Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Galen Darksmith on 18 Jun 2013, 10:28
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Didn't see a thread for this one, apologies if I missed it.
So, despite being on an enforced break from EVE for a month or two (damn you just slightly insufficient laptop!) I find myself unable to keep away from the forums and newsfeeds. The Broteau arc in particular has me intrigued: where are CCP going with this? Is this some kind of first step in breakdowns between allies, resulting in an free for all? Or maybe just a loosening of bonds to the point where you can't farm LP in your allies FW zones anymore?
The summit reactions have been quite interesting to watch.
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Didn't know you still played at all:)
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Came back a couple of months ago at the request of an RL friend. "Try wormholes," he said. "PvP is awesome without local," he said.
Dammit, why did he have to be right?
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I'll have to come run around with you sometime then.
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Absolutely! I should be capable of doing more than updating skill queues sometime in August, maybe we can roam null or low looking for a scrap.
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Came back a couple of months ago at the request of an RL friend. "Try wormholes," he said. "PvP is awesome without local," he said.
Dammit, why did he have to be right?
Because wormhole space is fun and sexy.
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Didn't see a thread for this one, apologies if I missed it.
So, despite being on an enforced break from EVE for a month or two (damn you just slightly insufficient laptop!) I find myself unable to keep away from the forums and newsfeeds. The Broteau arc in particular has me intrigued: where are CCP going with this? Is this some kind of first step in breakdowns between allies, resulting in an free for all? Or maybe just a loosening of bonds to the point where you can't farm LP in your allies FW zones anymore?
The summit reactions have been quite interesting to watch.
Either way, I've been deeply enjoying the arc. I've been in a position since about 2005 of having to come up with increasingly flimsy IC reasons for the OOC choices I've made with Shin (i.e.: flying with Omerta Syndicate, despite the fact that Shin's politics are about as diametrically opposed as you can get), while struggling with a lack of IC "holy fire" every time I've come back to the game. The Colelie/Broteau arc has provided me with a way to bring Shin back to her beliefs, as well as giving me something to really sink my teeth into.
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My only worry is that, if the dissolution of the Federation-Republic alliance isn't their objective, CCP may have gone a little overboard with the whole "Republic Invasion" angle. If the Republic had sent in a fleet of Maelstroms with Hurricane support, or even just a cruiser contingent, that would have served to symbolically show their irritation over Broteau. Sending in dreads, though...that's beyond the pale. That's "We could destroy a space station if we wanted" kind of firepower. I wonder if CCP underestimates the political damage that kind of breach would cause.
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I think it's a direction CCP has wanted to take the Minmatar for a while. After all, they dropped a fleet of dreads on the CONCORD HQ in Yulai, before. I'm personally highly in favor of it. :D
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Yes, but CONCORD and the Federation are two whole different ballgames.
I suppose I just don't envy Republic players right about now. They're left in the awkward position of having to play guessing games as to what their government actually wants. Never easy at the best of times, maddening in a situation like this.
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Yeah, but it provides a very interesting RP opportunity for Republic players. Historically there haven't been many "hard choice" moments to polarize Republic RPers: Karin Midular talking with the Empire, and possibly the planet that seceded to join the Cartel. Other than those moments, it's all been "We must fight the Empire! Rawr!"
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I am enjoying this story arc immensely. Especially because the opinions of the player characters chipping in is very diverse, contrary to the Heth arc where public opinion is very one-sided. It provides a good dynamic and a possibility to show and shape ones character's personality.
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I am enjoying this story arc immensely. Especially because the opinions of the player characters chipping in is very diverse, contrary to the Heth arc where public opinion is very one-sided. It provides a good dynamic and a possibility to show and shape ones character's personality.
Agree whole-heartedly there, even if it's not my main's personality that's being developed by it.
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As someone on the Federation side, i'm enjoying this arc just for the fact Matari and Gallente are no longer "happy friends sharing cake", the tribal assembly is becoming strong enough to start kicking Fed nuts once in a while.
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IMO it would be most accurate to say that they've been forced, rather abruptly and rudely I admit, to acknowledge that they are a faction with just as many shitty, horrible, dark facets as any of the other factions, and that they'll no longer be able to play the victim card with impunity to 'win' arguments like they used to. This is a good thing. It means that some of the over-used "unassailable" arguments will be attackable, which will allow arguments to stop being killed off because of the victim card.
It's not a particularly nice position to be put in, but I think it is worse for the position to have been allowed to come into play in the first place through the lack of available PF (Voluval implications aside) openly stating that the Minmatar were just as grimdark as anyone else.
And before people start pointing at the Federation... this was an issue for the Federation up until the aftermath of TEA, with the formation of the Black Eagles and the Eturrer immolation. It's about time that the Minmatar got knocked back down to the level where everyone else is.
Also a massive +1 to Myyona.
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Having come in to what seems the middle of the two major arcs at the moment (this one and the Heth one), my knowledge is a little thin as to what's going on, and I'm okay with that at the moment. That said, I don't quite fully get Minmatar's 'invasion' of Gallente and even more confusing has been the seemingly lack of response from the Federation government.
I know we can't be given a backstage pass to what's going on offstage, but some of the actions/reactions of the NPC community seems very odd at times. Still, it does make things interesting :eek:
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And before people start pointing at the Federation... this was an issue for the Federation up until the aftermath of TEA, with the formation of the Black Eagles and the Eturrer immolation. It's about time that the Minmatar got knocked back down to the level where everyone else is.
I don't think that's true, actually. I remember back in the early days of Fed-vs-State RP, the fact that the Federation responded to a terrorist attack by literally attempting to glass the Caldari homeworld was frequently tossed around. To me it always made the Federation a little more interesting: They're trying to do the right thing, but they've got poor impulse control and anger management issues...
Reading the new expanded Gallente history and demographics articles, I'm really pleased with how CCP is reinforcing this aspect of the Federation, by the way. Federation political history reads like an enormous ship making very slow course corrections based on a long history of big mistakes.
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It's part of the backstory though, Shin, not part of our history-in-progress, which is what tends to change how people approach RPing factions in the short-term.
I've never really seen any "the Fed is horrible evil grimdark buttfaces" stuff aside from maybe the Methods of Torture chronicle coming from before the aftermath of TEA, and it's that stuff that sticks in people's minds.
That's what I meant. Yes, the Fed has some pretty dark shit in its old, old, pre-game history. But I think recent history is more responsible for a lot of the shifts in how we view the political landscape in EVE than the older stuff that is occasionally being tweaked or updated.
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What annoyed me about the ark isn't that the Republic's authorities threw their weight around in the Fed, but that they did so in such a incompetent way. And effectively got fifteen crews killed for nothing, plus the losses they inflicted.
Personally I would have had a dev actor contact a group & have them transport a passenger or passengers to a station in Luminaire, maybe using dev powers to have the passenger speaking in local or with an actor flying with the courier.
Then have Fed Intelligence find out about it ahead of time and try to intercept with their own capsuleer supporters. Think of it as a live version of one of the "intercept the saboteurs" missions. If anyone breaks security ahead of time, well that's the last time they get contacted by the security service concerned.
Maybe even do some decoy or backup runs so people in different timezones could get a look-in?
Flagging could be done by the Federal authorities on intercept. The smugglers would only be able to return fire once fired upon.
This could even be done with no actor participation apart from pickup and delivery, with an actor issuing a courier contract.
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What annoyed me about the ark isn't that the Republic's authorities threw their weight around in the Fed, but that they did so in such a incompetent way.
Welcome in the Amarr shoes back in time. :P
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It's part of the backstory though, Shin, not part of our history-in-progress, which is what tends to change how people approach RPing factions in the short-term.
That's very true. At the same time, you could count the number of significant non-backstory events for the Federation pre-TEA on one hand. After losing some fingers. For a very long time, backstory was really all we had (and I say "we" as a founding member of the Gallente Union, which was literally begging CCP to give us a little Federation meat). When you can't get what you want, you fall back to using what you have.
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What annoyed me about the ark isn't that the Republic's authorities threw their weight around in the Fed, but that they did so in such a incompetent way. And effectively got fifteen crews killed for nothing, plus the losses they inflicted.
That pretty much cuts to the heart of my only concern with this arc. I like having the Republic be overly aggressive loose cannons from time to time, but I dislike it when ANY faction displays such gross incompetence it leaves you wondering how the hell they're supposed to have made it this long as a culture, let alone a government.
The more I think about it, the more I suspect the alliance between the Republic and Federation will remain, in spite of lack of apology or anything else from the Republic on the matter. Hoping I'm wrong, though.
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What annoyed me about the ark isn't that the Republic's authorities threw their weight around in the Fed, but that they did so in such a incompetent way. And effectively got fifteen crews killed for nothing, plus the losses they inflicted.
That pretty much cuts to the heart of my only concern with this arc. I like having the Republic be overly aggressive loose cannons from time to time, but I dislike it when ANY faction displays such gross incompetence it leaves you wondering how the hell they're supposed to have made it this long as a culture, let alone a government.
The more I think about it, the more I suspect the alliance between the Republic and Federation will remain, in spite of lack of apology or anything else from the Republic on the matter. Hoping I'm wrong, though.
I'll be severely disappointed if so. With this kind of buildup, and the Republic spitting in the Federation's face repeatedly (with the Feds providing plenty of rope, to mix metaphors)... to just return to status quo would be an enormous cop out. There must be something more going on here. I guess time will tell, though.
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Hurry up, time!
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Finally, some news:
Republic denies Senate request to join Midular funeral procession
Pator – The Minmatar Tribal Council has turned down a request from the Gallente Senate to allow an official Senatorial delegation to join in the funeral procession of Karin Midular. Midular, known as the Ray of Matar, is scheduled to be removed from the Grand Caravanserai and laid to rest according to Sebiestor customs on the 4th.
The Senate had made the request a week ago via private channels, according to a source. “The request was made in completely good faith. Relations with the Minmatar have obviously been strained during this entire ordeal. The Senate just wanted to remind the Republic that, despite the brief flaring of tempers, we remain friends.”
However, the statement released by the Tribal Council said, “The funeral of Karin Midular will not be turned into political spectacle. We will not prevent anyone from attending the procession, but to afford special status to a group of foreign dignitaries during the final farewell to our Ray of Matar would be disrespectful.”
According to the Senatorial source, “No special accommodations were requested,” but added that the Senate “has no plans to press the issue.”
The Federation seem to be just bending over backward here. Given the recent relaxation of Caldari-Gallente tensions, this seems like the exact WORST time the Republic would want to make the Federation consider breaking the alliance, or at least limiting/halting aid. It might be that CCP wants to paint the Federation in a sympathetic light by having them try to make amends in face of insult after insult until they finally put their foot down, but it really just makes them look weak. If you can't get your own allies to apologize after invading you, and still try to be allies with them after...it doesn't look all that great.
Would also be interesting to see what the opinion of the general populaces are of this mess. Is the Republic fully behind Shakor, or are there elements who think things escalated too far? How are Federal Minmatar faring? Is the general Federation population happy with how their government has been handling the situation?
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It would really, really help. If we could get some sort of indication as to why Republic loyalists are supposed to consider this sort of behaviour reasonable.
At least most of the other groups have some rationale behind their more cranky actions.
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The Federation seem to be just bending over backward here. Given the recent relaxation of Caldari-Gallente tensions, this seems like the exact WORST time the Republic would want to make the Federation consider breaking the alliance, or at least limiting/halting aid. It might be that CCP wants to paint the Federation in a sympathetic light by having them try to make amends in face of insult after insult until they finally put their foot down, but it really just makes them look weak. If you can't get your own allies to apologize after invading you, and still try to be allies with them after...it doesn't look all that great.
I'd love to see more in-depth news articles about this. I could easily see a number of possibilities:
- With a hawkish President in office, perhaps the majority (or a significant minority) in the Senate are doves. If that's the case, there could be all sorts of multipartisan arguments going around in the FedGov. Reactions from the other voting blocs, or from Roden, would be interesting.
- Perhaps this is an attempt to "give the Republic enough rope" on the part of the Senate. Making both the request and the rejection public issues might be a tactic aimed at the fickle voter - especially with a Presidential election coming up.
- Perhaps the FedGov as a whole might earnestly believe that the alliance must be preserved no matter what. Like Galent says, this makes the FedGov look weak, but you do what you feel you have to when the chips are down.
Which of these (if any) would become clear in the follow-up. Nudge-nudge, CCP... ;)
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I don't think this makes the Federation look weak.
It does continue to paint the Republic in a bad light though.
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I don't think this makes the Federation look weak.
It does continue to paint the Republic in a bad light though.
The reason I think it makes the Federation look weak is because it sets the precedent that they don't respect their own sovereignty. It's also completely out of character for them given past reactions to invasions. Caldari invade: fight a capsuleer proxy war with them. Amarrian House invades: invade right the hell back. Republic invades: Oh my gosh I'm so sorry I made you angry here I baked you a cake please don't be mad at me.
If anything, if an ally backstabs you, you need to respond MORE firmly than if an enemy attacks. What the Federation has done has sent the message to the Republic that it can basically do whatever it wants to the Federation and get away with it. I mean, shit, where do you go from invasion? Actually taking and holding Federation territory?
Things the Federation could have done differently:
Met the invading fleet with overwhelming force. Don't just matching their dread count, drop 50 dreads with carrier and supercapital support. The idea isn't to win the fight, but to make fighting an unattractive option in the first place. (I'm making the assumption that the Federation can activate a cynojammer once their fleet jumps in so the Republic can't escalate.) If no shots are fired, great. The situation is defused. If the enemy DO fire shots, the battle is over quickly and with a minimum of casualties on your side. This is important in a society like the Federation; the families of thousands of slain crewman can (and certainly should be) go on a media campaign to raise awareness for the slain and demand that the Republic be brought to heel. Minimize casualties, minimize negative public opinion.
Not given Broteau without an apology. You have something the Republic wants and they JUST put several thousand of your crewmen to the sword. Why the hell are you giving them shit for free?
Made more noise when Broteau was executed. Ok, you wanted to give them rope to hang themselves, and they did. Why are you letting them off the hook?
I'm not a big fan of the whole "warmongering facists" flavor of the Federation, but neither do I find "bunch of wimps who can't stand up for themselves" all that interesting, either.
And yeah, some more info on the Republic's reasoning throughout this process would be nice too. What political reason do they have to be so belligerent, besides the fact that they can apparently get away with it?
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This is important in a society like the Federation; the families of thousands of slain crewman can (and certainly should be) go on a media campaign to raise awareness for the slain and demand that the Republic be brought to heel. Minimize casualties, minimize negative public opinion.
That's a big part of what's been driving Shin's reaction to the whole thing: She lost a very good friend at the battle, and that's affected her pretty heavily. She used to support the Republic pretty heavily - to the extent that she flew with E.M. back before FW happened - and the whole thing seemed so out of character for them. When she first found out about her friend being killed, she tried pretty heavily to engage with Republicans she respected, to no avail. Most of the ones she particularly respected refused to engage, and the ones that did displayed nothing but arrogant disdain. This is why she's now firmly in the "burn the alliance!" camp.
I'm not a big fan of the whole "warmongering facists" flavor of the Federation, but neither do I find "bunch of wimps who can't stand up for themselves" all that interesting, either.
I agree. There aren't a lot of hawkish Fed RPers, so I'm pleased to have Shin rejoin the fold/come out of the closet in that regard.
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She used to support the Republic pretty heavily - to the extent that she flew with E.M. back before FW happened - and the whole thing seemed so out of character for them.
Were you with them during their war with CAIN? Galen hasn't been too surprised by EM's recent actions, having seen them working with pirates and Sansha. As far as he's been able to tell, they've never put too much stock in law or treaties.
I don't know that wanting some kind of consequences for Colelie necessarily puts Shin in the hawk camp by itself. There's plenty room between "BURN THEM ALL THE DIRTY TRAITORS" and, well, how the Federation has been acting. I think an end to the treaty and/or aid reduction is a pretty moderate response considering the preceding events.
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OOCly, I wish this damn arc was over with. It's a pain in the ass and only worth the bits of lore we've been able to glean from the articles. (Like recently, most Minmatar, or at least Sebbies, cremate their dead) It's become an IC clusterfuck, that is really not that big of a deal, but because we haven't had news for a long time, it's blown out of proportion. I feel that couple dozen dreads dying is noteworthy, but not cause for months of drama and debate.
It would really, really help. If we could get some sort of indication as to why Republic loyalists are supposed to consider this sort of behaviour reasonable.
At least most of the other groups have some rationale behind their more cranky actions.
Originally I read this as. "Please Republic Loyalists, present a reason why this is reasonable." Re-reading I think I was originally wrong, but here's my response anyway.
My character has been pretty quiet about this, because it's not exactly a popular outlook in EM or with some characters close to him. Tabor thinks the Republic reaction to the attack in Caille on Midular is perfectly reasonable. Colelie wasn't an invasion, but it did show the Gallente how serious the situation is "to us."
In RPing this I have deliberately tried to divorce my opinions on international political theory, and instead tried to fathom what a "Tribal" mindset would be. My own limited experience is with the Pashtun, who have very specific codes of behavior, especially where vengeance and tribal honor are involved. I embrace the idea that all interaction with outside groups is "us vs. them." and by default, they are badguys. If the badguys do anything against us, the appropriate response is retaliation. Always. Even if it causes our group more harm in the long run, Tribal Honor is preserved.
Tabor thinks the results of the Broteau arc are unfortunate, but he's very proud of all involved in the actual conflict. That applies to both sides of the conflict interestingly enough. The fact that many Gallente have banded together on "their side" and risen up in collective uproar against Colelie makes him consider them more of a "people" than before this incident. In his mind the Gallente are adapting a very "tribal" mindset in their response, and while he may not agree with them, Tabor finds it easier to understand them now. (or so he thinks.)
TL:DR to quote Sepultura:
Who Are You To Criticize
To Judge And Burn The Tribes
The World Will Be Extinct
And Your Flesh Will Rot With Mine
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My character has been pretty quiet about this, because it's not exactly a popular outlook in EM or with some characters close to him. Tabor thinks the Republic reaction to the attack in Caille on Midular is perfectly reasonable. Colelie wasn't an invasion, but it did show the Gallente how serious the situation is "to us."
This is the way I've seen it, too. A lot of people have considered it an incompetent attack much like Kador's, but knowing the way the Matari are I think it's much more reasonable to assume that it was meant deliberately to be a show of force. It's not the first time they've done this. Before they attacked CONCORD, they first appeared in a massive fleet just as a show of force before jumping out. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCVyU4RbFEg&list=PLF614A7A6461E61E1&index=27)
I think that was very much what they were doing here. It's their modus operandi. Actually extracting Broteau was probably not expected nor planned, and getting into an actual battle was probably not expected nor planned. What they were probably hoping for was to converge on some important Federal core world location, show off their might a bit, and then withdraw back to the Republic to let the Federation think about what just happened (again, like the Yulai incident). They probably weren't expecting to be stopped halfway by a Federal dread fleet. In the Yulai incident, CONCORD got caught completely offguard, which was why the demonstration was so potent. Federation on the other hand has a great intelligence network and so had early warning and were thus able to prepare a counterfleet ahead of the Minmatar.
Once the dreads appeared, the Republic fleet needed to come up with a new strategy. Either they could turn around and go home with their tail between their legs, or they could maintain their honor and show how big their balls were by opening fire despite full knowledge that it would be a loss. They did the latter. This is, again, standard for the Matari. From the description of the Yulai Graveyard beacon: "This ship graveyard marks the site of perhaps the boldest—or barbaric—military feat in the recorded history of EVE. It was here where CONCORD, the protectorate of interstellar travel, was attacked preemptively by a Minmatar Elder armada. With the Thukker Tribe fighting at their side, the Minmatars fought with a fury not seen since the Rebellion, even sacrificing their own ships to accomplish their mission."
So yeah, knowing Matari culture, I'd say it was perfectly reasonable and well in-line with their usual actions. The Republic was there to demonstrate loudly and aggressively to the Federation that it would not be ignored. Extracting Broteau wasn't the goal; making a statement was. That's the kind of Republic I really like to see.
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Samira's pretty much got my point, the difference was scale between Colelie and the TEA invasion. Up until the "we need a new strategy" bit, Samira had my view of the plan.
The Republic didn't go to Colelie to win. They went with the express purpose of either getting what they wanted, or giving the Fed a bloody nose. It wasn't bad enough to ruin the treaty, but it was enough to say, "we're independent, we actually need a bit of diplomatic care."
The Federation is more sensitive to military losses than the Republic, this is reflected in all the Drone stuff, and very well RP'd in the current thread. So the Republic said, "a dozen dreads, to us, are worthless compared to our ideals of vengeance." The fed continued to condemn the actions, but didn't escalate, and ultimately handed the republic the killer and tried to go apologize by going to Midular's funeral en masse.
As I see it, the relationship between the two factions are tense, but they are still allies. They just have a better definition of where each other draws moral lines now.
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Tabor, Samira. I can see what you are getting at & think you are mostly correct.
However that still makes the venue confusing. Why that system? Unless they figured jumping dreads into an actual Fed core system might set off a real war?
As to my earlier post. I was wishing that our NPC leaders would be a bit more forthcoming about the thinking behind their actions. It's difficult to figure what a mainstream Minmatar view is when we have so little to go on.
Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.
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I think the Republic fleet expected one of two things. Either they'd slowly slowboat their show of force to the Fed supreme court and they'd get the RSS's criminal. Or.... They'd provoke a small scale fight one the borders and they'd make the seriousness of their complaints known through bloodshed.
Minmatar are the most populous people in the cluster. Loss of crew means less to them. Also their very existence is attributed to acts of collective resistance and defiance. Quite simply: the Fed saying "No Broteau is a Federal case" was nothing more than tailor-made troll bait to make most of the Republic jump for the chance of cheap retribution.
Either way Tabor is proud that some capsuleers were willing to face off against an Ally in the name of tribal honor.
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I hate everything about this arc.
Ok. CCP wants the Minnies to be more "grimdark". Fine. Whatever.
You do so by killing the one person in PF who isnt a total psycho and by making the Minmatar once again look utterly, amazingly inept and incompetent. Sigh. What the hell?
The whole arc is just so, so forced, it... feels very forced? And bad?
I am all for good PF tidbits (like the funeral) or depictions of Tribal vengeance and honor customs, but this is just way, way too much. "Lets whelp a couple hundred thousand lives and tens of billions of isk our brokeass nation doesnt have to prove a statement".
Happy as I am to get a sebiestor centered bit of PF... this was pretty bad.
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I mainly think the bad-ness is mostly related to the sparseness of the arc. It's been going on for a couple of months, and there have only been a handful of "official" actions or responses.
The battle itself felt alright - it was the second time the Republic had brought a military force to rattle a sword at the Federation, and it feels like this time just went south fairly organically. Afterwards, though, there was nothing? Nothing from the Federation? Nothing from the Republic? Not a word from Shakor? Tribal leaders defending the actions in Colelie? Tribal leaders who feel that Shakor is going to far and speak up about it?
The only really disappointing thing about it, in my opinion, is that it has the potential to be so good! A major international incident between two close allies? I fucking salivate over the thought!
In any case, there is a thread discussing it in the Eve-O forums, and at least Falcon is responding there a bit. Not a bad idea to express your concerns there: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=254850&find=unread
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I will. I talked to Falcon about it once, and I think I offended him by saying I didnt like it. I know he puts a lot into these arcs, and I am glad he does it.
This one just didnt go so well, I dont think. Some people like it. I dont.
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Sorry yo hear, because I like this arc a lot. Even though it meant the death of my favorite Eve fictional character.
The discussions are great and a new ways of character alignment/belief have emerged on both Federal and Republic sides. I also see a lot of new faces (alts perhaps, but does not matter to me) getting involved in this.
Sadly, my characters are not much involved themselves due to not having any greater interests at stake. But the few lines I have managed to provide, have been great for their characterization too.
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Tabor thinks the Republic reaction to the attack in Caille on Midular is perfectly reasonable. Colelie wasn't an invasion, but it did show the Gallente how serious the situation is "to us."
I embrace the idea that all interaction with outside groups is "us vs. them." and by default, they are badguys. If the badguys do anything against us, the appropriate response is retaliation. Always. Even if it causes our group more harm in the long run, Tribal Honor is preserved.
In spite of how much i hate this arc, this is quite true.
Too bad 99% of eve players think "Tribal society" means "People smoking peyote and dancing around fires" so it wont change much.
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I have always been mitigated on this arc.
The deal between the Fed and the Republic is nice and really intriguing.
The death of Midular is one of the most disappointing thing I have had to experience lore wise. TEA put aside, maybe.
The lack of ensuing consequences is also disappointing. It is starting to break the suspension of disbelief, since there HAS to be consequences of all of this coming up. I guess they are busy on other things though, which is understandable.
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Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.
Oh, absolutely. That was my point: despite both CAIN and EM representing sovereign states that were not at war, EM launched a grudge attack on a State operation CAIN was involved in because of Hnolku. That's why Galen wasn't taken aback by the Republic attacking the Federation due to a grudge, though the scale of the attack may have.
Come to think of it...I may be confused since I was away from the game for some time, but isn't CCP Falcon Verone? Given that VETO also joined in that war, that whole thing may have provided inspiration for this arc on some level. Namely, that the Minmatar emphasize loyalty based on honor and grudges, as opposed to law and treaties.
Lyn, we've been promised in the Live Events forum that the pace will slow down, but the arc is still ongoing. It makes me sad too, this had a perfect whole "tense political situation" vibe that's damped by a slower pace. I'm trying to pretend this is all happening much faster than it really is, but...yeah, I want more :(
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That's not that it makes me sad really. I am not a big fan of live events - in the sense participating - even if I love them for what they bring up and create in terms of RP matter.
I just hope we will hear of the consequences pretty fast. I can understand to see a slower pace, definitely, but cutting the pace right before the conclusions seems... weird. Taking a break between two, sure, but right before the epilogue... ?
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Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.
Oh, absolutely. That was my point: despite both CAIN and EM representing sovereign states that were not at war, EM launched a grudge attack on a State operation CAIN was involved in because of Hnolku. That's why Galen wasn't taken aback by the Republic attacking the Federation due to a grudge, though the scale of the attack may have.
Come to think of it...I may be confused since I was away from the game for some time, but isn't CCP Falcon Verone? Given that VETO also joined in that war, that whole thing may have provided inspiration for this arc on some level. Namely, that the Minmatar emphasize loyalty based on honor and grudges, as opposed to law and treaties.
Lyn, we've been promised in the Live Events forum that the pace will slow down, but the arc is still ongoing. It makes me sad too, this had a perfect whole "tense political situation" vibe that's damped by a slower pace. I'm trying to pretend this is all happening much faster than it really is, but...yeah, I want more :(
Grudge attack? Granted my memory of things might be a tad hazy but what I recall is CAIN slapping us with a wardec having moved assets to the Republic to prosecute it with. I think the Rabbits noticed that happening unless I am mistaken.
Was that in response to a previous action then? It may well have been but you where on our red list and, therefore, legitimate targets. Regardless of any formal tensions between the polities we both have interests in.
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Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.
Oh, absolutely. That was my point: despite both CAIN and EM representing sovereign states that were not at war, EM launched a grudge attack on a State operation CAIN was involved in because of Hnolku. That's why Galen wasn't taken aback by the Republic attacking the Federation due to a grudge, though the scale of the attack may have.
Come to think of it...I may be confused since I was away from the game for some time, but isn't CCP Falcon Verone? Given that VETO also joined in that war, that whole thing may have provided inspiration for this arc on some level. Namely, that the Minmatar emphasize loyalty based on honor and grudges, as opposed to law and treaties.
Lyn, we've been promised in the Live Events forum that the pace will slow down, but the arc is still ongoing. It makes me sad too, this had a perfect whole "tense political situation" vibe that's damped by a slower pace. I'm trying to pretend this is all happening much faster than it really is, but...yeah, I want more :(
Grudge attack? Granted my memory of things might be a tad hazy but what I recall is CAIN slapping us with a wardec having moved assets to the Republic to prosecute it with. I think the Rabbits noticed that happening unless I am mistaken.
Was that in response to a previous action then? It may well have been but you where on our red list and, therefore, legitimate targets. Regardless of any formal tensions between the polities we both have interests in.
EM blew up a lolecmburst fit blackbird (long story) while CAIN was assisting a Caldari Navy operation (live event, the end of the BoF arc, as memory serves). CAIN basically said "compensate us for that ship, or it's war." EM refused (to CAIN's delight), wardec went down, pirates decced, and that's how the war began. So yeah, previous action.
I'm not sure what EM's red list has to do with anything. I'm not saying it was a surprise attack, if that's what you think I mean. If EM had attacked a random CAIN patrol in lowsec, I'd agree that would be more grey area since they could claim to not mean any offense to the Caldari State. Harder to claim that when you're trying to foil a CN operation, though.
I also see the current attitude mirrored in EM's approach to handling the pirates. EM could have told CAIN "Look, you've brought vermin into our home. We'll have this war, but first you help us clean up the dirt you tracked in." Or, could have worked a ceasefire while both entities fought the pirates separately. Or, just gone kamikaze and fought everyone. They route they took instead was to work with the pirates against CAIN because CAIN was the one they had the biggest problem with. I'm not saying this is bad, just that it shows that "law and order" was not as high a priority as "honor and revenge."
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CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so. The other was a retaliatory war after they helped the Brothers of Freedom escape (along with Star Fraction). When we moved into the Republic to pursue the fighting, they joined up with the Black Rabbits and Veto, among others. I think that's the story Evanda wrote up for the True Stories of Eve.
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CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so. The other was a retaliatory war after they helped the Brothers of Freedom escape (along with Star Fraction). When we moved into the Republic to pursue the fighting, they joined up with the Black Rabbits and Veto, among others. I think that's the story Evanda wrote up for the True Stories of Eve.
Ah yes. I remember now. And I'd tend to agree with you Galen. EM is a nationalist outfit. What is perceived to be good for the Republic is what is important. Most of the time that does, in fact, mean killing pirates. But only when they make a nuisance of themselves inside Minmatar space. This is a distinction I wish more of them would pick up on but a lot of what passes for pirate these days doesn't really have the grey matter to get past the purely tactical.
And, as you will recall from Eva's account. We weren't working with them. We where trying to contain them & direct them while we got on with killing you.
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And, as you will recall from Eva's account. We weren't working with them. We where trying to contain them & direct them while we got on with killing you.
Mmmmhrm. If you say so...
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And, as you will recall from Eva's account. We weren't working with them. We where trying to contain them & direct them while we got on with killing you.
Mmmmhrm. If you say so...
I do. It's a shame I know. If us core nation types could work past our differences we could do so many things. For one brief moment I thought it might happen when Incursions started. Pity. It would've been an interesting complication.
But even back then the State was the enemy. The number of Caldari hulls you had to blow up in missions told you that much.
The Yulai Guard were puzzled when we set them red for actively assisting CVA. "But pirates are real bad people and slaves are just imaginary." I think you can imagine how well that logic was received.
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CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so.
If I remember right, the Amarr corp was PIE. Granted, my memory's fuzzy, since Vieve was put under house arrest (in a sense)1 not too long after that war started, so all I got to do is harass Kaazzi in Rens for a few nights.
1Yeah, for some crazy thing about putting the alliance with EM at risk and maybe being a sleeper Caldari agent. Madness, I tell you.
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CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so. The other was a retaliatory war after they helped the Brothers of Freedom escape (along with Star Fraction). When we moved into the Republic to pursue the fighting, they joined up with the Black Rabbits and Veto, among others. I think that's the story Evanda wrote up for the True Stories of Eve.
Did they get away? I remember that storyline ending with the death of the BoF leader in a way that kind of annoyed everyone involved due to some miscommunication between the EM/SF side and the AURORA actor.
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Did they get away? I remember that storyline ending with the death of the BoF leader in a way that kind of annoyed everyone involved due to some miscommunication between the EM/SF side and the AURORA actor.
Pretty sure.
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It's a shame I know. If us core nation types could work past our differences we could do so many things. For one brief moment I thought it might happen when Incursions started. Pity. It would've been an interesting complication.
It's become apparent to me that many roleplayers don't want that. Maybe even most don't want that.
People want EVE to be a fighting game, not a diplomacy game.
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I would disagree with that assessment, at least for EVE as a whole. 0.0 politics pretty much revolve entirely around diplomacy and your ability to pull enough blues around you that the other mass of blues can't just steamroll you into the pavement.
For RPers though...I don't see a practical way for players to enact diplomacy on their empires behalf, particularly not if CCP doesn't want to worry about showing favoritism. It pretty much has to be determined by CCP at any given point: If your faction says you are at war, you go to war. If they say you're at peace, you're buddies with the other faction. There's room for nuance, but at the end of the day the diplomacy game has to revolve around "How do we interpet our faction's current policies?", because players will never be the ones setting those policies.
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0.0 politics also revolve around fighting
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I was speaking more on the topic of moderates of a faction versus ultraloyalists.
U-Loyalists: "Hugglefest is bad, conflict is best, etc."
Moderates: "Drama is bad, diplomacy is best, etc."
Though on second thought, the pendulum seems to swing back and forth on which group is more popular at a given time. Mostly depends on if CCP is featuring a diplomatic storyline or a war storyline. During the negotiations for peaceful administration of Caldari Prime, Ishukone loyalists and Gallente "Doves" saw a surge of player popularity. During the Colelie attack, both Gallente "Hawks" and Minmatar sabre-rattlers saw an increase in popularity.
It could be said that maybe it's not a popularity increase, but rather certain stories bring their relevant faction and sub-faction loyalists out of the woodwork and into the public spotlight.
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I would disagree with that assessment, at least for EVE as a whole. 0.0 politics pretty much revolve entirely around diplomacy and your ability to pull enough blues around you that the other mass of blues can't just steamroll you into the pavement.
For RPers though...I don't see a practical way for players to enact diplomacy on their empires behalf, particularly not if CCP doesn't want to worry about showing favoritism. It pretty much has to be determined by CCP at any given point: If your faction says you are at war, you go to war. If they say you're at peace, you're buddies with the other faction. There's room for nuance, but at the end of the day the diplomacy game has to revolve around "How do we interpet our faction's current policies?", because players will never be the ones setting those policies.
I always thought the diplomacy game in RP was played out by having individual or organizational agendas and then seeking to pursue them.
I don't feel the need for CCP to hold my hand in constructing my own agendas for my characters and the organizations they are part of and then letting them play out and which remain consistent with the fiction. To me the fiction exists to create the framework for specific worldviews/ideologies/causes and the RP is the action and reaction among other groups in the game caused by them -- even if they don't consider themselves, "Roleplayers".
To me, all of Eve is RP because it's never been so much about the fictional interpersonal feels one can get but the interplay of differing causes and goals. A bunch of guys shooting it up in nullsec for power, territory, resources or just killmails is just as much roleplaying as capsuleers who are "Loyalists" because they're consistently behaving as a bunch of independent capsuleers who have their own goals.
So if people find fault in being unable to dictate what they think a chosen faction should or should not do then that's their own problem to me. For myself, I know the fictional agendas and worldviews of my own characters and their organizations so I'm more than able to react accordingly and consistently to them when something happens in the game.
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This arc gave me some reason to make Anslo even more crazy and unstable so...I can't complain there. However, I get where others are coming from. This shouldn't just end at the fleet fight, something else has to happen in game aside from the fluff press releases.
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Annoyingly this arc has shifted Caellach away from CONCORD neutral to pro Federal, mainly because of the way they've conducted themselves in his eyes, and underlying irks towards the Republic that have festered for some time and now rise up to the surface.
The lack of Blaque or Roden utterly fucking this one up has made it hard for him to not defend his point of origin.
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Lyn is starting to seriously lose faith in CONCORD with these series of arcs recently, first, the attack on Yulai, no retaliation on the Elders, then the battle of CP, and now that... They almost look like spineless ammatars.
I'm starting to wonder if i'm weirdly drawn to spineless, vegetable, factions.
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I'll be honest the lack of spine in CONCORD as of late has really irked both Cael ICly and myself OOCly.
Declaring general "state of emergency" (Aka: Fuck it, you're on your own *throws shit in the air and walks off) or being late to the party and merely there to mop up the wreckage has made them look utterly incompetent.
I want to see CONCORD wade into the middle of one of these encounters and either give the almighty smackdown to whichever faction steps out of line, or (more fun) drop a fleet of battleships in and actively engage in a fight.
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I too wish to see CONCORD smack a bitch.
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On top of what has been mentioned, one thing that really bugs me is when you have acknowledged enemies of CONCORD in local openly broadcasting how they are using the events to further their goals, at times even mocking CONCORD actors for not interfering... and who then face zero interference. Not a suspect flag, not a sec status drop, nothing.
tl;dr in my eyes from the last several posts: Whether it is the Republic or CONCORD, failing to respond to events in a meaningful manner makes them appear really, really stupid. This not productive to RP. This should stop.
If only it were that easy.
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CONCORD ships die just as well as those of any other faction, it's their jove-teleport mcguffin cyno hotdrop that allows them to police effectively.
IE just because they show up at an event doesn't mean they might not get blasted to constituent atoms.
...in other words I too would love them to actually show up but be wtfbbqd for not showing up fast enough or in high enough numbers to an escalating event.
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I don't really care if they lose or die, at least they do something.
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Hey, I'd love to see it come out that CONCORD is the shadowy hand behind the recent conflicts between the Federation and the Republic.
Think about it.
Step 1) Alienate the Republic from its most powerful ally
Step 2) Stomp on any budding relationship between the Republic and the State (arrange for "Matari terrorists" to take over a Caldari station in the Republic, anyone?)
Step 3) Fan the flames of conflict until open war begins to break out between the Republic, the Federation and the State --- and the situation's so bad that the Amarr are counseling mercy for the people of the Republic, because any situation where the Feds and the State put aside their own differences to team up against a common enemy is a pretty damn bad one.
Step 4) Step in. Effectively take over the Republic as part of a peacekeeping/rebuilding exercise. For extra bonus points, be the only entity that the people of the Republic will trust to do so.
Step 5) Piss on the Elders' graves.
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The pissing is best done after the tap-dancing, for obvious reasons.
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This is my perception of the whole situation as it currently stands:
I honestly think that Roden has been complicit in terms of the attack on Colelie. I wouldn't be surprised if, as the 'Matari unrest' continues and acts of terrorism increase, Roden will attempt to enact an emergency act that keeps him in power either by suppressing who is allowed to vote in the upcoming election or effectively placing the election on hold till the 'problem' is dealt with. Given that Blaque and his Eagles will need support from high up to continue to exist as a 'Home Security Directive' I wouldn't be surprised if he's not giving Roden aid in staying in power...a more moderate President would likely look at the Black Eagles with a much more keen eye and I don't think the organization or Blaque could survive an audit of their activities.
As a side note, despite the couple of events that have painted the Republic as being reckless and incompetent, I still get the feeling that for some reason the Federation is New Eden's red-headed step-child. Everyone takes shots at the Federation, specifically the Gallente. This leads me to speculate that the Federation is likely to cease to exist as a democratic and nominally tolerant nation. Why? I just have the feeling that with the way current events are shaping up, the following could quite likely happen:
- Roden wins the next election (or the election doesn't happen, see above as to why)
- The Republic, faced with the 'cries of help from the oppressed Matari within Federation space' launch a serious and competent attack on the Federation to liberate these oppressed people
- Depending on what happens with Caldari/Federation relations, I could easily see the Caldari taking such an attack as the opportunity to solidify and further take control of Caldari Prime itself
- The Amarr...this really depends on a couple of things really...either they will take the opportunity to launch a Reclaiming against the Republic or ignore the Republic and seek to punish the Federation given how heathen and decadent the Gallente are
I realize that conflict is important to story and game...however, the fact that it appears that anyone and everyone has free reign to piss on the Federation without fear of retaliation is bothersome to me. Yes, we were able to defend ourselves at Colelie, but the fact that it happened in the first place and that absolutely nothing has come up high in response to the invasion kind of breaks the reality of the setting, in my opinion. Even if there were backroom deals done, it isn't realistic that the Senate hasn't said a word in two-three months. I realize there may have been OOC reasons for the lack of response, but from an IC perspective, it shows the Federation has no spine and we'll just allow anyone to come into our yard and bully us around.
All of these things have actually been nagging me for some time now and making me second guess not only the ideas I have for Steffanie, the Order, but also make me wonder if I would have been better off playing a Caldari...cause apparently they seem to be the chosen ones at the moment (yes, I realize that you guys got the shaft with the whole Heth thing, but just coming in as a recent player, it does seem that the Caldari can do no wrong, the Amarr are tolerated, the Minmatar are...well, there are mixed signals I get with the Minnie, while Federation is the runt of the litter and therefore deserving of all the bad stuff). I have had fun playing Steffanie, and will continue to do so; it just gets very tiresome. Conflict can lead to great development and stuff, but at the moment it just feels a bit too much and given my personality, I'm more likely to just want to go hide somewhere and pretend I'm not playing a Gallente character.
Again, I'm not trying to belittle the hardships other groups have gone through...I understand that Amarr have had issues due to both 'religious zealots' and 'here come the slavers' and lately the Minmatar have been thrown under the bus due to the apparent lack of competence shown by their leaders. I'm just expressing my feelings at what I'm seeing and experiencing as player who started 3 months ago.
With all that said, I would like to see CONCORD grow a set of balls and actually take to task those who have abused the treaty (or just outright ignored it). As it stands, CONCORD seems to be more like the League of Nations...a lot of bark but no bite.
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[...]make me wonder if I would have been better off playing a Caldari...cause apparently they seem to be the chosen ones at the moment (yes, I realize that you guys got the shaft with the whole Heth thing, but just coming in as a recent player, it does seem that the Caldari can do no wrong, the Amarr are tolerated, the Minmatar are...well, there are mixed signals I get with the Minnie, while Federation is the runt of the litter and therefore deserving of all the bad stuff). I have had fun playing Steffanie, and will continue to do so; it just gets very tiresome. Conflict can lead to great development and stuff, but at the moment it just feels a bit too much and given my personality, I'm more likely to just want to go hide somewhere and pretend I'm not playing a Gallente character.
Again, I'm not trying to belittle the hardships other groups have gone through...I understand that Amarr have had issues due to both 'religious zealots' and 'here come the slavers' and lately the Minmatar have been thrown under the bus due to the apparent lack of competence shown by their leaders. I'm just expressing my feelings at what I'm seeing and experiencing as player who started 3 months ago.[...]
The grass is always greener on the other pastures.
Sure, it all depends on what you prefer, but having been in EVE for quite some time, that's what I concluded given that everyone is basically constantly complaining how bad off their chosen faction is, story-wise.
Also, EVE seems to be founded on the idea that conflict and only conflict keeps a story/thing interesting/worthwhile. To me this seems to be a neo-capitalist/social darwinist-ic brainfart, for lack of a better word.
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Fed does seem really reactive at this point. No intrigue whatsoever. Mentas Blaque is apparently some racist in charge of a black ops, Roden is...well nobody knows who Roden is...there are no sympathetic characters in the Fed atm to relate to. It's just Blaque and Roden, and they pretty much seem interchangeable as far as the story goes.
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Roden was interesting in that it is a scoundrel baron never hesitating to use dirty methods to further his agendas. That guy would sell his own mother for a little benefit. He has potential, just that his potential remains unexploited currently.
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The Federation has always suffered from the fact that it has been a homogeneous mush for the longest time. There's some offhand remarks about various political factions within the Federation but we really haven't seen any sort of internal differentiation within the Federation, and even gross abuses like Eturrer's execution and the formation of the Black Eagles gets almost nothing in the way of protest by political factions within the Federation. It's extremely frustrating, because anyone who actually lives in a democracy knows that there are plenty of deep political and social differences between various groups.
The other factions don't suffer from this as much because they have some "natural" divisions that are more easily personified/generalized. The Caldari have their political factions and to a lesser extent their corporations, the Amarr have their Royal Houses, and the Minmatar have their tribes. The Gallente don't really have this, especially because their political parties are hardly defined at all. Can anyone tell me what a Progressive or a Social Democrat in the Federation believes? Their platforms are barely sketched out at all. What are Roden's policies like, aside from not nationalizing defense contractors?
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The Federation has always suffered from the fact that it has been a homogeneous mush for the longest time. There's some offhand remarks about various political factions within the Federation but we really haven't seen any sort of internal differentiation within the Federation, and even gross abuses like Eturrer's execution and the formation of the Black Eagles gets almost nothing in the way of protest by political factions within the Federation. It's extremely frustrating, because anyone who actually lives in a democracy knows that there are plenty of deep political and social differences between various groups.
One could get the impression that The Scope's near monopoly on Federation news might not be such a good thing. After all, it's much easier for special interests to manipulate the flow of information if they only have to deal with one big fat spigot.
Heck, it might not even be that overtly sinister. Perhaps the audience sentiment forecast suggested that protests over Eturrer wouldn't play well in most major markets, so they simply weren't covered. Since they didn't attract media attention, they didn't go viral, and they eventually fizzled out, except for a few diehards who may have eventually been disappeared like the Professor in Taught Thoughts (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Taught_Thoughts_(Chronicle)).
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Like Svet, I would really like to hear more about the different views of the various political parties of the Fed, and the Senate. It would really help to flesh the Fed out like they did in the last elections. It would also give Blaque and Roden more depth at the same time.
And again, I would really, really like them to make news reports from the IC perspective of all the various news outlets (The Scope, ACN, Eifyr, etc). Not necessarily a version of each outlet for every bit of news ofc, but it would really help to flesh out the various opinions and views of the cluster instead of always getting the "tabletop game master" OOC explanation...
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The whole Broteau arc has really pissed me off.
Firstly, it just doesn't make any sense. Why would the Republic attack its oldest and most reliable partner over an extradition? While I understand the significance of one of the victims, it just seems too contrived and forced just for the sake of driving some storyline. It would be realistic for the Republic to make strongly worded official statements to the press or, make some symbolic gesture like cancelling a joint military exercise, sure. But to have the Republic act in the manner in which CCP did simply strains all credulity. It would be akin to the Israelis launching an attack on the U.S. for not handing over some terrorist. Just ain't gonna happen.
Secondly, the lack of any kind of meaningful follow up makes no sense either. There's been no response from the Shakor government as to who authorized the attacks or why, no outcry from the Minmatar people demanding answers, no accountability for the bungled tactics on the part of the Fleet and, most importantly, no response from the Federation! The dead silence is crazy.
While there have been a few nice opportunities for Ana (as a Matari who was adopted by a Gallentean couple and raised in the Federation) to be internally conflicted and "angsty", for the most part it's only resulted in her withdrawing from most interactions outside her circle of friends for fear of getting smacked over the head with Colelie and her having to defend the undefendable. It's not much fun being on the defensive constantly.
All in all I give a big "thanks" to CCP for a dumb idea and for throwing Minmatar RPers under the bus. :psyccp:
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True. The silence is what kills it.
I was willing to put aside the incredulity of it all by assuming this was leading up to some big announcement that FW was going to split the alliances, and expected an Imperial/State skirmish soon. I expected the Colelie was going to be the first of several mindbogglingly horrific shakeups to the status quo where fleets are deployed and politics become all out warfare. I expected an apocalyptic breakdown of international relations, on par with the series of events that lead up to the outbreak of the Empyrean war - except not written by TonyG and not in a book.
Instead, we got something that hasn't been followed up on, and didn't seem to have any relevance toward furthering the storyline, unlike the Heth arc which clearly changed the status quo.
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That's consistently been the problem with CCP's storylines -- the followthrough has been lacking.
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The whole Broteau arc has really pissed me off.
Firstly, it just doesn't make any sense. Why would the Republic attack its oldest and most reliable partner over an extradition? While I understand the significance of one of the victims, it just seems too contrived and forced just for the sake of driving some storyline. It would be realistic for the Republic to make strongly worded official statements to the press or, make some symbolic gesture like cancelling a joint military exercise, sure. But to have the Republic act in the manner in which CCP did simply strains all credulity. It would be akin to the Israelis launching an attack on the U.S. for not handing over some terrorist. Just ain't gonna happen.
Secondly, the lack of any kind of meaningful follow up makes no sense either. There's been no response from the Shakor government as to who authorized the attacks or why, no outcry from the Minmatar people demanding answers, no accountability for the bungled tactics on the part of the Fleet and, most importantly, no response from the Federation! The dead silence is crazy.
While there have been a few nice opportunities for Ana (as a Matari who was adopted by a Gallentean couple and raised in the Federation) to be internally conflicted and "angsty", for the most part it's only resulted in her withdrawing from most interactions outside her circle of friends for fear of getting smacked over the head with Colelie and her having to defend the undefendable. It's not much fun being on the defensive constantly.
All in all I give a big "thanks" to CCP for a dumb idea and for throwing Minmatar RPers under the bus. :psyccp:
Yes. As much as I was happy for once to see the Minmatar "getting it", I never really took part in that since everything looked so demented to me. I still have a difficult time to find how I should handle that, it seems even more crazy than what you see happening in nullsec space. New Eden leaders since TEA seem to be completely nuts at times.
That's quite like that Kador attack on Solitude. What the hell was he thinking ? They let retards at the head of every major House or something ?
I was willing to put aside the incredulity of it all by assuming this was leading up to some big announcement that FW was going to split the alliances, and expected an Imperial/State skirmish soon. I expected the Colelie was going to be the first of several mindbogglingly horrific shakeups to the status quo where fleets are deployed and politics become all out warfare. I expected an apocalyptic breakdown of international relations, on par with the series of events that lead up to the outbreak of the Empyrean war - except not written by TonyG and not in a book.
Please, no, no more all out warfare... That proxy war already almost killed intra factional conflict... Make it an all out war and it will just become a bland "Minmatar vs Amarr vs Gallente vs Caldari"... How boring. :ugh:
Falcon said on OOC though that they had something we are going to enjoy planned for soon.
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I don't want all out conflict, mind you. But that's the scenario I thought CCP was building up to.
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I think someone else may have brought this up before, but in the short time I've been here, the storyline stuff I have seen hasn't really made any sense to me. Then there is the fact that CCP doesn't seem to end a story...I had been hoping that the Heth thing would have been wrapped up, but they let Heth get away...
Reminds me of a couple tabletop games I've played where the GM went out of their way to insure the result they wanted happened; the gaming group nearly imploded after a five hour session of a huge battle where at the end of it, nothing we did really mattered. The GM wanted our side to lose. To which we pointed out, if that was what you wanted, then you could have spared us the 5 hours of trying to win and just done a 'cut-scene' where we lose. We could have then used the rest of that time to go recover and figure out how to recover and strike back.
If Heth was going to get away anyway, I think it would have simply been a better approach of writing it up and posting a news release instead of making a live event out of it. That's just me. I'm sure people had some fun with the battle around the station, but I just find what happened to be a deus ex machina and as viewer from the sidelines, left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Conflict can spice up a story, but it shouldn't be the sole driving force behind a story. Also, conflict doesn't have to be brutal, hate-filled, stuff that seems to be the norm in the EVE universe. I get that it is a grimdark, but I don't buy into the dark and edgy 24/7; look at movies like The Crow, Bladerunner, Serenity (and the show Firefly)...even the new Battlestar Galactica series (which I had problems watching for various reasons). These were all dark, yet they had many touching moments and light moments. Grimdark can only go so far and then it gets cliche and blase. There needs to be a time for peace and rest else everything the characters fight for or strive for has no meaning. There needs to be moments of contrast. But that's just the writer/poet/romantic in me railing against the 'gotta be grim'.
I do hope something comes soon, but it has been too long in my opinion for anything meaningful to happen regarding Colelie.
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Yep, I've been saying pretty much the same thing for ages. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much the people guiding the storyline agree -- Hjalti's stories especially seem almost unrelentingly dark.
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I do hereby declare Steffaine's post awesome.
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Ja. Depressing as usual.
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its probably the only thing that i find disheartening......a story arc can directly spawn sub-plots and summit posts, giving tons of opportunity for RPing, but the whole thing can go sour when the storyarc just vanish and it does not provide closure....
I guess eventually we will see an improvement....but expectactions are high always.
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I'm okay without closure; history is a constant flow of events. The problem is that the storyline right now is not a constant flow of anything, it's a flurry of articles over the course of a few months followed by weeks of nothing and then maybe an article or two here and there, and then another flood, and so on. This is not the way you write a good story. Pacing is an important part of writing.
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Maybe they are so eager to share that they release everything in the first weeks and then go "oops, nothing left".
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Maybe they are so eager to share that they release everything in the first weeks and then go "oops, nothing left".
I suspect that is part of it. The disappointing thing is that Eve is almost tailor-made for a long-term narrative arc -- it isn't going anywhere and its subscribers tend to be long-term, not the subscribe-for-two-months/play-content/unsubscribe-for-a-year type. Why not design your narrative arcs that way? If marketing wants hype around releases/media events, that's easy enough to plan for too -- releases don't tend to vary by more than a few weeks in either direction, and it's not like the dates of PAX or Fanfest are fuzzy.
So frustrating to watch. On the other hand, part of it is still that storyline is really just Abraxas and Gnauton, and everyone else is just doing it in their spare time. Not sure that's particularly good for a strong narrative either, especially if you want to include live events and other stuff in there. If something comes up in Falcon/Eterne/Affinity/Goliath's "real job", they are not going to be able to move forward on the storyline stuff.
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Svetlana, think the problem is that because EVE is a player-driven, and not story-driven, game? It's not like a 'theme park' MMO where it is the lore that drives the story. It is the stories of 3000-player fleet battles that sells EVE, not the lore. The lore merely sets out a framework for everything else to occur within.
I think it's because the player stories generate so much interest in EVE, that CCP as a result don't invest that much staff into lore or story. I am adamant that CCP should seriously consider hiring a political/historical specialist. A writer with ten years worth of writing sci-fi or political intrigue, something like that. CCP Falcon, for example, was a civil engineer for most of his working life IIRC. CCP Abraxas has a background in IT. This doesn't undermine their quality as writers (anyone can be a good writer), but I do think it handicaps their knowledge in specific areas.
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Svetlana, think the problem is that because EVE is a player-driven, and not story-driven, game? It's not like a 'theme park' MMO where it is the lore that drives the story. It is the stories of 3000-player fleet battles that sells EVE, not the lore. The lore merely sets out a framework for everything else to occur within.
I think it's because the player stories generate so much interest in EVE, that CCP as a result don't invest that much staff into lore or story. I am adamant that CCP should seriously consider hiring a political/historical specialist. A writer with ten years worth of writing sci-fi or political intrigue, something like that. CCP Falcon, for example, was a civil engineer for most of his working life IIRC. CCP Abraxas has a background in IT. This doesn't undermine their quality as writers (anyone can be a good writer), but I do think it handicaps their knowledge in specific areas.
Yes, I am pretty sure that is exactly the problem -- I'm pretty sure I've said that many times. CCP doesn't want to spend any money/time/resources on the storyline aside from the bare minimum. Unfortunately, this means that people working on the storyline should not be surprised when people are unhappy with the way it is being developed.
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I hadn't thought about it in this way before but, I think you guys are onto something with the CCP wants to promote the 3000 ship null sec fleet battles as epic notion. Hell, during Fanfest one of the devs (I think it was Fozzie) straight out said as much. It's pretty apparent to me after over 5 years in Eve that anything beyond the null "end game" and appeasing the anti-Incarna pitchfork mob (including developing anything truly innovative for fear of rejection) is an afterthought or, completely off the table. Sad as it is for those of us who care about the lore and background of Eve I think CCP execs see that aspect of the game as low priority fluff to be dealt with in people's spare time.
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I hadn't thought about it in this way before but, I think you guys are onto something with the CCP wants to promote the 3000 ship null sec fleet battles as epic notion. Hell, during Fanfest one of the devs (I think it was Fozzie) straight out said as much. It's pretty apparent to me after over 5 years in Eve that anything beyond the null "end game" and appeasing the anti-Incarna pitchfork mob (including developing anything truly innovative for fear of rejection) is an afterthought or, completely off the table. Sad as it is for those of us who care about the lore and background of Eve I think CCP execs see that aspect of the game as low priority fluff to be dealt with in people's spare time.
During the 2013 FF Keynote, Hilmar's genuine shock at the applause for the suggestion that avatar related content is something that they may consider doing for exploration, a concept shown in 2012 at a Russian EVE meet, said it all.
The very fact that the boss of CCP was surprised that people had decoupled 'bad incarna' (greed is good, microtrans, etc) from good incarna (everything that went into a devblog and that didn;t ever appear in the final release), is indicative of CCP top level staff drinking the same kool aid as the GD forum crowd. This is a dangerous state of affairs, and one that needs to be remedied as EVE grows and the forums become ever more toxic as a result.
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I hadn't thought about it in this way before but, I think you guys are onto something with the CCP wants to promote the 3000 ship null sec fleet battles as epic notion. Hell, during Fanfest one of the devs (I think it was Fozzie) straight out said as much. It's pretty apparent to me after over 5 years in Eve that anything beyond the null "end game" and appeasing the anti-Incarna pitchfork mob (including developing anything truly innovative for fear of rejection) is an afterthought or, completely off the table. Sad as it is for those of us who care about the lore and background of Eve I think CCP execs see that aspect of the game as low priority fluff to be dealt with in people's spare time.
To me it's pretty much perfectly normal. They have a selling line and they keep to it to full strength. It's the same for my own bosses with their little, unique selling line that they keep repeating again and again ad-nauseam (for us it's always "It's not Starcraft, your actual skills are not related to your clicking ratio", for CCP it's always "THE SANDBOX and how people can do what they want and claim their own territory and fight in epic battles of 5000+ players").
It's what sells and it reassures people - especially their niche - that they still hold their core values as a top priority. It's pretty much marketing and selling your game.
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I do hope something comes soon, but it has been too long in my opinion for anything meaningful to happen regarding Colelie.
Especially for those of us who's characters have been immediately, and likely, permanently, recast as villains over it, the lack of ANYTHING since the arc - a press release, a statement of apology, a Federal demand for answers - really makes it so, so much worse. The fact they turned Broteau over anyway afterwards? This arc just feels like its sole purpose was to just ruin the Minmatar as a remotely believable group of people and society.
Your post summed up everything I feel here, better than I can. We cant have grimdark all the time, it just becomes pointless. Thank you, Stef.
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I do hereby declare Steffaine's post awesome.
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While looking for something else, I found out that the security detail assigned to Karin Midular, was staffed by elements from the Elder Fleet.
Make of that what you will.
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elements from the Elder Fleet.
(http://img.youtube.com/vi/llm3CF88vqo/0.jpg)
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While looking for something else, I found out that the security detail assigned to Karin Midular, was staffed by elements from the Elder Fleet.
Make of that what you will.
Really?
Where was that info?
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“We realize they’re in a crisis, but that does not give them the right to step on international law any way they see fit,” stated Republic Parliament Head Malaetu Shakor this morning.
an old quote that is funny nowadays.