Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 23 Dec 2011, 17:33
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Baselining
So, basically appears that the naysayers who said that capsuleers are legally dead and never, ever ever have any contact with the outside world were completey wrong. Also, the assumed Concord immunity that players postered is also completely wrong, which is surprising.
A neat article though. Provides some good justifications for various realities. Nice to have some confirmation and clarification.
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Mmm. Been chatting about the Minmatar section, which fits well with how we've played it.
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*hugs the Baselining article*
The sections also fit nicely with how I've played baselining.
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Nice, this fits well. :D
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Confirmed I'm doing it wrong! :bear:
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Confirmed I'm doing it wrong! :bear:
I'd hope the article is vague enough to allow people to "do it wrong" without actually doing it wrong.
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After the work they put into Jita 4-4, which was one of my favorite chronicles, this seems really, really boring.
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After the work they put into Jita 4-4, which was one of my favorite chronicles, this seems really, really boring.
How so? Is your "boring" the same as my "reassuring"?
I'm very happy that I have the ability to baseline. Also happy that the clans seem to be working out their responses to capsuleers in a very Minmatar way. I play it that if Mata wants to be part of the flow of clan and tribal life she needs to pay her dues, put in the time, and maintain the connections. She needs to show that she doesn't consider herself "above" her clan-kin, while at the same time having access to resources which could make quite a difference to how things go for her clan. I like the duality and the balances there, and also the chances to grow in renown "in her own right". it's an area of the newly released information that definitely works for me.
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A good read, and sounds essentially just how I would imagine.
What I did find interesting is that we have good PF cue now that those with negative standing would have an exceedingly difficult time baselining in enemy faction locations.
IE an Amarrian capsuleer with -9 Republic standing is never, ever going to be able to dock at a 1.0 Minmatar station and go mingle with the crowds without major repercussions, like being tossed in the brig or being detained. Maybe they get out of it with enough money changing hands but I think we have pretty good arguments that faction enemies aren't out and about baselining in high-security enemy territory very easily.
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After the work they put into Jita 4-4, which was one of my favorite chronicles, this seems really, really boring.
How so? Is your "boring" the same as my "reassuring"?
I'm very happy that I have the ability to baseline. Also happy that the clans seem to be working out their responses to capsuleers in a very Minmatar way. I play it that if Mata wants to be part of the flow of clan and tribal life she needs to pay her dues, put in the time, and maintain the connections. She needs to show that she doesn't consider herself "above" her clan-kin, while at the same time having access to resources which could make quite a difference to how things go for her clan. I like the duality and the balances there, and also the chances to grow in renown "in her own right". it's an area of the newly released information that definitely works for me.
Call it a personal thing, I just hate the idea of capsuleers being "people." Like, I can understand that they were all normal humans at some point, and that they all have humanity within them, but the whole point of Jita 4-4 was to highlight the separation between a normal citizen and someone who can destroy thousands of lives, unrestricted by law, with their minds.
We've also had it stated that capsuleers live lives that are combinations of celebrity and vilification. It undoubtedly takes a toll on a person to be A). modified enough to use a pod, B). Use it in the aforementioned manner, and then C). Live that sort of life. Unless a capsuleer is the most well-adjusted person in New Eden and shrugs that kind of stuff off, I guess.
I don't know, it just feels cheapening if I can roll through a mission pocket, kill hundreds of crew, blow up every structure in sight, and then go home and go shopping with the misses in the station market.
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I'll just point out that a lot of people hate that characterization of capsuleers, as the deranged inhuman monsters who have lost all sanity because they get hooked up into a pod.
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Love this page, and have no problems with it whatsoever.
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After the work they put into Jita 4-4, which was one of my favorite chronicles, this seems really, really boring.
How so? Is your "boring" the same as my "reassuring"?
I'm very happy that I have the ability to baseline. Also happy that the clans seem to be working out their responses to capsuleers in a very Minmatar way. I play it that if Mata wants to be part of the flow of clan and tribal life she needs to pay her dues, put in the time, and maintain the connections. She needs to show that she doesn't consider herself "above" her clan-kin, while at the same time having access to resources which could make quite a difference to how things go for her clan. I like the duality and the balances there, and also the chances to grow in renown "in her own right". it's an area of the newly released information that definitely works for me.
Call it a personal thing, I just hate the idea of capsuleers being "people." Like, I can understand that they were all normal humans at some point, and that they all have humanity within them, but the whole point of Jita 4-4 was to highlight the separation between a normal citizen and someone who can destroy thousands of lives, unrestricted by law, with their minds.
We've also had it stated that capsuleers live lives that are combinations of celebrity and vilification. It undoubtedly takes a toll on a person to be A). modified enough to use a pod, B). Use it in the aforementioned manner, and then C). Live that sort of life. Unless a capsuleer is the most well-adjusted person in New Eden and shrugs that kind of stuff off, I guess.
I don't know, it just feels cheapening if I can roll through a mission pocket, kill hundreds of crew, blow up every structure in sight, and then go home and go shopping with the misses in the station market.
In today's world professional military pilots have the power to kill hundreds of random people (and this often happens), and for the most part they lose little-sleep over it. Being in a bomber and destroying little pixels on the targeting screen or on a building 25km away has far, far less psychological impact than the infantry that have to deal, up close and personal, with the results of their actions.
For capsuleers I imagine they would be even further removed; destroying tiny ships 50km away and having a few less blips on their targeting screen.
"I don't know, it just feels cheapening if I can roll through a mission pocket, kill hundreds of crew, blow up every structure in sight, and then go home and go shopping with the misses in the station market."
Not to belittle the life and death issues, but this is actually precisely what modern-day remote drone pilots are doing. Drive to work, fly their remote-missions, and be home in time for dinner, whilst people are killed quite far away.
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The way I see it is, if I, a demi-god, wish to consort with mere mortals....who is going to try to stop me?
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I think what makes it boring is that it's an informational piece, not a story, so I don't necessarily think it needs to be glamorous to get its point across. If I had one criticism to make, I suppose it would be possibly elaborating further on how they are treated by various Pirate factions. I can, of course, make my own conclusions, but a paragraph or so might be useful nevertheless.
As for the perceptions of capsuleers, I think the general theme common to any background could be described as out of place. Having extraordinary wealth to buy planets, political power to influence interstellar politics, combat prowess to dispatch thousands of people with relative ease... contributes to their inability to really blend with baseliners and be ordinary. That's not to say they can't mesh with them in other areas, but I think there's definitely an opportunity for character growth by exploring those differences and how these influences transform ordinary people. I think the article, specifically in discussing the jurisdiction of baselining in each empire, emphasizes that point.
Does that make every pilot a bloodthirsty, meglomaniacal killer?
I don't think so. Perhaps eccentric. We need only look at the 'capsuleers' of our own age, the wealthy elite, to see what kind of influence power and wealth has on people. From dictators, to media moguls, or even actors and other celebrities; once you're immersed in that kind of life there's a transformation that takes place that impacts us in a colorful way, and I personally find that very fascinating to explore.
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And now Imma try to messily address the three points above me in this post. <rubs hands.>
I don't think that just because the capsuleer is detached from the horrors they inflict that it lessens the impact. If anything, I think it would worsen the effects - tying it back into modern warfare, as technology became more advanced, soldiers had less and less need to actually see their enemies. EVE seems to me to be the next evolution, where warfare is ridiculously massive, takes place with ubiquitous frequency, but is entirely impersonal.
Grae, again, Jita 4-4 was a great explanation of exactly who would try to stop an egger from baselining. The paged linked in the OP lists it as a source, but it completely goes against the information therein, which makes this all the worse for me.
I'm willing to concede that it might just be my own perception that capsuleers be set completely apart from normal people, Iunno, this just irks me something awful.
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This could turn very strange when you start talking about capsuleers baselining (or going planetside, for that matter) in areas outside the reach of the Empires (sov null or W-space).
What sort of laws apply to a wormhole dweller paying a visit to a temperate planet in his corporation's home system? Or to a bored 0.0 capital pilot baselining at a conquerable station deep in his alliance's territory between alliance ops?
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What sort of laws apply to a wormhole dweller paying a visit to a temperate planet in his corporation's home system? Or to a bored 0.0 capital pilot baselining at a conquerable station deep in his alliance's territory between alliance ops?
Laws?
Edited to add, from the article on Baselining:Outside of these controlled areas, whether in stations or on planets, CONCORD has no real authority, and a capsuleer will find themselves subject to whatever laws and regulations the locals have established. This may result in a pilot being harassed or persecuted, particularly in areas which do not rely on capsuleers, such as remote deadspace colonies and generally disconnected pockets of civilization. However, many authorities, especially at the higher levels of interstellar society, realize that there is little wisdom in antagonizing capsuleers, who often act as key actors in trade and employment.
PS: Loving the iPad. Hating forum-quoting with it.
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This could turn very strange when you start talking about capsuleers baselining (or going planetside, for that matter) in areas outside the reach of the Empires (sov null or W-space).
What sort of laws apply to a wormhole dweller paying a visit to a temperate planet in his corporation's home system? Or to a bored 0.0 capital pilot baselining at a conquerable station deep in his alliance's territory between alliance ops?
Well, there are no laws in w-space, and there's no one to baseline with, unless you count your own POS employees, in which case that would be easier than b-lining with people you don't pay.
Nullsec regions are governed by the pirates that own them, or by the nullsec alliances. So again, it would be the employees under those alliances that the alliance members would interact with. As for NPC nullsec, well, its pretty lawless despite the pirates owning everything, so less restriction than Empire space.
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I don't think that just because the capsuleer is detached from the horrors they inflict that it lessens the impact. If anything, I think it would worsen the effects - tying it back into modern warfare, as technology became more advanced, soldiers had less and less need to actually see their enemies. EVE seems to me to be the next evolution, where warfare is ridiculously massive, takes place with ubiquitous frequency, but is entirely impersonal.
And where some pilots mod their interfaces into games where they're squashing ants in the playground.
I'm willing to concede that it might just be my own perception that capsuleers be set completely apart from normal people, Iunno, this just irks me something awful.
Fair enough. I note, though, that according to the article you're perfectly justified in playing a capsuleer who stays in the CONCORD-regulated parts of publicly-listed stations and doesn't mix with baselines.
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The way I see it is, if I, a demi-god, wish to consort with mere mortals....who is going to try to stop me?
Just please, don't screw any geese.
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The way I see it is, if I, a demi-god, wish to consort with mere mortals....who is going to try to stop me?
Just please, don't screw any geese.
Although having a clone made in the form of a swan would be traditional.
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I think one of the biggest things about that article is that how it says there is no CONCORD immunity, when for quite a while, we as players assumed there was. But it makes sense. If the Caldari Navy take Seriphyn prisoner, then how do the Caldari know that he won't call another capsuleer, two, or maybe ten to bust him out? Is it worth risking that many lives for someone who can just die and soft-clone anyway? So it's interesting to note how the status is an immunity unto itself.
As for cheapening the capsuleer's status...I didn't think so. It seems to say that this baselining thing is in the minority.
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Amazing how it takes CCP this long to establish the stark naked obvious -_-
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This could turn very strange when you start talking about capsuleers baselining (or going planetside, for that matter) in areas outside the reach of the Empires (sov null or W-space).
What sort of laws apply to a wormhole dweller paying a visit to a temperate planet in his corporation's home system? Or to a bored 0.0 capital pilot baselining at a conquerable station deep in his alliance's territory between alliance ops?
Well, there are no laws in w-space, and there's no one to baseline with, unless you count your own POS employees, in which case that would be easier than b-lining with people you don't pay.
Nullsec regions are governed by the pirates that own them, or by the nullsec alliances. So again, it would be the employees under those alliances that the alliance members would interact with. As for NPC nullsec, well, its pretty lawless despite the pirates owning everything, so less restriction than Empire space.
You forgot about planetary colonists, although what you're saying makes sense. I'm just asking "how do capsuleers handle this?" *pokes CVA*
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I'll just point out that a lot of people hate that characterization of capsuleers, as the deranged inhuman monsters who have lost all sanity because they get hooked up into a pod.
Yeah, in my opinion that view of capsuleers is cliched and boring. You lose a lot of potential in your stories. To each their own.
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I'll just point out that a lot of people hate that characterization of capsuleers, as the deranged inhuman monsters who have lost all sanity because they get hooked up into a pod.
Yeah, in my opinion that view of capsuleers is cliched and boring. You lose a lot of potential in your stories. To each their own.
That's not the point I was going for. You don't have to play an insane demon, but it's equally silly for capsuleers to pretend to be normal folks.
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I'll just point out that a lot of people hate that characterization of capsuleers, as the deranged inhuman monsters who have lost all sanity because they get hooked up into a pod.
Yeah, in my opinion that view of capsuleers is cliched and boring. You lose a lot of potential in your stories. To each their own.
That's not the point I was going for. You don't have to play an insane demon, but it's equally silly for capsuleers to pretend to be normal folks.
Why? As was commented above about remote drone operators, the distance and the impassionateness of the combat breed a sense of seperation from the conflict. IMO, a capsuleer doesn't turn into power hungry monster because they can kill thousands upon thousands, they just don't think about it.
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Statement of the fudgin obvious:
Anyone who walks around looking like a capsuleer, let alone sounding like one around non-capsuleers deserves what's coming to them.
The kind of technology available to us, would it really be a hassle to hide the capsule jacks or just not shout off your mouth that you're the murderer of tens of thousands?
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Statement of the fudgin obvious:
Anyone who walks around looking like a capsuleer, let alone sounding like one around non-capsuleers deserves what's coming to them.
The kind of technology available to us, would it really be a hassle to hide the capsule jacks or just not shout off your mouth that you're the murderer of tens of thousands?
Depends on the non-capsuleers in question, I reckon.
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I'll just point out that a lot of people hate that characterization of capsuleers, as the deranged inhuman monsters who have lost all sanity because they get hooked up into a pod.
Yeah, in my opinion that view of capsuleers is cliched and boring. You lose a lot of potential in your stories. To each their own.
That's not the point I was going for. You don't have to play an insane demon, but it's equally silly for capsuleers to pretend to be normal folks.
Why? As was commented above about remote drone operators, the distance and the impassionateness of the combat breed a sense of seperation from the conflict. IMO, a capsuleer doesn't turn into power hungry monster because they can kill thousands upon thousands, they just don't think about it.
And I venture when confronted with the notion that they do, most will either try to justify it in some manner. "We kill because it's war" or "To protect the innocent" or "Because they are unbelievers", etc.
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If Seriphyn is killling nothing but Serpentis in endless level 4 missions, I don't see why he would be hated by anyone but the Serpentis.
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Serpentis crew aren't made in a cloning factory. The people killed have family, and might even live on stations or planets of the Federation.
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If Seriphyn is killling nothing but Serpentis in endless level 4 missions, I don't see why he would be hated by anyone but the Serpentis.
Their clients that you're inconveniencing?
Also if you think about it, by killing Serps, you're 'making life easier' for the local law enforcement authorities, allowing them to devote time to things like bashing Caldari.
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True, but the majority of the population will not be angered at Seriphyn for doing that. A minority would really REALLY hate him, but not most people (who would be thankful).
I feel the article was directed at us personally as RPers, permitting us to play as normal-ish spacers while still stating how capsuleers have their reputation that was pushed before.
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I'll just point out that a lot of people hate that characterization of capsuleers, as the deranged inhuman monsters who have lost all sanity because they get hooked up into a pod.
Yeah, in my opinion that view of capsuleers is cliched and boring. You lose a lot of potential in your stories. To each their own.
That's not the point I was going for. You don't have to play an insane demon, but it's equally silly for capsuleers to pretend to be normal folks.
Why? As was commented above about remote drone operators, the distance and the impassionateness of the combat breed a sense of seperation from the conflict. IMO, a capsuleer doesn't turn into power hungry monster because they can kill thousands upon thousands, they just don't think about it.
The drone operator didn't go through extensive, possibly life-threatening training and medical enhancement to control his drone.
The drone operator doesn't use a direct hardwire neural link to control his drone. He doesn't have the "phantom ship" experience that capsuleers do. He doesn't feel shield hardeners or crew running around in his guts.
The drone operator controls a small, atmospheric aircraft, not the largest and most advanced pieces of technology ever devised by mankind (read; Titan pilots).
The drone operator hasn't experienced death multiple times.
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I'll just point out that a lot of people hate that characterization of capsuleers, as the deranged inhuman monsters who have lost all sanity because they get hooked up into a pod.
Yeah, in my opinion that view of capsuleers is cliched and boring. You lose a lot of potential in your stories. To each their own.
That's not the point I was going for. You don't have to play an insane demon, but it's equally silly for capsuleers to pretend to be normal folks.
Why? As was commented above about remote drone operators, the distance and the impassionateness of the combat breed a sense of seperation from the conflict. IMO, a capsuleer doesn't turn into power hungry monster because they can kill thousands upon thousands, they just don't think about it.
The drone operator didn't go through extensive, possibly life-threatening training and medical enhancement to control his drone.
The drone operator doesn't use a direct hardwire neural link to control his drone. He doesn't have the "phantom ship" experience that capsuleers do. He doesn't feel shield hardeners or crew running around in his guts.
The drone operator controls a small, atmospheric aircraft, not the largest and most advanced pieces of technology ever devised by mankind (read; Titan pilots).
The drone operator hasn't experienced death multiple times.
Hmm.
I think we should be careful with generalizations, as we will always have characters that treat their power and abilities in different ways.
There are infantry soldiers who have gunned-down plenty of people in cold blood and slept like babies, and people who have fired missiles from 1000 miles away and had nervous breakdowns.
Actually I think the drone operators are operating some of the most advanced technology available to mankind. 30 years ago it was absolutely impossible for someone sitting in Arizona to have real-time remote control of an airplane flying 10,000 miles away on the other side of the planet.
That was straight-up science fiction until very, very recently, and the parallels are quite good for capsuleers in some regards.
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My character baselines a lot. I'm glad there's finally an article that provides some guidelines to the practice.
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Also, the assumed Concord immunity that players postered is also completely wrong, which is surprising.
I've never really considered capsuleers as "immune to CONCORD". Hell, Ethan has been arrested and transported to Yulai once.
I tend to have him see them as a very real threat in character, likewise but less so with the sovereign navies and corporate police forces, and keep most of my characters that are associated with him out of highsec all together, apart from those who have high sec status and no record of nefarious stuffs.
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indeed, CONCORD's entire mandate is to -regulate- the capsuleers, to control them, and make sure they're not going to do anything stupid.
So long as you play within the rules, then CONCORD lets you do your business without interference. I figured breaching the EULA was like CONCORD canceling your cloning contracts and nuking your assets from orbit. :P
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Also, the assumed Concord immunity that players postered is also completely wrong, which is surprising.
I've never really considered capsuleers as "immune to CONCORD". Hell, Ethan has been arrested and transported to Yulai once.
I tend to have him see them as a very real threat in character, likewise but less so with the sovereign navies and corporate police forces, and keep most of my characters that are associated with him out of highsec all together, apart from those who have high sec status and no record of nefarious stuffs.
Makes me wonder how one would serve process upon a wormhole dweller :) via the GalNet mail system? ((i.e. ingame mail))
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If Seriphyn is killling nothing but Serpentis in endless level 4 missions, I don't see why he would be hated by anyone but the Serpentis.
Because even Serpentis have families, friends, associates.
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If Seriphyn is killling nothing but Serpentis in endless level 4 missions, I don't see why he would be hated by anyone but the Serpentis.
Because even Serpentis have families, friends, associates.
Indeed. I seem to recall a story along those lines in EVE fiction once. A cocky capsuleer gets back from blowing up a Serpentis battleship and picks up a groupie. Who turns out to be the sister of the pirate captain he's just killed. As I recall she charms her way into his bed & then poisons him.
Of course now that would be a huge waste of time with backups & all that.
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If Seriphyn is killling nothing but Serpentis in endless level 4 missions, I don't see why he would be hated by anyone but the Serpentis.
Because even Serpentis have families, friends, associates.
Yes they do. So do all the people everywhere that the Serpentis operatives hurt every day doing their 'job'. There are countless millions of people in the cluster that get fucked over by Serpentis, Angels or whatever on a daily basis, and all those people would love it if the Serpents would just go away or die or leave them alone. If Seriphyn, or BB, or whoever, wipe out a whole Serpentis battlefleet the widowed family members and/or orphaned kids back in Fountain will be very sad. But all those families all over the Fed and beyond who hear of this will more likely than not be happy for the news.
My character would be a fool to baseline in Fountain anywhere or on any Serpentis or Angel owned stations, unless he brought a large force of guards armed for nothing less than war, but baselining in the Fed and the most that would happen is likely some Serp. assassin, or angry 'associate' or some-such. Most who know of him or even care would likely want to buy him drinks because he killed all those people who were responsible for X injustice or whatever.
At the end of the day, the widows of Fountain are the same as the widows of Solitude - they blame different factions for their loss however, and report to different leaders, whose motives are very different. Ultimately, it's all the ones in a leadership position who are to blame for the cycle of hatred. Or whoever they hire to do their dirty-work...
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My character's gonna baseline where-ever the fuck it wants, pants or no pants.
If you try to stop me, I'll just fucking kill you and give your family nanite crabs.
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Liking the no pants idea.
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My character's gonna baseline where-ever the fuck it wants, pants or no pants.
If you try to stop me, I'll just fucking kill you and give your family nanite crabs.
Well that's just the thing - nothing stops any of us from baselining anywhere we please, but some of us are less welcome some places than others and should be ready for the inevitable negative effects.
Ofc, if my toon 'baselines' in Fountain, it won't be much 'strolling about shopping' or whatever as it will be ' gunning down any moron in his way with machine-like efficiency and a stern look of disapproval on his face'. Baselining for any moderately non-violent or confrontational purpose should preferably be done in places where the entire population don't want you dead. I very much doubt any high-rank member of PIE will be welcome in the shopping-malls of Pator anytime soon... :lol: