EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources > The Summit (IG Channel Discussion)
Problems in summit moderation
Desiderya:
It's a conspiracy.
Charles Cambridge Schmidt:
-snip-
Lithium Flower:
--- Quote from: PracticalTechnicality on 30 May 2014, 10:18 ---It is a private channel that is open to us to use. There are channels where the EULA is the only code enforced. I sympathise that something may not be to your liking, lord knows there are many things I could and would change, but you must recognise that feeling offended or wronged, is not actual indication of wrong doing on the part of whomever or whatever offends you. Especially when the 'enforcement' system of a private channel is 'so long as you are not breaking EULA, you can ban, kick or shout at whoever you like'.
I strongly suggest you drop the issue, but expect you will not.
--- End quote ---
This is a problem, that it is not open to use.
Maybe there could be rules, that I don't like, and maybe I can even violate some rules, and some even purposeful, but then I would know for what I was modded and accept it, since I was going for it knowing consequences (for example - this violation will get me muted 10 minutes, but I must do it to play character behavior correctly, so here it goes; or - this violation gets you banned both by EULA and channel rules, I shouldn't do it!)
In this case they even fail to say, what exactly wrong was said and when. Or, in other words "what to do to not get banned". Someone can simply lie to moderator, and they can ban you without even letting you prove you didn't do anything wrong. Because so far they never said what was said incorrect, when and why it was incorrect.
You try to follow rules, you try to behave and even don't insult trolls, who give you direct insults and use obscene words, and yet you get banned :bash:
Fun fact: those, who were saying direct insults are still not banned.
Katrina Oniseki:
--- Quote from: Lithium Flower on 30 May 2014, 05:43 ---The problems are :
1. Moderators troll and insult players, and when they reply back - they mute. If they put moderators on ignore - they ban them.
--- End quote ---
Moderators are volunteers. Unlike CCP GM's, we don't get paid for it, and we frankly don't have to be respectful or kind to you. We don't even have to play fair with you. That's what you get when you use a free service with volunteer staff. If you work to piss us off, we're going to slap you upside the back of the head, feel fucking great about it, and not receive an ounce of punishment for it. We're not professionals.
We have real lives, jobs, children, spouses, expenses, and stressors in our real lives that we spend our efforts and sanity on. We will not spare our sanity for your sake any more than we have already volunteered to do. You aren't that important. None of you are. Most of us try to be respectful. Some try less than others. For any number of reasons, we log into EVE ill prepared for the deluge of inconsequential drama of Summit users, and we find ourselves quickly deprived of any sense of enjoyment for our gaming session.
Most of the time, we grab a nearby fellow mod and throw them at the channel instead of going off the deep end at the problem of the moment. Sometimes, we can't because we're alone, or don't have the patience to do anything but snap at you. So we throw insults, or troll you a bit, or say something that otherwise would be considered unprofessional. This goes back to the whole volunteer thing.
If you want us to be held accountable for everything we do and answer to more defined and restrictive standard of operation, you can be the first to start sending ISK to us (along with every other user) to make this a paid service. Until then, you get exactly what you pay for.*
--- Quote ---2. Moderators ban and mute without warning for rules that were not explained or written anywhere and without warning that this activity is against the rules.
--- End quote ---
As has been explained on multiple occasions, we do not and will not write a constitution of rights and rules for the Summit. We will not write down the rules (again), because to be completely frank - people start "internet lawyering" the mods and begin seeking loopholes.
Furthermore, by writing down the rules, we would not only subject ourselves to even more scrutiny by users, but we would be banning players more often. The thing about writing down contracts of agreement is that they're by nature inflexible. We would have to enforce every single instance according to the contract, regardless of if we thought the user knew about the rules or not - because it's already written down.
The biggest reason we use internally to not ban users is that we know there is no easy way for the users to know if something is against the rules or not. So we issue warnings, chats, or temporary moderation, to teach users where the line of reason is and how to avoid crossing it. This is of course the intended goal, and all cases may not fall in line with it as stated in #1.
In your specific case Diana - you would have been banned over a year ago. Permanently. You had been given near countless opportunities, warnings, and temporaries in order to adjust your behaviors. You did not, and now you're been removed from the channel for good.
--- Quote ---3. Moderators ban without reasons.
--- End quote ---
We always have a reason. It may be a reason you disagree with or find invalid, but it is still a reason. In your specific case, you have a habit of declaring any moderator who disagrees with you or takes action against you is "not a moderator". You're welcome to ignore us... you just aren't welcome to use the channels if you do. You do not get to selectively choose who is a moderator and who isn't, what is a ban reason and what isn't, and what is allowed and what isn't.
You were banned for plenty of reasons which I personally will not elaborate on or hint at any further than I already have. You made this bed, Diana Kim. We hope you enjoy sleeping in it.
* ISK sent will be considered unrelated charitable donations without the presence of a formal subscription fee system (which will never happen), and will NOT grant preferential treatment. So don't bother. The whole idea was facetious.
Lithium Flower:
--- Quote from: Katrina Oniseki on 30 May 2014, 11:36 ---
--- Quote from: Lithium Flower on 30 May 2014, 05:43 ---The problems are :
1. Moderators troll and insult players, and when they reply back - they mute. If they put moderators on ignore - they ban them.
--- End quote ---
Moderators are volunteers. Unlike CCP GM's, we don't get paid for it, and we frankly don't have to be respectful or kind to you. We don't even have to play fair with you. That's what you get when you use a free service with volunteer staff. If you work to piss us off, we're going to slap you upside the back of the head, feel fucking great about it, and not receive an ounce of punishment for it. We're not professionals.
We have real lives, jobs, children, spouses, expenses, and stressors in our real lives that we spend our efforts and sanity on. We will not spare our sanity for your sake any more than we have already volunteered to do. You aren't that important. None of you are. Most of us try to be respectful. Some try less than others. For any number of reasons, we log into EVE ill prepared for the deluge of inconsequential drama of Summit users, and we find ourselves quickly deprived of any sense of enjoyment for our gaming session.
Most of the time, we grab a nearby fellow mod and throw them at the channel instead of going off the deep end at the problem of the moment. Sometimes, we can't because we're alone, or don't have the patience to do anything but snap at you. So we throw insults, or troll you a bit, or say something that otherwise would be considered unprofessional. This goes back to the whole volunteer thing.
If you want us to be held accountable for everything we do and answer to more defined and restrictive standard of operation, you can be the first to start sending ISK to us (along with every other user) to make this a paid service. Until then, you get exactly what you pay for.*
--- End quote ---
Not only mods can have stresses and snap on peoples. By doing this you provoke snapping back, and, I don't know, either accept that snapping, or just mod both parties.
Otherwise you just use mod button for your own needs as an argument in conversation.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---2. Moderators ban and mute without warning for rules that were not explained or written anywhere and without warning that this activity is against the rules.
--- End quote ---
As has been explained on multiple occasions, we do not and will not write a constitution of rights and rules for the Summit. We will not write down the rules (again), because to be completely frank - people start "internet lawyering" the mods and begin seeking loopholes.
Furthermore, by writing down the rules, we would not only subject ourselves to even more scrutiny by users, but we would be banning players more often. The thing about writing down contracts of agreement is that they're by nature inflexible. We would have to enforce every single instance according to the contract, regardless of if we thought the user knew about the rules or not - because it's already written down.
The biggest reason we use internally to not ban users is that we know there is no easy way for the users to know if something is against the rules or not. So we issue warnings, chats, or temporary moderation, to teach users where the line of reason is and how to avoid crossing it. This is of course the intended goal, and all cases may not fall in line with it as stated in #1.
In your specific case Diana - you would have been banned over a year ago. Permanently. You had been given near countless opportunities, warnings, and temporaries in order to adjust your behaviors. You did not, and now you're been removed from the channel for good.
--- End quote ---
That's what I am saying: there were no warnings or teaching, where is the line.
Just ban.
Where was teaching or warning about that fight in the summit? Or any chat?
And last case?
Not just warning, or teaching, there wasn't any violation at all! I have reviewed logs for that day: several peoples said way worse things than Diana ever did. In fact, I never found a thing in this log even for smallest mute for Diana.
How to avoid THIS?.. Teach us maybe?
--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---3. Moderators ban without reasons.
--- End quote ---
We always have a reason. It may be a reason you disagree with or find invalid, but it is still a reason. In your specific case, you have a habit of declaring any moderator who disagrees with you or takes action against you is "not a moderator". You're welcome to ignore us... you just aren't welcome to use the channels if you do. You do not get to selectively choose who is a moderator and who isn't, what is a ban reason and what isn't, and what is allowed and what isn't.
You were banned for plenty of reasons which I personally will not elaborate on or hint at any further than I already have. You made this bed, Diana Kim. We hope you enjoy sleeping in it.
--- End quote ---
Saying that certain moderator was not a moderator was over a month ago (or two months) with a ban, of course.
Ban for ignoring moderator was even longest ago.
For ban 16.05 reason is still not provided.
So, where are these warnings, teaching, etc etc?
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