Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Katrina Oniseki on 27 Apr 2013, 21:56
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Originally envisioned by Herko in the fiction "Four Questions (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Four_questions)", Kresh has become an integral part of Caldari RP. There are many usages of it. I'd like to compile all possible uses of the plant and a generally accepted set of lore for the plant here in this OP. I need your help to do this.
Before we begin, I'd like to request that we stay on topic and only post the uses or interpretations of how it works. This is not a thread for debating how it affects your RP, or if it's good or bad, too exclusive or campy, or what it means for the RP community. This is just a thread for compiling the community accepted lore.
Yes, kresh, like the tree so abundant in Caldari Prime. The liquor is made by fermenting the red grapes in much the same way as many other beverages.
So Kresh is a tree. Possibly a deciduous tree, based on the mention of grapes, though grapes could just be another word for berries. It may be a conifer, with needles and woody cones. That would be far more fitting for the harsh cold climates of Caldari Prime, and the 'grapes' are actually small berries instead of the wine grapes we're thinking of.
He clearly states that the grapes are used to form a liquor... so we know that hak'len liquor is one of the two primary forms of Kresh drink. So that is one of the primary forms. Grapes used to form a liquor.
The change of name… you see, kresh is deeply rooted in Caldari lore. The origin of the liquor is lost in time, but even before the liquor came the tea, which goes by the same name. Some say its our oldest tradition, the only one remaining from our ancient past. Whatever the case, it’s made with the leafs of kresh, and only those trained in the art can prepare it. In the wrong amounts, its poisonous. Death in a hot cup.
Again, a reference to leaves instead of needles. This more strongly implies that the Kresh tree is not a conifer. These leaves are used in the hak'len tea. Two drinks by the same name, with the tea being the oldest form of it. By his wording, he suggests that the tea is even more poisonous than the liquor, which would make sense.
It’s drank only in three occasions. You taste it first along with your class mates when you turn 14, as a sign of leaving childhood behind. Yes, of course I drank it, the same as every Caldari you know, the ones raised inside the State at least. Can’t be described… The taste of mortality, if you wish. We drink it at funerals, as a reminder of the thin line we will all soon cross … And it is drank at the Meetings of Reasoning.
Three uses for the tea. Coming of age drink, funeral drink, and Meetings of Reasoning. The tea is the ceremonial version of the drink. This leaves the liquor as the possibly less ceremonial version.
Why are you so pale? Trouble breathing? Well… hak’len will do that to you, my friend. Paralize (sic) your nervous system and choke you to death.
Now we get to the toxic effects of the Kresh. Kresh appears to be paralytic in nature, with the primary end result being respiratory failure and death by asphyxiation. I'm not a toxicologist, but should we assume that Kresh is a neurotoxin since it is directly stated that it affects the nervous system? Perhaps similar to anatoxin-a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoxin-a)?
Statistics
Source: Kresh Tree; possibly deciduous, broad leaves, fruit bearing.
Drinks: Liquor, Tea
Toxic Effects: Paralysis, CNS failure?, respiratory failure
Toxic Dosage: Two to three cups(?) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_(unit)) brewed tea. We could use some magic math on how much of the toxin may be present in those three cups?
Unofficial uses?
There have been a number of other drinks made using Kresh. We have the Suvala Brand of Kresh Vodka, and I think I've seen a kresh 'milk' out there somewhere, as well as a sweetened syrup. Unknown how these are made or what their toxicity levels are.
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If this is the poison used in the Tea Maker Ceremony, the poison (as I understand it) has to be marginally survivable-- it's an ordeal poison, designed to measure the worth of the one who drinks it in the eyes of the Maker.
... Unless the Ceremony really is just an execution and the "let's see whether any higher power thinks you should live" bit is analogous to saying, "Let's see whether God unties this noose."
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Current Caldari use of kresh seemed to me more or less analogous to fugu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu); something you eat for the charm of tradition, or plain flirting with death.
If this is the poison used in the Tea Maker Ceremony, the poison (as I understand it) has to be marginally survivable-- it's an ordeal poison, designed to measure the worth of the one who drinks it in the eyes of the Maker.
... Unless the Ceremony really is just an execution and the "let's see whether any higher power thinks you should live" bit is analogous to saying, "Let's see whether God unties this noose."
The lethality of poison lies in the dosage. One could imagine that ceremonial tea brewed by halfheartedly dipping some ancient Kresh root shavings someone found in the back of the cupboard would barely make your tongue tingle, while it's a straight-up execution tool if good, strong, and made from fresh kresh. So, in ancient times, drinking the tea they made was a significant mark of trust in your underlings or associates; and on the Morning of Reason, it was a way to legitimize a plain old liquidation.
I'm reminded of the way divination and portents were used by his underlings as a roundabout way of telling the Chinese emperor how well he was doing -- since telling him to his face was obviously out of the question. Perhaps the Raata emperors of old were occasionally thinking to themselves, "hot dang, I could barely feel my toes after this month's ceremonial tea. Maybe I should ease up on the taxes a bit."
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If this is the poison used in the Tea Maker Ceremony, the poison (as I understand it) has to be marginally survivable-- it's an ordeal poison, designed to measure the worth of the one who drinks it in the eyes of the Maker.
... Unless the Ceremony really is just an execution and the "let's see whether any higher power thinks you should live" bit is analogous to saying, "Let's see whether God unties this noose."
As I understood it, Ethnic Caldari are resistant but not immune to the Kresh poison. While three cups would outright kill a Gallente or Brutor or Khanid, it might only cause severe illness (vomiting, shock, fever.. etc) in a Civire or Deteis. Higher doses would still be fatal.
Mixed bloodlines would severely weaken the resistance to Kresh poison, which could explain the Morning of Reasoning just before the outbreak of the Caldari-Gallente war. Those CEOs which most strongly opposed seccession were also those CEOs with mixed bloodlines, having intermarried with the Gallente for generations. They are also the ones who succumbed and died to the high dosage of Kresh served at the Meeting. The pureblood Caldari CEOs walked away from the table and probably spent a week in the infirmary... but they survived, and they went to war.
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Or, taking Herko's words, "Only those trained in the art can prepare it. In the wrong amounts, its poisonous. Death in a hot cup." So more like false morel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromitra_esculenta). That mushroom is, as far as I am aware, the only one catalogued locally as "delicious; deadly; must be prepared".
As such, we know that hak'len tea is nearly safe to drink, at least to Caldari Prime natives, since nearly every Caldari drinks some in a ceremonial context. This leaves a few possible views on the Tea Maker Ceremony (when done as in the Morning of Reasoning):
One might be a game of chicken. Knowing that you might die means those who cannot or will not commit do not come. They are disgraced, and those present will decide for them. This, of course, does not exclude the other angles.
Second is a test of resistance to kresh toxin that may, in some dose, be intentionally left in the drink.
Third is selective poisoning. Either only those meant to die are made to drink the cup, or then the Tea Makes brews or serves the kresh tea differently for each participant such that only those selected to die will. Surviving the ordeal is a mark of supernatural favour.
In order to implement the selectiveness, there are several options. The most obvious one is to provide several pots of tea, some of which are poisonous and some are not. A less obvious one would be one that uses subtle changes in chemistry to achieve the desired effect, the key being that the Tea Maker is able to make the poisonous tea and the safe tea in several different ways. (Some Tea Makers probably know only a few ways - most of them perhaps only one way, and that to make safe tea.) These depend on the properties of the toxin, including but not limited to it solving into water slowly, or it needing a specific temperature to be extracted from the leaves, or it evaporating from the tea above certain temperature, or the molecule disintegrating above specific temperature. Or then only leaves picked at the specific time of the year are especially dangerous or safe to use. Or a combination of all the above.
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I wonder what Herko would think about the fact that his works are still debated and discussed even today.
Mind you, I think it's completely right that they are...
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I wonder what Herko would think about the fact that his works are still debated and discussed even today.
I believe he commented on that when someone tracked him down for an EON article a couple of years ago.
(Summary from memory, since my copy is half a world away: Herko is over EVE. Enjoyed it while he did it, but has moved on.)
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I guess we could probably add that this is used in execution for the honored? It seems highly probable that this is what Yanala drank in the end. (If they followed real world traditions, it would've been poisonous wine)
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I belive the tea would be offered as an honourable alternative to criminal proceedings and an execution.
I hadn't heard that Admiral Yanala was actually dead, though. I hadn't heard anything from her since the destruction of CNS Shiigeru.
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I belive the tea would be offered as an honourable alternative to criminal proceedings and an execution.
I hadn't heard that Admiral Yanala was actually dead, though. I hadn't heard anything from her since the destruction of CNS Shiigeru.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falling_Skies_%28Chronicle%29
It's near the end.
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That doesn't mean -we- know about it IC.
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Damn. I said that she deliberately refused to fire the Oblivion.
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Based on the story and my own (limited) understanding of how neurotoxins and especially paralytics work, I have a quibble with the notion that those who drink kresh tea suffer lasting ill effect.
Neurotoxins, by nature and definition, go after the nervous system. They do not typically (or at least necessarily) attack other types of flesh.
This goes double for paralytics. You can suffer fatal levels of shellfish toxin poisoning, for example, and come through the experience unscathed so long as somebody or something keeps breathing on your behalf.
This also has major impact on its usefulness as an ordeal poison if the Tea Maker Ceremony is intended to have any significant component of this type. Surviving an ordeal poison should constitute major vindication-- the equivalent of surviving trial by combat. IT SHOULD NOT RESULT IN LASTING INJURY, which is inappropriate "punishment" for one who has been proved innocent just by surviving. You survive, and are vindicated, or you die, and are condemned. There is no middle ground.
If kresh toxin is a paralytic, it need not cause any lasting injury at all (aside from brain damage through oxygen deprivation, perhaps).
If kresh toxin is a neurotoxin, it need not cause any other type of tissue damage, but could cause enduring neurological troubles.
If kresh toxin causes lasting physical injury including gastrointestinal distress or neurological damage, it is not an ordeal poison in any significant sense. This is important partly because it means that surviving kresh is a seriously backhanded miracle, and also because you end up scarring even the vindicated. It's a lousy choice for a trial, and a doubtful choice for executions because it's apparently survivable.
As a traditional method for much of anything, the final interpretation kind of bites, folks. I wouldn't give it to my worst enemy, if only because he might survive it in a horribly distorted state that would oblige him to seek elaborate revenge.
Make it an execution, and invariably fatal; or, make it an ordeal poison, and it lets you off clean if you live.
Other outcomes strike me as too messy to form the foundation of a lasting tradition.
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If kresh toxin causes lasting physical injury including gastrointestinal distress or neurological damage, it is not an ordeal poison in any significant sense.
I know I've previously said that it does (with those specific words no less) either IC, OOC, or both. After reading what you had to say on it, I agree with you now in that it makes no sense. So, in order to help remove any improper references to that, can you point me to where I said it, assuming it's not simply in chat logs? I want to delete that. :x
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Can someone explain the enzyme to me? The one that allows non-Caldari to drink Kresh.
I also assume it would allow regular Caldari to up their resistance, so would that mean one could 'cheat' a tea maker ceremony?
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Can someone explain the enzyme to me? The one that allows non-Caldari to drink Kresh.
I also assume it would allow regular Caldari to up their resistance, so would that mean one could 'cheat' a tea maker ceremony?
As far as I know, that one is just used by players who want to ignore the ethnic limitations and drink Kresh stuff. It's not ever been mentioned by either Herko or CCP. Its use is generally tolerated among Caldari players because to do otherwise would be saying 'urdoinitrong'.
Whether or not we as players respect others' freedom to use the enzyme in their RP has no bearing on how our characters will respond to it. Caldari characters are likely to regard those using the enzyme with a significant measure of disdain. Kresh is one of those ancient symbols of Caldari culture's insular and nearly xenophobic tendencies. Using a cheat code to get past it isn't going to be looked on well.
As an example, this is why the rules of the I-RED Lounge are what they are. If you're not Deteis or Civire, you don't get to drink Kresh there. Don't bother showing us your enzymes.
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Guilty of using it to allow non-Caldari Kirjuun to have their traditional Kresh shot upon joining.
It wouldn't necessarily bolster the immunity of a regular, healthy, Caldari. The enzyme might have a maximum 'soak' threshold.
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I know I've previously said that it does (with those specific words no less) either IC, OOC, or both. After reading what you had to say on it, I agree with you now in that it makes no sense. So, in order to help remove any improper references to that, can you point me to where I said it, assuming it's not simply in chat logs? I want to delete that. :x
The only time I heard you mention it was in The Summit a few days ago. I don't even have the logs (DUST).
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I know I've previously said that it does (with those specific words no less) either IC, OOC, or both. After reading what you had to say on it, I agree with you now in that it makes no sense. So, in order to help remove any improper references to that, can you point me to where I said it, assuming it's not simply in chat logs? I want to delete that. :x
The only time I heard you mention it was in The Summit a few days ago. I don't even have the logs (DUST).
Disregard it then.
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Does someone has PF sources where Kresh or Tea is mentionned ?
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Locked articles in Evelopedia are CCP curated "Prime Fiction"
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tea_Maker_Ceremony
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tea
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kresh_trees
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cold_Wind_%28Chronicle%29
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality
Also notable that properly made kresh tea is not deadly to Caldari. Kresh tea made to kill does kill even Caldari. Even non-Caldari might survive a cup, as long as it is made correctly and isn't too strong? This, of course, might be also looked down on by actual Caldari to not really "taste death".
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I know I've previously said that it does (with those specific words no less) either IC, OOC, or both. After reading what you had to say on it, I agree with you now in that it makes no sense. So, in order to help remove any improper references to that, can you point me to where I said it, assuming it's not simply in chat logs? I want to delete that. :x
The only time I heard you mention it was in The Summit a few days ago. I don't even have the logs (DUST).
Disregard it then.
Consider it done. ;)
One other thing I'm kind of "hrrrrm" -ing about is the relationship between the Achura and Kresh. The stuff seems to be specific to the ethnic Caldari; perhaps it's one of the handful of things that continues to stand between the average Achur and full membership in State society? Considering that the bloodlines have spiritual differences in addition to the Achura literally being from another planet, it would seem to be a fairly natural fault line with few big, nasty negative consequences unless an Achur wants to step off the sidelines in a Caldari spiritual matter.
Probably, the Caldari just keep to their traditions, the Achura keep to their own, and the lethal effects of Kresh on an Achur provides further cause for even the most zealous Caldari not to try and convert the neighbors.
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I know I've previously said that it does (with those specific words no less) either IC, OOC, or both. After reading what you had to say on it, I agree with you now in that it makes no sense. So, in order to help remove any improper references to that, can you point me to where I said it, assuming it's not simply in chat logs? I want to delete that. :x
The only time I heard you mention it was in The Summit a few days ago. I don't even have the logs (DUST).
Disregard it then.
Consider it done. ;)
One other thing I'm kind of "hrrrrm" -ing about is the relationship between the Achura and Kresh. The stuff seems to be specific to the ethnic Caldari; perhaps it's one of the handful of things that continues to stand between the average Achur and full membership in State society? Considering that the bloodlines have spiritual differences in addition to the Achura literally being from another planet, it would seem to be a fairly natural fault line with few big, nasty negative consequences unless an Achur wants to step off the sidelines in a Caldari spiritual matter.
Probably, the Caldari just keep to their traditions, the Achura keep to their own, and the lethal effects of Kresh on an Achur provides further cause for even the most zealous Caldari not to try and convert the neighbors.
It also introduces a rather morbid reality that if an Achur is given the tea, he will presumably never survive the odeal. Guaranteed death.
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It also introduces a rather morbid reality that if an Achur is given the tea, he will presumably never survive the odeal. Guaranteed death.
... Which probably suggests a fairly bright-line understanding in Caldari culture about how the Tea Maker is to be applied.
The Caldari are a very traditionalist, isolationist culture. They are, however, practical to an arguable fault. I don't see them perceiving foreigners as unworthy of surviving just by dint of being foreign; kresh, then, is probably normally reserved for use on ethnic Caldari who follow the Way of the Winds (even the name "Tea Maker" invokes the Maker-- it's a religious ceremony). Non-Caldari who follow the Way are probably a gray area: the ceremony can technically be invoked, but all involved will know full well that it's murder by another name, an honorless move.
Which would not be to say that it's never done, of course.
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It also introduces a rather morbid reality that if an Achur is given the tea, he will presumably never survive the odeal. Guaranteed death.
... Which probably suggests a fairly bright-line understanding in Caldari culture about how the Tea Maker is to be applied.
The Caldari are a very traditionalist, isolationist culture. They are, however, practical to an arguable fault. I don't see them perceiving foreigners as unworthy of surviving just by dint of being foreign; kresh, then, is probably normally reserved for use on ethnic Caldari who follow the Way of the Winds (even the name "Tea Maker" invokes the Maker-- it's a religious ceremony). Non-Caldari who follow the Way are probably a gray area: the ceremony can technically be invoked, but all involved will know full well that it's murder by another name, an honorless move.
Which would not be to say that it's never done, of course.
Interesting. I'm not quite sure what to make of that just yet.
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It does now appear that CCP is canonizing the kresh quasi-canon through hak'len tea (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/breaking-news-yanala-forced-into-tea-maker-ceremony/).
It does now also appear to be an unambiguous paralytic-- death by respiratory failure. However, something that's been lurking in the background: it's not an ordeal poison; innocence or guilt is not what's being tested for.
Survival indicates divine favor. It's an execution to all but the specially blessed.
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As I understood it, Ethnic Caldari are resistant but not immune to the Kresh poison. While three cups would outright kill a Gallente or Brutor or Khanid, it might only cause severe illness (vomiting, shock, fever.. etc) in a Civire or Deteis. Higher doses would still be fatal.
Just had to mention Brutor hmm? Getting Makkal he abutting me wasn't enough :'(
LOL
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As I understood it, Ethnic Caldari are resistant but not immune to the Kresh poison. While three cups would outright kill a Gallente or Brutor or Khanid, it might only cause severe illness (vomiting, shock, fever.. etc) in a Civire or Deteis. Higher doses would still be fatal.
Just had to mention Brutor hmm? Getting Makkal he abutting me wasn't enough :'(
LOL
It was delivered with love, no doubt.
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I (and Aya) found it incredibly endearing. That is a friend you can trust!
Good thing too, because the whole Kresh enzyme thing had outlived itself for Aya.
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I (and Aya) found it incredibly endearing. That is a friend you can trust!
Good thing too, because the whole Kresh enzyme thing had outlived itself for Aya.
I too immediately fell in love with Makkal the character upon seeing that.
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I have never heard it / read it mentioned that Hak'len in the concentrations used for the regular tea/liquor is toxic to Caldari AT ALL. Since the resistance to it was built up because it was one of the few green things available during wintertime on Home (and therefore found its way into the diet) I find it hard to believe that it remains toxic to ethnic Caldari in anything but truly heroic doses.
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So, what do they add in their teacups for them to be lethal for the Ceremony ?
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My guess is that it's the difference between eating blowfish properly versus improperly prepared.
Fugu, or blowfish, is a meat that must be very carefully prepared: the slightest nick on the fish's liver in the process of removing it renders the whole fish deadly toxic. For this reason it is only to be prepared by a licensed fish surgeon.
I do not know the truth of this, but I've heard it claimed that the same blowfish venom that the liver contains also permeates the meat-- just in a very low concentration. It is this that is said to make the diner's lips and gums tingle. I've also heard it suggested that the fugu, itself, is unremarkable in flavor-- that it is only the special zest of mortality that delights a diner's palate.
This is a phenomenon I can really see the Caldari getting behind, especially if the low doses in properly-prepared hak'len tea or liquor are deadly to most other ethnicities in much smaller quantities-- being able to drink without fear is proof of the hardships a drinker's ancestors endured and overcame.
Pieter, I'd think that the Caldari would not need to be more than, say, ten or twenty times more resistant to the stuff than the average Gallentean or Achur in order to have functional immunity as long as the drink is properly prepared. Make it wrong, toxin level skyrockets, you find yourself having trouble drawing breath whoever you may be because you're now drinking a good thousand times the concentration.
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As for the "need to eat the only green thing", I present you [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromitra_esculenta]gyromitra esculenta[/url], the only mushroom listed on local guides as "delicious, deadly, needs to be prepared".
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My guess is that it's the difference between eating blowfish properly versus improperly prepared.
Fugu, or blowfish, is a meat that must be very carefully prepared: the slightest nick on the fish's liver in the process of removing it renders the whole fish deadly toxic. For this reason it is only to be prepared by a licensed fish surgeon.
I do not know the truth of this, but I've heard it claimed that the same blowfish venom that the liver contains also permeates the meat-- just in a very low concentration. It is this that is said to make the diner's lips and gums tingle. I've also heard it suggested that the fugu, itself, is unremarkable in flavor-- that it is only the special zest of mortality that delights a diner's palate.
This is a phenomenon I can really see the Caldari getting behind, especially if the low doses in properly-prepared hak'len tea or liquor are deadly to most other ethnicities in much smaller quantities-- being able to drink without fear is proof of the hardships a drinker's ancestors endured and overcame.
Pieter, I'd think that the Caldari would not need to be more than, say, ten or twenty times more resistant to the stuff than the average Gallentean or Achur in order to have functional immunity as long as the drink is properly prepared. Make it wrong, toxin level skyrockets, you find yourself having trouble drawing breath whoever you may be because you're now drinking a good thousand times the concentration.
Started reading your post and was confused where you were going with it, but I like where you went with it. :)
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This needs to come to some sort of consensus, I want to do dangerous games of drinking poisonous drink while staring down the opponent.
Sounds like a great way to settle an argument IC without fists. [which no one will play with me :'( ]
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This needs to come to some sort of consensus, I want to do dangerous games of drinking poisonous drink while staring down the opponent.
Sounds like a great way to settle an argument IC without fists. [which no one will play with me :'( ]
Ha. Well, that's one way to drink someone under the table. Last one to be put on a respirator wins?
So far what we seem to have:
* Hak'len toxin is a natural paralytic. Hak'len toxicity induces death by paralysis-induced respiratory failure, similar to real-life shellfish toxin. It appears to have no other effect.
* Ethnic Caldari have some unspecified, but relatively high, resistance to the toxin, probably based on many centuries of contact (people with low resistance have tended to get weeded out of the gene pool after having one drink too many). Other ethnicities can still survive low concentrations, but drinking too much or too fast is still lethal.
* (just my opinion) Probably the natural resistance is based on tolerance (like a kingsnake's resistance to rattlesnake venom) rather than on digestive enzymes. It seems pretty reliable, where the possibility of getting your digestive chemistry screwed up (by an ulcer, maybe?) would seem to make the enzymes less so. However, there's no reason that resistance can't be fortified with a bit of biotech knowhow.
* Hak'len liquor is made from kresh grapes. It is used recreationally. Toxin level: low.
* Hak'len tea is made from kresh leaves. It is used for coming of age rituals, funerals ... and executions of the highly-placed. Toxin level: low (properly prepared) or, probably, extreme (improperly prepared).
* There's been a lot more said of the history and such than of the flavor. Maybe that's something else to try and reach consensus on?
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* There's been a lot more said of the history and such than of the flavor. Maybe that's something else to try and reach consensus on?
I've always RP'd that it is relatively bitter and unpalatable. Sweetened with additives, it can be easier to take, but I've never roleplayed it as something 'enjoyable' per se.
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This needs to come to some sort of consensus, I want to do dangerous games of drinking poisonous drink while staring down the opponent.
Sounds like a great way to settle an argument IC without fists. [which no one will play with me :'( ]
Ha. Well, that's one way to drink someone under the table. Last one to be put on a respirator wins?
So far what we seem to have:
* Hak'len toxin is a natural paralytic. Hak'len toxicity induces death by paralysis-induced respiratory failure, similar to real-life shellfish toxin. It appears to have no other effect.
* Ethnic Caldari have some unspecified, but relatively high, resistance to the toxin, probably based on many centuries of contact (people with low resistance have tended to get weeded out of the gene pool after having one drink too many). Other ethnicities can still survive low concentrations, but drinking too much or too fast is still lethal.
* (just my opinion) Probably the natural resistance is based on tolerance (like a kingsnake's resistance to rattlesnake venom) rather than on digestive enzymes. It seems pretty reliable, where getting your digestive chemistry screwed up (by an ulcer, maybe?) would seem less so. However, there's no reason that resistance can't be fortified with a bit of biotech knowhow.
* Hak'len liquor is made from kresh grapes. It is used recreationally. Toxin level: low.
* Hak'len tea is made from kresh leaves. It is used for coming of age rituals, funerals ... and executions of the highly-placed. Toxin level: low (properly prepared) or, probably, extreme (improperly prepared).
* There's been a lot more said of the history and such than of the flavor. Maybe that's something else to try and reach consensus on?
So for executions, it is improperly prepared then.
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So for executions, it is improperly prepared then.
Maybe there is a traditional 'poisonous' preparation?
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So for executions, it is improperly prepared then.
Exactly.
Maybe there is a traditional 'poisonous' preparation?
Probably it's a highly-ritualized version of doing it wrong-- ritually skipping a certain specific step.
Now, making tea is, in general, one of the simplest ways to prepare much of anything. Scalding water is either strained through fresh or dried leaves or has same dumped into it. It's hard to get wrong.
... Which means that "doing it wrong" must be something interesting. Thoughts:
* It can't just be fresh versus dried; that's too hard to screw up.
* If the poison works like the tannin in black tea, allowing the leaves to remain in contact with the water for very long turns it deadly. To make it properly, the scalding water is poured through a cloth (NOT METAL-- the holes have to be too small for bits of leaf to pass through) strainer, which probably contains large chunks of shredded, dried leaf. Properly prepared, the tea is pale; improperly prepared, it might be dark, and may have bits of kresh leaf floating in it.
* If the above is the way it works, I'd expect typical, minor mispreparations to usually be pale but to have leaf fragments-- the one warning you get. Toxicity would be closer to human tolerance, if not necessarily much more survivable (does it really matter whether the muscles you breathe with are just paralyzed or really, really paralyzed?). I'd expect purposeful ones to be darker (water added directly to a teapot of dried leaves in the manner of the black tea that comes to your table when you're having a dim sum lunch), and also more toxic.
* If the poison is flavorless, even a ritual cup of deadly hak'len tea need not be a bitter draught-- in fact, it might even be infamously sweet.
* Alternatively, part of preparation might be dissolving out the poison. This likely involves soaking the dried leaves in something prior to making the tea-- brine, perhaps, or vinegar. This, however, would flavor the tea and would likely result in commercially available "processed" kresh leaves that have had the toxin extracted prior to packaging. It would also possibly change the flavor, making properly prepared hak'len tea a little sour or salty, or something of the sort. It would also probably dull the flavor somewhat. Improper preparation, in this case, would probably be about the same color but taste a little different.
* As another alternative, the poison might reside in only certain parts of the leaf, which would need to be carefully removed. I'd guess poison might be concentrated in the central vein, stem, whatever the hell a botanist would call that bit of the leaf that forms ye olde main road / structural support. This has to be carefully removed, like a blowfish liver. Kresh leaves in this event are probably used fresh, not dried (otherwise the leaf could be carefully cut and inspected prior to drying), and trimming out the central stem of each leaf is part of the preparation process; no fragment must remain. Intentionally toxic tea would be made with the whole leaf.
Upon reflection, I think I like that last one best. Thoughts?
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The last one times ten.
Scalpels, botanists, and inspections...
That is how a true Caldari makes tea.
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Yeah, the last seems more likely. Possibly with a touch of the second-to-last. That might give you 2 options - a universally fatal way, and a (perhaps traditional, but now virtually unused?) actual trial by poison that is in theory survivable for at least some Caldari.
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* As another alternative, the poison might reside in only certain parts of the leaf, which would need to be carefully removed. I'd guess poison might be concentrated in the central vein, stem, whatever the hell a botanist would call that bit of the leaf that forms ye olde main road / structural support. This has to be carefully removed, like a blowfish liver. Kresh leaves in this event are probably used fresh, not dried (otherwise the leaf could be carefully cut and inspected prior to drying), and trimming out the central stem of each leaf is part of the preparation process; no fragment must remain. Intentionally toxic tea would be made with the whole leaf.
From my limited understanding of plant structures, what chemicals resides in the midrib (that primary center vein) would also reside in the veins (the smaller branches). This would make removal of the toxin even more difficult, with varying levels of toxin remaining per leaf when finished. There may be mystical methods and communing with the Ancestors and Winds to determine whether each vein of each leaf should be removed or not, resulting in a sort of artistic removal of some but not all poison veins of the leaf. The more and larger veins remain, the more toxin.
Keep in mind that these veins eventually become microscopic in size, just like blood capillaries. It is impossible to remove all of them by hand without completely destroying the leaf itself. Thus, no matter what you do... some toxin will remain, as intended.
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Well, it could also be something like young vs old leaves - and part of what makes a Tea Maker is the ability to tell the difference.
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From my limited understanding of plant structures, what chemicals resides in the midrib (that primary center vein) would also reside in the veins (the smaller branches). This would make removal of the toxin even more difficult, with varying levels of toxin remaining per leaf when finished. There may be mystical methods and communing with the Ancestors and Winds to determine whether each vein of each leaf should be removed or not, resulting in a sort of artistic removal of some but not all poison veins of the leaf. The more and larger veins remain, the more toxin.
Keep in mind that these veins eventually become microscopic in size, just like blood capillaries. It is impossible to remove all of them by hand without completely destroying the leaf itself. Thus, no matter what you do... some toxin will remain, as intended.
Ah-- good point. This would have the additional merit of explaining why the tea is drunk rarely-- it's a pain in the ass to make it right.
I suspect the Caldari have it down to something of a science by now, rather than an art; the possibility of inadvertently doing in your firstborn at a coming-of-age ceremony seems like a threat that would encourage great care.
Well, it could also be something like young vs old leaves - and part of what makes a Tea Maker is the ability to tell the difference.
Could be, but supposing your coming-of-age ceremony or funeral happens late in the season? Remember that the Caldari haven't always had space travel or even very good planetary transportation.
Yeah, the last seems more likely. Possibly with a touch of the second-to-last. That might give you 2 options - a universally fatal way, and a (perhaps traditional, but now virtually unused?) actual trial by poison that is in theory survivable for at least some Caldari.
Intriguing option. Perhaps the Tea Maker Ceremony hasn't always been this reliably fatal? You could see a random series of really awful people with high resistances repeatedly surviving their ordeals and going on to commit further atrocities until somebody finally says, "Fine. Let's see whether the Maker thinks you ought to survive THIS, bub."
Boom. New traditional (and much less survivable) recipe.
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Is it something you can force on a superior several times?
I'd think it would be a one-shot deal.
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THE FORGE - Reports have surfaced that CPD Security Director, Tivalo Okkinen, has been found dead in his home with his mouth stuffed full of raw Kresh leaves. No hak'len cups or residue have been found on the scene, leading investigators to assume this was an act of murder, rather than a legitimate Tea Ceremony.
The Tea Maker's Commission has issued a statement condemning the use of Kresh in this manner, and has denied any knowledge or responsibility of the attack. Despite this, top members of the Commission have been seen speaking with investigators, and at least one has voluntarily submitted himself for detainment and further questioning. No charges have been announced, nor has a name of the detained been released.
A Scope employee traveling within the State on a press visa has also been arrested on charges of Gross Disrespect for commenting negatively on the Tea Maker Ceremony. His statement, which has been censored, drew parallels between the sacred Ceremony and illegal vigilantism. The Scope has declined to comment.
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I like it. Do you have a link to the original? :D
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I like it. Do you have a link to the original? :D
I wrote it. >.>
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Is it something you can force on a superior several times?
I'd think it would be a one-shot deal.
Since surviving it is (these days) a sign of divine favor, I'd agree. However, if it was used as an ordeal poison back in the day, it would be more like putting on a trial: you get one per criminal incident (however many crimes that incident may have entailed).
Say you've got a local guy of high rank (a psychopath, for ease of reference) whose family has a long and proud history of strong resistance to kresh toxin. He just murdered his uncle. He demands trial by hak'len tea.
People maybe grumble a bit that he has an unfair advantage, but tradition is tradition, so they put him to the test, and lo and behold he survives. He then goes on to rob the town trader. Trial by tea. And to stab his neighbor in the lung, who then expires after lingering for two agonizing weeks. Trial by tea. And to rape an eleven-year-old girl. Trial by tea.
By this time, you can see where somebody would start thinking they ought to increase the concentration. By the time he's fled town to escape the mob with pitchforks, become leader of a pack of marauding bandits, slaughtered entire clans apparently for the fun of it, carved a bloody swath across the countryside, kidnapped two members of the local royalty and returned them both in installments after the ransom was paid, and made a good attempt at uniting the region's bandit tribes under his rule and using them to establish himself as a de facto tyrant ...
... by that time, you can see how, when he's finally captured under circumstances so public that you can't very well just kill him (gotta make a good show of it), and he once again demands an ordeal trial by hak'len tea ...
... you can see how somebody decides, "All right, asshole, let's see you survive THIS."
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You got me excited about the
revenge murdering vigilante justice against the CPD starting. Damn you!
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You got me excited about the revenge murdering vigilante justice against the CPD starting. Damn you!
This pretty much. I honestly though it was a news-post and was going to ask for a link :oops:
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* As another alternative, the poison might reside in only certain parts of the leaf, which would need to be carefully removed. I'd guess poison might be concentrated in the central vein, stem, whatever the hell a botanist would call that bit of the leaf that forms ye olde main road / structural support. This has to be carefully removed, like a blowfish liver. Kresh leaves in this event are probably used fresh, not dried (otherwise the leaf could be carefully cut and inspected prior to drying), and trimming out the central stem of each leaf is part of the preparation process; no fragment must remain. Intentionally toxic tea would be made with the whole leaf.
From my limited understanding of plant structures, what chemicals resides in the midrib (that primary center vein) would also reside in the veins (the smaller branches). This would make removal of the toxin even more difficult, with varying levels of toxin remaining per leaf when finished. There may be mystical methods and communing with the Ancestors and Winds to determine whether each vein of each leaf should be removed or not, resulting in a sort of artistic removal of some but not all poison veins of the leaf. The more and larger veins remain, the more toxin.
Keep in mind that these veins eventually become microscopic in size, just like blood capillaries. It is impossible to remove all of them by hand without completely destroying the leaf itself. Thus, no matter what you do... some toxin will remain, as intended.
I like. It also makes it a lot easier to make with modern tech (synthetic kresh tea or something in the same vein), with the same faint level of toxicity (which is still quite toxic to outsiders and can lead to more than mere stomach aches...). Although some traditionalists might scowl at such ways of making tea.
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Might? I Hyasyoda customs finds you bringing that tea into their territory, you are probably summarily executed. :yar:
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The tea in a Japanese Tea Ceremony is made by pooring hot water into a cup of finely ground powder. No leafs or filters etc. The powder just dissolves.
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THE FORGE - Reports have surfaced that CPD Security Director, Tivalo Okkinen, has been found dead in his home with his mouth stuffed full of raw Kresh leaves. No hak'len cups or residue have been found on the scene, leading investigators to assume this was an act of murder, rather than a legitimate Tea Ceremony.
The Tea Maker's Commission has issued a statement condemning the use of Kresh in this manner, and has denied any knowledge or responsibility of the attack. Despite this, top members of the Commission have been seen speaking with investigators, and at least one has voluntarily submitted himself for detainment and further questioning. No charges have been announced, nor has a name of the detained been released.
A Scope employee traveling within the State on a press visa has also been arrested on charges of Gross Disrespect for commenting negatively on the Tea Maker Ceremony. His statement, which has been censored, drew parallels between the sacred Ceremony and illegal vigilantism. The Scope has declined to comment.
I love this. In my scribblings on Hamish's background I've imagined that his families company owns a Tea Maker academy and uses pupils for networking (providing a master Tea Maker for little Susies coming of age), strong arming business rivals and in the most recent years leaving a string of hundreds of mid-level provist bodies in the Karnola constellation. I can Imagine the kind of message it sends when every week another one of your peers is found with a tea cup in one hand and a suicide note proclaiming his or her great shame at betraying the Caldari people in the other.
I'd decided some time ago that Hamish's ong absences from space is are because he spends most his time convincing the baseliner provists in his home constellation that they are being hunted by tengu, spirits, the winds and even the Maker himself.