Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 25 Mar 2011, 12:31
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LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khiZgwObJo4)
In this vlog, I critically analyse topics regarding the social cliques in the EVE Online roleplaying community, how they can engineer your opinions of individual players, and why you should avoid such influences.
Looking back at it, and what I could do better, I wanted a more general approach to the meta-subject, and perhaps used myself and Seriphyn too much as an example (I do defend Revan Nefaris and Julianus Soter in the video if you want some controversial reason to watch its 15 minute length :P)
It is, however, my first attempt at a vlog ever, and wanted to address these specific topics. Perhaps my next ones will talk about "Effort and conviction" and "Repressed subconscious".
Enjoy.
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I said something, but, I got linked the vid, didn't realize there was a post here... so... I guess I'll awkwardly say something here too.
It's unavoidable that we have human interaction tendencies even in terms of characters. We have a habit of attaching ourselves to characters anyway. I've honestly seen someone get decked for speaking ill of Boba Fett. It's really impossible to be 100% objective, so when a character does something we don't like - RP, movies, series, what have you - the "actor" gets blamed.
Obviously it's ridiculous, but it happens. We're all guilty of it at some point. I think the important thing is to regulate yourself and apologize if you step over the line, so to speak.
Good points all around, bucko. <likes>
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Obviously it's ridiculous, but it happens. We're all guilty of it at some point. I think the important thing is to regulate yourself and apologize if you step over the line, so to speak.
Agreed. I keep having to take a step back and separate the player from toon... though in some cases (no, I won't say who) my prejudice based on the character's personality has turned out to be vindicated by the person's OOC behaviour.
I think people's personalities shine through in their characters anyway. The same is true for actors in movies and TV shows - casting is so important because some people could just never carry a role, even if there's nothing about them that's overtly inappropriate for the part. For instance, I don't think the casting of Sean Bean and Viggo Mortensen in Lord of the Rings would have worked well if their positions were reversed.
both acting and RPing work best when the character isn't very far removed from the actor's/RPer's own personality. So I don't think it's invalid to sketch out first impressions of another RPer from their toon, but that's the most you can do - basic impressions. It's only fair to give them the benefit of a fair hearing in person.
just my $0.02
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I think people's personalities shine through in their characters anyway. The same is true for actors in movies and TV shows - casting is so important because some people could just never carry a role, even if there's nothing about them that's overtly inappropriate for the part. For instance, I don't think the casting of Sean Bean and Viggo Mortensen in Lord of the Rings would have worked well if their positions were reversed.
both acting and RPing work best when the character isn't very far removed from the actor's/RPer's own personality. So I don't think it's invalid to sketch out first impressions of another RPer from their toon, but that's the most you can do - basic impressions. It's only fair to give them the benefit of a fair hearing in person.
Shhhh...don't steal my further ideas!
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just so long as you credit me, dude.
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Great VLog there, Seri.
both acting and RPing work best when the character isn't very far removed from the actor's/RPer's own personality. So I don't think it's invalid to sketch out first impressions of another RPer from their toon, but that's the most you can do - basic impressions. It's only fair to give them the benefit of a fair hearing in person.
I agree. I first 'met' quite a few of my close meatspace friends (including my DH) as virtual adversaries. On the opposite side of things, in the past I've had some wonderful virtual friendships that ... yeah, let's just say that Internet RP can filter out unsavory characteristics as much as it can encourage them.
Not that I'm saying that I'm wholly devoid of unsavory characteristics.
So, speaking of perceptions ... hey, Seriphyn? You've interacted as Seriphyn with Celeste, Vieve and Sabi. So, would you believe I also play Maris Verdure?
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both acting and RPing work best when the character isn't very far removed from the actor's/RPer's own personality.
Yes, no, maybe. I don't think Sir Anthony Hopkins has even the slightest tendency towards killing and eating people in real life, for example, and if you want to see some of the sheer range a good actor like Brad Pitt has, see e.g. Fight Club or Snatch back to back with Burn After Reading. Acting is a job; what counts is not what kind of person you are, but how good you are at portraying different characters. Affinity with the character can't hurt, of course, but generally being typecasted is seen as a bad thing.
Roleplay's somewhat different because it's all improv, all the time. No lines to study, scripts to read, or directors and writers with a solid vision of what the story and character should be to guide you. When your character staggers into a capsuleer club at 2am for some late-night roleplay, after a hard day at work and a harder evening spent gatecamping in the ass end of Derelik, and you get a situation tossed your character's way you couldn't possibly have foreseen -- yeah, chances are higher the hole gets plugged with something that mirrors your own convictions.
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.
Edit, aside: oh, right, on-topic comments! Rah, rah, Seri. Don't agree with everything, but you made some good points. Takes balls to sit and talk to people like this, too. Looking forward to the next one.
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Yes, no, maybe. I don't think Sir Anthony Hopkins has even the slightest tendency towards killing and eating people in real life, for example, and if you want to see some of the sheer range a good actor like Brad Pitt has, see e.g. Fight Club or Snatch back to back with Burn After Reading.
well, the point of acting IS to be able to assume another persona, but certain actors will fit certain parts better than others. Sir Anthony may not have an cannibalistic inclinations himself, but I can't think of many other actors that could have pulled off Dr. Lecter's quiet, sinister intellect quite as well. For all his flexibility as an actor, I doubt Brad Pitt could do a convincing Hannibal Lecter, for instance.
I'm not talking about typecasting here, but rather Casting as a subtle art of matching the character with the right actor. Anybody can be given a role wildly at odds with their own personality, but only a handful can carry such a part convincingly.
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Well, agreed, partially.. in most cases, I think the restrictions are less about the personal character of the actor in question, and more in the imagery and reputation the audience associates with them, and their own ability to act out a certain range of behaviour.
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I'd also think the actor's ability to dig deep and find some connection to the character matters. Brad Pitt may not actually walk around all the time in a raeg, but he's got it somewhere deep in there per Fight Club.
Same with our characters. Seriphyn-p may not be a militaristic horndog like Seriphyn-c, but...
Wait. Yes he is. ;) :D QED.
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Very Interesting VLOG, it does bring some interesting points to surface.
On what concerns my character specifically that you mention on your video, my opinion on the matter is that perhaps you overreact a bit on people's perception.
I, personally don't perceive that there is a massive dislike of Revan or the player behind it otherwise I wouldn't be making events with over 200 players attendance like the last gladiator games for example, neither these more light events with isk space consequence like the eve top model with a quite good level of acceptance either and obviously wouldn't have such large attendence to my bars and activities in game.
It's a bit dangerous to classify "rp community" as a small niche of some players who happens to enjoy spending time on forums etc. ( ex backstage or chatsubo). Take the Opera for example, I have every weekend around 50 players around the clock Friday-Sunday "role playing" inside a channel and many of them don't even know that this forum or role play related forums exists.
Aren't they part of a "role play community" because of that? I would think they are. what about those 200 plays players participating at events and such? Aren't they part of a "role play community" too?
So what is interesting to define in such vlogs or blogs is: what exactly is a " role play community" ?
To say that a character A or character B is " disliked" is a delicate topic that you should consider more carefully taking on account such answers to form an opinion, otherwise they might not reflect the actual situation in eve online as a game.
Also, some ideas to engage the topic: consider that the role play approach have changed much along the years. Personal dislikes and heavy ooc grudges were formed years back when players like myself and others began to do things that were against the " rule of precious books" that were unwritten but psychologically engaged into the minds of some prominent role players.
An example of that was when I decided to use mercenaries in role play wars. Nowadays this is largely welcomed and embraced but back there it was reason enough to label my behaviour as unacceptable and destructive towards the "role play community". So much that some of my most arduous "dislikes" comes exactly from those days.
I, as a player like to be innovative and challenge the status quo. I enjoy the game creating and pushing new concepts and I don't mind risking consequences for doing so.
So the change on approach and breaking pseudo rules were heavily done back in the years where we were all trying to form a common base to interact as a community but those years didn't shape themselves lightly.
Nowadays we have a very light, stable ( i dare say) "community" but consider that it did come with a price that some of us could say still see it reflected nowadays.
Next point, About the rumors you refer of people ooc hearing this and that, also comes from same sources. One good example that is quite (fun?) in a way 1, 2 players who are regulars of this ooc channel in game and the ic channel named summit - (both which revan neferis character is blocked by default btw) once had said that my work as an executive sport cars designer and engineer weren't really true, in fact I was a very ruthless Russian Mafiosa Boss which also engages on unholy baby killing ritualistic activities at the "Bohemian Grove"... which happens to play eve. *ahem*
In their minds, this "oh so terrible" revelation would supposedly reach the hearts of new players and tell them " dont you ever approach Revan or engage on Sani Sabik role play because THAT PLAYER OF THAT CHARACTER.... you SEE!?"
And several other attempts of character and role play "assassination" as the term used, have been attempted by the same players over and over along the years which reaches the scope of the channels they use to frequent ( and even that is backfiring ) but that's all about it really.
Case point in TL, DR version is: To say that what happens inside ooc channel is the same as the scope of "a role play community" is giving it a dimension that isn't really there.
Also, the last point on your video related to as why rumors generally comes from people who never interacted or spoken to the player before is because consider that there is a price to pay when we confront reality x the fantasies we want to believe. For example, I dare say that the many eve players and friends meeting me in real life along the years might have gotten a little bit disappointed by not finding the .22 caliber handgun under my business suit and they are also disappointed by the fact that Jade hasn't reported strange accidents with Ice picks either.... ouch?
But I use the " light comment " to show that people who spreads these sort of rumors have no interest on approaching the object of their dislike because that would break their rumors chain and the evil picture they like to think its cool to propagate. Of course some go beyond the edge of civility when they see that their pseudo rumors aren't really helping much their case but that's totally irrelevant to the point about your comment on the video.
Wall of text to comment here as my name specifically was mentioned in your vlog, so here are my views on the matters you spoke about.
Hope to see more vlogs from you Seriphyn, good work.
edit to correct ic/ooc channel names and references
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First off I want to say nice vid :D and kudos to you for having the balls to do something like that.
You raised some good points and I think to some extent we are all guilty of bringing OOC over into IC. I try my best to give people the benefit of the doubt if I havent interacted with them regardless of what I may have heard about them. Most times I can pull this off but even then I still have what Ive heard in the back of my mind and that probably does influence my interactions both IC and OOC to some extent but thats just how it goes. Also most times I end up at least not disliking said person after I have talked to them myself at least OOCly ICly there are just some people that Ember was predisposed to not like in an IC manner(like Seriphyn-c). If Im honest and had bothered to fill it out I probably would have listed you as my "Lex Luthor" during my time in CalMil, and now that Im out of game I regret not pursuing that more while I was still playing.
Overall though like I said great vid and Im looking forward to the next ones.
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Cool VLog, Seri!
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Definitely solid points Seri. Probably a good way to vent as well.
It would be interesting to see a list of what cliques people consider to exist (some may be very real, others not so much).
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Cool stuff, I'm glad this has had a positive reception :)
Will definitely be thinking up of more, and such
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I can't say that my immediate reaction on listening to this wasn't wanting to say a good-natured HTFU, but you know, the honest admission of not being thick-skinned about things and actually making a video to deliver your message sold me a bit.
Cliques form everywhere, it's human nature. Because these cliques are disseminating information between members (pretty much by definition, because the cliques form up and maintain cohesion by that communication), strong opinions on outsiders will quickly get translated to everyone in the group. Open contact between groups tends to break up such negative images though, as I'm sure any attendee of a Fan Fest will tell us. This video was an example of such open communication btw, so good on you.
In Eve or any other role-playing environment, things get doubly complicated because of our characters. We don't only display our own personality, but that of our characters. It isn't and shouldn't be a surprise that we allow someone's character's personality to influence our view of the player. That's to a large extent how we are wired.
It is also complicated once again by the fact that not everyone is role-playing a character very distinct from their own personality. They are playing their avatars in the virtual world and not a separate character created with what could be called a more authorial viewpoint. An avatar role-player will also tend to assume that other role-players are like him, just as a non-roleplayer might when reading a role-players impassionate defense of something like slavery and assume that opinion as the player's. When we meet someone in game or read their writing, we necessarily don't know what type of a player we're dealing with.
So, when viewing the community, the characters themselves are moving, the players are moving and the ground is shaking. It's difficult to get your bearings and impossible to fully control how others will react to the myriad things. You can only control your own communication, which will then by necessity have an impact on the rest of the community.
My advice is to have a thick skin and for those for whom it doesn't come naturally it is crucial to understand the above dynamics and expect that you control only yourself. In addition, people tend to be very keen to jump on any argument. I'm not going to say that don't do it, but that when you do it be very clear what you are arguing about and on what level. If we're having an argument about slavery for example, we will get nowhere if I think you are an idiot for believing slavery is cool and you think me obtuse for not recognizing that slavery is a part of the Amarr Empire and the game we play.
But even after all that, there will be some people who won't like you. They will embrace the power of the Internet and be an idiot, too. I'm perhaps lucky that I am indeed quite thick-skinned (or that I perhaps have "the sensitivity of concrete" as Ashar kindly put it). But it's not just thick skin (or a lack of functional brain matter)...
I recognize I play a game with complicated interactions. You can get caught up in an interaction with me that leaves you thinking I'm an utter twerp. It's too bad, but I'm okay with that. I don't need validation from this community to feel good as a person (but I'm not saying that validation doesn't feel good).
Indeed, I think that's the key to the whole mess. We all need communities that provide us validation and indeed make us feel good as people. We really do. I would hope that most people have such in RL. Eve being a cutthroat game about a rather dark universe with a whole host of antagonistic and disturbing interactions at its core game-play and flavor is definitely not a good place to come find that validation and peace of heart.
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Seri, this is great value.
I had more to say on the IC/OOC problems you mentioned, but I think what I wrote was unhelpful, so I deleted it.
However, I will say that I agree that Gallente RP needs development. There seem to be more Intaki RPers than straight Gallente - and as I've said before I'd love to see the I-RED/Electus Matari/Vanguard Imperium of the Gallente. There just doesn't seem to be such a thing.
Part of it is because the most obvious Federal RPers (Seri, Soter, Ixiris) don't seem to be massive fans of each other. Maybe that's symbolic of the way Federal politics work. Many of the other Federals either don't really RP (Val Erian, for example) or have taken other paths (Myxx) or whatever.
And part of it is probably because many of the Federal RPers are in FW, which means no alliance.
Anyway, just thoughts.
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I've often wondered if EM doesn't soak up a lot of the folks that might otherwise have an inclination toward focusing on Fed RP.
Then again, I've also wondered if it has to do with the Fed having the smallest of the four primary trade hubs. Jita is by far the largest, of course, but IIRC Rens and Amarr have similar trade volumes to each other but both of them larger than Dodixie. So indirectly, do more players tend to congregate in other areas?
Pure idle speculation.
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Really? I thought Dodixie was the next biggest after Jita. Are there any figures on this?
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The QENs usually have data on the most populated systems. Volume of trade data would be nicer, but population's a decent proxy. From the last one:
Jita 28,996
Rens 7,609
Amarr 7,124
Dodixie 5,838
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and as I've said before I'd love to see the I-RED/Electus Matari/Vanguard Imperium of the Gallente. There just doesn't seem to be such a thing.
There once was. The Acheron Federation*- STRIX and Phoenix Wing mainly. They fought a war with CAIN and APEX.
*Edit for memory fail.
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However, I will say that I agree that Gallente RP needs development. There seem to be more Intaki RPers than straight Gallente - and as I've said before I'd love to see the I-RED/Electus Matari/Vanguard Imperium of the Gallente. There just doesn't seem to be such a thing.
We had Acheron's Federation back in the past (with Strix and stuff like that inside). Too bad it eventually fell apart.
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I was gonna talk a bit about Fed rp, but I think that'd be better in its own thread, so that's where it'll go.
Seriphyn, cool vlog. It takes guts to lay it out there like that. I'm not around much, but I'm still in your camp, for what it's worth.
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Hey I'm just glad he wore a shirt this time. 8)
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Seriphyn, cool vlog. It takes guts to lay it out there like that. I'm not around much, but I'm still in your camp, for what it's worth.
Agree. Mammal and Seri might be not necessarily politically or socially alike, but I consider the two characters to be allies.