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General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 13 Dec 2011, 17:05
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Or as close to it as you are likely to see.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)
Granted done on a purely economic basis rather than for religious reasons.
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Or as close to it as you are likely to see.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)
Granted done on a purely economic basis rather than for religious reasons.
I added the bold to your statement. I don't even need to check the link to tell you this; your reffering to modern-day 'angel cartel' tendencies, not Amarrian. The whole 'we do this due to God's will' part of the Amarrian Empire is a very, VERY important one, after all. Strip that down, and you get an aspect of another faction all-together.
Now ofc, to what extent your average imperial holder follows his pre-sett stated goal and how many of them are, say, 'legit' is another discussion for another place entierly.
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I added the bold to your statement. I don't even need to check the link to tell you this; your reffering to modern-day 'angel cartel' tendencies, not Amarrian. The whole 'we do this due to God's will' part of the Amarrian Empire is a very, VERY important one, after all. Strip that down, and you get an aspect of another faction all-together.
Now ofc, to what extent your average imperial holder follows his pre-sett stated goal and how many of them are, say, 'legit' is another discussion for another place entierly.
Good point, well made.
Definitely slavery however you cut it though.
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Reminds me much more of a fake Nation utopia where everything looks perfect on the surface, Its people brainwashed into thinking its perfect while the servants slave away. Some pretty terrible stuff going on over there, rather scary.
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I finally sat down and read the article. It's indeed one of the ugliest, nastiest and frightening places in the world. Not so much for the suffering that does go on there, but because it's so very visible and yet it's overlooked because of how much better that makes it for those who do not suffer.
It's not unique. It's not new or even all that different from the US, Britain, France, Norway or wherever else. It's just concentrated in Dubai. In Dubai you get the entire spectrum in one place, while in the other mentioned countries it's an international spectrum. The products we buy, the services we use... at some point in the long chain from raw resources to our enjoyment of it, there's some form of slavery, suffering and even loss of life. Dubai just makes it that much more visible and concentrated.
And frightening, since it just shows how little most of us would care or how easily we'd force ourselves to overlook it if we were reaping the benefits.
The real bitch of it is... nothing's going to happen. Slavery is at it's highest point in human history and no matter how many articles are written or consciousness of these troubling facts are spread... no one's going to do anything. There's not a single person on these forums that'll actually try to do something about this. Do you think anyone reading the Independant will do anything about it?
Fuck this world, seriously. Every time I get my hopes up after seeing some feel-good story somewhere, I read something like this. I for one fucking welcome the apocalypse. It's time to wipe out humanity and let the cockroaches grow brains in a few million years. They can't fuck it up much worse than we have.
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Miz.....
http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/
I will ******* buy you a subscription to this site if it will get you to cut the crap you've spouted on multiple threads now.
For the rest of you, an interesting site that showcases a lot of articles major news only use as a tidbit.
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I'm sorry, my rainbows and unicorn fart vomiting quota gets spent on My Little Pony gushing. Once the season is over, there may be some left for pretending these things don't happen.
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This thread reminds me of an Ursula K Leguin short story. It's only a few pages long.
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf)
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This thread reminds me of an Ursula K Leguin short story. It's only a few pages long.
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf)
Never heard of her but whoever she is, she's a wordsmith of note and a woman who's imagination is beyond that of us mere wordwranglers.
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Miz, if you haven't yet encountered Ursula K. Le Guin you have some discovery ahead of you. She's one of the most thoughtful and ethnographically-informed SFF writers of the late 20th century.
Anyone playing a space anarchist who hasn't read The Dispossessed, for instance, is missing a nuanced and very human view of a functioning anarchist society.
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Miz, if you haven't yet encountered Ursula K. Le Guin you have some discovery ahead of you. She's one of the most thoughtful and ethnographically-informed SFF writers of the late 20th century.
Anyone playing a space anarchist who hasn't read The Dispossessed, for instance, is missing a nuanced and very human view of a functioning anarchist society.
Well, I'm not playing a space anything at this point but thanks for the recommendation. I'll see if I can't find some e-books by her. If she's managed to portray a functioning anarchist society, it's good fiction indeed.
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This thread reminds me of an Ursula K Leguin short story. It's only a few pages long.
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnweb/rprnts.omelas.pdf)
Love this story. I try to read it about once a year.
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Miz, if you haven't yet encountered Ursula K. Le Guin you have some discovery ahead of you. She's one of the most thoughtful and ethnographically-informed SFF writers of the late 20th century.
Anyone playing a space anarchist who hasn't read The Dispossessed, for instance, is missing a nuanced and very human view of a functioning anarchist society.
Well, I'm not playing a space anything at this point but thanks for the recommendation. I'll see if I can't find some e-books by her. If she's managed to portray a functioning anarchist society, it's good fiction indeed.
It is a lovely story and amongst the three main literary sources I feel make up the basis of Jade's worldview/ideology. (others being the Star Fraction (though Stone Canal and Cassini Division are arguably even closer) and Gradisil which is close to perfect to describing the roots of the freespace movement as I see it.
@Mizhara - it *is* a functioning anarchist society but its not a society delivered from scarcity or regressive human nature in a number of important aspects.
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Actually, given that Dubai - as is commented on by people in that article - is incredibly moderate for a Muslim city-state (and in fact, they stringently censor fundamentalists the same way they censor criticism of the city) large parts of this article read like a description of the worst excesses of a Caldari megacorporation. Ugly as hell whatever way you slice it, though.
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Miz--
It comes to this: fundamentally, we're still animals. We tell ourselves that we can extend our moral sensibilities beyond our little tribal groups, and, to a limited extent, we're successful. We base societies-- civilizations!-- on the idea that we can and should live together without being complete shits to one another.
Inevitably, this is to some degree wishful thinking, and to some degree a lie. It's true almost, but not quite, to the extent that we manage to honestly persuade ourselves of its truth.
But in the end, we are still built for small villages and family groups, and can, will, and do edit anyone outside of that circle out of the zone where conscience applies, leaving hardly a ripple.
It is pointless to blame humanity for not meeting the ideals it sets itself. It remains a species of overly clever, murderous tribal apes trying to be something more civilized. Only in our very best moments do we seem to come close to success.
Maybe we'll be more than that some day. Maybe. I'm not holding my breath.
Aside from LeGuin, I also recommend Vonnegut for his nuanced thoughts on our tragicomic species. Deadeye Dick for the human "comedy" of errors, Slaughterhouse 5 for thoughts on human life, death, and morality, and the weight of each in the face of the horrors we inflict on ourselves and each other (Pooteeweet?), and Galapagos for a sadly hilarious take on our place in the world, the source of our miseries, and a possible, er, solution.
I think that, aside from finding at least one human being I decided was entirely worthwhile, cancer on the planet or no, it was Vonnegut that did the most to make me fall out of love with apocalypse.
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The monkeysphere isn't exactly big news. It's that it's welcomed with open arms instead of something to surpass that's the reason the apocalypse sounds rather inviting. The only alternative to blaming humanity is to actually accept things like the crap in Dubai and other places as inevitable or right. That is, no matter what, not acceptable. Ever.
Especially when you can point at actually civilized countries (that pretty much means some of Europe... maybe Canada) as examples where that kind of crap does not happen without serious repercussions. Frankly, if we up here in the frozen north can pull this shit off, so can the rest of the world. There's just no fucking excuse.
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Im not even approaching this thread with a 42 meters lenght pole considering the reactions ive seen so far.
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The only alternative to blaming humanity is to actually accept things like the crap in Dubai and other places as inevitable or right. That is, no matter what, not acceptable. Ever.
Especially when you can point at actually civilized countries (that pretty much means some of Europe... maybe Canada) as examples where that kind of crap does not happen without serious repercussions. Frankly, if we up here in the frozen north can pull this shit off, so can the rest of the world. There's just no fucking excuse.
There is another option.
Humanity's behavior in these matters is not quite inevitable, just damned close to it. One aspect of human nature is the tendency to dehumanize the "other," to define those outside one's circle of regard, whether originally or placed, as unworthy of being treated well. It's how we justify harming others, a way in which we prepare ourselves psychologically for vicious action. Casting blame, particularly of the utterly condemning variety, is just another method of doing this.
But we can be ruled by our own better angels. We can see what violence and conflict does, and choose to avoid walking the paths that lead to it, however justified they may seem.
It's always seemed to me that Europe has peace and civilization, now, to the degree that it has it, primarily because it has seen enough of strife. The same pattern in China (during the Warring States period) contributed greatly to the spread of Taoism, which places moderation, humility, and compassion as the duties of humanity.
That is the alternative. You need not accept, but neither need you cast blame. It's an easy flip to make: a badger is born a badger, a human a human. We're victims of our own damned biology, and the greatest monsters of history, when not simply damaged, have generally been those who believed most passionately in some cause their oversized brains cooked up for them.
Inevitable? Not entirely. But it is hard to teach a tribal ape to accept all humanity as part of its tribe.
Hard, but well worth the effort.
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Sometimes we as a species try to separate ourselves from nature, as though we are an anomaly or external from the animal kingdom. Civilization and organized society tends to curb these behaviors, and we often forget that evolution takes time. Violence, war, and other barbarity will continue to exist as long as it serves a useful function in accomplishing our goals.