Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Havohej on 20 Apr 2010, 11:51
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...if it can really be called a bloc? I dunno. Anyway!
I want a more complex faction for the Minmatars. Just like how you lot used to have some rich and interesting Rival House/house supporter roleplay stuff going on, I wish we had Rival Tribe/Tribe Supporter stuff. The whole slavery thing is just such a strong point of common ground, there's no major/visible Minmatar RP group trying to push that sort of stuff. Partially off-topic for this thread, I know.
If somebody (*cough*forumadmin*cough*) starts that thread, I'd be all over it.
How come it's all so homogenous? There's elements in PF that suggest some pretty strong rivalries between different tribes, yet unlike how there used to be (still are?) corps in the Amarr bloc that were loyal to one house in particular I've never seen a Tribe-oriented corp outside of small Thukker groups, most of which wither and die or go generally inactive due to some apparent lack of interest before long. I mean, not even digging through the deep back pages of the recruitment forum on EVE-O can I find such an animal.
I suppose there's RE-AW which requires a certain level of Brutor Tribe standings, but I've never seen them to present themselves as a "Brutor-oriented" corporation in any other respect so I don't think that's their 'thing'.
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I drew up plans a while back for a Sebiestor tribal corp, but never launched it due to all sorts of reasons.
While at first glance the Minmatars might seem to have all sorts of love and unity, I don't know that that really rings true upon deeper examination.
From an OOC perspective: well, "death to the slavers" sure makes for a really useful handle for new RPers, and it has enough of a compelling quality even to maintain the interest of some experienced RPers. Plus, the obvious "excuse" it provides for lots of pew.
But even IC: okay, so you have the Big Bad just across the way, and capsuleers doing the EVE equivalent of the Battle of Britain to keep it out. Now, back in the Republic, we have a huge change in form of government (parliamentary -> tribal republic), some giant sekrit project out in the wildlands, and likely tons of behind-closed-doors scheming. Nobody wants outsiders to know about it, of course, because the Empire would try again to infiltrate and take advantage of that, but likely six of the seven tribes (excepting <em>maybe</em> the Starkmanir ) have all sorts of little plans working.
And let's not forget the much-neglected nexus between the RSS, the Angel Cartel, and the Thukkers. I seem to recall some hints that the boundaries occasionally get murky, and the Angel epic arc seems to refer to that as well.
/me takes a breath so as not to monopolize the thread.
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I think part of this can be attributed to the honogenous nature of the Minmatar tribal PF itself. Aside from the Thukkers, the differences between the tribes have never really been elaborated on - "Brutors teach their kids to fend for themselves, while Vherokior teach them the strength of friendship and allies" (or something similar, I just made that up) doesn't appear in Minmatar PF a lot. In fact, lately the PF (Eders running everything from the shadows, reuniting of the Starkmanir, true loyalty of some of the Nefantar, even the Thukker/Rep. Fleet attack on Skarkon) seems to be painting over what differences there are.
Compare this to the Amarr PF, where not only do the Amarr houses often compete (bloodily so), they have on occasion actually defied the Emperor/Empress (Khanid II, Uriam Kador's invasion of Gallente space).
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@Esna: Well, you see brief mentions of stereotypes between tribes here and there, like people generally feeling distrustful toward Krusuals, for instance, or some of the stuff in the Scars chron iirc. But so much time and attention has been spent on Amarr plots and backstory by CCP and by comparison so little on Minmatar in general (where the fuck is our goddamn Tribal Assembly news item?). Still, there's been some interesting, in depth stuff out of the Minmatar RP crowd (Clan Shakor pdf document, for example) that it just seems.. off to me, somehow, that nobody's picked a particular Tribe to run with instead of the Minmatar melting pot of Let My People Go (dunno if anyone's noticed yet, but Let My People Go isn't DF1AS's primary 'theme').
@Casi: WTB details on Angel epic arc.
I dunno.. is it a matter of not being presented with more inter-Tribal grit in PF as Esna suggested? I'd love to see Sebiestor-centric corps, or any other tribe for that matter, springing up, even if they're pro-Republic and not stirring shit against the other tribes.. just cultivate and build a tribal identity even if they have to make up 90% of it.
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I'm screenshotting the arc as I work through it. Maybe I should get off my butt and finish the arc... stinking nullsec bubble camps.
Anyway, we do know a few things about tribal stereotypes (e.g. the Krusuals are basically the Bothans (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bothan) of EVE). But we don't know too much about their motivations and political drivers the way we do about regions or ethnicities IRL.
Side note: Did you know... the Brutors were based on the Maori tribes of New Zealand, not Africans? (See The Art of EVE.)
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Side note: Did you know... the Brutors were based on the Maori tribes of New Zealand, not Africans? (See The Art of EVE.)
Well, maybe. I live in New Zealand, so I know a bit about the Maori tribes by osmosis.
The Sebiestor clan Atamahara that Matariki and I have somewhat fleshed out is based probably 50% on Maori patterns, 40% on Icelandic pre-christian patterns (as presented in the Sagas) and 10% on what little I know about the arabic clan/tribe structure.
It seems to work quite well, and I think the few other characters who have encountered it have enjoyed it.
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Well, as player-driven content, that may be. But I meant that CCP's inspiration for "big black tribesmen" came from someplace other than the African continent.
Personally, I'd like to see the Norse touches get played up a bit more, though I recognize that (a) even though we have some Norse references, the Minmatars are not actually Space Vikings, and (b) other players have successfully and interestingly drawn on other influences.
Also note that the Thukkers aren't the only Minmatar tribe with a nomadic tradition, cf. the Sebiestor (and maybe the Vherokior), per the character creation stuff.
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Well, as player-driven content, that may be. But I meant that CCP's inspiration for "big black tribesmen" came from someplace other than the African continent.
Oh, yes, I don't doubt that, and I think I was trying to say I'd seen the parrallels already which informed the choices we made about our Player clan.
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The little bit of thinking I've done about my Vherokior's character's clan combined some aspects of what I know about the Navajo people, and some aspects of some Indigenous nations of northern Australia, especially the use of ritual wounding as a justice system.
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So, just musing here (don't take anything too seriously): what would folks think about tribal-based RP corps?
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So, just musing here (don't take anything too seriously): what would folks think about tribal-based RP corps?
Well, I've been playing that the Tribe is a rather distant thing. I have strong ties to my clan, but there are billions of Sebiestor, so I don't have a huge tie to them over anyone else.
They're sufficiently distant that I don't necessarily trust them over anyone else, and sufficiently numerous that I don't think there's a single direction they're all pointed in. I mean, what counts as Sebiestor politics as distinct from Brutor politics?
And given the numbers of Sebiestor that I run into who shoot at me, it would be difficult to justify trusting someone just because they were Sebiestor.
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Though I do not do it often, I do try to promote my alternate thoughts on being a Minmatar when the opportunity arise.
Myyona is a builder and constructor and very little warrior. In fact, she detest warmongering and often blame the Butor tribe for being too rush to violence and committing murder of Minmatar slaves under the reasoning that being dead is better then being a slave. That sentiment is disgusting to Myyona who feels it is too cheap to claim to be the master of life and death when it is not your own death that is on the line. Especially when these statements come from "immortal" capsuleers she become furious. In general, she does not see violence as a long term solution to anything but more like the work of opportunists who are using the war as excuse to strengthen their own position. She often refer to these kind of people as "primates".
Of course she would like the Amarr to stop using slaves, but she is quite aware that slavery of different kinds exist in all the major empires and only the narrow minded or hypocrites ignore that fact. She is more concerned about what is going to happen with the slaves when they return home than fighting the Amarr. What is the point saving slaves if all you can offer is a life of starvation, poverty and misery in its place, is her major concern.
Myyona liked Midular more than Shakor and are not particular fond of the Elders attack on the Amarr, spending ISK that should have been used to develop the Republic on tools of war instead and then leave and hide and letting others clean up the mess after them.
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@Casi: WTB details on Angel epic arc.
I am working as fast as I can. 8)
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Here's one thing that always made me wonder to no end :D
U'K and EM (not to exclude the rest of the minis, I just don't know all your corptickers) have never come to major blows with each other, at least from what I know.
With the whole "1ISK for Midulars head" business and other things, how come you minis remain so peacefull?
P.S.: And when will we get a big show of fireworks from you, if ever? I need to reserve a seat and buy popcorn ;)
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Myyona, what corp / alliance are you in? Just curious, as much of your stance sounds similar to EM's.
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Here's one thing that always made me wonder to no end :D
U'K and EM (not to exclude the rest of the minis, I just don't know all your corptickers) have never come to major blows with each other, at least from what I know.
With the whole "1ISK for Midulars head" business and other things, how come you minis remain so peacefull?
P.S.: And when will we get a big show of fireworks from you, if ever? I need to reserve a seat and buy popcorn ;)
The Amarr bloc is too united for them to seriously fall out :bear:
Clever realpolitik.
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Myyona, what corp / alliance are you in? Just curious, as much of your stance sounds similar to EM's.
I am quite my own, doing mainly synth booster production in Ataraxia Pharmacies. Along with a few other people these days though. But we are not a part of any alliance. Myyona is a bit of a mysterious mix of Minmatar heritage, Caldari corporate mindset and a pharmaceutical/biomedical corporation working with the Sisters of EVE.
Yes, I know I sound a bit as EM. I like them too, and while I do not try to deliberately copy their stance I might have been inspired.
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Hrmmm. I will look you up IG then, as we have a few things in common. Not all, obviously, but enough to make things interesting.
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Here's one thing that always made me wonder to no end :D
U'K and EM (not to exclude the rest of the minis, I just don't know all your corptickers) have never come to major blows with each other, at least from what I know.
With the whole "1ISK for Midulars head" business and other things, how come you minis remain so peacefull?
P.S.: And when will we get a big show of fireworks from you, if ever? I need to reserve a seat and buy popcorn ;)
The Amarr bloc is too united for them to seriously fall out :bear:
Clever realpolitik.
Exactly. The Empire is very much a uniting influence in Matari society as a whole and between EM and U'K in particular.
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Right.. so if I destroy the empire... the republic destroys itself... and all the minis die... :D
Oops, wait... destroying the empire is no option for me :cry:
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U'K and EM (not to exclude the rest of the minis, I just don't know all your corptickers) have never come to major blows with each other, at least from what I know.
With the whole "1ISK for Midulars head" business and other things, how come you minis remain so peacefull?
EM is fairly pragmatic about a lot of things, and U'K stay out of the Republic most of the time. There just aren't a lot of practical issues to have conflict over.
If U'K moved back to the Republic, you might see some fireworks, but then they'd probably be a different U'K than they are now, so who knows.
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This is rapidly turning into a thread that needs an IC companion. :twisted:
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Here's one thing that always made me wonder to no end :D
U'K and EM (not to exclude the rest of the minis, I just don't know all your corptickers) have never come to major blows with each other, at least from what I know.
With the whole "1ISK for Midulars head" business and other things, how come you minis remain so peacefull?
P.S.: And when will we get a big show of fireworks from you, if ever? I need to reserve a seat and buy popcorn ;)
It came close many times. Karn has told me he's had members screaming at him to push the big red button and smash us into the ground, while EM too has its lobby that says Ushra'Khan are a bigger threat to the Republic and the Minmatar as a whole than CVA. (EM has a lot of lobbies, it makes internal politics very fun most of the time.)
What has certainly been a part of keeping us off each other's throats is SEBBIE POWAH!
If you look at a number of the Minmatar event agents, the Sebiestor ones are very... tricksy. Dagras Kutil (The Carnival, Barkrik) and Pinala Adala (Some station, Eram) are good examples. Underhanded. Dishonest. Kind of Loki-esque (the Trickster god, not the ship) - Loki's role in the Norse pantheon was to cause the death of beloved Baldur, so that he would be safe and be able to return after Ragnarok to rebuild Midgard.
Anyway, back to U'K and EM.
We have the Amarr as our biggest problem. PF (both from Chrons and in-game events) says they have the biggest Navy and thus are a hideous threat, even if they haven't put it into action yet. Both U'K and EM agree on that, but disagree on which facets to focus on and how to do so. But there are elements on both sides that know a war between us would simply weaken us and strengthen the Amarr. And sometimes we call each other lackwit numbnuts because of that.
BRUTOR ANGRY! BRUTOR SMASH!
So, bring on the Sebs!
O gnoes, U'K and -EM- are on the brink of war again! What will you use to save us, magic Sebiestors?
ORCA POWAH!
Sebbies are lovely, aren't they? Especially the women. Like the Orca, we're pretty, playful and can seriously fuck up a penguin.
No, the whale, not the ship, m'kay?
Beneath whoever is the leader of EM at the time, there's a little pool of Sebiestors circling in the water, giving advice and having happy playful funtime. They run the PR department, among other things. And they do realpolitik. And I believe U'K has some of its own who also speak up at such times (though some of them are actually Brutor, but they're very Sebbie Brutor).
These Sebs leap up out of the water and start working like crazy to dissolve tensions and get relevant parties to shut the hell up and stop making things worse. (This is, of course, much harder when it's one of those Sebs who has lost their temper - i.e. me. Like any good viking, at times I have flown into a rage and really wanted to go round to Ushra'Khan's island and upend their monks.)
We talk to each other both on the IGS forums and off them, making it clear that hostile noises are isolated and not the unified voice of the alliance and that each other's work is appreciated and accepted. We make visible counter-demonstrations to nullify any negative points raised according to our own beliefs. And behind us, we have more Sebbie strengths to give these things oomph. Like...
MARKET POWAH!
"I'm so sorry to hear that you feel that way, Mr AngryMinnie, Sir. By the way, I'm afraid your shipment of Vagabonds has been delayed..."
There is a certain amount of trade between U'K and -EM- and it flows both ways (Contrary to popular belief, U'K too has quite a formidable industrial apparatus at their disposal). Receiving a crapload of cheap ships makes you kind of fond of someone. Fondness is actually appallingly important in Eve Politics. Which brings me to the all-important...
EYELASH POWAH!!11!
Even Sebbie males have it. They deploy those long, dark fluttering eyelashes and call up all the old, loving memories. And between U'K and -EM- there are a lot of them.
Past history has seen us come rushing to each other's aid more than once. Because of our relatively small size (-EM- apparently registers as about 500 people at the moment, but I don't think I've ever met more than 150 and once you weed out people who are RL-busy at the time or unable to be involved for IC reasons, it's quite a small number), we've never been able to send nearly as many people to things like the QR siege and 9UY as we would have liked. But it still makes an impact when you fly 40-odd jumps on zero notice to leap into a system, gleefully cry "We come for our people!" (doing that made my day) and get blown up by U'K's other allies... then come back and do it all again. And likewise, after weeks of exhausting fighting against INFOD, U'K sent a squad to us to help defend a control tower long enough to repair it. Then we go back to nullsec. Then they join us in a fleet against PIE. And so on. And so forth.
And between those visits, we have our bitter fights and swap insults. And then go to help each other in spite of it.
It becomes quite touching over time. So that's basically how we manage to stay united in action if not always in thought - because it's a) Too important not to and b) there's simply too much history to be entirely forgotten.
A post about the realpolitik aspect of Matari alliance politics from deepest darkest history - Matari Politics: A Symbiotic View (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=517893)
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Whilst it would be nice to see some tribally-aligned corps, I wonder how it would happen in practice - would a Brutor corp have limits on non-Brutors joining?
And I know that they have their different cultures, but what do the different tribes actually stand for politically, anyway?
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The minmatar block.
(http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/crushed%20car%20on%20flickr.jpg)
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Whilst it would be nice to see some tribally-aligned corps, I wonder how it would happen in practice - would a Brutor corp have limits on non-Brutors joining?
And I know that they have their different cultures, but what do the different tribes actually stand for politically, anyway?
In general, Brutor tribe is strongly militant. Sebiestor tribe are quite diplomatic. Krusual are isolationist and the Vherokior are laisse-faire. All the original Republican tribes seem to have a unificationist bent i.e. all Minmatar, one Nation. Each clan, however, has its own viewpoints and traditions.
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In general, Brutor tribe is strongly militant. Sebiestor tribe are quite diplomatic. Krusual are isolationist and the Vherokior are laisse-faire. All the original Republican tribes seem to have a unificationist bent i.e. all Minmatar, one Nation. Each clan, however, has its own viewpoints and traditions.
I'd like to read up a bit more on that. Could you point us to links on those?
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In general, Brutor tribe is strongly militant. Sebiestor tribe are quite diplomatic. Krusual are isolationist and the Vherokior are laisse-faire. All the original Republican tribes seem to have a unificationist bent i.e. all Minmatar, one Nation. Each clan, however, has its own viewpoints and traditions.
I'd like to read up a bit more on that. Could you point us to links on those?
Oops, yeah, perhaps I should have said "My perception is that..."
Though I'm not pulling it entirely out of my exquisitely pert bottom.
The Boundless Creation ship, the Sleipnir (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sleipnir), is described thus: "Boundless Creation's ships are based on the Brutor tribe's philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible."
Shakor was himself was a militant. [Maleatu Shakor Chronicle (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Maleatu_Shakor_(Chronicle)) | Evelopedia Entry (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Malaetu_Shakor)]
The Brutor tribe corp description (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Brutor_tribe_(NPC_corporation)) says "The Brutors suffered the worst under the Amarr occupation and many of them are still enslaved within the Amarr Empire. This fuels their hate for the Amarrians and they are the only tribe to actively pursue a continuation of the war against the Amarrians and their underlings, the Ammatars."
The Brutor Freedom Front, The Wolves of Pator and the Defiants [Aurora event groups] were all Brutor militants.
Player-wise, Camar and many of StormRiders were highly enthusiastic militant Brutor as were many promient Brutor members of Ushra'Khan - Brutor definitely seem to outnumber Sebs in militant Minmatar Groups (DF perhaps excepted), while political moderates like EM and VOSP have many more Sebs.
Seb-wise, we have the news archives from the years of Karin Midular's prime ministerial term. She was compromising (some would say appeasing) and negotiative... (Yes, I am making up words here). She was leader of Sebiestor tribe at the time (and still is).
I place the Krusual tribe as isolationist because it says somewhere that they were the one tribe to escape slavery by pulling back into the mountains and staying there with a "nobody comes in, nobody goes out" policy. In more recent news.
The Krusual were involved in an Aurora event which involved trying to prevent new Caldari stations being established in Minmatar space. They later made some statement rejecting the concept of "trial" as unminmatar and foreign-influenced. I seem to remember there being another statement somewhere in which a member of the government comments that the Krusual have always gone their own way.
The Vherokior are rather undernourished in PF. We know they travel between tribes and clans bearing news and information, teaching the knowledge of each back and forth. The Vherokior tribe corp description (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vherokior_tribe_(NPC_corporation)) says "The Vherokior tribe is perhaps the least troubled of the Minmatar tribes, with little aspirations for dominance, content to live on the fringe." There's also stuff about them trading extensively with the Thukker and Angels.
When you look at their home space of Molden Heath, it has a tiny, tiny amount of highsec space. Most of it is lawless, ungoverned and left to run itself. Yet the Vherks aren't depicted anywhere as out-and-out criminals, suggesting that it's left like that because they just don't care much whether ships want to get boomy with each other.
So yes, what I said above is more my personal impression from generic amounts of stuff than any concrete statement anywhere.
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I have always had the same impression of the Brutor, largely due to Boundless Creation and, yeah, every political story about the tribe.
Krusual seem to be the shifty types, as I recall. I sort of think of them as the Bothans of EVE, which probably isn't fair to either universe, and certainly doesn't preclude them from being traditional and isolationist in their political goals. Because of that, I tend to assume that they have heavy representation in the RSS.
The Sebiestor are more interesting, as we know that they have a tinkerer mindset: the whole "we can build anything from anything at any time" viewpoint. They also have a nomadic tradition not wholly unlike the Thukkers, at least for some portion of the tribe, based on character creation. So I tend to view the Sebs as highly pragmatic: do what works, don't worry about anything else. Diplomacy is a tool that might work, and when it doesn't, toss it and try something else. Hell, try everything simultaneously from different directions.
Molden Heath presents an interesting case, as the region description (I think) indicates it was originally set aside as a shared area for all tribes. The Vherokior have a small corner of it, obviously, but not the entire region, just as the Krusuals inhabit the Ani constellation principally.
I have additional thoughts on the "tribal republic" concept, but I'm worried that CCP will finally publish something momentous as soon as I write up what I think.
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Whilst it would be nice to see some tribally-aligned corps, I wonder how it would happen in practice - would a Brutor corp have limits on non-Brutors joining?
And I know that they have their different cultures, but what do the different tribes actually stand for politically, anyway?
In general, Brutor tribe is strongly militant. Sebiestor tribe are quite diplomatic. Krusual are isolationist and the Vherokior are laisse-faire. All the original Republican tribes seem to have a unificationist bent i.e. all Minmatar, one Nation. Each clan, however, has its own viewpoints and traditions.
As always, leaving out the nefantar! ;)
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I think many of us don't quite know what to make of the revelations involving the Starkmanir. I can only imagine how that is for you folks directly in that RP...
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Given the Nefantar only recently returned, their political stance, along with that of Starkmanir, is kind of uncertain.
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Krusual seem to be the shifty types, as I recall. I sort of think of them as the Bothans of EVE, which probably isn't fair to either universe, and certainly doesn't preclude them from being traditional and isolationist in their political goals. Because of that, I tend to assume that they have heavy representation in the RSS.
The Sebiestor are more interesting, as we know that they have a tinkerer mindset: the whole "we can build anything from anything at any time" viewpoint. They also have a nomadic tradition not wholly unlike the Thukkers, at least for some portion of the tribe, based on character creation. So I tend to view the Sebs as highly pragmatic: do what works, don't worry about anything else. Diplomacy is a tool that might work, and when it doesn't, toss it and try something else. Hell, try everything simultaneously from different directions.
Also good points - there are definitely Krusual moments that make them shifty, but these also abound for the Sebs. Pragmatic could be a very good slant for the Sebs, too.
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Given the Nefantar only recently returned, their political stance, along with that of Starkmanir, is kind of uncertain.
If memory serves before the Day of Darkness the Nefantar where the leaders of the Matari. I would imagine they did a lot of the horse trading that got the Minmatar unified enough to get into space and start settling other worlds. That much is PF (I think).
Post invasion they got a reputation for sucking up to the Amarr in order to maintain their influence. When the revolt came they where largely tossed out along with their masters. The only way that Empyrean Age makes sense at all is that a group within the tribe where really working to shield the rest of the people from the worst excesses of the empire and went underground within the empire to protect the last of the Starkmanir.
For the White Wolf original WoD players amongst you think of them as the small, resurgent, sane faction in the Silver Fangs. If this is true it would make them full on self-sacrificing heroic types. So of course they'll get shafted extra hard in the dystopian and then some setting of EVE.
Not so sure about the Starkmanir. However given they where game to try a one tribe revolt it could be they'd make the Brutor look downright calm and reasonable.