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General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 19 Jun 2013, 11:33
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3227436#post3227436
#1Posted: 2013.06.19 11:08 | Edited by: CCP Rise
Alright, after far too much time, I think we're as close as we're going to get to finished with these.
Before numbers, let me explain what we're going for here. Before Odyssey, the biggest decision related to tech 1 Industrialas was: how much time do you want to spend training (and how much battle badgering do you want to do), and based on the answer you chose one of 4 industrials. Not only did we eliminate that decision in Odyssey by making the prereqs for all Industrials only 1 level of the relevant skill, we also have 12 Industrials in the game, not 4. So what I'm hoping to accomplish here is provide some more depth to the choice of which Industrial is best for you!
The way we're accomplishing that is by setting up 2 distinct roles within each race's industrial line-up, and also making sure that from race to race you have comparable power (rather than just having Itty 5 be king ruler of industrials). One of these roles is focused purely on cargo capacity, sacrificing survivability and speed, and the other gives up cargo for substantially higher base hp and align time along with improved signature radius and base speed.
Unfortunately, while we had some neat ideas, we weren't able to agree on something fun to do with the extra indies that Minmatar and Gallente have without either creating substantial racial imbalance or needing major resources that we would rather commit somewhere else. For now, these ships will be balanced around the others, falling somewhere between the 2 roles described above. See second post in the thread for a more in-depth explanation related to these ships, as well as some other details about this class.
Below I will list the changes for the Industrials focused on speed and tank first, then pure cargo, and finally the leftover awkward bunch.
Let us know what you think!
SIGIL
Amarr Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H, 4M(+1), 6L(+1); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 250 PWG(+180), 750 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 2600(-400) / 21234m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 780(+624) / 1320(+304) / 2400(+1540)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 125(-30) / .88(-.12) / 10500000(-500000) / 12.8(-2.4)
Signature radius: 175(-35)
BADGER
Caldari Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H(+1), 5M(+3), 5L(+3); 1 turrets , 1 launchers
Fittings: 185 PWG(+135), 950 CPU(+200)
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 3700(-425) / 18588m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1440(+1166) / 810(+67) / 2060(+1200)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 127(+7) / .89(+.1) / 10450000(-2300000) / 12.9(-1.1)
Signature radius: 190(-30)
WREATHE
Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H(+1), 5M(+3), 5L(+3); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 200 PWG(+155), 800 CPU(+200)
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 3100(-200) / 19857m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1140(+1061) / 1080(+337) / 2250(+1469)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 140(+15) / .81(-.19) / 11000000(-200000) / 12.35(-1.5)
Signature radius: 155(-5)
Iteron
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H(+1), 5M(+3), 5L(+3); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 215 PWG(+170), 750 CPU(+150)
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 3300(+200) / 21138m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 960(+881) / 1200(+419) / 2600(+1819)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130(+5) / .78(-.22) / 11250000(+1000000) / 12.2(-2)
Signature radius: 185(-5)
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BESTOWER
Amarr Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H(-1), 4M, 6L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 90 PWG(+20), 750 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4800 / 39201m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 160(-35) / 935(-238) / 900(-273)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110(-15) / 1 / 13500000 / 18.7
Signature radius: 215(+5)
BADGER MARK II
Caldari Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H(-1), 6M, 4L(+1); 1 turrets , 1 launchers
Fittings: 80 PWG, 1000 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 7000(+1750) / 35167m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 680(+132) / 760(-256) / 810(-206)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .93 / 13000000(-500000) / 16.8(-.6)
Signature radius: 230(-20)
HOARDER
Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H, 5M(+2), 5L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 80 PWG(+20), 750 CPU(+100)
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 5700(+600) / 36511m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 310(+36) / 825(-191) / 935(-81)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .91(-.09) / 11500000 / 14.5(-1.4)
Signature radius: 200(+20)
ITERON MARK V
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H(-1), 5M, 5L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 85 PWG, 850 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 6000 / 38433m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 375(-94) / 850(-518) / 970(-515)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 / .87(-.13) / 12500000(+750000) / 15.1(-1.2)
Signature radius: 220(-10)
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ITERON MARK II
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 2H, 5M, 4L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 190 PWG, 780 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4600 / 23110m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 800 / 1110 / 2150
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 125 / .85 / 11625000 / 13.7
Signature radius: 185
ITERON MARK III
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 2H, 5M, 4L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 150 PWG, 800 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4900 / 24617m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 675 / 1025 / 1785
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .87 / 11500000 / 13.9
Signature radius: 195
ITERON MARK IV
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 5L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 120 PWG, 825 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 5100 / 28931m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 525 / 940 / 1370
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .9 / 11975000 / 15
Signature radius: 205
MAMMOTH
Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 2H, 5M, 4L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 140 PWG, 775 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4400 / 22105m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 690 / 1050 / 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .91 / 11375000 / 14.3
Signature radius: 190
Before the posting begins, I want to address a few topics that we've been discussing both here in the office and with the CSM. Hopefully this will help to answer some of the more common questions before they even get asked =)
First, something kind of simple: why the Hoarder instead of the Mammoth? This basically comes down to art direction. At earlier stages in this rebalance we considered both removing some ships from the game, and also adding more. Part of that discussion led to art asking that we use the Hoarder rather than the Mammoth as one of the primary Minmatar industrials.
There have been some concerns that the role focused on tank and speed is not actually tanky enough. Its true that they will still be vulnerable to suicide ganks, and easily killed outside of high sec, but relative to their former variations they have gained quite a bit of power. The tank focused role is getting about 50% more base hp than the old iteron 5, and most of it lies in structure where a simple DCU will add a lot of effective points for very little cost. On top of that, they have increased fitting, much better align time, and higher base velocity. Overall this should provide for a real decision when picking a hauler, just remember that at the end of the day its still a T1 hauler.
The CSM particularly has expressed concerns that the class as a whole is becoming too homogenized. I want to assure everyone that I'm very sensitive about this idea as well, and that we all agree there is a lot of value in variation and racial identity. The challenge with industrials is that unlike most other ship classes, their value rests almost exclusively in 1 or 2 attributes (capacity and low slots), so when attempting to add flavor, the reality is that we would simply be limiting actual options. I have tried to preserve as much racial flavor as possible via some slot differences, differences in speed and align time, sig and little things like caldari being the only race with launchers on their industrials. At a higher level, we really do feel that because this class is so specific in function, consolidating all the industrials to one or two ships would probably be the most sensible design, but because we value history and racial flavor, we've left all the ships available and tried to find enough variation to make them each valuable in their own way.
Last, I want to talk a little about the 4 'extra' industrials. These were an incredibly hot topic here at the office, and we considered a really wide range of options for them. In the end, we felt that removing them from the game probably didn't add a lot of value, and would have been a disappointing departure from EVE history, but on the other side, giving them a job that was interesting and valuable but only available for Gallente and Minmatar felt unfair. Our hope is that some time in the near future, perhaps because of new industry development, we will find a home for them that either makes sense with the current assets, or warrants adding new industrial ships to the game to balance out all those Iterons. Until then, they will be a bit marginalized. I hope that because of having real choices within the two new roles, you will see the class as gaining a lot of depth, despite four of the ships falling outside those roles.
Thanks for reading, looking forward to feedback as always.
Bestower, Best.
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So... T1 pseudo-blockade runners?
Badger still a pvp monster (lol)?
I don't :get: industrials :(
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Badger, the highest DPS industrial! (Two highslots, two hardpoints - admitted, split weapons.)
In general, I do like what I see. I expect some... discussion from the Minmatar camp, though. Also lots of complaining about Transports. I don't think people get that the transports' role isn't necessarily to carry maximum volume of cargo.
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as i posted elsewhere
To be honest, i would have liked at least 3 types of t1 industrials:
1) speedy and agile, with small tank all mids and some variation in fits.
2) bulky and strong with added flexibility in slots, average speed and agility.
3) all out cargo monster, extremely slow, lowest agility, all lows and minimal options to fit.
Balancing racial flavos across those would mean more or less slots/signature/base stats.....but would have provided quite a bit more to choose from in terms of utility and purpose.
and would also have paved the way to t2 stuff, specialization meant that the speedy hauler would have been the blockade runner, while the tanky hauler would have been the deep space transport.
The hauling monster would remain t1 only.
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Changes to Bestower and Sigil are great.
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I'm not really a hauler - I use them for moving crap around from time to time, but that's it. At the same time, the changes to the Iteron line confuse me. Especially the Itty V.
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Changes to Bestower and Sigil are great.
Unless you spent a couple months getting your hauling accounts trained in Gallente industrial because they were the best at the time. Also it's a pretty ugly ship, even for an industrial.
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Changes to Bestower and Sigil are great.
Unless you spent a couple months getting your hauling accounts trained in Gallente industrial because they were the best at the time. Also it's a pretty ugly ship, even for an industrial.
Makkal Hanaya > Does a Sigil have a 'good fit' or can I tool around in just anything?
Kalaratiri > there is no such thing as a good sigil
Kalaratiri > it is a weevil
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui > if you can fly a Sigil, you can fly a Bestower
Makkal Hanaya > I picked the Sigil over the Bestower because it's the lesser of two weevils.
I laughed for a long time.
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Changes to Bestower and Sigil are great.
Unless you spent a couple months getting your hauling accounts trained in Gallente industrial because they were the best at the time. Also it's a pretty ugly ship, even for an industrial.
Well, you shouldn't have been crosstraining anyway!
Also, yes, Sigil is ugly. Bestower, on the other hand, is best-looking industrial and one of the best-looking ships overall.
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They are trying to homogenize everything a little too much I think.
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Actually I meant the bestower was ugly. It looks too cartoon-y to be an Amarr ship. Sigil looks ok.
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Actually I meant the bestower was ugly. It looks too cartoon-y to be an Amarr ship. Sigil looks ok.
I don't get how anyone can view the Bestower as ugly. Or well. It's ugly in a good way. It looks exactly like an Amarr industrial should look. Big, intimidating, and rough, yet still bearing the smooth golden hull and symmetry of Amarrian manufacture.
Sigil, on the other hand, is a flying slug. I hate that ship. It's the worst-looking industrial, IMO.
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I used to hate the huge breast cancer slug (©Thorolfur) that was the sigil, but now I love it too !
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Makkal Hanaya > Does a Sigil have a 'good fit' or can I tool around in just anything?
Kalaratiri > there is no such thing as a good sigil
Kalaratiri > it is a weevil
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui > if you can fly a Sigil, you can fly a Bestower
Makkal Hanaya > I picked the Sigil over the Bestower because it's the lesser of two weevils.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNL0KfD0nts
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Also lots of complaining about Transports. I don't think people get that the transports' role isn't necessarily to carry maximum volume of cargo.
Certainly not with this change. You can poor-man its role soon (tm) pretty easily.
Also, I expect to see changes to the T2 Haulers in the future.
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As do I, Dex. That note was based entirely on people complaining on the forums that these changes meant that the T2 industrials were now "crap".
As for homogenizing, I do actually this time welcome the changes. Would have to look at align time and shield/armor/hull hitpoint balance more closely to see if there's something there, but no one complains that freighters lack character. The old system - specially on Iterons - more or less relied on tiers. Now that the tiers are gone, that simply does not work. And while that's being changed, perhaps it's time to have a good look on the class as a whole. What surprises me most is that CPU is not being touched - as I understand that it is a remnant from times when industrials were meant to be possibly flying factories.
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I think they should trow on some dedicated cargo bays in addition to the already existing ones. Then make variety between factions/ships in what items can be stored in the dedicated bay. Say, ice/isotopes for Badgers, PI goods for Iterons, scrap metal for the Hoarder and so on.
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I dunno, this particular piece of tiericide strikes me as fixing something that wasn't, in all honesty, broken.
Then again it's not terrible, so fair enough, I guess.
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I think they should trow on some dedicated cargo bays in addition to the already existing ones. Then make variety between factions/ships in what items can be stored in the dedicated bay. Say, ice/isotopes for Badgers, PI goods for Iterons, scrap metal for the Hoarder and so on.
Agh! I would not break that sort of concept down racially and put it in the T1 industrials. I could see introducing rigs that enable that (create dedicated bay that is larger than the space lost in the normal one) or faction variants (Interstellar Transport Iteron) that allow for that.
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Makkal Hanaya > Does a Sigil have a 'good fit' or can I tool around in just anything?
Kalaratiri > there is no such thing as a good sigil
Kalaratiri > it is a weevil
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui > if you can fly a Sigil, you can fly a Bestower
Makkal Hanaya > I picked the Sigil over the Bestower because it's the lesser of two weevils.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNL0KfD0nts
That was exactly why I was laughing :P
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It's not something truly "broken", per se, but it is something that people have been begging for on the forums for a long time... and right now, CCP's course of action seems to be "answer the forum suggestions. ALL OF THEM."
Anyhow, I will be more interested in seeing how gank-resistant people can make these new haulers. Previously hauling anything of significant value in a T1 hauler was pretty much a death sentence, but some of these new haulers (lol 6low bestower) look like they could be made pretty tanky without sacrificing cargo capacity.
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I dunno, this particular piece of tiericide strikes me as fixing something that wasn't, in all honesty, broken.
Then again it's not terrible, so fair enough, I guess.
T1 industrials have been broken for as long as the Iteron Mark 5 has existed, pretty much. In their own self-contained universe, the Itty 5 is king and everyone else is used 'because you cant use an Iteron 5'. This was made massively worse by the skill tiericide and the Itty 5 became usable out the door. By homogenizing cargo sizes so the gap is less substantial, and other factors become important, there is reason for variation to exist.
What I am hopeful for is that they can get art pipeline to develop new industrials for the Amarr and Caldari. If the numbers equal out so there is 4 or 5 T1 industrials per race, you can make semi-specialized haulers without racial exclusion. For example, T1 blockade runner, T1 all-purpose cargo hauler, T1 Planetary Goods cargo hauler, T1 ore hauler.
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New thread started with a new OP, since that's what CCP Rise did. Seems like he redid the balancing completely. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5039.0)