Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 05 Feb 2013, 09:48
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http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?of=true&newsTitle=anti-provist-rally-sparks-civil-unrest-on-malkalen-v
Seems to note that the Caldari, at least Ishukone, have the concept of not only 'freedom speech' but 'civil rights' too (as opposed to legal rights). Caldari Mary Sues - Ishukone! Play Caldari badasses without all the nasty fascist bits!
Just noting some of the OOC reactions to this article, and wondering. Just curious, but why is this seen as an automatically GOOD thing that there's free speech in the State?
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I believe the comments in OOC at least from Falcon implied that the concept of free speech or civil rights was a direct function of Megacorporate law and that how it is in fact defined varies between them. (Might be wrong).
The real issue, at least for Caldari in that article, is not the fact Ishukone corporate law has "Free Speech" but rather that the CPD had directly violated the law of a CEP member and what is more or less a "Sovereign Entity" within the State itself, at least.
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If it wasn't there before, this might be an attempt at the actual creation of a right to free speech by those silly Liberals. Exciting times!
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I believe the comments in OOC at least from Falcon implied that the concept of free speech or civil rights was a direct function of Megacorporate law and that how it is in fact defined varies between them. (Might be wrong).
The real issue, at least for Caldari in that article, is not the fact Ishukone corporate law has "Free Speech" but rather that the CPD had directly violated the law of a CEP member and what is more or less a "Sovereign Entity" within the State itself, at least.
+1
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Or IW is hiring Gallente High School dropouts for the public relations division.
The statement frustrates the hell out of me.
If an Ishukone employee made a statement like "Ishukone is dumping toxic chemicals on ...," his statement would be interrupted at that point as the IW hauls his ass off.
The real issue, at least for Caldari in that article, is not the fact Ishukone corporate law has "Free Speech" but rather that the CPD had directly violated the law of a CEP member and what is more or less a "Sovereign Entity" within the State itself, at least.
+100 : What happens in Ishukone's territory is Ishukone's responsibility. *megacorporation may vary
I believe the comments in OOC at least from Falcon implied that the concept of free speech or civil rights was a direct function of Megacorporate law and that how it is in fact defined varies between them. (Might be wrong).
Then it isn't a concept of "free speech." It is a concept of "protected speech" and there is a nuanced, but important difference.
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I Believe the State 'has' free speech, but practicing it in a public and contrary / protesting manor is just not done often for cultural and loyalty reasons.
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It could just be anti-Provist rhetoric, yeah, although using what EVE would identify as a 'Gallente' concept would be a strange piece of rhetoric to use against Provists.
Could also be translation issues. When the Caldari speak it, they mean protected speech, as orange pointed out.
If we take a mile with the inch of 'free speech', and assume Ishukone's 'Liberal' leanings means 'Classically Liberal', then they're also believe in freedom of the individual, as they do the free market, and so forth. If we take that stretch, how on earth do they fit in the State? Considering the Caldari are portrayed as relatively united, having liberty-minded Caldari existing in the same space as authoritarian legalist ones is a bit mindboggling. But again, that's just a stretch. IMO I think Ishukone 'Liberal' means liberal to the free markets, not liberal as in liberty.
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I Believe the State 'has' free speech, but practicing it in a public and contrary / protesting manor is just not done often for cultural and loyalty reasons.
Then the Empire has "free speech," but practicing it in a public contrary/protesting manner is just not done often for cultural (ie wanting to avoid burning in hell) and loyalty (ie not wanting to get shot in the face on the way to hell) reasons.
I think Ishukone 'Liberal' means liberal to the free markets, not liberal as in liberty
Yes
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The Liberal faction also believes in " generally cooperative relations with foreign powers ... [and] fair treatment for all, both within the State and without (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Corporate_Factions#Liberals)"
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That depends how the Liberals define 'fair treatment'. There may also be a dichotomy between how the Caldari leadership and how the Caldari people see things. The Caldari leadership can be broken down into three blocs, but I'm not sure the Caldari people can be too. I don't remember where it was, but there was a reference the three blocs regard foreign trade policy, not necessarily domestic policy.
If so, then those living under Ishukone might as well move en masse to the Federation, if they really want to embrace liberalism in the holistic sense. But we know that's not true. It just seems contradictory that the Caldari are a united people that embrace authoritarian legalism, militarism, collectivism, and unquestioning loyalty, yet Ishukone Caldari are the complete opposite of that (freedom of speech does no favours to unquestioning loyalty after all). Maybe it's supposed to be paradoxical, but eh, I was sort of enjoying the contrasts more than the similarities between the Fed and Caldari.
Thing is, Fed liberty-liberalism is portrayed as having problems with divisiveness and disunity. If Ishukone embrace liberty-liberalism too, yet have no problems with divisiveness and disunity, then I'd wonder if the Caldari were wired differently to normal humans. Classical liberalism is about putting the individual first. But the Caldari don't do this.
EDIT: Oh, I'd also add that the Fed govt has also historically been into "fair treatment for all" and "generally cooperative relations with foreign powers". This doesn't make them the good guys, nor does it make Ishukone the good guys either. Both are doing it for their own benefit, and realize it's a pretty cloak to go in with.
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The Liberal faction also believes in " generally cooperative relations with foreign powers ... [and] fair treatment for all, both within the State and without (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Corporate_Factions#Liberals)"
And the contrast would be that Patriots generally are uncooperative with foreign powers and do not care about the treatment of others outside the State.
It is fairly straightforward to argue that the Patriot and Provists ideal envisions fair treatment of all Caldari within the State. Heth entered power and began a series of reforms to establish a meritocratic oligarchy, where previously existed a nepotistic oligarchy. Problem with revolutions is that they often fail to achieve their aims, merely replacing the actors and we have never gained real insight into how the reforms have played out (may need to try and push for a bit of news there for Lai Dai).
[spoiler]The Lai Dai Corporation and its employees remain stunned at the unraveling occurring throughout the State. One mid-level executive, having risen through the corporation's ranks on his merit over the past 5 years had this to say "Lai Dai's management took to enacting the initial reforms with zeal. Our records, achievements and demerits, are recorded and made public for the wider corporation to see. I got where I am today by being part of successful teams and helping to lead those teams. I and the teams I built have been recognized repeatedly for that. I just don't understand how they failed elsewhere."
In addition, LDPS's stellar-modelling division failed to predict the cascade of events that have occurred over the past few days. An LDPS spokesman said, "we lacked insight into Mito and the surrounding area. Our models could not take into account the impacts of a CPD raid in the area and the outcome of that raid."
Lai Dai's leadership has been in catch-up mode since events began to unwind, attempting to gain a better picture of the future.
[/spoiler]
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IMO the Caldari have the right to say anything they like... if they can live with the consequences or have the clout to avoid the repercussions. Freedom of speech seems to imply right, not necessarily accounting for ability. On the flip side, Freedom to Speak or some other suitable name, means you can open your mouth and make noise, but you can be brought to book for the content, not necessarily accounting for necessity of said content.
Consider it as the corporate system it is. An employee of Apple, McD's or any other large chain can say whatever they like whenever they like, even railing against the company. But they can be fired for such activity (there are usually specific clauses in employment contracts designed to prevent internal defamation and we all know how whistle blowing turns out, even when the whistle blower has every reason to speak out). The difference here is that your job, is your citizenship in the State. If you think someone will pick you up, or you can go it alone, all steam ahead (provist jackboots taken out of the picture for a moment), otherwise it is a one way trip to outcast-ville, population poverty.
That's my view on the matter anyway. Who your bosses, bosses boss is, and how loud you shout, are the two main factors as to how many tonnes of bricks come hurtling towards those exercising their right to pass air over their vocal chords.
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Ah, Aelisha has a very good outline.
Alternatively, the use of 'civil rights' and 'free speech' might just be trigger words since it's The Scope reporting.
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Then it isn't a concept of "free speech." It is a concept of "protected speech" and there is a nuanced, but important difference.
I think the Caldari in general may have what might be considered, "Whistleblower" laws which would fit in with the meritocratic ideal (internal corruption also affects the bottom line). However, how it is defined may vary from each mega and due to the fact that making public dubious corporate operations might affect share prices matters tend to be handled differently or in private in order to, "save face".
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The very use of the word law carries with it ideas in my mind that do not apply to the Caldari.
"Whistleblower laws" - really internal corporate efficiency regulations are all about routing out internal corruption and gaining efficiency within the corporation. But "big State" isn't going to save you if you make your company/corporation look bad by going to the Scope with some juicy bit of dirt.
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The very use of the word law carries with it ideas in my mind that do not apply to the Caldari.
Yes, Caldari probably have their own terms and definitions.
I think there should be a discussion on the legal system of the Caldari State separate from this though.
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I've got the impression that most of the Megas have the opinion that every citizen is free to hold and express an opinion, provided that they accept the consequences of sharing it. In general the Caldari don't much value speeches on their own merits - feeling that unless someone is willing to put their shoulder behind an idea and push, it's just useless noise.
Speaking against the CPD is something that, I assume, has been happening a lot lately. I'm taking this from Falcon's statements that whilst the average Joe Caldari appreciates a lot of what Heth did getting into power, CPD intrusions into daily life are becoming onerous and unwelcome. Obviously, CPD's raid on Ishukone property represent a serious breach of protocol and are nigh on unsupportable by any right-thinking Caldari who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Provist.
That said, I read Kor's speech as going a lot further than expressing concerns and enticing the average citizen into legal resistance. I think it came damn close to inciting armed revolt and I'm wondering how Ishukone could do anything other than disavow it, as John was forced to do.
Nice writing though, eh? :)
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Just my two deci-ISK, but I don't think most megas give a damn what their low-level employees say or do on their off hours. So long as it doesn't impact efficiency, or reflect poorly on the parent corp, the effect of letting them do as they please is negligible. And the cost of attempting to ensure each and every citizen is fully 100% loyal and complying with company policy every minute of every day would be overwhelming. We're talking billions of people per planet, and there are a -lot- of planets in Eve. The fact that the megas can operate like they do at all is awe-inspiring just by itself, nevermind the sort of bureaucracy that would be required for the level of thought-police needed to counteract general free-speech.
Granted, if someone says something that -does- infringe upon efficiency or solidarity, that might be a different story. But 80%-90% of the time, I really can't see the mega worrying too much.
I'll also cast my vote in that the main point of the news flash wasn't necessarily that Caldari have civil rights (which is an efficiency thing; happy workers are productive workers), rules, regulations, whatever you want to call them. Rather, the focus was more on the CPD raid itself. Which, as I understand, was conducted on some pretty shaky legal ground, if indeed it was conducted on any legal basis at all. From the sound of things, the Provists might be getting a little too morally superior for their own good.
I myself, with my Gallente leanings, will be watching with popcorn and great interest.
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The very use of the word law carries with it ideas in my mind that do not apply to the Caldari.
Very much this.
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Ok, so color me new, but how are laws, or the concept of laws, un-Caldari? Corporations thrive on legality and policy, to which laws are nothing more than the written codification thereof.
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As I see it, the State, as an entity, operates largely as an interface between the Megacorps, and as a tool for the Megacorps to project foreign policy as a unit. It's laws are the sort of thing the SEC in the US might be concerned with. Laws as they apply to individuals or smaller organizations are really more in the vein of whatever the policies of the Mega who has jurisdiction are.
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Ok, I follow that so far. It even makes sense from what I know. But I'm still not sure about how that makes the concept of laws unsuited for the Caldari.
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Ok, I follow that so far. It even makes sense from what I know. But I'm still not sure about how that makes the concept of laws unsuited for the Caldari.
My view is that most people think of law being something a government imposes on its citizens and their organizations.
When someone says Caldari Law or State Law it implies there is some State entity that can impose laws across the State without the consent of the real powers that be (the corporations). Up until recently, I think many of us viewed State Law as not existing outside of contracts signed between corporations. The State had no authority to say that the same law applies in a SuVee enclave as it does in a KK enclave.
At this point, however, based on some of the language, news, and pf appearing; this interpretation seems to have been wrong.
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Some of the new PF calls it a bit into question - but to the degree that it is right, the CPD seems to be trying to change it as well.
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I thought State law could be synonymous with "any law that all eight megacorporations agree to" still.
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Previous to the abortion that is the CPD, the only laws that were actually imposed by the CEP were ones that the CBT was in charge of enforcing that generally were in place to keep the corporations from being too destructive towards each other and uniting the Caldari towards the outside world. "Murder" is not a State law, it is a law enforced by the corporation which control the jurisdiction of where it occurred (similar to how in most cases, murder is not a federal crime in the United States unless it involves federal employees). In my not-so-humble opinion, anyway.
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Caldari Mary Sues - Ishukone! Play Caldari badasses without all the nasty fascist bits!
Now, now Seri, I wouldn't go so far as to call Ishukone Mary Sues. Just because Ishukone citizens enjoy a little bit of leeway doesn't mean Ishukone as a whole are sweet, innocent angels. I mean, gosh, what the hell do you think Ishukone and I-RED are really doing down here in Syndicate? We are not all ponies, unicorns, and rainbows let me tell you! ;)
Also, just because the State is currently controlled by fascist-like Heth/Provists doesn't mean the megacorps are, by extension, fascist.
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Seri is just jelly and mad that his RP isn't half as interesting as those Ishukone types. ;)
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Once again, I need to point out that "Liberal" Caldari does not mean puppies and sunshine. It means they believe in open trade and have an internationalist view on foreign relations. At least in my mind, Ishukone does just as many dirty tricks as every other corporation. They are probably more focused on the long term success of their company and the Caldari State than the Practicals, but they are certainly not goody two shoes.
If CCP starts turning things that way, I will be most displeased.
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Once again, I need to point out that "Liberal" Caldari does not mean puppies and sunshine. It means they believe in open trade and have an internationalist view on foreign relations. At least in my mind, Ishukone does just as many dirty tricks as every other corporation. They are probably more focused on the long term success of their company and the Caldari State than the Practicals, but they are certainly not goody two shoes.
If CCP starts turning things that way, I will be most displeased.
I don't think you need worry too much about CCP portraying anything about the State in an absolutely positive light, ever. :P
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Liberal Caldari jackboots have a :) on them.
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Jackboots are not nearly as effective as marketing and image management.
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I've always tended to think that for Caldari, foreign markets in the Federation, Empire and Republic are simply exist to be exploited for the benefit of their own companies and the Caldari State. Ishukone and Hyasyoda have only survived in what is an extremely competitive domestic market where you've got KK and the Patriots able to outproduce them in raw industrial capacity on the one hand and SuVee and the Practicals having cornered markets ranging from agriculture, construction, entertainment and retail is the fact that they're able to sell themselves well to foreign markets through effective advertising and management of their brands.
It's so effective that people like President Foiritain fell hook, line and sinker for Gariushi and the whole, "Fostering goodwill between Caldari and Gallente," that it seems they failed to notice just how much Ishukone gave the Fed the shaft at Crielere and ran off with all the juicy research for themselves that they were supposed to be doing together in the, "Promotion of peace."
Honestly, I sometimes think a lot of Caldari in the State look at what Ishukone does in foreign markets and wonder if all those Gallente, Amarr and Minmatar really are that stupid to fall for all their tricks. Then again, hey, they're all stupid foreigners and just don't understand Caldari business. :lol:
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I am not sure what presence Hyasyoda actually has outside the State - no stations at the very least.
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I am not sure what presence Hyasyoda actually has outside the State - no stations at the very least.
I think there were news articles way back hinting at Hyasyoda in the Khanid Kingdom.
I'm not even sure what Hyasyoda actually does, or what markets its in outside of that.
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No one really knows for sure. The basterds are perhaps the most hush-hush of all the megacorps.
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I'm not even sure what Hyasyoda actually does, or what markets its in outside of that.
Isn't it obvious? They make Katrinas.
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I am not sure what presence Hyasyoda actually has outside the State - no stations at the very least.
I think there were news articles way back hinting at Hyasyoda in the Khanid Kingdom.
I'm not even sure what Hyasyoda actually does, or what markets its in outside of that.
Same thing all the other megacorporations do - everything.
I think all the Caldari mega's have interest in the Kingdom, something not played upon sufficiently I think.