia have done an excellent job in reversing this trend, by giving the faction a much needed and truly dangerous character and role model.
I dunno. I guess I'm ranting because when I first started playing Ishukone, I thought the hippie thing was what it actually was. Other Ishukone players were doing it, Patriots were bashing us for it, and nobody told me otherwise until much later. Only after I had read the Creliere storyline did I realize who Otro really was.
Well for one, I hardly consider myself a prominent Caldari player so I don't worry for my opinions counting for much, and frankly in a community that expresses a desire for toleration and not telling others they are doing it wrong I have accepted the fact that hey, if players want to play characters representing Ishukone that to me as a player strike me as just being a typical American or European with a Caldari hat on or in-character as being a typical Gallentean with a Caldari hat on due to their expressed in-character thoughts and opinions then that's their prerogative.
Anyway, I think the damage was done to Ishukone the moment TonyG wrote Theodicy to the point that Ishukone no longer really comes off as the old, "Smiling face with the hidden knife" type of Megacorporation I always thought it was from what I gathered from the old news articles and chrons about it, but where it now seems everyone in Ishukone as represented by those who play coming from it look like they've all drunk so deeply from the bleeding heart liberal Otro Gariushi kool-aid to such a point they've broken the golden rule: Never, ever, believe your own propaganda.
Now it isn't me bashing Ishukone RP as much as making it clear as possible that I have deployed my ten-foot-pole of, "Do not want" with TonyG's portrayal of a Caldari Megacorporation whose past CEO was presented as essentially the Caldari version of Jesus Christ who died in Malkalen for all of the State's sins in not accepting the gift and light of modern Western/Gallentean liberalism and whose current adherents come off to me as wanting to project upon the State their Japanophile tendencies in making Caldari honourable Zaibatsu citizens.
However, this does not mean that there does not exist a mutually advantageous situation here. It means right now, Ishukone presents an opportunity for players to RP a Caldari character that can be relatively close to modern norms without having to pay much mind to some more negative or unsavory aspects of State society according to them. Safe in the knowledge that as the current White Knights of the Caldari State no negativity shall befall Ishukone and that they'll always make the headlines by CCP with a positive spin cast upon them to feel warm and fuzzy inside. Others then can take an alternative angle in their pursuit of Caldari RP which in comparison might be more ruthless, darker, and harsher and by continuously making obvious the glaring differences between Ishukone and other Caldari Megacorporations in interactions then others can enjoy vicariously those elements of State factionalism.
Win-win scenario to me, I think.
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And yet, instead of educating newer players who are joining Ishukone about what it really is on the spot, several prominent Caldari players continue to simply bash Ishukone for being weak willed milktoast hippies.
That's a sad thing, to be honest. Omerta Syndicate concentrated on Ishukone RP way back in the day, and we painted them in an entirely different light.
According to our RP, Omerta Syndicate started out as an Ishukone subsidiary, doing extremely creepy black medical stuff while providing parent Ishukone with plausible deniability that they were behind it. Later, when some of these practices were discovered and brought to the public eye, Ishukone violently severed ties with us, resulting in the destruction of the majority of O-SYN corporate assets and the near loss of the corporation. After spending a time in hiding, the corporation reformed as a purely outlaw organization, and embarked on a public vendetta against Ishukone.
At one point, CCP threw us a juicy bone and brought us into an Ishukone live event which climaxed in our destroying a number of Ishukone Watch battleships. :D
In any case, that is what I think of when I think of Ishukone. Definitely not the granola-crunching hippies of the State.