Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Dex_Kivuli on 21 Apr 2010, 17:26
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The Provists have really gone and done it now:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3806&tid=6
Time for the Liberals to wardec the Patriots, I reckon.
All jokes aside, this can really fan the flames for interaction between Caldari players.
/me is becoming very paranoid, and has started jumping at shadows.
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So much for the "provist bloc/loyalty panel can't override corporate sovereignty" defense.
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Well, it depends on how things are going to develop. Note-worthily, the extraction happened on a Practical station, so if the scientist would have booked a direct flight from Hyasyoda station to Amarr space on a capsuleer craft, the Provists would have had to either board the craft (hello, CONCORD!) or let the guy go. Also, Hyasyoda is known of counterintelligence - did they know about this beforehand, or are they going to send in deniable assets to extract the scientist?
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I am wondering how this is going to play out. From reading the news/chrons leading up to FW, as well as the Empyrean Age novel, I found it funny that Heth used the gallente as a scapegoat for all of the ills befalling the State. Now I am wondering if the megacorps are seriously considering an internal revolt againsts the provists. Could be wrong, but would be interesting to see happen :D
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It's only recently occured to me that the current head of Ishukone actually knows that Heth is a Templis Drangonaur.
In the first book Otro Gariushi spots something on Heth's forearm in the original footage of the firefight at the Armour Forge. He sends it off to the Watch to be analysed and it comes back confirming that he has the Dragonaur's emblam tatooed on his arm.
Now I have to assume that he's had it removed subsequently or someone else would have noticed by now. However the current CEO of Ishukone used to be the head of the Watch, if memory serves correctly.
Interesting times indeed. Assuming that the people who are writing main plot are actually tracking this sort of detail.
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It's times like this I wish I had stayed a State loyalist.
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It's only recently occured to me that the current head of Ishukone actually knows that Heth is a Templis Drangonaur.
[TMA] Templis Drangonaur? ;)
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Templis Drangonaur, the organization that cracked the pressure dome of Nouvolle Rouvenor, precipitating the Federation election swing and subsequent war. TD's were put in strategic places of control of the Provist administration.
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And if memory serves me right they have raging hard-on for caldari racial purity, especially hostile towards the gallente obviously.
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And, more to the point, are horribly illegal in both the Fed and the State.
Oh, and if you didn't read the first novel. They where the people that where desecrating Caldari war monuments on Caldari prime before the invasion. The members doing it had been altered to look like Gallente so that they could be spotted and generate a bit more war fever and anti-Gallente feeling back in the State.
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Finding a way to use this, in-game, is of course, near impossible.
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Finding a way to use this, in-game, is of course, near impossible.
Not everything needs to be usable in-game, I think. :)
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Provist != Patriots
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Just for the sticky detail that the KK-Ytiri-Caldari Constructions Conglomerate is controlled by Tibus Heth himself.
Alena Strazinka is an example of one of those that will appeal to the Caldari's patriotic sense to drive out Tibus Heth, however.
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KK = Patriots, but Patriots =/= KK
Like Iowan = American, but American =/= Iowan
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Finding a way to use this, in-game, is of course, near impossible.
Well, the original Armour Forge footage should be obtainable surely? I'm surprised that Otro was the only person to notice given how intently various intelligence services must have been examining everything known about Heth.
It's one reason why I really, really don't rate Gonzalez as a writer or as a plot creator.
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Holding the title of CEO and a majority of shares in those corporations still doesn't mean he has absolute control over them. That's like saying the President or the Prime Minister controls the United States or the United kingdom. To put things in prospective, Kaalakiota owns many planets with populations greater than current day earth. Do you really think that an entity that large is going to be completely homogeneous?
Currently the U.S. President is a member of the Democratic party but that does not mean that the Republican party ceases to exist or have influence. Further even if Heth claims to have purged all "nepotistic dynasties" from the ranks of Kaalakiota I highly doubt he really took any control from local dynasties at all. They are too entrenched. Removing them would bring the whole corporate structure down. I imagine what he did was make examples out of "blatant offenders" and the ones still left in place are probably pretty pissed off with Heth.
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Finding a way to use this, in-game, is of course, near impossible.
Well, the original Armour Forge footage should be obtainable surely? I'm surprised that Otro was the only person to notice given how intently various intelligence services must have been examining everything known about Heth.
It's one reason why I really, really don't rate Gonzalez as a writer or as a plot creator.
There's a few other silly things, too. But damn it, if they really start going down the path of "big plot characters do everything of note", they better have a guys with the last names of Davion, Kurita, Liao, Marik and Steiner.
Also notable, anyone with Thermodynamics skill trained would have noted a problem on the way Otro Gariushi discovered the tattoo. Well, unless there were loads of cameras, and they had the tech to combine the information from all of them to show details that were near-invisible from a single camera. Though still would have been better if Mila would have noticed that. (In Ruthless - and partly in TEA, too - she was basically a hawt walking, talking natural computer.)
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Further even if Heth claims to have purged all "nepotistic dynasties" from the ranks of Kaalakiota I highly doubt he really took any control from local dynasties at all. They are too entrenched. Removing them would bring the whole corporate structure down.
Kaalakiota is a fictional construct, how you're so familiar with the internal structure as to be able to conclude what has and has not happened in regards to its power base and what the consequences of certain power consolidation maneuvers would be seems to be escaping me.
Corporations in the real world survive internal political coups all the time.
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how you're so familiar with the internal structure as to be able to conclude what has and has not happened in regards to its power base and what the consequences of certain power consolidation maneuvers would be seems to be escaping me.
KK, HG and Mordu have been at the center of my interest in Eve PF since 2004. There is a lot more PF in and out of the game that you know. I'm simply connecting the dots with logic and intuition. You've indicated that you have a problem that in the past because I could be wrong. So what. Then I'm wrong, but until then I'm going to stick with my perception of things for the sake of being able to RP.
My inferences do have a pretty good track record of making the right inferences over the last six years too ;)
Generally regarded as the most powerful faction, the Patriots are an alliance of Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi, and the mighty Kaalakiota, who between them and their subsidiaries possess capabilities rivaling those of the other two Caldari political factions combined. They are genuinely patriotic and extremely proud.
However, that rather jingoistic pride has been mortally injured by Heth's politically vicious rise. As a
result, they generally refuse to admit, even to each other, that many of the things Heth has done are
exactly what they themselves have wanted to do all along. While the wounds are still too fresh for them to feel anything but hatred for him...
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-07-08
It is unclear at this moment whether Tibus Heth, the Caldari State’s newly instated Executor, has any specific plans for the corporate forces. It is considered likely, however, that he will try to gain control of them...Doing so will be easier said than done, as these organizations retain a great deal of power in the name of their public appeal, to say nothing of their competent and well-equipped soldiery.... One thing is certain, at any rate: whoever commands these forces controls a good deal more than just a group of men with guns.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=13-10-08
"The other megacorps are conspiring against me. All seven of them. But not you. I've had my agents thoroughly vet every one of you people, and Kaalakiota, in which you still have your witchy little tendrils, stayed out of the whole thing. Why?"
Also do you really think the type of person who cares about the differences between the Patriots, Practicals and Liberals is going to be blue collar or white collar?
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All that additional content doesn't lend to a conclusion either way of how the corporation's power structure is organized, how resiliently it will weather purging and cronyism, or how far such efforts have gone to date.
Broad statements, ambiguous foreshadowing, and Heth vocalizing a very typical paranoid fantasy...that's not "logical".
There's nothing at all even remotely logical about claiming intimate understanding of a fictional construct and its intangible properties and qualities, or what the effects of given situations on it will be, they are at the whims of an author's imagination and determination of what will make for interesting dramatic tension, not immutable laws of nature or even historical precedent.
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All that additional content doesn't lend to a conclusion either way of how the corporation's power structure is organized, how resiliently it will weather purging and cronyism, or how far such efforts have gone to date.
Broad statements, ambiguous foreshadowing, and Heth vocalizing a very typical paranoid fantasy...that's not "logical".
There's nothing at all even remotely logical about claiming intimate understanding of a fictional construct and its intangible properties and qualities, or what the effects of given situations on it will be, they are at the whims of an author's imagination and determination of what will make for interesting dramatic tension, not immutable laws of nature or even historical precedent.
Hrrm. Well.
I'm not claiming intimate understanding of a fictional construct and it's intangible properties and qualities. I'm claiming intimate knowledge of a of the details provided about that fictional construct to date and sharing the inferences I have made from those details with a disclaimer that I could be wrong. Is it this that you take issue with?
The only two sentences that I did not qualify directly were the two clarifying my doubts on Heth's ability to purge all persons not loyal to him from positions of power:
They are too entrenched. Removing them would bring the whole corporate structure down.
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Broad statements, ambiguous foreshadowing, and Heth vocalizing a very typical paranoid fantasy...that's not "logical".
Let us examine some facts that we do have.
- Kaalakiota employs billions.
- The highest poportion of persons considering themselves to be mebers of the Patriot party are in Kaalakiota, Lai Dai and Wiyrkomi Megacorporations.
-There are Patriots, who are not provists and who hate Heth.
-Heth himself is of the opinion that he does not have full control of Kaalakiota.
- The pre-existing command structures of the eight security forces, including Home Guard, have a stronger control over their employee base than Heth. However, Heth does still have considerable influence of that employee base.
-CCP, not counting TonyG, like complicated, messy and well told stories.
Do you concur with these facts?
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double post.
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I'm not even really sure who your basic disagreement is with, I don't see where anyone claimed Heth is the unquestioned, unchallenged master of anything.
As to your list of "facts", the first three seem straightforward enough, though how you can leap from those simple ideas to an integrated view of the entire KK structure, how "purged" it currently is, how much resistance remains, and how long it can continue to resist before the "entire corporate structure comes down" is eluding me.
The one about the security forces, the very chron you linked went to great lengths to demonstrate that public perception is very much their currency and power, and Heth seems to have quite some aptitude at the public opinion thing. All 8 security services participated in the Caldari Prime operation, so even if unwilling, the megas can't seem to escape the public pressure that's been whipped up lest they be seen as aiding the enemy and made into the next scapegoats, which would be playing right into Heth's hands.
As to complicated, messy, and well told stories, first of all, again...how is this in any way lending to a "logical" understanding of a fictional construct? Second of all, every single one of those words is ambiguous and depends on the writer/reader.
Edit: Now, I'm totally on board with their being a great deal of conflict within KK as well as without, in the real world that might limit Heth's true ability for broad over-reach, but in a narrative its well within most people's suspension of disbelief.
I think we're just showing our inclinations on the whens and wheres of internal/external conflicts, overtness vs. subtlety, etc. :9