Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 14 Dec 2011, 00:05
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Spinning off from the space-badass thread:
That thread has me really wishing there were more variety of options for in-game badassness, so to speak. I can't think of a proper gameplay mechanic at the moment, but our RP world would be much richer if the elite traders, business people, and best manufacturers could wield the same 'influence' in game as the better pvpers.
As it stands now in-game wealth can be leveraged to hire mercs, etc, but that's still just an indirect route towards pvp, with limited results.
IE you could be the best pvper out there but if I don't want to undock you are never going to inconvenience me in the slightest, etc.
I wish there were interesting market mechanics for patents, smuggling, illicit trading, etc. Ways to shut opponents out of the market and severely inconvenience them in a variety of ways, so Mr or Ms. Evil Tycoon can corner the market on x product and force organizations to their bidding, etc. Trade wars that actually mattered. Product scarcity that could actually be exploited. Finite resources.
Wouldn't it be much, much more interesting RP wise if groups could wield influence and curry favor or ruin other groups by more complicated and interesting ways aside from pvp and corp theft?
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Hostile corporate takeovers.
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I've often wished that you could factor standings into market orders.
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It's been the wish of just about every RPer since the game went live.
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I can't think of a proper gameplay mechanic at the moment, but our RP world would be much richer if the elite traders, business people, and best manufacturers could wield the same 'influence' in game as the better pvpers.
Part of doing this is the execs, traders, and manufacturers making their presence felt.
Noir's CEO said something at FanFest (captured on Youtube) that hit home with me. He wanted his corporation to be able to focus on PvP. They didn't have to worry about moon mining, trading, or ratting - they would make ISK via their contracts.
IE you could be the best pvper out there but if I don't want to undock you are never going to inconvenience me in the slightest, etc.
The best PvPer might not be able to go after the trader/manufacturer. But another trader can make the traders life hell... maybe not in the hubs, but elsewhere.
Part of the problem is that distances are relatively small. Moving goods, trading goods does not generally add significant value. The fact that there is plenty of Tec moons all over the Caldari quarter of the map does not make it cheaper to buy there. The price of Tec in Delekin (the largest source) is apparently the same as Jita.
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Actually, the problem with trading is more inherent to the extremely rigid way in which the market works, which introduces one extremely large difference from real world markets - lack of quality variance. A Megathron made by a newb with Production Efficiency I and Industry I will have much higher production cost and much longer build time than one I make, but both production runs will produce a functionally identical item. If he then chooses to sell this Megathron at a lower price than mine (almost undoubtedly making a loss, but hey, he's a newb), there's no logical reason for people not to buy his Megathron instead of mine, and rightly so - he's selling it for less money and they're getting precisely the same product. Every Megathron is created not only equal but identical. Any random Megathron on the market is functionally and literally indistinguishable from any other random Megathron on the market. There's no difference in colour scheme, component performance, material sourcing, manufacturing standards, ethical standards, testing standards.
There's not even a way to work out who you're buying from before you buy, which is something I think a lot of roleplayers would have at least minor concerns about - say I was doing guerilla warfare in Amarrian space. Even if I desperately needed a resupply, I certainly wouldn't want to buy any products off slavers or Amarrian loyalists, and likewise, they probably wouldn't be seen dead with a product if they knew Mixed Metaphor had made it.
All of this represents a massive missed opportunity for the market in general. Call me unrealistic if you'd like, but what I'd really like to see is a system whereby a manufacturer can alter the manufacturing process of his ships so as to make them more unique - lowering production standards to produce units at low cost and higher speed, but of poorer quality, or raising them to produce more expensive, higher-quality units. Manufacturers would, for a relatively low price, also be able to brand their ships with their own colour schemes and logos, clearly distinguishing brands and corporations. The market should let you see who you're purchasing from before you buy (or alternatively, for fulfilling open buy orders, who you're selling to).
I think this'd stimulate the manufacturing sector, and get amusing brand-loyalty arguments going.
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Andreus just described my dream for the EVE economy!
When I browse my market screen looking for ships I don't want to see hundreds of generic and identical copies. I want to see:
"The Ixiris Pattern Megathron" versus "The Vindictus Standard Megathron" where stats would be influenced by workmanship skills and/or materials and production processes used to manufacture them. Even better if they would have different color schemes options, and that inferior versions physically look rustier and have lowered stats (but on the other hands more expendable and easier to afford).
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I am separating your post to address what I think are separate concepts and worthy of separate answers.
1 - Individual/Corporate Products
2 - Product Saler Identification
There's not even a way to work out who you're buying from before you buy, which is something I think a lot of roleplayers would have at least minor concerns about - say I was doing guerilla warfare in Amarrian space. Even if I desperately needed a resupply, I certainly wouldn't want to buy any products off slavers or Amarrian loyalists, and likewise, they probably wouldn't be seen dead with a product if they knew Mixed Metaphor had made it.
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The market should let you see who you're purchasing from before you buy (or alternatively, for fulfilling open buy orders, who you're selling to).
I think this one is the easiest to implement since the data is already there. When someone post an order, it is tied to their name/wallet or to their corporation/wallet. Displaying the corporation and associated standings would be useful to a buyer. In addition, it would be nice for a seller to set a "fee rate" on selling to people based on standings.
I think this could add a lot to the market in terms of interaction and encourage trade-alliances to form as well as military alliances. Also, I do not see any big obstacles, no huge extra server load (an added calculation when you select your buyer alongside the 2 existing taxes), and it adds to the game.
Good idea! Maybe we should flesh it out and put it forward on the Eve Forums somewhere.
Actually, the problem with trading is more inherent to the extremely rigid way in which the market works, which introduces one extremely large difference from real world markets - lack of quality variance. A Megathron made by a newb with Production Efficiency I and Industry I will have much higher production cost and much longer build time than one I make, but both production runs will produce a functionally identical item. If he then chooses to sell this Megathron at a lower price than mine (almost undoubtedly making a loss, but hey, he's a newb), there's no logical reason for people not to buy his Megathron instead of mine, and rightly so - he's selling it for less money and they're getting precisely the same product. Every Megathron is created not only equal but identical. Any random Megathron on the market is functionally and literally indistinguishable from any other random Megathron on the market. There's no difference in colour scheme, component performance, material sourcing, manufacturing standards, ethical standards, testing standards.
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All of this represents a massive missed opportunity for the market in general. Call me unrealistic if you'd like, but what I'd really like to see is a system whereby a manufacturer can alter the manufacturing process of his ships so as to make them more unique - lowering production standards to produce units at low cost and higher speed, but of poorer quality, or raising them to produce more expensive, higher-quality units. Manufacturers would, for a relatively low price, also be able to brand their ships with their own colour schemes and logos, clearly distinguishing brands and corporations.
I think this is a little harder to implement and already exist a little, but with less definition/gradation.
I am going to take a "simple" example - the Merlin.
The Merlin has 4 variants with 2 different sets skills needed to build it (T1 & T2). A T1 manufacturer who wants to build a "better" Merlin, would build a Worm. Another way to build a "better" Merlin is to learn the skills needed to build the Hawk/Harpy. This is clearly not what is desired, since you would like to see more variety.
Perhaps Meta levels is the direction to go? (Ships don't have meta-levels, so that example breaks down)
Based on your skills and requiring more material as well?
Now, this is not as special as color schemes or logos on items (ships), but it does provide a manufacturer with some variety, building on the existing database. It seems like a way to "update" manufacturing a bit in a future expansion (which hopefully will focus on giving us more functionality on the industry/market side as a whole).
For ships, I am not as sure what could be done, short of providing a few implant/rig-like bonuses based on the manufacturers inputs and having them be fairly limited.
Thoughts?
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For the quality problem I'm not sure I see a good way to approach it given the way EVE is structured and balanced. Feels like it would require a fundamental change in the way industry is done (both resource gathering and manufacture). The best comparison I have of a game that I know that did player markets well with individuality, quality variance, and "corporate shops" was SWG (RIP).
I'll try to keep it fairly short, but there were a couple fundamental elements that made it work. Resource qualities were randomized, which meant that people had to explore to find the "optimal" type for a given craft (and the best attributes varied between trades). On top of that crafters had the ability to experiment on any crafted product to improve some attributes, doubling the benefit of high quality materials. Player crafted goods could be named too, which gave the opportunity for advertisement and name recognition. God, now I miss SWG again. :cry:
The first and last points are things I find that would be hard or near impossible to implement in EVE given current constraints. Maybe some form of experimentation (boosts/drawbacks) or something of that sort is feasible, but I'm left to wonder how that could be managed without making ship balancing an even more difficult process.
I do want to see something like #1 though. I also have a (naturally) particular interest in doing things with black markets and other stuff of that sort. But right now I'm not exactly sure how to go about that because I haven't sat down to think it through.
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If something like this was to have happen it would have had to have been from the get go. It would radically change the way people could interact in empire if their standings affected where they could shop and dock.
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I wish there were interesting market mechanics for patents, smuggling, illicit trading, etc. Ways to shut opponents out of the market and severely inconvenience them in a variety of ways, so Mr or Ms. Evil Tycoon can corner the market on x product and force organizations to their bidding, etc.
I'm surprised nobody caught this and pointed out that we already have this in a fashion, with T2 BPOs. :S
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I wish there were interesting market mechanics for patents, smuggling, illicit trading, etc. Ways to shut opponents out of the market and severely inconvenience them in a variety of ways, so Mr or Ms. Evil Tycoon can corner the market on x product and force organizations to their bidding, etc.
I'm surprised nobody caught this and pointed out that we already have this in a fashion, with T2 BPOs. :S
That and the range of wonderful ways you can (apparently) manipulate the markets in EVE. It's a cut-throat part of EVE gameplay, and it has its stars just as combat does.
Weird observation: I know that gameplay combat isn't good practice for real life, but I have to remind myself consciously that some things that are expected parts of in-game market play could warrant a conviction IRL. Interesting to observe that in myself.
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I think I meant perhaps more serious monopolies; as in it's never, ever been difficult to purchase any T2 products. There are no weapons or items in game that are impossible to come-by due to political reasons or because of manufacturing cabals. Everything is available to everyone everywhere at generally stable prices. Forever.
I would love some 'temporary' market abilities. Sabatoge, supply shortages, etc.
How awesome would it be for us RP nerds if say some Caldari industrial espionage agents managed to infiltrate a major Galente industrial corp and sabotage one of the production lines for Dominix componants, causing a massive shortage on the FW front lines and swinging the balance for a few weeks?
We would chew up those types of scenario with great eagerness!
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I think I meant perhaps more serious monopolies; as in it's never, ever been difficult to purchase any T2 products. There are no weapons or items in game that are impossible to come-by due to political reasons or because of manufacturing cabals. Everything is available to everyone everywhere at generally stable prices. Forever.
I would love some 'temporary' market abilities. Sabatoge, supply shortages, etc.
That's what Goonswarm have been trying to do for the past few weeks with their Gallente ice mining interdiction and then their Gallente/Caldari general mining interdiction. They managed to drive the price of oxygen isotopes way, way up, but it didn't quite have the apocalyptic knock-on effects on the general market that they predicted it would. You may be right - the market may just be too stable for such things to work. I'm convinced it would be interesting if it wasn't - I'm not, however, convinced it would be fun for the vast majority of players (remember that, regretably, the vast majority of players don't roleplay). That's who CCP has to think about when they consider something that will drastically affect market stability.
How awesome would it be for us RP nerds if say some Caldari industrial espionage agents managed to infiltrate a major Galente industrial corp and sabotage one of the production lines for Dominix componants, causing a massive shortage on the FW front lines and swinging the balance for a few weeks?
We would chew up those types of scenario with great eagerness!
An interesting concept, but it would only be fair if such things could then happen to the Caldari or the Amarr in return.
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How awesome would it be for us RP nerds if say some Caldari industrial espionage agents managed to infiltrate a major Galente industrial corp and sabotage one of the production lines for Dominix componants, causing a massive shortage on the FW front lines and swinging the balance for a few weeks?
We would chew up those types of scenario with great eagerness!
I think this is called Corp Theft. An infiltrator cancelling industry jobs and stealing everything that isn't bolted down.
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How awesome would it be for us RP nerds if say some Caldari industrial espionage agents managed to infiltrate a major Galente industrial corp and sabotage one of the production lines for Dominix componants, causing a massive shortage on the FW front lines and swinging the balance for a few weeks?
We would chew up those types of scenario with great eagerness!
I think this is called Corp Theft. An infiltrator cancelling industry jobs and stealing everything that isn't bolted down.
Sure, and a good example, but I was thinking more market-wide effects. I can rob any large corp blind but no one will have a problem buying Abaddons in Amarr anytime soon. etc.
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Once upon a time, storefronts where being designed....
Store fronts, in theory, could have solved for many of the important issues i wish we could do today in the market. Realistically there is no way to balance and implement ship "variations" created by players....there is really no way to do it, even CCP admited it on fanfest (can be heard on one of the videos recorded in youtube).
However the possibility to create a "shop" for your corporation and promote your brand is something that the market currently lacks and needs badly.
1) Illegal goods could be sold through this service in low-sec and null-sec only, RP explanation = store fronts are station-based services out of the SCC reach.
2) Store fronts could provide discounts for loyalty (standings), volume (buy 100 instead of 10), and all sort of attributes (faction, bloodline, location, etc) in order to promote people to create true supply chains and subcontracting services.
Store fronts were the next big thing for the market/industry people out there, but was scrapped....
They (CCP) really should revisit the idea.
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Re: Storefronts
LDIS was primed and ready to utilize storefronts to provide pre-fitted Caldari Frigates & Cruisers to the STPRO in Nourvukakian back when we were able to play around with it on SiSi. We had different models of each of the ships with different fits depending on the role for which it was designed.
When storefronts fell through, we attempted to implement the concept via contracts. It did alright, but became cumbersome.
How awesome would it be for us RP nerds if say some Caldari industrial espionage agents managed to infiltrate a major Galente industrial corp and sabotage one of the production lines for Dominix componants, causing a massive shortage on the FW front lines and swinging the balance for a few weeks?
We would chew up those types of scenario with great eagerness!
I think this is called Corp Theft. An infiltrator cancelling industry jobs and stealing everything that isn't bolted down.
Sure, and a good example, but I was thinking more market-wide effects. I can rob any large corp blind but no one will have a problem buying Abaddons in Amarr anytime soon. etc.
This is why I think our ability to transverse the whole of New Eden in relatively short time (a single sitting for example) and without many obstacles is a part of the problem.
Abaddons sold in Amarr are built in a variety of places with materials from across the whole of New Eden.
Where is the Zydrine & Megacyte coming from? Mission Loot refinement? Null-sec miners? What Factories are being used and what do their wait times look like? Do I have to source minerals from multiple systems to improve my profit or is it more efficient for me to just buy all the minerals when I sell the ships?
The ability to consolidate the bulk of market activity to a few major market hubs is linked to the ease of movement we enjoy and the simplicity it those hubs bring.
If we however lost the ease of movement, more market hubs would develop. This would make true trading companies important as they move bulk goods across space between hubs. They would be able to turn a profit based on the scarcity of resources around one hub that are readily available in another.
It would also mean that certain resources could be truly bottle-necked.
Don't like the your competitor/enemy having T2 modules? Wardec the trading companies that bring Technetium, Platinum Technite, Nanotransitors, or Fullerides to your local market hub or setup high buy-orders to immediately buy-up those resources to deny it to your competitor/enemy. You may never actually shot at the trading companies, but your goal was to keep them away from your enemy's/competitor's market.
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The problem is, it's very difficult to take away that ease of movement once players have been given it.
Back in the day™ we had a lot more separation between empires (going from one to the other was more like 30 jumps than 10), and null sec was also a lot more separated (no smugglers gates, and obviously no cap ships), and there weren't any freighters or level 4 missions (which both serve to even the field on minerals and certain other commodities). If any of that was removed, or even changed substantially, now it would probably be a pretty big deal.
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The problem is, it's very difficult to take away that ease of movement once players have been given it.
Back in the day™ we had a lot more separation between empires (going from one to the other was more like 30 jumps than 10), and null sec was also a lot more separated (no smugglers gates, and obviously no cap ships), and there weren't any freighters or level 4 missions (which both serve to even the field on minerals and certain other commodities). If any of that was removed, or even changed substantially, now it would probably be a pretty big deal.
Aye. Always a balance between 'ease of gameplay' and 'more interesting for the hardcore.'
But yea it's a recurring issue that makes the market completely irrelevant.
Too easy to travel, too easy to move materials. Impossible to stop flow of goods (alts, etc).
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There are two things here:
a) the ease to move large quantities in a single ship or trip. IE: freighters.
b) the ease of traveling long distances. IE: jump bridges and jump-capable ships.
I'm not against freighters, jump-freighters, carriers, supercaps and titans. Because that requires people to fly the ships, people to escort it from a start point to an end-point, and also give opportunity to do "disrupt" such operations.
I'm only against jump-bridges because they bypass the natural traveling paths making them a nuisance.
However, to be fair, it is not bad for the eve economy that large quantities of goods are available in the market, but i do find it bad for the economy that all of them are placed in the same location (jita). There should be some increased cost to pile more and more goods in the same station at some point (i see it as selling earth's entire market only in new york).
Store fronts in particular provided a work around all that.
Suddenly the important matter was to find a provider that had the things you needed, conveniently located where you needed them. And all of them through the same interafce......neat isn't it?
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However, to be fair, it is not bad for the eve economy that large quantities of goods are available in the market, but i do find it bad for the economy that all of them are placed in the same location (jita). There should be some increased cost to pile more and more goods in the same station at some point (i see it as selling earth's entire market only in new york).
Store fronts in particular provided a work around all that.
Suddenly the important matter was to find a provider that had the things you needed, conveniently located where you needed them. And all of them through the same interafce......neat isn't it?
we have market skills that push the cost of taxes and brokers down so that we can sell our goods more cheaply.
What if there were a sliding scale to these - the more material moved through a given station, the higher the fees would become as the poor bastards responsible for moving the goods unionized and demanded benefits?
This would either reduce profits or increase prices on those goods in order to make the sale worthwhile, and give you a reason to look at selling stuff in the ass end of nowhere if the orders were hardly going to be taxed at all. Those poor shits are just happy to get some business.
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Wouldn't it be much, much more interesting RP wise if groups could wield influence and curry favor or ruin other groups by more complicated and interesting ways aside from pvp and corp theft?
I think this entire discussion undercuts a rather significant point, that in EVE's sandbox -- progression isn't dictated by necessity.
As characters, capsuleers, they can live a comfortable and satisfying existence running missions or even ratting in low security space. What incentive is there to build an empire or make the most money? Why do they have to destroy another corporation? Why build empires in lawless space? Why do they have to curry favor with agents or corporations? As a player, this answer is simple; I get some kind of enjoyment from the various aspects of the game, but as a character I find it difficult to give my character motivation to do vain, superficial, and contentious behavior when it isn't dictated by necessity.
So beyond vanity, racism, patriotism, or some personal urge for revenge, can someone explain to me the purpose of being the person who makes the most money or mines the most Crokite?
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as a character I find it difficult to give my character motivation to do vain, superficial, and contentious behavior when it isn't dictated by necessity.
So beyond vanity, racism, patriotism, or some personal urge for revenge, can someone explain to me the purpose of being the person who makes the most money or mines the most Crokite?
Pursuit of challenges? Betterment of one's self? Perhaps pursuing something beyond individual goals and pursuing some shared/common goal, like flying a bigger/better ship for everyone (even the lowest of T2 ships requires access to the resources of lawless space)?
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You forgot boredom. More stupid stuff has been done in the name of boredom than anything else. Well, probably. Being some all mighty being with riches beyond the dreams of most mortals, and nearly endless lives to live, boredom probably figures into a lot of decisions of capsuleers.
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However, to be fair, it is not bad for the eve economy that large quantities of goods are available in the market, but i do find it bad for the economy that all of them are placed in the same location (jita). There should be some increased cost to pile more and more goods in the same station at some point (i see it as selling earth's entire market only in new york).
Store fronts in particular provided a work around all that.
Suddenly the important matter was to find a provider that had the things you needed, conveniently located where you needed them. And all of them through the same interafce......neat isn't it?
we have market skills that push the cost of taxes and brokers down so that we can sell our goods more cheaply.
What if there were a sliding scale to these - the more material moved through a given station, the higher the fees would become as the poor bastards responsible for moving the goods unionized and demanded benefits?
This would either reduce profits or increase prices on those goods in order to make the sale worthwhile, and give you a reason to look at selling stuff in the ass end of nowhere if the orders were hardly going to be taxed at all. Those poor shits are just happy to get some business.
Fantastic ideas. I think taxes could be an immediate solution to a lot of these problems. The more people in local, the higher the station tax on items sold. Easy and done. If the devs want people out of Jita and spread out more, they just tie the station tax rate to the #s in local or the amount of goods listed at the station. Immediate new markets open up. If I can get my battleship for 60% of Jita prices in Khanid Prime people will absolutely start moving about more.
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Wouldn't it be much, much more interesting RP wise if groups could wield influence and curry favor or ruin other groups by more complicated and interesting ways aside from pvp and corp theft?
I think this entire discussion undercuts a rather significant point, that in EVE's sandbox -- progression isn't dictated by necessity.
As characters, capsuleers, they can live a comfortable and satisfying existence running missions or even ratting in low security space. What incentive is there to build an empire or make the most money? Why do they have to destroy another corporation? Why build empires in lawless space? Why do they have to curry favor with agents or corporations? As a player, this answer is simple; I get some kind of enjoyment from the various aspects of the game, but as a character I find it difficult to give my character motivation to do vain, superficial, and contentious behavior when it isn't dictated by necessity.
So beyond vanity, racism, patriotism, or some personal urge for revenge, can someone explain to me the purpose of being the person who makes the most money or mines the most Crokite?
Well in the real world the ones with the most money have the most influence over others, so there are real incentives to protect and enlarge ones bank account. In EVE I can be the richest person and I still don't have any direct influence over other immortals. We get a bunch of bored billionaires playing the game of thrones but with no consequences.
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Well, direct influence over other players would probably get on the slope of fun for me, but not for them.
Direct influence over NPCs on the other hand, would be lots of fun. What if you could "buy" an incursion from an NPC pirate group? It would be like a Sansha incursion, except that you funded it and the longer it stays active, the more isk you get back. Or "buy" a fleet escort from one of the empires to fight for you? Then you jump into Ama with a Republic battleship group at your back. Or finish the PI game. When that first came up, it sounded like it was going to be sim city. So maybe on high sec planets you can "make donations" to the leaders on the planet, and in return you get PI materials at an increased rate, or maybe they lower the taxes or something.