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Author Topic: More Guns?  (Read 4647 times)

Katrina Oniseki

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More Guns?
« on: 09 Mar 2012, 00:43 »

We all know that battleships in EVE have -only- large guns. For game balance reasons, we don't have any point defense systems. We must unfit a large gun to fit a smaller gun.

Realistically, this is ridiculous. All ships from Frigate to Titan would have weapon systems far in excess than what we see ingame, right? Why wouldn't a battleship also have a battery of medium and small turrets? Why would a carrier or supercarrier be COMPLETELY devoid of dedicated weapons?

Things like this seem very difficult to swallow for me, and it really screws with my suspension of disbelief. I just can't imagine any competent ship designer building a military vessel with such obvious flaws.

While this trend is used and followed in PF, has it ever been explained?

Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #1 on: 09 Mar 2012, 01:06 »

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Seriphyn

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #2 on: 09 Mar 2012, 07:34 »

I agree. This is why EVE isn't really much of a space simulator...more of a social/political/economic one. WW2 battleships had huge cannons but also an array of smaller caliber guns and so forth...modern frigates and destroyers (cruisers too if you're American, Russian or Peruvian) are equipped with anti-ship missiles, a primary close-in gun for land support, torpedos, GPMGs...

I think it was on the battleships article on the FP that mentioned they once had point defences but were stripped out when drones came along.

But yeah...EVE sux RP sux etc.
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Desiderya

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #3 on: 09 Mar 2012, 07:39 »

Yes, the maximum of eight weapon slot-rule is more counter-intuitive the bigger the ships get.

However, a ship focused on a sole purpose is more effective than a mixture. You don't take battleships into environments with loads of small targets, therefore you can focus on their large weapon systems to maximize their destructive potential.
A setup that sacrifices space ( I am not talking 'fitting slots' or game mechanic terms, I'm assuming that a ships maximum number of weapons equals their maximum potential ) reserved for their large weapons to add smaller batteries on top of it would fare better in a situation battleships aren't designed for, and worse in any situations battleships are used for.
Therefore using a mix of specialized vessels is superior to having 'one size fits them all', unless you already have decisively superior numbers or fighting strength. RTS's like Supreme Commander are a good way to illustrate that point.

Compare the stats of http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/UEF_T2_Destroyer and one of the t2 submarines, like http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/Aeon_T2_Submarine_Hunter , and a t2 cruiser for anti-air purposes. http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/UEF_T2_Cruiser

A bunch of them can fend of lone submarines with ease, but when faced with a force of equal cost, they're going to have problems.

EVE's ships have drones as a point defense mechanism. And on top of that, the smallest target in EVE is a rather sizeable frigate, not asymetric threats modern navies face. On top of that, EVE's spaceships are more resilient and not so vulnerable to the metaphorical bomb on a rubber dinghy.

« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2012, 07:44 by Desiderya »
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #4 on: 09 Mar 2012, 08:14 »

TBH, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-IPZhoM664

*worships*

On a simmilar note, one thing that would be cool is if carriers and supercarriers launched squadrons as opposed to a single fighter/fighter bomber. I'm pretty sure a carrier could caryy more than just a handful of the buggers.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2012, 08:55 by Nmaro Makari »
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kalaratiri

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #5 on: 09 Mar 2012, 10:09 »

On a simmilar note, one thing that would be cool is if carriers and supercarriers launched squadrons as opposed to a single fighter/fighter bomber. I'm pretty sure a carrier could caryy more than just a handful of the buggers.

As far as I am aware, a fully skilled supercarrier pilot will be launching 20 fighter bombers, and with 5 Drone Control Units has the bandwith to have 25 out at once. Have I taken this the wrong way?
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BloodBird

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #6 on: 09 Mar 2012, 10:22 »

On a simmilar note, one thing that would be cool is if carriers and supercarriers launched squadrons as opposed to a single fighter/fighter bomber. I'm pretty sure a carrier could caryy more than just a handful of the buggers.

As far as I am aware, a fully skilled supercarrier pilot will be launching 20 fighter bombers, and with 5 Drone Control Units has the bandwith to have 25 out at once. Have I taken this the wrong way?

Kilometer-long, massive-scale warships designed to carry fighter-craft smaller than frigates can only maintain 25 at a time with heavy modification.

In case you did not get it, that's a problematic, if not out-right idiotic short-coming; ship that big should be able to carry hundreds if not thousands of them and send out at least a few dozen at a time.

@ Aldrith; you ass, now I recall all the nice stuff I'm missing because HW2 won't patch and let me install mods in Windows 7 :(

@ Main topic; The problems with EVE's ship-design is that it's made with game-mechanics and balance in mind. Yes, it's somewhat idiotic compared to designs and weapon loadouts in games like HW2, SOTS and many others, but those are not MMO's. IF CCP were to re-work their game-universe to account for a far more realistic weapon-setup on their ships, the whole game has to be modified into near unrecognizable levels with massive changes to ships, tactics, PF info, and much, much more. It would completely change the way the game works and how it's even played.

I can't say I would not mind such a change, but it's more realistic and likely we will see such a system in an entirely different MMO than as a modification to EVE. Again, I'm not sure I'd mind.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2012, 18:37 by BloodBird »
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kalaratiri

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #7 on: 09 Mar 2012, 10:25 »

On a simmilar note, one thing that would be cool is if carriers and supercarriers launched squadrons as opposed to a single fighter/fighter bomber. I'm pretty sure a carrier could caryy more than just a handful of the buggers.

As far as I am aware, a fully skilled supercarrier pilot will be launching 20 fighter bombers, and with 5 Drone Control Units has the bandwith to have 25 out at once. Have I taken this the wrong way?

Kilometer-long, massive-scale warships designed to carry fighter-craft smaller than frigates can only maintain 25 at a time with heavy modification.

In case you did not get it, that's a problematic, if not out-right idiotic short-coming; ship that big should be able to carry hundreds if not thousands of them and send out at least a few dozen at a time.

Keep in mind, the fighter bombers are the size of cruisers. If you're using say, light, medium, heavy or sentry drones you can have hundreds or thousands of them. And you can still spit out 20 unmodified.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #8 on: 09 Mar 2012, 10:50 »

On a simmilar note, one thing that would be cool is if carriers and supercarriers launched squadrons as opposed to a single fighter/fighter bomber. I'm pretty sure a carrier could caryy more than just a handful of the buggers.

As far as I am aware, a fully skilled supercarrier pilot will be launching 20 fighter bombers, and with 5 Drone Control Units has the bandwith to have 25 out at once. Have I taken this the wrong way?

Kilometer-long, massive-scale warships designed to carry fighter-craft smaller than frigates can only maintain 25 at a time with heavy modification.

In case you did not get it, that's a problematic, if not out-right idiotic short-coming; ship that big should be able to carry hundreds if not thousands of them and send out at least a few dozen at a time.

Keep in mind, the fighter bombers are the size of cruisers. If you're using say, light, medium, heavy or sentry drones you can have hundreds or thousands of them. And you can still spit out 20 unmodified.

Frigates, not cruisers.

To everyone else:

If I wanted to RP, say, a battleship with sub-frigate size point defense systems.. would that be so bad? I don't see a pressing need for this because I don't particularly enjoy roleplaying space battles... but if I wanted to throw the reference in there would that be fine?

I'd have to agree with the posters above that capital ships are shockingly lacking in ability. For all their mass and volume, they really don't have much beyond EHP to show for it. You'd think these things would be bristling with weapons or fighter bays, yet they are not. Even so, there's so little PF about the workings of a capital ship, it wouldn't be so bad to slap on a battery of smaller turrets, right?

kalaratiri

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #9 on: 09 Mar 2012, 11:00 »

On a simmilar note, one thing that would be cool is if carriers and supercarriers launched squadrons as opposed to a single fighter/fighter bomber. I'm pretty sure a carrier could caryy more than just a handful of the buggers.

As far as I am aware, a fully skilled supercarrier pilot will be launching 20 fighter bombers, and with 5 Drone Control Units has the bandwith to have 25 out at once. Have I taken this the wrong way?

Kilometer-long, massive-scale warships designed to carry fighter-craft smaller than frigates can only maintain 25 at a time with heavy modification.

In case you did not get it, that's a problematic, if not out-right idiotic short-coming; ship that big should be able to carry hundreds if not thousands of them and send out at least a few dozen at a time.

Keep in mind, the fighter bombers are the size of cruisers. If you're using say, light, medium, heavy or sentry drones you can have hundreds or thousands of them. And you can still spit out 20 unmodified.

Frigates, not cruisers.


My mistake. I was remembering their EHP. Cyclops has 5k shields, 6k armour and 9k structure before skills. As that is actually better than a battlecruiser, I got a bit mixed up. Point being, even if they are not large, their toughness and damage dealing more than makes up for it.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #10 on: 09 Mar 2012, 11:07 »

N'maro: According to the PF (somewhere, I looked around briefly and couldn't find it, but :work: so not as much time to look around), Fighters and Fighter Bombers are not very autonomous; they're designed as drones that were raised on steroids and growth hormones. The pilot(s) are just an organic component. In fact, the capsuleer piloting the (super)carrier is doing a very large part of the work. When their parent ship is destroyed, the fighters lose all of the telemetry and targeting information they had available to them - without this, they're useless.
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #11 on: 09 Mar 2012, 11:23 »

On a simmilar note, one thing that would be cool is if carriers and supercarriers launched squadrons as opposed to a single fighter/fighter bomber. I'm pretty sure a carrier could caryy more than just a handful of the buggers.

As far as I am aware, a fully skilled supercarrier pilot will be launching 20 fighter bombers, and with 5 Drone Control Units has the bandwith to have 25 out at once. Have I taken this the wrong way?

Kilometer-long, massive-scale warships designed to carry fighter-craft smaller than frigates can only maintain 25 at a time with heavy modification.

In case you did not get it, that's a problematic, if not out-right idiotic short-coming; ship that big should be able to carry hundreds if not thousands of them and send out at least a few dozen at a time.

Keep in mind, the fighter bombers are the size of cruisers. If you're using say, light, medium, heavy or sentry drones you can have hundreds or thousands of them. And you can still spit out 20 unmodified.

Frigates, not cruisers.

To everyone else:

If I wanted to RP, say, a battleship with sub-frigate size point defense systems.. would that be so bad? I don't see a pressing need for this because I don't particularly enjoy roleplaying space battles... but if I wanted to throw the reference in there would that be fine?

I'd have to agree with the posters above that capital ships are shockingly lacking in ability. For all their mass and volume, they really don't have much beyond EHP to show for it. You'd think these things would be bristling with weapons or fighter bays, yet they are not. Even so, there's so little PF about the workings of a capital ship, it wouldn't be so bad to slap on a battery of smaller turrets, right?

Hrmmm...

As far I can see, the current precedent with player fiction based on PF is sort of that the PF "is", with no question and little room for interpretation. Anything not PF is left up to interpretation, BUT this doesnt extend to godmodding, as there still needs to be some kind of realistic in-game base to what you're writing.

For instance, some people claim they helped create the tech for the Dust 514 soldiers. We all know this to be BS. Some claim they are powerful spymasters with ears as far as the Inner Circle (or rather they shout this over the IGS, like all good intelligence operatives do...)

BUT this is not to say that creativity should be frowned upon. Their mistake was to do something publicly with no PF or in-game base and expect people to just roll with it. If say you were to IGS post about it or talk about it in summit, someone would probably clock that it doesnt really have an ingame base and the conversation would be downhill from there. But if you were just playing around with a concept, privately or with a few friends, or maybe writing some fiction, and not trying to pass it off publicly as "This totally happened yo" then theres no real problem with that as its your business and you're not trying to tell players something exists when they believe (and can back up with in-game reality) that it doesnt.

Like I said, theres no official rules, more of a social consensus and no-one will stop you. Feel free to play around with ideas, the best player fiction does. Just be warned that some players may object and cause unneccesary drama.

*EDIT* Of course, the in-game base rule only applies to in-game concepts. If its not directly related to anything actually in-game, huzzah! The only thing that can ruin you now is TonyG
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2012, 11:42 by Nmaro Makari »
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #12 on: 09 Mar 2012, 11:58 »

Worth noting that originally many ships could carry and launch several times more drones than they do now; in an effort to deal with lag, numbers were cut to the five-maximum-per-pilot limit we have today, while the drones' stats were multiplied to make the fewer drones still the equal of a swarm of say, twenty. This was a decision based purely in game design, not fiction, and there is (as best I know) no PF to explain it.

That said - when you are talking about point defense, are you talking about antidrone/antifrigate guns, or antimissile/antiprojectile systems?
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #13 on: 09 Mar 2012, 12:47 »

That said - when you are talking about point defense, are you talking about antidrone/antifrigate guns, or antimissile/antiprojectile systems?

Both, honestly. Take Battlestar Galactica for example, where the point defense systems of Galactica were able to provide a cover screen against both head on Raider attacks and missile fire from Basestars. You can clearly see the missiles from enemy Basestars being shot out of the sky before reaching Galactica. Even Viper pilots were warned to "stay out of Galactica's firing solution". I don't see why a similar system wouldn't work on a larger battleship in EVE.

When I say fitting smaller guns, I don't just mean fitting guns that are frigate sized, of course that is certainly an option. Instead of stopping at 125mm Autocannon, you might have point defense systems with even smaller caliber, like 75mm, or 50mm, or 25mm, or smaller. You could have flak screens, or anti-missile missile systems, or directional smartbombs, or anything really. Even stasis webifier technology can be used against incoming torpedoes.

There's any number of technologies we could apply to point-defense systems; but the goal is all the same: To combat sub-frigate threats.

For anything frigate sized and above, we'd be fitting equivalent guns. It's in that case that I can imagine having issues with PowerGrid or CPU, as those systems are fairly taxing. However, even that is negligible in the case of capital ships which should have PLENTY of PG/CPU to spare for frigate and cruiser sized weaponry, maybe even battleship weapons.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2012, 12:50 by Katrina Oniseki »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #14 on: 09 Mar 2012, 12:51 »

Gamedesign choice over realism. One of my biggest "meh" against eve combat, combined with a very, very poor, stiff and anti immersive combat animation (unlike homeworld, my reference of all). Eve has always done quite terribad in terms of immersion to my opinion, be it about sound, space animation, life in space, universe in movement, etc. In terms of screenplay, everything is dead, repeatitive and dull.
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