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[tarunik]

I think they needed to put up the sentry towers because they'd just get camped in by the United Campers of Rancer (TM) otherwise.  Not that they wouldn't do it anyway of course...also, for the Amarrians to get there in the first place without running head-on into said campers, they'd have to go the long way around, which takes them straight through the heart of the Minmatar Republic.  Sound like a fun choice?

[Senn Typhos]

This is why I'm glad I work for CPF. All my missions are indisputable facts.

Somebody needed to die and Senn killed him, the end, go home to smoke and watch kenduzana.

[Arkady Sadik]

This thread reads like a lot of upset.

I do not think we can simply use mission descriptions and go for "as-is" - especially old missions are horrible in that. Nor can we simply go "nah, those missions don't exist" just because they say something we don't like.

There is a rather new mission series called "Are You Receiving?" which has the following bit in the "extra info" some missions have, under the heading "Modern Slavery in Amarr." I think it's a very good description and pretty much reflects my understanding of the situation:

Whatever their other gifts, the Amarr are very good at two things: piety and self-justification. Both of these qualities, but most assuredly the second, come in handy when one considers the issue of slavery.

Since slavery is a consistently inherent theme in their religious doctrine (and how can something be wrong if faith allows it?), the Amarr must contend at all times with the disgust other races feel toward slavery. Chief among their opponents are the Gallente, whose displeasure is undoubtedly fueled by the many transplanted Minmatar flooding their homeworlds and stations. In the halcyon days of the Empire, the Amarr would easily have dismissed such concerns — but recent history has brought to some Amarr, at least, both humility and prudence.

Yet the need for slaves has not diminished — and in fact, since the recent Elder Fleet "recovery" effort in Amarr space, that need has grown terribly. However, the Amarr tradition of collecting slaves has necessarily become problematic for those Heirs and Holders, who may face trade embargoes and similar punitive actions from other nations. So many Amarr look surreptitiously to more "independent" sources of slaves — sources who don’t care for any optics outside of their own bank balances.

The situation as I understand it is simply that the Amarr do indeed raid other nations for slaves, but they'd rather not officially admit it and try to deny it when confronted with the fact. That's pretty much also what the Republic did with the freedom fighters: Of course the Republic supported them, but they officially denied any involvement. (We, as in EM, had a lot of fun with the RP with those who claimed the Republic didn't do anything to free people; "OF COURSE WE DO, BUT WE CAN'T ADMIT IT, YOU IDIOT *grmbl*" :-D Ah, good old times)

The IGS debates are beautiful reflections of that: The Amarr consistently deny any such incursions, despite any evidence. Of course those raids exist, but they wouldn't admit to them.

It's a very nice story background. All empires have these "things they do but won't admit to." I'm pretty sure there are plenty in the Gal/Cal conflict, too, and not just the spy towers the Federation puts up in the Republic :-)

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Bible fiiiiight! Can someone please explain the relevance of proving unequivocally the amarr slave people outside their borders? Also, was that the point of this thread?

[Akrasjel Lanate]

Shooking new 

[Arkady Sadik]

Bible fiiiiight! Can someone please explain the relevance of proving unequivocally the amarr slave people outside their borders? Also, was that the point of this thread?

I took it as a discussion on what PF says about certain activities in the fictional world in which our characters interact. Such discussions are useful to be able to interact with each other, as they establish a common expectation of the world the characters interact in.

For example, if two characters meet for a discussion, one assumes that it's common knowledge and widely accepted that the Amarr raid other empires for slaves, and the other assumes that's completely wrong and everyone knows that the Amarr do not raid other empires, all you will end up with is two players being upset about the other player ignoring PF. Having an OOC discussion that gives a few evidences on what the intended situation in the game world likely looks like, and what the "common knowledge" of the average capsuleer would be, brings everyone on the same page, and enables them to actually enjoy the RP interaction.

But there's so much hostility and "you are doing it wrong" in this thread that I'll bow out now.

[Louella Dougans]

level 5 missions are one of the bigger examples of schrodinger's PF.

stuff that only exists once people observe it (and post on forums about it), and otherwise doesn't exist.

there's a whole lot of it, and it can get really annoying.

like, a mission that I saw for the first time recently, I posted about it, and some other people said it was old, and they'd seen it a couple years before or so.

it means that they'd been playing with one set of information about the cultures of eve, and I'd been playing with a different set.

so, the discussions about "that's not how the federation works" or whatever, simply don't work, because of this effect, leading to accusations that player X is being ludicrously obstinate, or whatever.

it makes me

[Hamish Grayson]

Yea Louella, Eve lore is like that.   Worse than the lvl 5 missions are the old news articles that don't show up in the news articles.   Someone who started as early as 2007 is going to have a different view of the game world than someone from who started 2004.     There are deleted missions, missing news articles and even live events that built my world view and there is not much I can do when somebody says 'citation needed.'   Meh.

[Alain Colcer]

I remember asking around if we could approach CCP to do a "2nd pass" over mission storyline info after their own workgroup has released the material for go-live.

Voluntary work to check on the context of the mission and how it compares to existing and already public PF.

I know it would cause some level of arguing, but the above example posted by Julianus could be described in a much more believable context than it is currently.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Bible fiiiiight! Can someone please explain the relevance of proving unequivocally the amarr slave people outside their borders? Also, was that the point of this thread?

I took it as a discussion on what PF says about certain activities in the fictional world in which our characters interact. Such discussions are useful to be able to interact with each other, as they establish a common expectation of the world the characters interact in.

For example, if two characters meet for a discussion, one assumes that it's common knowledge and widely accepted that the Amarr raid other empires for slaves, and the other assumes that's completely wrong and everyone knows that the Amarr do not raid other empires, all you will end up with is two players being upset about the other player ignoring PF. Having an OOC discussion that gives a few evidences on what the intended situation in the game world likely looks like, and what the "common knowledge" of the average capsuleer would be, brings everyone on the same page, and enables them to actually enjoy the RP interaction.

But there's so much hostility and "you are doing it wrong" in this thread that I'll bow out now.

In a universe with lots of fictional gaps and contradictions, trying to find some common ground is going to be hard to find when one side is trying to win by telling the other they are doing it wrong and the other says the data is inaccurate because the info is opinion-based. Trying to win ic debates oocly seems pretty silly to me. Isn't there room for all kinds of exceptions?

[Senn Typhos]

Even if we had a definitive compilation of all the PF included in missions, and it was all entirely accurate and accredited by CCP in some manner of New Eden Encyclopedia, we still wouldn't agree on it.

No one likes having their narrative changed. It's why people still debate on which foreign people discovered the Americas first.

[Hamish Grayson]

When becomes appearent that another player has a different understanding of New Eden than I do, I usually have Hamish smile politely and excuse himself from the conversation.   Players using characters to debate PF leads to weirdness.       

[Matariki Rain]

When becomes appearent that another player has a different understanding of New Eden than I do, I usually have Hamish smile politely and excuse himself from the conversation.   Players using characters to debate PF leads to weirdness.     

Which I think is why some people were trying to discuss it here, OOC, so there was a better chance that IC play would be happening in a shared-enough consensual hallucination.

[Chell Charon]

Seems I'll need to explain the players thinking here.

I think the slavery case for the Amarrians is pretty straight forward. Yes they do it. Anybody who succeeds in bringing large amounts of lower generation slaves to the market will make mint. -Not only in isk, but power.

However currently the powers that be frown on this. It is even politically wise for them to see that those with the 'lean and hungry' look be forced to take risks far beyond the normal scope of Holders, clergy and merchants.

Getting caught is same as being unworthy in some measure (Intelligence, power or just luck). So anybody who gets caught will be treated as a rogue, likely to full measure of the law. (Unless they can circumvent it.)

Despite that, this level five mission brief reads as a prejudiced one. Taking what our mission agents say as truth -and nothing but- OOC or IC is going to lead to trouble. OOC headaches and IC insanely different views of the world depending on where you do missions. Though IC that's ok isn't it and actually something to support.

It does tell how some of the Gallante are likely to see and react to any Amarrian operation within Gallante space. It also tells us that at least some Amarrians are investing in foreign corporations. (Or flat out buyin such.) Cause if that corporation was clearly Amarrian, they would not have gotten the job in the first place.

So. There are plenty of Amarrian people of different classes who have turned to 'illegal slave taking' in order to gain money and power back in Amarr. And that there are plenty of racist Gallanteans who will assume worst of any Amarrian.  What else is new? 

What I am trying to point out here is that the mission brief itself is written in such a way as to bring up, both the horrid reputation of Amarrians and the lack of facts on what the Amarrian owned corporation is actually doing.

[Hamish Grayson]

It's gone now, but there was once a mission handed out by the Caldari Navy to kill a Amarrian slave raiders going for Caldari slaves.