Considering I was the one who coined the phrase to begin with to describe my alt Selkie and a character called Sara Izlion when we were lolling about in a common OOC channel Ghost Festival public was it, I'll chip in my 0.02isk.
I started using it as a three things, playful joke, troll phrase and last but not least a derogatory term for the endless lipstick fantasy lesbian couples that sprung along at the time in EVE RP community. Essentially horny guys who were acting out their favourite porn troupes from which ever fantasy at the time. It sort of picked on from there among the community.
Aside from that I've got nothing against lesbian or gay RP ( not enough manlove though :< ) if it's something with serious intent an a development of character that has more meaning than khanid slave girl #789 going all sorority girl on Gallente Hussy # 69.
Since many years have passed, the term has taken a life of it's own and many people use it and in many different ways. Viva la language.
Inb4 someone accuses me of homophobia, no that's not the case. Who you love or desire is not my concern as long as it's all consensual and makes you happy.
And a lot of the time, 'space bi' would probably be more accurate anyway. Need more men who aren't total assholes ;)Really? Really? Really.
And a lot of the time, 'space bi' would probably be more accurate anyway. Need more men who aren't total assholes ;)Really? Really? Really.
"Need more women who aren't total bitches."
Sadly srs. Since when men being "assholes" causes lesbians? This almost demands someone to IC roll up a nice guy and go "Yeah I like women more, a lot more, but hey there ain't nice enough girls around so I had to go gay." (I just don't think thats how sexual preferences work.)
And a lot of the time, 'space bi' would probably be more accurate anyway. Need more men who aren't total assholes ;)Really? Really? Really.
"Need more women who aren't total bitches."
Sadly srs. Since when men being "assholes" causes lesbians? This almost demands someone to IC roll up a nice guy and go "Yeah I like women more, a lot more, but hey there ain't nice enough girls around so I had to go gay." (I just don't think thats how sexual preferences work.)
Relax, it was just a joke. A long running OOC joke among players who choose to have a lesbian characters is that "single" and "nice" seem to be mutually exclusive among men in eve. All the good ones seem to be taken (curse those women who got there first :l ).
And a lot of the time, 'space bi' would probably be more accurate anyway. Need more men who aren't total assholes ;)Really? Really? Really.
"Need more women who aren't total bitches."
Sadly srs. Since when men being "assholes" causes lesbians? This almost demands someone to IC roll up a nice guy and go "Yeah I like women more, a lot more, but hey there ain't nice enough girls around so I had to go gay." (I just don't think thats how sexual preferences work.)
Relax, it was just a joke. A long running OOC joke among players who choose to have a lesbian characters is that "single" and "nice" seem to be mutually exclusive among men in eve. All the good ones seem to be taken (curse those women who got there first :l ).
Also the term is generally tossed about often when a 'new' female character shows up, is extremely sexual from the start, is a lesbian, and generally doesn't have much else going on beyond cruising for love in the chats, etc etc.
My reading of the OP is that it is not an assertion that people use the term because they wish to be offensive, but rather a suggestion that we all think about our use of the phrase and the unintended baggage it can bring with it.
I also suggest that discussions of homosexuality in Eve cultures belong in their own thread.
/me hides Aldy in her pocket, "Mine!"And a lot of the time, 'space bi' would probably be more accurate anyway. Need more men who aren't total assholes ;)Really? Really? Really.
"Need more women who aren't total bitches."
Sadly srs. Since when men being "assholes" causes lesbians? This almost demands someone to IC roll up a nice guy and go "Yeah I like women more, a lot more, but hey there ain't nice enough girls around so I had to go gay." (I just don't think thats how sexual preferences work.)
Relax, it was just a joke. A long running OOC joke among players who choose to have a lesbian characters is that "single" and "nice" seem to be mutually exclusive among men in eve. All the good ones seem to be taken (curse those women who got there first :l ).
/me hides Aldy in her pocket, "Mine!"And a lot of the time, 'space bi' would probably be more accurate anyway. Need more men who aren't total assholes ;)Really? Really? Really.
"Need more women who aren't total bitches."
Sadly srs. Since when men being "assholes" causes lesbians? This almost demands someone to IC roll up a nice guy and go "Yeah I like women more, a lot more, but hey there ain't nice enough girls around so I had to go gay." (I just don't think thats how sexual preferences work.)
Relax, it was just a joke. A long running OOC joke among players who choose to have a lesbian characters is that "single" and "nice" seem to be mutually exclusive among men in eve. All the good ones seem to be taken (curse those women who got there first :l ).
There is a reason one of my sayisms is, "MMORPG; Mostly Men Online Role Playing Girls."
On the topic at hand, like a lot of english, the phrase is entirely contextual. It depends on who's saying it, how they're saying it, and who they're saying it two. The word itself just sort of... Is. "Space lesbians", just as words, has no context or meaning beyond "females who are sexually attracted to females, in space".
Which is a long way of saying "be careful how you say things." Tone can make it a friendly nudge, or a snooty jab.
That was only slightly aimed at you Mitty :D All those nice young, spohisticated Amarrian and Caladri gentlemen who my poor Sebbie has no chance with :cry:
And I love the explanation Silas gave on straight males not wanting to ERP with males. Sounds pretty logical indeed.
Actually, now that I think of it, neither Catillah nor old-Seph actually ever got involved with another character in this way. I have in other MMOs (like Age of Conan), but not in EVE. Curious. :?
In the same vein, it'd be 'logical' to assume that those people that make a fuss about 'space lesbians' have a problem with assertive, male-ish females that would pose a thread to them scoring or somesuch.
If you ERP a 'spacelesbian' you know that the person on the other side is probably male. If you play a male char in a relationship with a female, you prolly have the same situation. So, why does being straight male pose a problem to ERP with a male character, but not with a male player, portraying a female character?
I can say so much: Nico thought that old-Seph was quite attractive. Then he vanished.
Quote from: Nicoletta MithraIn the same vein, it'd be 'logical' to assume that those people that make a fuss about 'space lesbians' have a problem with assertive, male-ish females that would pose a thread to them scoring or somesuch.
If you ERP a 'spacelesbian' you know that the person on the other side is probably male. If you play a male char in a relationship with a female, you prolly have the same situation. So, why does being straight male pose a problem to ERP with a male character, but not with a male player, portraying a female character?
I think it has to do with fantasy more than reality. You see a female portrait, you can pretend there's a female player on the other side. It probably is wrong, but you can act upon it and convince yourself as if it is true.
Or, simply, ignore the person behind the screen and just focus on the character, which is female.
... I just don't see why its a big deal.This is exactly what I'm thinking.
What makes me itch, is that these are perfectly normal people while the "space lesbian" is not.
But that also begs the question, why did your character have to be homosexual? Why not stick with heterosexuality which you know well?
Yup, Ministry of Internal Order didn't like him meddling into certain things, and the corpses he had accumulated in his closet. Some were... politically sensible.Haven't had the right friends in the right places it seems. Poor man.
But I'll tell him next time I get a Legio visit, I'm sure he'd like to know it in his monastery. ;)That is outright cruel. Does he receive female visitors? ;)
and Tiberious is a toaster.
I read it as your characters sexual orientation are based on (non-sexual) OOC needs Y/N?How does one see in game that a char not is 'lesbian' for the 'wrong OOC reasons'? - That is, apparently, somehow it is not okay to have sexual fantasies about being a lesbian? I also think that the expression "they regard being lesbian as a sexual fantasy" is somehow insinuating that people who have that fantasy a) have much of a say in it and could regard it as something else and b) they 'want' to degrade being lesbian to being 'merely' a sexual fantasy. I think both isn't warranted here.
My question was open: "why did your character have to be homosexual?" and it seems you have an answer for your character which seem fine. The "issues" can arise when the answer is indeed that they regard being lesbian as a sexual fantasy they are now going to fulfill.
I have no interest in your RL sexual orientation. I even made a note mark '*' to emphasize that the reader might not be well versed in heterosexuality, as an attempt to indirectly acknowledge that the reader might have other sexual preferences. My only care in peoples sexuality is whether it involves me as partner or not. :)
I think Myyona may be referring to stereotypical heterosexual male fantasies about lesbians (something Vincent also touched on in his post with a reference to Khanid Slave Girl #whatever getting kinky with Gallente Hussy #umpteen). Having lost count of the number of times a straight man has responded to his advances being shot down with 'Not interested, gay' by saying something along the lines of 'That's okay, your girlfriend can join in', I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that many holders of this fantasy view women as objects, not possessors, of sexual desire. I would suggest that Myyona may be describing players whose fantasy is watching lesbians, not being one, and if the aim of roleplay is to enter into another's experience imaginatively, creating a character as a pliable puppet for fap fodder is the opposite of engaging with the exercise of viewing the world through another's eyes.
However, the assumption contained in the casual use of 'space lesbian' to refer to non-heterosexual female characters (and I would suggest that a number of posts in this thread reinforce the idea that it's not a compliment) is that most if not all such characters are constructed for such reasons. I've seen Morlag referred to as a 'lolspacelesbian', for example, as well as Kat, regardless of both being complex characters with enduring and plausible relationships.
There are plenty of other examples of character construction in Eve that can be done very badly, and very stereo-typically, and sometimes as an excuse for the public display of a sexual fantasy (Look! I am violating my slave! And she likes it!) but we don't apply a dismissive term for those characters in a blanket fashion to every character who shares that trait.
It is also worth remembering that for many people, RPing different sexualities and/or genders in games is an important part of exploring the development of their own sexuality or gender identity. Denigrating the concept of choosing to RP a lesbian because its a different and mysterious lifestyle disregards the very real experience of many gay and trans young people for whom GLBTI life is different and mysterious and who may need the buffer of RP to allow them to grapple, in a safe and distanced way, with their own desires and preferences.
While I share the :roll: to towards shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire, I think we should all read the OP again and note that it simply asks that we" be careful instead of casually throwing the phrase around."
In my opinion, this is a pretty modest request.
I even made a note mark '*' to emphasize that the reader might not be well versed in heterosexuality, as an attempt to indirectly acknowledge that the reader might have other sexual preferences.
I think Myyona may be referring to stereotypical heterosexual male fantasies about lesbians (something Vincent also touched on in his post with a reference to Khanid Slave Girl #whatever getting kinky with Gallente Hussy #umpteen). Having lost count of the number of times a straight man has responded to his advances being shot down with 'Not interested, gay' by saying something along the lines of 'That's okay, your girlfriend can join in', I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that many holders of this fantasy view women as objects, not possessors, of sexual desire. I would suggest that Myyona may be describing players whose fantasy is watching lesbians, not being one, and if the aim of roleplay is to enter into another's experience imaginatively, creating a character as a pliable puppet for fap fodder is the opposite of engaging with the exercise of viewing the world through another's eyes.
However, the assumption contained in the casual use of 'space lesbian' to refer to non-heterosexual female characters (and I would suggest that a number of posts in this thread reinforce the idea that it's not a compliment) is that most if not all such characters are constructed for such reasons. I've seen Morlag referred to as a 'lolspacelesbian', for example, as well as Kat, regardless of both being complex characters with enduring and plausible relationships.
There are plenty of other examples of character construction in Eve that can be done very badly, and very stereo-typically, and sometimes as an excuse for the public display of a sexual fantasy (Look! I am violating my slave! And she likes it!) but we don't apply a dismissive term for those characters in a blanket fashion to every character who shares that trait.
It is also worth remembering that for many people, RPing different sexualities and/or genders in games is an important part of exploring the development of their own sexuality or gender identity. Denigrating the concept of choosing to RP a lesbian because its a different and mysterious lifestyle disregards the very real experience of many gay and trans young people for whom GLBTI life is different and mysterious and who may need the buffer of RP to allow them to grapple, in a safe and distanced way, with their own desires and preferences.
While I share the :roll: to towards shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire, I think we should all read the OP again and note that it simply asks that we" be careful instead of casually throwing the phrase around."
In my opinion, this is a pretty modest request.
... For some, like Kat (or so it sounds, do correct me if I'm wrong), it's wasn't a planned aspect. It just sort of evolved, ...
Haven't had the right friends in the right places it seems. Poor man.
That is outright cruel. Does he receive female visitors? ;)
Lots of stuff
The only time I'd consider it not legitimate is if being lesbian/gay/xenophiliac is the only aspect of the character. It's perfectly fine to have these aspects, and you can even make them main aspects if you want, but if the only thing you use to describe the character is that she's a lesbian... It's just not very interesting. What else is she, in addition to being attracted to other females?
This doesn't apply only to sexual preferences either. You can ask the same question about a person who calls themselves a soldier. "Ok, what kind of soldier? Why did they want to join the military/militia? How do they view their opponents? What is their fighting style? How long have they been fighting? What, if anything, do they do concerning the people they've killed? Have they lost any friends in the line of duty?" So on and so forth. Summing a character up into one word, be it soldier, scientist, patriot, conservative, lesbian, hedonist, or anything else, doesn't provide enough flavor. It's the, "I am 'X', and also 'Y' and 'Z' " that gives characters depth, makes them interesting. (Also beware of trying to wear too many hats. As the Buddha would say, not enough is bad, but so is too much)
Following that, after Simca's IC 'death', Erys (again a female) was not the first per se (since now I had two years of meeting people behind me)... but she was certainly the one who ended up spending the most consistent time roleplaying with me from an OOC standpoint. Online every day at the same time, offering impressive dialogue and character development, and helping me work through the storyline mess that became of Katrina. Simply put, with all the effort Erys put into working with me during those weeks, we allowed our characters to being interested to ensure continued development.
My character became involved in homosexual relationships because the players behind the characters offered me what I was looking for in the right amounts at the right time. MY character stinll has romantic interests in plenty of males. Kiruss Dasun, Pieter, Stitcher, John in a platonic way, Valdezi, and even Tiberius in a small way. All males, and all people she was/is interested in. Kiruss is taken, Pieter is taken, Stitcher is taken, John is her boss, Valdezi treats her like a sister, and Tiberious is a toaster. If the situations were different, they could have been her next partner.
There are a few other people who I could see her being compatible with had some stuff happened differently - Vince for example; if not for a series of events that gave them 50 million reasons to hate each other, they'd otherwise be pretty compatible. :lol:
In general, if I use the term, I'm using it to refer to the (as Cia puts it) "shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire", who, imo, are the source of any "spacelesbian problem" that may or may not exist. Those of us for whom the "lesbian" or "bisexual" or whatever aspect of our characters is entirely secondary to other things like "musician" or "pirate" or "faction loyalist" or "mother", should not be lumped in with that group. It is not a defining characteristic - it is just an added piece of the puzzle.
In fact, the only time Kala has ever not been actively involved in supporting the Republic was after the breakdown of her first relationship when she ran away to live with Morwen for a few months ;)
In fact, the only time Kala has ever not been actively involved in supporting the Republic was after the breakdown of her first relationship when she ran away to live with Morwen for a few months ;)And I will personally state for the record that absolutely nothing of note occurred during this time, because Kala mostly kept to herself the entire time. :P
I should point out some side notes on downplaying or otherwise hiding relationships.
I consider myself lucky I rolled Caldari. Katrina IC has many cultural reasons to not speak about her relationships. Keep it in the bedroom, be tactful, etc... Even more so because she is engaged in a homosexual one. There are very very few times when she will (of her own accord and actions) flaunt the fact that she is partnered to Erys or formerly Simca. It doesn't come up in conversation, and when it does, she tends to try and be discrete about it. Unless she's drunk.
But, some of you will notice in retrospect now, that with the exception of my private OOC channel, I don't talk about Katrina's relationships much. The reason is that I am always consciously trying to avoid the spacelesbian trope. I try not to talk about it, because of the stereotype. If I were playing a Gallente or Minmatar, those OOC reasons could be the only ones I have for not speaking about it IC.
This is why I'm lucky I rolled Caldari, because her culture allows me to avoid having to mention it IC.
Well, you can also be gallentean and be quite prudish.
Someone mentioned ERP earlier (Nico iirc).I think that Saede mentioned 'ERP' first in a response to a post that can be read to imply that 'space lesbians' are overly promiscuous and mere tools for cheap cyber-sex. Also, that this is a bad thing.
I think that might actually be worth a discussion on its own (we may have a few existing threads already, in fact), but the tl;dr on my perspective there is that I strongly prefer to avoid it, except in the very rare cases where it will provide useful character or plot development, and all involved parties agree with that fact. Otherwise, if it's clear that hanky-panky-kiss-and-spanky is going to happen and it's not going to include/involve anything that would affect anyone in ways that need to be dealt with or hashed out, just fade to black and call the scene a wrap. No need to waste time if you already know the outcome. (Pun retroactively intended.)While I think that one can have a discussion on it's own about it, I think that the discussion about 'space lesbians' is tied into it. There also seems to be the idea that people playing such 'space lesbians' to play out their fantasies are by necessity people that see only objects of desire in woman, not subjects having such desires. I think that is a prejudice that is certainly grounded in (probably bad) experiences, but a prejudice none the less and not even necessarily a well founded one. That's why I chimed in on it: I think it's not warrented to label chars as 'space lesbians' if one means that those are men who just want to objectify woman for their sexual gratification.
- One way to reverse this seemingly omnipresent trend is to get more male characters into the game, more types like Pieter, Stitcher, or Tibs (if he wasn't a toaster). These guys tend to be magnets for female characters because they're generally pretty polite, intelligent, and even-keeled, and if there were more of their types in the game, I suspect the "Space Lesbian" label would apply to far fewer female characters.
Something that as a member of the LGBT community that I find a bit =/ in regards to people who would often fall into the space lesbian trope, is that they seem to just play standard heteronormative women, who just happen to like other women. There's a lot more to being LGBT then that. So someone's playing a lesbian character. What I want to know if thats the case are why aren't there any butch lesbians? Why aren't there genderqueer and agendered characters?
She might have - to be fair I started from the posts I was already planning to respond to (Kat and Cia's) and worked my way backwards, and yoinked the first one I saw, which ended up being yours. :P+1
I don't disagree that they are tied in some manner, but the whole cyber/ERP debate isn't exclusive to this subject in particular, which is my reason for suggesting that perhaps if we're going to wander off to talk about that explicitly, a second thread might be in order. :)
Also to clarify the position made a couple paragraphs before that - I'm not saying that those people are doing it wrong.
What I am trying (and possibly failing) to suggest is that whether those players/characters are doing anything wrong or not, the people whose characters are not like them are being associated with their actions, and they do not care for it. If someone wants to use EVE RP as a conduit for exploring their own sexuality, they should go right ahead and do so - I would agree that in many cases it's a safer environment to experiment in. However, these characters can be difficult for many people to take seriously. And for people whose characters aren't defined primarily by their sexuality, it is highly irritating to be lumped in with those characters because people decide to go "oh, they're not straight, MUST BE A SPACE LESBIAN", and then never actually pay attention to the actual attributes that define the character, and only focus on that.
If someone wants to have a character like that, they should go right ahead. It would just be nice if people would stop associating the two kinds of characters with each other when they really aren't anything alike.
Well I am still quite mitigated on the "suitable males are rare". Maybe there are slightly less of them than females, and even probably, but to the point of being rare... ?
I decided to play a Caldari and a homosexual only because I thought it would be a good idea at the time (curse you vodka redbulls) to explore what it's like to be sexually repressed due to the apparent latent homophobia prevalent in the State.
Yes, sometimes even self-loathing and never matching the ideals of your peers can be an interesting concept to try and play out.
... For some, like Kat (or so it sounds, do correct me if I'm wrong), it's wasn't a planned aspect. It just sort of evolved, ...
You are correct.
I also wonder if the choice of IC partners is maybe easier for a male player to be attracted to women characters, which can lead to space lesbians, actually.
I am not speaking about ERP or pure sexual attraction here. Just more romantic things.
Maybe male players have a harder time to be attracted to... males, so it becomes easier for said players to go in the female direction, even when playing females ?
I personally just tend to find the relationship important and attractive myself, rather than the other character.
I also wonder if the choice of IC partners is maybe easier for a male player to be attracted to women characters, which can lead to space lesbians, actually.
I am not speaking about ERP or pure sexual attraction here. Just more romantic things.
Maybe male players have a harder time to be attracted to... males, so it becomes easier for said players to go in the female direction, even when playing females ?
I personally just tend to find the relationship important and attractive myself, rather than the other character.
Well, studies would imply that while lesbianism and bisexuality among females is more accepted in western societies and thus publicly more present, homosexuality as well as bisexuality and homo-erotic encounters at least are more prevalent phenomena among men than females. (See for example the famous Kinsey studies and their findings on bisexuality (http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-data.html#bisexuality) and homosexuality (http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-data.html#homosexuality).)
This goes together with males being in general more sexually active and society leaning to high sexual activity being more accepted among males and less so among females.
So, while apparently it's okay for males to be openly promiscuous with females, there seems to be social pressure not to be open about any homo-erotic desires. This might be a reason why people in a RP environment choose to take up the chance of the lesbian relationship that as allows them to to explore homo-eroticism and being open about it in a way that is more acceptable to their (non-internet) social environment and maybe circumvents barriers of shame that have been formed by said social pressure.
Also, in my observations, there is a prevalence among 'space lesbians' - whether it be the stereotypical ones that have no defining other characteristics or those that happened to end up 'accidentally' being one - for strong, assertive (either sexually or non-sexually or both) behavior. While in the case of the 'stereotypical space lesbian' the resulting overt sexual promiscuity is often attributed to males wanting to turn females into sexual objects, I think that given the broader picture one as to acknowledge that this is (merely?) the expected form of expressing 'strong' and 'assertive' behavior patterns with a "character" that focuses on sexuality. Therefore I rather see a longing for woman, that are - sexually as well as otherwise - self-determined and active, represented in the 'space lesbian' slice of our community. I think that's far from "objectifying women in pursuit of sexual desires".
I decided to play a Caldari and a homosexual only because I thought it would be a good idea at the time (curse you vodka redbulls) to explore what it's like to be sexually repressed due to the apparent latent homophobia prevalent in the State.
Yes, sometimes even self-loathing and never matching the ideals of your peers can be an interesting concept to try and play out.
I also wonder if the choice of IC partners is maybe easier for a male player to be attracted to women characters, which can lead to space lesbians, actually.In my case, Morwen's actually my first non-heterosexual character over a number of years of RPing in various games. Done a number of 'straight' characters both male and female, some of whom had relationships, but this was the first time I explicitly said from the beginning, "don't make any note of it, just let it come on its own through RP." I'm not really surprised by the result but I don't mind it either. Learning experience and all that.
I am not speaking about ERP or pure sexual attraction here. Just more romantic things.
Maybe male players have a harder time to be attracted to... males, so it becomes easier for said players to go in the female direction, even when playing females ?
I personally just tend to find the relationship important and attractive myself, rather than the other character.
I would love to see the first player trying to make an homosexual Amarr male priest. Ohlol the drama.
It's bound to be 'space-catholic child molester' drama, really, whether the person depicts the char as such or not. Unfortunately.I would love to see the first player trying to make an homosexual Amarr male priest. Ohlol the drama.
I'd like to see it done without being a caricature of the shit going on in the real world. Unfortunately that might be an unreasonable thing to hope for. :\
Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.
That said, there are lots of strong-and-assertive-outside-of-sexuality women of varying orientations running around ingame (I can think of a handful who frequent the Summit offhand, for example). They may just not be immediately visible depending on where/when you RP.
EDIT - Thought that goes back to my original post. A lot of the strong and assertive women may choose to look on "their side of the aisle" so to speak because many male characters don't come across as having personalities that are compatible with women who are strong and assertive and stand up for themselves. To me, I think one of the things we're lacking more than any other is male characters who, while strong and assertive in their own right, are not intimidated by and are able to respect women who are the same way.
Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.
Quote from: MerwernNico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.
I'd like to stop there for a moment and poke at something that has been bothering me. Why is a sexually assertive character considered "lol" and looked down on? I get that it can be done poorly, but I don't think its a good attitude to harbour that if sexuality is considered a character focus that "obviously that person is just trawling for ERP." Sexuality is a major part of people's lives and I see no reason why it could not be part of the focus of a character as long as, as with everything else, its done well and isn't the only aspect of the character. Saede at least is a sex positive, openly promiscuous person, she thinks sex is good and people should have more of it. That's obviously not the only aspect of the character, but it is an aspect, and I don't think its fair to get put into the category of 'lol'
Furthermore why would "space" be part of the term? Do we call people "earth lesbians?" What's wrong with just using lesbian? Homosexual? Not really caring? because it doesn't impact gameplay terribly.
Quote from: MerwernNico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.
I'd like to stop there for a moment and poke at something that has been bothering me. Why is a sexually assertive character considered "lol" and looked down on? I get that it can be done poorly, but I don't think its a good attitude to harbour that if sexuality is considered a character focus that "obviously that person is just trawling for ERP." Sexuality is a major part of people's lives and I see no reason why it could not be part of the focus of a character as long as, as with everything else, its done well and isn't the only aspect of the character. Saede at least is a sex positive, openly promiscuous person, she thinks sex is good and people should have more of it. That's obviously not the only aspect of the character, but it is an aspect, and I don't think its fair to get put into the category of 'lol'
This. I've previously played characters like this, and it's extremely annoying how much flak you can get for it. Even if you don't actually take it anywhere (keeping it in the background, so to speak), simply adding that attribute to the character gets you all manner of backtalk and rumor-milling.
Any vaguely-sexual female character is going to have a tough time of it, sadly. Whether lesbian, slave (EVE having widespread slavery in its lore makes it somewhat less prominent here, but in other MMO RP the word 'slave' is used in the same negative light as space lesbian), sexually-assertive, etc, there's so many people that misuse it to make it so that those who are trying to treat it seriously have to fight a constant uphill battle.
Synthia: "I have been Informed that an Unrighteous Dress may attract a Space Lesbian"
Summit user A: "what's a spacelesbian, Synthia?"
Synthia: "A space lesbian is a lesbian that is in Space"
Summit user B: "heh, alright, what's a lesbian, Synthia?"
Synthia: "a Lesbian is a Human Woman that likes Other human Women"
Summit user A: "there are non-human women?"
Synthia: "Yes ?"
It's bound to be 'space-catholic child molester' drama, really, whether the person depicts the char as such or not. Unfortunately.I would love to see the first player trying to make an homosexual Amarr male priest. Ohlol the drama.
I'd like to see it done without being a caricature of the shit going on in the real world. Unfortunately that might be an unreasonable thing to hope for. :\
Furthermore why would "space" be part of the term? Do we call people "earth lesbians?" What's wrong with just using lesbian? Homosexual? Not really caring? because it doesn't impact gameplay terribly.
Quote from: MerwernNico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.
I'd like to stop there for a moment and poke at something that has been bothering me. Why is a sexually assertive character considered "lol" and looked down on? I get that it can be done poorly, but I don't think its a good attitude to harbour that if sexuality is considered a character focus that "obviously that person is just trawling for ERP." Sexuality is a major part of people's lives and I see no reason why it could not be part of the focus of a character as long as, as with everything else, its done well and isn't the only aspect of the character. Saede at least is a sex positive, openly promiscuous person, she thinks sex is good and people should have more of it. That's obviously not the only aspect of the character, but it is an aspect, and I don't think its fair to get put into the category of 'lol'
This. I've previously played characters like this, and it's extremely annoying how much flak you can get for it. Even if you don't actually take it anywhere (keeping it in the background, so to speak), simply adding that attribute to the character gets you all manner of backtalk and rumor-milling.
One other thing to consider - our characters are fairly young, on the whole, probably 18-30 in the majority. Add in vast power and wealth afforded to them by capsuleer status (and fan clubs?), mix it with poor impulse control, and the fact that we're not throwing drunk debaucheries on a nightly basis astounds me. EVE: Frat House Edition.
One other thing to consider - our characters are fairly young, on the whole, probably 18-30 in the majority. Add in vast power and wealth afforded to them by capsuleer status (and fan clubs?), mix it with poor impulse control, and the fact that we're not throwing drunk debaucheries on a nightly basis astounds me. EVE: Frat House Edition.
If an Amarrian tends to fall to the 'space lesbian' bit they'll probably be a rebellious younger one who doesn't care much for tradition, if not an outright traitor/heretic. I do believe that homosexuality is severely frowned upon in the Empire, even though the only PF that has touched upon it was that one chronicle with the gay priest talking to the Gallente woman.
I do think the culture of the character plays a role in this phenomenon.
I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
Oddly, people seemed to enjoy themselves immensely making fun of me and Kala about it, and it all felt like it was in good spirits.
/me is doing her part!!!!I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
/me is doing her part!!!!I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
:D
/me is doing her part!!!!I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxU89x78ac
/me is doing her part!!!!I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxU89x78ac
I could totally see this song play on Caldari State tv :D :D :D
/me is doing her part!!!!I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxU89x78ac
I could totally see this song play on Caldari State tv :D :D :D
Now you know what kind of corny shit I have to deal with in my own country. -_-
/me is doing her part!!!!I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture. That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.
"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxU89x78ac
I could totally see this song play on Caldari State tv :D :D :D
Now you know what kind of corny shit I have to deal with in my own country. -_-
I feel your pain bro.
PS. Quote Pyramid FTW
I was originally going to post this anonymously, but decided against it. I hope everyone can stay respectful and not make personal attacks and try to stay away from 'urdoinitrong' comments...
"Space Lesbians"
We use the term a lot, most of us. Some of us preface our characters by defining whether we are one or not. Some of us jokingly or seriously prod at other characters using the term. Others make judgments about RP based on it, or imply judgments. The word has started to become synonymous with role-play that isn’t serious or as worthwhile as heterosexual or male/male relationships.
But what is a Space Lesbian? Is it simply any character changed in homosexual role-play between two females? Is it the aforementioned type of character but played by a male in RL? Is it suggesting that lesbians in EVE should only be played by actual females? Is it a character whose purpose is primarily sexual? Does it suggest promiscuity? Does it mean the player is sexually insecure? Is being a space lesbian ‘doinitrong’?
The problem with the term 'space lesbian' is that it's become so common and used in a derogatory way that some of us may not realize how offensive it can be. There are many female characters who are involved in serious and monogamous homosexual relationships in EVE played by people who put a lot of effort into their role-play. There are those who are gay or lesbian, or otherwise queer, in real life who could feel bothered by the comment. While it’s understandable that not everybody is accepting of homosexuality, those who are should be more careful when using the term.
In many societies, being homosexual can get you excluded from society, placed under judicial punishment, or worse. This isn’t reality. This isn’t a call for gay rights. This isn’t a cry for help. It is however a petition for those who share this role-play community to be careful instead of casually throwing the phrase around. There are players, friends of yours even, who play lesbians in EVE – and who might be offended. Let’s all try to be more accepting of other’s choices in role-play.
It makes you wonder if the EVE RP Community has become something of a safe haven for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. because the rest of the game community is so hostile to them. The EVE RP community may be cliquish and mercurial, but at least they are considerably more tolerant of differences.
....stuff ...
It makes you wonder if the EVE RP Community has become something of a safe haven for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. because the rest of the game community is so hostile to them. The EVE RP community may be cliquish and mercurial, but at least they are considerably more tolerant of differences.
Almost certainly the case.
95% of players are male.
50% of the avatars
Of those 47.5% of men playing female avatars most are hetro so find it easier to portray attraction to another female avatar.
Is not rocket science simply human nature and preference.
I deeply regret the way eve has slipped to the mainstream here. It used to be a game where we had weirdos and bizarre people, our kinks and queers and alternative subcultures, gays, straights, cross dressers and virtual prostitutes rubbing soldiers with fanatics, politicians, anarchists, loyalists, soldiers, mercenaries and pirates and it felt, it genuinely felt like some outworld cantina where literally anything could happen and you were always going to learn something strange and new in late night conversations while hunting war targets.
It makes you wonder if the EVE RP Community has become something of a safe haven for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. because the rest of the game community is so hostile to them. The EVE RP community may be cliquish and mercurial, but at least they are considerably more tolerant of differences.
Almost certainly the case.
If that's the case, then the argument up there crushes down already:Quote from: Jade Constantine95% of players are male.
50% of the avatars
Of those 47.5% of men playing female avatars most are hetro so find it easier to portray attraction to another female avatar.
Is not rocket science simply human nature and preference.
Outside the RP community people rarely portray any sexual relationships or such anyway. To the vast majority of players EVE online is, and has been for quite a long time, if not from start, simply an MMO about internet spaceships. It really doesn't matter that roughly one half of the men have female avatars and are hetero, as they, mostly, wouldn't think of RPing anyway.
What matters is the RP Community of EVE. Spacelesbian is a term that - apparently, if we follow the claims in this thread - originated in the 'more tolerant EVE RP community'. Also, the EVE RP community should not depict the same ratios in regard to sexuality as the non-RP playerbase of EVE: If it is the 'safe haven' for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc., then one would expect an exceptionally high percentage of those in the rather small RP community of EVE.
Usually, if something "simple" is described as being "simply human nature and preferences" it's wrong, as human nature and preferences tend to be quite complex. The 'simple maths' up there don't hold up, really, given the prevalence of gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. in the RP community. There must be something else to it.
If there has been a change in the EVE community that swings against 'gender play' and such, it must have happened inside the RP community, then, to explain the '(being called) space lesbian' phenomenon.
QuoteI deeply regret the way eve has slipped to the mainstream here. It used to be a game where we had weirdos and bizarre people, our kinks and queers and alternative subcultures, gays, straights, cross dressers and virtual prostitutes rubbing soldiers with fanatics, politicians, anarchists, loyalists, soldiers, mercenaries and pirates and it felt, it genuinely felt like some outworld cantina where literally anything could happen and you were always going to learn something strange and new in late night conversations while hunting war targets.
All us weirdos are still around though, and we're still somewhat noisy in the community. I've definitely felt the environment you describe in the quote above being present, and I've only been playing since January of 08. If anything I feel like things have actually been improving a lot lately and the roleplay community has been growing pretty impressively.
I wouldn't be so quick to write us all off as having been subsumed into the mainstream. We all have our little pockets of the game, and in my case, I'm even pretty noisy on the forums with my opinions. EVE has always struck me as a very adult game played by and large by very mature people. While there might be trolls and assholes and idiots, overall the game community is rather friendly and understanding. I've never been harassed about my gender or sexuality, I've never really been harassed at all honestly. My community experience by and large has been almost entirely positive. Maybe I'm just being sheltered, and I'm not seeing the wider community, but overall what I've seen has looked pretty good to me.
The 'Space Lesbian' term is stupid, I think we can all agree its pretty dumb and its shitty to call people that. I don't think its a sign that the community is fundamentally broken, I think its a sign that we've acquired a few dumb memes. And Oh have we ever.
QuoteI deeply regret the way eve has slipped to the mainstream here. It used to be a game where we had weirdos and bizarre people, our kinks and queers and alternative subcultures, gays, straights, cross dressers and virtual prostitutes rubbing soldiers with fanatics, politicians, anarchists, loyalists, soldiers, mercenaries and pirates and it felt, it genuinely felt like some outworld cantina where literally anything could happen and you were always going to learn something strange and new in late night conversations while hunting war targets.
All us weirdos are still around though, and we're still somewhat noisy in the community. I've definitely felt the environment you describe in the quote above being present, and I've only been playing since January of 08. If anything I feel like things have actually been improving a lot lately and the roleplay community has been growing pretty impressively.
I wouldn't be so quick to write us all off as having been subsumed into the mainstream. We all have our little pockets of the game, and in my case, I'm even pretty noisy on the forums with my opinions. EVE has always struck me as a very adult game played by and large by very mature people. While there might be trolls and assholes and idiots, overall the game community is rather friendly and understanding. I've never been harassed about my gender or sexuality, I've never really been harassed at all honestly. My community experience by and large has been almost entirely positive. Maybe I'm just being sheltered, and I'm not seeing the wider community, but overall what I've seen has looked pretty good to me.
The 'Space Lesbian' term is stupid, I think we can all agree its pretty dumb and its shitty to call people that. I don't think its a sign that the community is fundamentally broken, I think its a sign that we've acquired a few dumb memes. And Oh have we ever.
Fair enough, I hope you are right. If your experiences are as you say and such environments do still flourish I suspect I'll be back one day ;)
I would argue that the RP community (uses) adopted the "space lesbian" term under cultural influence from anti roleplay / mainstream gamer culture elsewhere in the community. The prefix "space" before lesbians is too similar to the prefix "Internet" before spaceships to be entirely coincidental. The fact that the RP community has anyone RPing anything to do with sex and sex through the mirror of virtual gender confusion makes it a target for the mockery and derision of the gamer mainstream and reactionary homophobia.
But the fact that a subculture is under threat from a larger mainstream does not prevent it from being a safe(r) haven. I live in Brighton in the UK, its one of the most liberal, laid back and accommodating places in Europe for gay and alternative lifestyles but guess what? People still get queer-bashed by reactionary elements and away day thugs looking for a thrill in their banal conformity.
For me its pretty simple, space lesbian is a term like Internet spaceships that is designed to mock a particular play style or preference and ensure a single worldview attains dominance in the mmo ecosystem. Men shouldn't sex up men wearing female avatars just as people shouldn't get annoyed when they get screwed over Internet spaceships ... That's the commandments from Eve's neo Puritanicals.
Still doesn't explain the prevalence for lesbian characters in a subculture filled with gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc.
I think this is related to white privilege (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege) in the sense that those that react to the term adversely have themselves experiences with their sexual preferences as something that has been judged by their real life culture or social group.
Therefore those that do not react to the term adversely (and use it) cannot really comprehend what the fuss is about.
In the end, all we can control is our own reaction to things which pretty much means that getting offended about something like this will change things as much as getting offended about anything else.
It does not really matter.
Therefore I applaud this kind of discourse on something that I perceive as a non-issue, perhaps I can understand what the fuss is about, perhaps not.
At least the try is out there.
The thing is, as a recipient of the benefits of white and cisgender privilege, when someone points out that a term or phrase is offensive to them, I stop using it. I might not 'comprehend what all the fuss is about' beforehand, but being informed that it's offensive is enough for me. It does puzzle me when people (and this is more in reference to the sort of culture Jade raised rather than in reference to this thread) refuse to acknowledge that their language is offensive, demeaning and exclusionary, and insist on continuing to use it.
We don't only control our own reaction to things: we also control our own speech and behavior.
'Getting offended' may not change anything: but informing others that we have been offended is a different matter. It puts out in the open the offensive nature of some language choices, which the possessors of privilege might not have considered.
Of course, that's no guarantee they'll stop using them: but it certainly removes any excuse of ignorance, and makes perfectly clear the attitudes of those who continue to choose to use terms they now know are offensive, hurtful, and exclusionary.
As no one should be a victim in life, let alone a game, I believe that tolerance is best expressed by the testing of boundaries (usually accidentally) and the acceptance of self-moderation in the face of negative reactions. Through this, both the offended party and the offensive party learn how they see the same term differently and how victimisation through presupposition of prejudice or by continuation of an aggravating behaviour until it becomes prejudice is unacceptable.
Stop making me want to write long posts.
<snip>
All the heterosexual ERP or relationships I've ever seen tends to be fairly vanilla, if somewhat enhanced with FutureToys™ or GallenteKink. Straight characters seem to have fairly non-sadistic relationships. Tenderness, communication, egalitarian dynamic, with a little bit of contrived melodrama because this is RP, after all.
But that also begs the question, why did your character have to be homosexual?
One question to be asked is "How does being a lesbian (or any sexual preference for that matter) add to the character?"
What I got from the rest of this thread is that you portray a very realistic character with a realistic relationship, so I've no doubt of this.<snip>
I play a woman married to a woman. I live exclusively in highsec, and have for the better part of a year now. She's married. She wants children. She likes long walks on the beach and snuggling in front of the fireplace. She does not abuse or rape everything with tits. She doesn't even come close to domestic violence. The worst she's ever done is slap her wife on the butt in bed.
I think maybe you're just not noticing the normal couples among the wild ones, but believe me... we're out there.
But that also begs the question, why did your character have to be homosexual?One question to be asked is "How does being a lesbian (or any sexual preference for that matter) add to the character?"
Being a lesbian is not like being a good aligned drow. It doesn't need special justification.
No one asks people who play straight characters to explain what being straight adds to the character. No one says that playing a man 'begs the question' of why their character had to be a man. There is no special term for 'Space Whiteys.'
Why are some characters lesbian? Because they are. That's all the rationale needed.
There is no special term for 'Space Whiteys.'
The worst she's ever done is slap her wife on the butt in bed.Mhmmmm....
If those of you who are engaged in roleplay that either tracks or superficially resembles this pattern
If those of you who are engaged in roleplay that either tracks or superficially resembles this pattern
What exactly is the 'pattern'? Lesbian ERP? Enjoying Lesbian ERP?
Oh, I think I see what you're saying now. It's still hogwash.
People will assume XYZ, so thus you are guilty of XYZ and it's okay for them to be offended and insult your RP.
You say that it's inevitable that people will assume we're objectifying women, and you also suggest that this is somehow okay to be offended based on those assumptions? If anybody assumes this is what it's about, that my role-play is simply to objectify women sexually, then their own offense is their own fault. Not mine. Not my RP partner's. Theirs. When someone assumes without knowing the facts, that's what they get. Self made offense.
I am not going to apologize for my roleplay because someone has a kneejerk reaction to men doing something they think should only be done by women.
For the record... those assumptions are a perfect example of something called sexism. Amazing how that works huh?
EDIT:
I will note that you're simply saying this is why people are throwing heat at us. That's not an excuse. It may explain it, but it doesn't excuse it.
"Being gay isn't about sex, it's about being in love"I've known lesbians who can have emotional intimacy and even romantic feelings toward men but don't because cock does nothing for them.
Someone is different from me!I find a perverse humor in this: In RL, Real Lesbians are discriminated against. In RP, Fake Lesbians are discriminated against.
Oh no! We must point it out and ask why!
A lot of people are different from me! They must have problems!!
Seriously. Whoever thinks that what people choose to do in their free time, with people who consent to do it with them, is in any way, shape, or form any of their goddamn business, really should probably be doing something besides playing a game full of people who will all be doing whatever they want to do in their free time.
Someone is different from me!I find a perverse humor in this: In RL, Real Lesbians are discriminated against. In RP, Fake Lesbians are discriminated against.
Oh no! We must point it out and ask why!
A lot of people are different from me! They must have problems!!
Seriously. Whoever thinks that what people choose to do in their free time, with people who consent to do it with them, is in any way, shape, or form any of their goddamn business, really should probably be doing something besides playing a game full of people who will all be doing whatever they want to do in their free time.
And then I remember that it's true for Queer/Bi people as well and I get all angry and shit...
Hm. Thinking about it a little more, I don't think most people who roll their eyes at "space lesbians" are doing so because they looked at the whole phenomenon through the "feminist lens" of literary criticism (that's what the above is mostly about-- reading underlying, often unintended messages found in a text). What I stated above is more of a scholarly critique. It's what you'd be getting if you ran it in front of a bunch of liberal arts professors (or former students with a good memory). Most people don't even notice stuff like that, even if they're absorbing the messages sent.
Probably, it's more like this:
1. Men in New Eden are real men, and so (often) are the women.
2. Guys playing women in lesbian relationships are usually doing so for the ERP.
3. People tend to roll their eyes at ERP in general. I'd have to think a bit further about exactly why; I don't think the answer's simple (though I'm sure somebody could cough up a few pithy lines that would get at least part of it).
4. Lesbian relationships are usually ERP + there are lots of lesbian relationships = conclusion that there's a lot of ERP going on and that the lesbian relationships are a product of that.
5. People tend to roll their eyes at "space lesbians" in particular as the most obvious ERP-ers.
There. That makes more basic sense.
How ever you feel about it, Jade, is how it is.
Any opinion counter to your idea of well being - well meaning in it's ignorance or disgusting in it's prejudice, is an attempt to subvert YOUR ideal of YOUR well being.
Norrin was onto something with his statements above, in the IC domain. In the OOC domain, your mind is the only freedom you can never be divested of by circumstance or design. Use it as the starting point to ensure the rest of your freedoms are well defended. This may require stepping on someone else's 'dearly held values', but if their values encroach into telling you how you can feel or think, and how two or more individuals who have parity in those elements of their private life may privately act upon them, their values weren't worth tolerating anyway.
Liberate the mind, tolerate others and be conservative in how you act against other's freedoms. It could almost be called the Grand Unified Theory of Being a Decent Person, in that it consolidated the good points of the sociopolitical spectrum from left to right, and is as unattainable as the Grand Unified Theory from which it was butchered ;).
We're all guilty of playing into standardized role tropes in our RP.
I'm an evil slaver! or I'm a Freedom Fighter! Or I'm a space tart, who wants to make out!?
It's up to us to try and break out of those molds a little bit. Or not, and receive the full range of eye-rolling from peers when we don't.
Katrina has put enough effort and characterization into her relationship that I daresay she's never been lumped into the standard 'space lesbian' eye rolling trope.
People who spend months and years working and fleshing out these relationships and motivations have nothing to worry about on these topics.
Wait. Andreus' player isn't actually Gay?
Also, I'm not sure if you're just doing some light trolling or not, but we are posting in a thread Titled after the pejorative term for Fake Lesbians in RP. People are always judged for playing a gender they're not in RL, for playing a sexual orientation they're not in RL, and for doing both it's worse.
... RPers tend to treat lgbtq characters with a certain condescending "I think you're immature for playing your character like that. Why can't you play a Normal person like the rest of the adults?" attitude.
They assume that people aren't actually LGBTQ, and are just doing it for the ERP/attention/edginess/futuristic-Captain-Jack-Harkness characterization.
The actual OOC homophobia doesn't bother me so much because the harder you hit on them, the funnier they get. (And then you blow them up.) Unlike with Roleplayers (with whom I am trying to have at least a semi-meaningful interaction), I don't give a fuck about talking with real homophobes. If they scream at me for being a cocksucking faggot, I just shrug and continue camping them into station or whatever. With RPers, it rankles, because you'll be having a conversation about ~stuff~ and in the back of your mind you know they're treating your character with far less respect than s/he probably deserves.
...Actually, a lot of RPers do similar things with Goons, TESTies, and low/null pvpers who try to get into Role Play. It's a very similar "you're not a genuine character, you're someone's flight of fancy. Just a vessel for momentary entertainment. Kindly leave so that the REAL RPers can do their thing", whether the issue is LGBTQ or coming from Something Awful/Reddit/Amamake.
I've absolutely no idea if this is a critique of your earlier posts because reading through them, I've no idea why you and Katrina are disagreeing.
is that Katrina doesn't feel that the critics have a leg to stand on-- that the criticism of lesbian RP is invalid regardless of the reasoning behind it and should be denounced as such.
There's definitely the potential.
Do you think a woman playing a gay male would come in for the same kind of criticism? I'm not sure she would.
That being said people who don't spend that time and effort to develop themselves and appear out of thin air to wave their desires for space lesbian sexychats in everyone's face uninvited will be met with ridicule ammunition on full broadside from me.
For most characters that happen to be lesbian, I have to have it pointed out for me to be aware of the fact.
Even if half the female players picked gay male character, you wouldn't have as many of them as Space Lesbians though. The female population of EVE is just too small.Hence why I said Potential. I did encounter the one, though, and I admit that I was the one who sneered from behind the computer screen and edged her male character out of the on-going discussion (In my defense, the character kept doing that squealing thing that people do in mangas/japanese anime.).
I believe this refers to the all common space virus which turns 95% of all female Eve RPers into lesbians. Unless there's something in the water of New Eden its at a rate and level as to imply nearly the entire capsuleer female population is gay.
Which is super fine, but we'd imagine more of a balance perhaps. I'd imagine most of these cultures are past caring about that sort of thing, of course.
If I had to put my finger on it I'd say it stems from the mostly male players behind female characters generally not interested in sexychats with other male characters, but rather other female characters. I'd imagine if I'm a hetero man RPing a relationship I'd prefer to think about a space lady than some space man's dong in my face. So to speak.
To each their own though of course!
Also the term is generally tossed about often when a 'new' female character shows up, is extremely sexual from the start, is a lesbian, and generally doesn't have much else going on beyond cruising for love in the chats, etc etc.
At least there isn't a massive proliferation of futas.
*shudder*
And I love the explanation Silas gave on straight males not wanting to ERP with males. Sounds pretty logical indeed.
In the same vein, it'd be 'logical' to assume that those people that make a fuss about 'space lesbians' have a problem with assertive, male-ish females that would pose a thread to them scoring or somesuch.
Also is Eve rp all about sex?
Elaborate. Are you saying that because someone fusses about 'Space lesbians' they are men insecure about themselves to the point of finding females portrayed as anything but squimish girls to be threatening, or that a lesbian is automatically are 'stronger' for being lesbians? Because that is a huge can of worms, as far as I'm concerned.Neither nor. I'm saying if you hold it to be the 'logical' explanation that 'space lesbians' exist is that male players don't want a "space man's dong in [their] face", then it's just as 'logical' to say males that are complaining about space lesbians have a problem with strong, assertive females.
- I want to have something nice to look at while I play my game. (yay women reduced to sex objects)
95% of players are male.
The thing is, as a recipient of the benefits of white and cisgender privilege, when someone points out that a term or phrase is offensive to them, I stop using it. I might not 'comprehend what all the fuss is about' beforehand, but being informed that it's offensive is enough for me. It does puzzle me when people (and this is more in reference to the sort of culture Jade raised rather than in reference to this thread) refuse to acknowledge that their language is offensive, demeaning and exclusionary, and insist on continuing to use it.
We don't only control our own reaction to things: we also control our own speech and behavior.
'Getting offended' may not change anything: but informing others that we have been offended is a different matter. It puts out in the open the offensive nature of some language choices, which the possessors of privilege might not have considered.
Of course, that's no guarantee they'll stop using them: but it certainly removes any excuse of ignorance, and makes perfectly clear the attitudes of those who continue to choose to use terms they now know are offensive, hurtful, and exclusionary.
Pardon moi for Necroing
Elaborate. Are you saying that because someone fusses about 'Space lesbians' they are men insecure about themselves to the point of finding females portrayed as anything but squimish girls to be threatening, or that a lesbian is automatically are 'stronger' for being lesbians? Because that is a huge can of worms, as far as I'm concerned.Neither nor. I'm saying if you hold it to be the 'logical' explanation that 'space lesbians' exist is that male players don't want a "space man's dong in [their] face", then it's just as 'logical' to say males that are complaining about space lesbians have a problem with strong, assertive females.
Which is to say, neither follows by any form of formal logic, at least. It's both a 'commonsense psychological' explanation at it's best and probably something worse.
95% of players are male.
Not true. I don't recall where I got it from, but there was apparently a study checking up on this that sat the bar more along the lines of 55% male 45% female for gamers in general. Assuming the same goes for EVE (I see no reason why it should not) then barely over half off all EVE players are male.
I don't think women are as unusual in EVE as people think they are. Not a majority maybe, but I'd say closer to 20% than 5%.
That being said people who don't spend that time and effort to develop themselves and appear out of thin air to wave their desires for space lesbian sexychats in everyone's face uninvited will be met with ridicule ammunition on full broadside from me.
That being said people who don't spend that time and effort to develop themselves and appear out of thin air to wave their desires for space lesbian sexychats in everyone's face uninvited will be met with ridicule ammunition on full broadside from me.
Funnily enough in the posthuman cultural melange of eve online (influenced admittedly from my enjoyment of the culture novels and similarly sexy scifi Utopias) I find it far easier to believe the characterisation of lesbian / bi / gay / transgendered / fetish / queer / kink / whatever sexychats without prior background development and accredited RP certificate of approval, than I do the average tyrannical space warlord or knuckle-dragging religious extremist.
Guy comes from nowhere and claims to be a hotshot dangerous pirate or übermerc, alliance warlord etc and I am extremely cynical about that characterisation because most likely they never anything to earn the rep. I'm being asked to give credence to something I highly doubt has basis in game reality and that's something I do find a bit jarring (see my many past RP scandals and wars and whatnot).
On the other hand I see a couple of neon facepaint wearing space lesbians making out with fruit bowls, hair clips and dog collars in the Holofeed and that does absolutely nothing to break my suspension of disbelief or to damage my immersion in the setting. On the contrary eve is (was) as seedy, adult, beautiful tacky world of weird and wonderful sexuality and blade runner visuals with human life as cheap as the morals, ethics and general disposition of its population. Star Wars cantina scene with more dildos, spiked collars and poppers basically.
This is the game world where the most esteemed Amarrian cleric of the early years kept naked golden slave children in cages for heavens sake... It's always been pretty ripe.
I guess the summary is that sexytime space lesbians work for me as believable background to a space age posthuman vision of the ultra rich near immortal capsule pilot caste. Certainly far better than tough guy pirates who mostly run level 4 missions and would dare say boo to a goose in lowsec. Then again I have always loved futuristic orgy scenes in racy scifi movies :)
It needs to be pointed out when the character isn't half-sleep. (Or the player.) :pFor most characters that happen to be lesbian, I have to have it pointed out for me to be aware of the fact.Morwen outed herself to Makkal the other day.
She didn't even blink an eye. She just closed them both and passed out without even noticing. :lol:
[..]women also seem to have a larger slice of the roleplaying community than the game's population at large.That is also my perception. I was surprised to see that in the "Show Yourself" thread revealed a surprising proportion of female players. I'd say the slice of female RP-ers is about 15-25%.
That might just be my own perception, mind you.
Prior to the Jell-O match, someone suggests Pieter tear off Ava's shirt to show her boobs.Actually, it was also during the match, and Ché was totally expecting Ava to wear a bra. He said nothing about boobs.
On the other hand I see a couple of neon facepaint wearing space lesbians making out with fruit bowls, hair clips and dog collars in the Holofeed and that does absolutely nothing to break my suspension of disbelief or to damage my immersion in the setting. On the contrary eve is (was) as seedy, adult, beautiful tacky world of weird and wonderful sexuality and blade runner visuals with human life as cheap as the morals, ethics and general disposition of its population. Star Wars cantina scene with more dildos, spiked collars and poppers basically.That's how I always imagined Gallente Federation, where they put hedonism to extreme :lol:
'Going nuts' is not the norm.
Eve might be a posthuman cultural melange, but it's players and creators are from the real world.
Therefore, it's fine to criticize the sexualization of characters from a real world standpoint.
Prior to the Jell-O match, someone suggests Pieter tear off Ava's shirt to show her boobs. No one suggested Ava tear off Pieter's briefs to show his dick.
Why? Because they're not people from a far flung future. They're a bunch of modern day people siting in front of computers and the content they create reflects that.
We're going to drift seriously off-topic if we start talking about 'the point' of RPing and how that concerns depictions of gender and sexuality
The whole Europe for like a thousand of years was theocratic "state".'Going nuts' is not the norm.
One might argue a theocratic state of trillions is the veritable epitome of the phrase ...
The whole Europe for like a thousand of years was theocratic "state".'Going nuts' is not the norm.
One might argue a theocratic state of trillions is the veritable epitome of the phrase ...
Religion is just a part of world-view. It is a philosophy, a substitution to thing that you cannot test or prove scientifically. It is a desire to understand the world without knowing the facts. And it is in human's nature.
Anyway, then everyone is nuts. Those, who believe in religion. Those, who believe in atheism. Those, who believe in ideals of communism. Those, who believe in ideals of democracy. Those, who believe their "fuhrer". And those, who believe nothing and just work as machines. Or do other stuff like rabbits. And eventually those, who play online games instead of growing crops. We all are nuts. Especially space lesbians.
That being said people who don't spend that time and effort to develop themselves and appear out of thin air to wave their desires for space lesbian sexychats in everyone's face uninvited will be met with ridicule ammunition on full broadside from me.
Funnily enough in the posthuman cultural melange of eve online (influenced admittedly from my enjoyment of the culture novels and similarly sexy scifi Utopias) I find it far easier to believe the characterisation of lesbian / bi / gay / transgendered / fetish / queer / kink / whatever sexychats without prior background development and accredited RP certificate of approval, than I do the average tyrannical space warlord or knuckle-dragging religious extremist.
Guy comes from nowhere and claims to be a hotshot dangerous pirate or übermerc, alliance warlord etc and I am extremely cynical about that characterisation because most likely they never anything to earn the rep. I'm being asked to give credence to something I highly doubt has basis in game reality and that's something I do find a bit jarring (see my many past RP scandals and wars and whatnot).
On the other hand I see a couple of neon facepaint wearing space lesbians making out with fruit bowls, hair clips and dog collars in the Holofeed and that does absolutely nothing to break my suspension of disbelief or to damage my immersion in the setting. On the contrary eve is (was) as seedy, adult, beautiful tacky world of weird and wonderful sexuality and blade runner visuals with human life as cheap as the morals, ethics and general disposition of its population. Star Wars cantina scene with more dildos, spiked collars and poppers basically.
This is the game world where the most esteemed Amarrian cleric of the early years kept naked golden slave children in cages for heavens sake... It's always been pretty ripe.
I guess the summary is that sexytime space lesbians work for me as believable background to a space age posthuman vision of the ultra rich near immortal capsule pilot caste. Certainly far better than tough guy pirates who mostly run level 4 missions and would dare say boo to a goose in lowsec. Then again I have always loved futuristic orgy scenes in racy scifi movies :)
[..]women also seem to have a larger slice of the roleplaying community than the game's population at large.That is also my perception. I was surprised to see that in the "Show Yourself" thread revealed a surprising proportion of female players. I'd say the slice of female RP-ers is about 15-25%.
That might just be my own perception, mind you.Prior to the Jell-O match, someone suggests Pieter tear off Ava's shirt to show her boobs.Actually, it was also during the match, and Ché was totally expecting Ava to wear a bra. He said nothing about boobs.
... :eek:
Wait...when Ava was upside down...she was wearing underwear underneath her skirt, right?
Nice rant but not sure theocratic/fascist/communist/centrist/nutbag dehumanising tyranny is quite the same as ribald salacious hip jiggling and gender ambivalence on your average pride march.With all due respect, and accepting the fact that I am not very skilled in english, I recommend you to understand meaning of the word "tyranny" before using it. Because it is not of english origin and existing in many other languages.
Yeah...no. Anglophone Cultures are not host to a post-heteronormative society IRL. Not by a long shot. Not yet, anyway.QuotePrior to the Jell-O match, someone suggests Pieter tear off Ava's shirt to show her boobs. No one suggested Ava tear off Pieter's briefs to show his dick.
Why? Because they're not people from a far flung future. They're a bunch of modern day people siting in front of computers and the content they create reflects that.
Or maybe none of the roleplayers present were gay/bi or playing male gay/bi inclined characters? And as for modern day people's preferences on these things .... Have you watched the starz tv show "spartacus" that's one of the most splendidly over the top hyper sexualised beefcake blends of homo/straight eroticism I've ever seen and its been wildly successful tv for the creators. It's modern day people paying subs and watching that show.
I could be wrong, but I think, Jade, that you're misinterpreting what Makkal is saying (Or maybe I'm the one misinterpreting Makkal's statement!).Eve might be a posthuman cultural melange, but it's players and creators are from the real world.
Therefore, it's fine to criticize the sexualization of characters from a real world standpoint.
Not sure I understand your point here completely. Surely the point of any (most) roleplaying game(s) is to suspend ones out of character standpoints and cultural preferences in favour of those make believe background elements from the game itself? I cannot really see how critical analysis of scifi Eve sexuality and mores from the perspective of contemporary earth cultural bias is any more useful or pertinent then perhaps criticising the collective delusion that makes office workers and IT professionals convince themselves they are bloodythirsty space pilots and warlords of the future? Sure perhaps its basis for academic study or media fascination, but as a useful discussion of RP preferences ... Hmm, I'm not really convinced.
I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.
As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.
Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...
It's hard to not get a bit cynical.
And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.
I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.
As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.
Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...
It's hard to not get a bit cynical.
And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.
Though I understand that Gwen's remarks may be difficult to answer, I would like to see others' thoughts on this.
I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.
As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.
Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...
It's hard to not get a bit cynical.
And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.
Though I understand that Gwen's remarks may be difficult to answer, I would like to see others' thoughts on this.
I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.
As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.
Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...
It's hard to not get a bit cynical.
And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.
Though I understand that Gwen's remarks may be difficult to answer, I would like to see others' thoughts on this.
For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
Wait... what?
I hope you're not trying to imply that real life transgendered people are "crass hyper sexualization of femininity". That's rather offensive, if so.
What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.
So, Drag Queens. And even the Queens aren't doing it just for the sex. It's an entire subculture, and not just a sexual subculture either.For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
Wait... what?
I hope you're not trying to imply that real life transgendered people are "crass hyper sexualization of femininity". That's rather offensive, if so.
What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.
But really, its just sex. Do what you please, and as long as it pleases you and your partner its no business of mine to criticise.
For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
'Trannies?' Seriously?
Transwomen are women. They are not a 'crass hyper sexualization.' Some of them might be highly sexual but what a woman chooses to do with her body and who she does it with isn't comparable to men role-playing as lesbians online.
That leaves drag queens, and drag typically involves camp, not getting off.
You're kind of grasping at straws here.
Follow-up (because I've never asked any of my irl friends this and I'm genuinely curious): How about two actual women, who are straight, pretending to be lesbians to attract men(presumably in a club or bar)?
Look at it this way, a couple of guys pretending to be ersatz space lesbians and sexing each other up on the internet and finding themselves getting off on the alternative gender roles are quite unlikely be marching around town centres with "death 2 queers" and "faggots burn In hell" placards come their weekend off.
In the grand scheme of things I think that's a more significant takeaway than concerns about fake space lesbians trespassing on the sacred aura of true space lesbians with their chintzy makeup, false lashes and exaggerated sultry walks. Homophobia kills people irl, however that curse is diminished has got to be worth considering in the light of pure pragmatic enlightened self interest.
For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
Look at it this way, a couple of guys pretending to be ersatz space lesbians and sexing each other up on the internet and finding themselves getting off on the alternative gender roles are quite unlikely be marching around town centres with "death 2 queers" and "faggots burn In hell" placards come their weekend off.
In the grand scheme of things I think that's a more significant takeaway than concerns about fake space lesbians trespassing on the sacred aura of true space lesbians with their chintzy makeup, false lashes and exaggerated sultry walks. Homophobia kills people irl, however that curse is diminished has got to be worth considering in the light of pure pragmatic enlightened self interest.
I've seen this idea thrown around a lot in regard to this topic, but it's a fallacy. Let me say, hopefully without offending any parties reading that fit the bill and do it well, that I have met some absolutely unambiguously sexist and homophobically hateful individuals who play "lesbian" characters in MMORPGS.
For example, there was an individual who I knew on WoW, god knows how many years ago, who played a bisexual (but realistically, only interested in females) night elf. He was relatively open about the fact that OOCly, he found lesbians to be perverted and self-deluded deviants, but his philosophy was that if playing one is fun, hey, nothing wrong with that, right? With one hand he would make a carnally driven farce out of something I considered very serious, and with the other he'd contribute to an overall hostile environment for me, personally.
Portraying something in roleplay doesn't at all imply acceptance or even tolerance.
And for the record, it's not extremists who around "marching around town centers" and cracking peoples heads open that cause me the most grief in day to day life by a long shot. It's the far greater amount of people contributing in a thousand small ways to the subtle culture of disrespect and passive hatred. Of which the person described above is certainly one.
So you'll forgive me if I don't feel much in the way of "englightened self interest" in being completely cool with the stuff, especially when it's an instance that effects me on an individual level.For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
I'm not sure what to say about this that others haven't already than:
1. I find the comparison between someone who is playing a character on a video game that they get up and walk away from every night to someone who is commiting completely to fundementally changing their identity to correct something that brings them considerable personal misery to be a bit ludicrous, especially since they are very rarely guilty of "crass hyper sexualisation".
What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.
Then you're speaking of transvestites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism) and "shemales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-male)" and should make that clear, as saying "transgender" implies you're speaking of the entire transgender community, of which most of us happen to be transgendered for gender identity and not "sexual thrill".
Your example wow player sounds like an absolutely horrible person. I wouldn't give him the time of day. I am sure there are some similarly horrid people who play eve, but I am not sure the existence of such people means that he average space lesbian is similarly motivated.
On your latter point, transvestites actually do tend to dress normally as men during the day and go out to clubs dressed as hypersexualised women at night. Believe me, I have known quite a few!
Perhaps is best to agree we set aside transgendered people from the earlier question and concentrate purely on transvestites for the sake of a less emotionally charged discussion?
What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.
Then you're speaking of transvestites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism) and "shemales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-male)" and should make that clear, as saying "transgender" implies you're speaking of the entire transgender community, of which most of us happen to be transgendered for gender identity and not "sexual thrill".
You are right, I've edited the initial question to specifically address transvestites. Apologies for confusion caused.
What I mean to imply/pretty overtly state, above is that a person taking offence at two men roleplaying space lesbians in an online game because it cheapens their own rl identity as a genuine female lesbian in some way is not greatly different from the argument that a man dressing up as a woman for erotic purposes irl is somehow mocking the sacred sexuality of the female form.
Then you're speaking of transvestites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism) and "shemales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-male)" and should make that clear, as saying "transgender" implies you're speaking of the entire transgender community, of which most of us happen to be transgendered for gender identity and not "sexual thrill".
You are right, I've edited the initial question to specifically address transvestites. Apologies for confusion caused.
Incidentally Jade FYI. One transgendered person of my acquaintance uses the term trannie jokingly. However most that I have met regard it as in poor taste at best, and hate speech at worst. Just so you know for future reference.
Look at it this way, a couple of guys pretending to be ersatz space lesbians and sexing each other up on the internet and finding themselves getting off on the alternative gender roles are quite unlikely be marching around town centres with "death 2 queers" and "faggots burn In hell" placards come their weekend off.
well guess its time to burn space lesbians at the stake then and force people to re-roll their female avatars or play proper hetro cross dressers in the future.
well guess its time to burn space lesbians at the stake then and force people to re-roll their female avatars or play proper hetro cross dressers in the future.
As someone that is roleplaying(?) a straight female I'm good though right?
Needs me some validation.
well guess its time to burn space lesbians at the stake then and force people to re-roll their female avatars or play proper hetro cross dressers in the future.
As someone that is roleplaying(?) a straight female I'm good though right?
Needs me some validation.
Only if you have proper "hetro" relations with men. (or women playing men I guess) :)
(or if you play a celibate amarrian space nun, those are fine too!)
well guess its time to burn space lesbians at the stake then and force people to re-roll their female avatars or play proper hetro cross dressers in the future.That's a bit over-dramatic.
well guess its time to burn space lesbians at the stake then and force people to re-roll their female avatars or play proper hetro cross dressers in the future.That's a bit over-dramatic.
well guess its time to burn space lesbians at the stake then and force people to re-roll their female avatars or play proper hetro cross dressers in the future.That's a bit over-dramatic.
Yeah, I totally agree. Just tie them to the stake and leave them till they renounce their wicked ways.
well guess its time to burn space lesbians at the stake then and force people to re-roll their female avatars or play proper hetro cross dressers in the future.That's a bit over-dramatic.
Yeah, I totally agree. Just tie them to the stake and leave them till they renounce their wicked ways.
Cold baths and electro shock therapy might work.
For that matter, what do the genuine lesbians in our audience make of real life trannies, transgendered and drag queens? Does the crass hyper sexualisation of feminine aspects on view offend sensibilities to a similar extent?
'Trannies?' Seriously?
Transwomen are women. They are not a 'crass hyper sexualization.' Some of them might be highly sexual but what a woman chooses to do with her body and who she does it with isn't comparable to men role-playing as lesbians online.
That leaves drag queens, and drag typically involves camp, not getting off.
You're kind of grasping at straws here.
There may be some linguistic confusion here. In the UK, the term trannie can be shorthand for transvestite as well as transsexual (both pre and post op) - perhaps what you would see as a drag queen would be the tamer children's panto version of transvestism that is quite innocent, but full transvestism amongst consenting adults certainly moves into the realms of erotic encounters and as you so delicately term it "getting off".
As to the question of crass hypersexualisation, both you and the poster above misread the question I actually asked by changing the quotes around to simulate an offensive allusion ... please don't do it. I specifically addressed the correlation between real lesbians being offended by fake online lesbians portraying sexuality in a crass manner, and real lesbians (of whom I have many amongst my friends in Brighton) perhaps being offended at the crass hypersexualisation of feminine aspects on view amongst transvestites attending bars and clubs around my home town (some of which also happen to be amongst my friends).
I wondered aloud if you would be as offended by a pair of men dressed as women flirting at a dance club irl as you might be by a pair of men playing sexualised female characters in an online game?
I find it a bit tacky to make jokes about killing and torturing lesbians in a thread where two posters have said they're lesbians.
See, you've got to make use of the shift key, to make it clear, Jade. "Space Lesbians", not space lesbians. Don't want to confuse Space Lesbians with lesbians in space...Sure sure, we're taking the piss out of
Am I the only one who's reminded of this, suddenly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZhtT-dUyo)?
Can we all just agree at least that "Space Lesbian" is an utterly stupid meme and we should work as a community to stop using it? Its crap. I understand the stereotypical bad roleplayer that you're attempting to call out with it, but there are better ways that don't marginalize all lesbian characters or make lesbian players feel uncomfortable about playing their own orientations.
See, you've got to make use of the shift key, to make it clear, Jade. "Space Lesbians", not space lesbians. Don't want to confuse Space Lesbians with lesbians in space...Sure sure, we're taking the piss out of
Am I the only one who's reminded of this, suddenly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZhtT-dUyo)?S P A C E L E S B I A N S
Not SERIOUS SPACE LESBIANS OR LESBIANS IN SPACE which are quite different things... clearly.
Though I think I'd like another term to describe SPACE RELATIONSHIPS with men playing women and women playing pretend lesbians while actually both parts are kinda hetro though the chap is dressing up like a lady and the women pretends she doesn't know. Is there a word for that?
See, you've got to make use of the shift key, to make it clear, Jade. "Space Lesbians", not space lesbians. Don't want to confuse Space Lesbians with lesbians in space...Sure sure, we're taking the piss out of
Am I the only one who's reminded of this, suddenly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZhtT-dUyo)?S P A C E L E S B I A N S
Not SERIOUS SPACE LESBIANS OR LESBIANS IN SPACE which are quite different things... clearly.
Though I think I'd like another term to describe SPACE RELATIONSHIPS with men playing women and women playing pretend lesbians while actually both parts are kinda hetro though the chap is dressing up like a lady and the women pretends she doesn't know. Is there a word for that?