Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 13 Nov 2011, 15:43
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Right, this has been bothering me and a few others for quite a while now. The Summit these days feels nothing more than an IC version of the OOC channel. No one actually wants to debate anything about the PF, mundane cultural tropes, and so forth.
Anyone who has interacted with me both IC and OOC knows full well that I have an interest in how all four factions interact with each other, and approach different matters. I wrote an entire piece about the Caldari Navy (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2417.0) a while ago, and how a Caldari family goes shopping (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1632.msg20278#msg20278), despite being a Gallente RPer.
So, in the Summit, I seek to use Seriphyn to explore these mundane things with other characters. He might be abrasive, but if my OOC interest in the EVE fiction is anything to go by, he is also IC interested in his own off-hand fashion. The problem is, is that the vibe I get is that people are generally quite oversensitive, and always shout down Seriphyn for his abrasive nature etc etc. I mean, come across as a dick, it's not surprising, but the thing that stuck out to me today was when a character actually asked Seriphyn to be banned from the channel without breaking any rules, while the same character actually broke the rules by swearing and namecalling. This happens all the time; Seriphyn never swears at others or namecalls, yet other people do it all the time (And to each other).
From how I see things, I'm just using the channel as it is (the Summit, after all). But maybe I should just accept how it is these days. To give you an example of how it sometimes can be an RP'd version of OOC...
aaa > I just agreed to a 1v1
aaa > And the blob.
bbb > It was still 1v1.
bbb > 1blobv1notblob.
Character bbb in this instance, having asked them on the aside, actually mistook the Summit for the OOC channel. But yeah, point is, where did the PF debates go? Why is trying to stimulate an in-universe discussion not done anymore? I appreciate that Seriphyn comes across as jerky, but then that's rendered moot when other characters directly insult him with curse words and names, when he's never done any of the sort himself.
Putting my character on the aside completely, the problem still remains. Might be that whole "no new content from CCP" thing going on, but that's no excuse for players to not generate their own material through RP. That's what I'm trying to push for.
Of note on the general state of the Summit...someone said to me that the 11-year old Anette often outclasses a lot of the Summit inhabitants while still realistically acting like an 11-year old. Go figure.
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Now, this might sound like an "urdoingitrong" post, but I try to view this from a distance and as objective as possible.
The Summit does feel like an OOC channel most of the times. There are a lot of internet memes going on ( banging head on table, facepalming so overused that it's not just happen to be the legitimate response to nonsense ) and the quality of the discussion is basically saying high, talking about what someone ate earlier and a lot of virtual hugging.
If someone comes in and gets a bit abrasive, provocative or not-treehuggerlike there's the autoresponse of "GTFO", not wanted here, ban him for being not nice.
If somehow an interesting discussion does take place it is usually met with a rather similar treatment - "no one wants to hear that", "isn't it enough already?" and so on. While this can be counted as RP the activities that follow will be focused about finding out the advantages of cookies over brownies or something similarily character driven.
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I'd love to see more Summit discussions that incorporate the PF in some way. That doesn't mean consistent heavy-handed attempts at wedging it in, either, trying to force conversations about something else into the politics of the Amarr-Minmatar warzone, say, but something.
I was bemoaning it earlier, in fact; the Summit seems more like a place for cyclic "no u" from all sides of every fence rather than actual constructive RP that looks at how life for a capsuleer in New Eden (for whatever faction, or lack thereof) might be like. Kyber is in a somewhat awkward place to start it off -- fuck, even participate, sometimes -- in a sense that's comparable to Seriphyn(c)'s situation. Kyber can go from relatively gentle and easy-going to abrasive as all hell in the Summit's environment, which in this instance irritates him just as much as it saddens me, giving him, on occasion, something not unlike Seriphyn(c)'s issue. Add to that the perennial Nation arguments, and well. Perhaps that latter issue is because the Nation was the last "big" thing, Arek'jaalan aside.
To echo what I've said in reference to the NEA: new content from CCP is incidental. There is plenty of room in an entire star cluster n thousand years in the future for creative, vibrant and worldbuilding RP that uses EVE's setting to its full potential.
tl;dr: "Summit RP is getting depressingly tedious; what gives."
If somehow an interesting discussion does take place it is usually met with a rather similar treatment - "no one wants to hear that", "isn't it enough already?"
Because, chances are, it has been done a thousand times in that channel. Entirely new conversations in the Summit are something I only see intermittently, now, so what might be interesting for some is as repetitious as it gets for others. Refer to the above for attempts to try and shove it in a new direction, and add to it others coming in to derail the topic, intentionally or otherwise.
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As much as I understand and share your concerns - I almost never RP on this channel, I find it so dull to begin with, for all the reasons you stated above - you might consider that if the Summit is that way, it is also because people want it that way. If you force people to change to the RP you are looking for - and I am looking for too - 80% of the folks here may leave because thats not the RP they are looking for. A lot of RPers are actually pleased to RP that way on the Summit from what it seems to me.
On another note, except very few players like Seri, nobody tries to do something or speak about something relevant or interesting. Most of us are just silent like graves, myself included. At the contrary of all the people happyhugging or insulting each other with the kind of RP you seem to point out. So I do think that either we try to find interesting stuff to force into that channel until it is accepted and liked, or either we use other channels (or either we continue to create nothing).
Main problem with that community is that its not really a community. Besides backstage, there is nothing, everyone RP in his little corner with a handful of friends.
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You could try to get back the faction channels.
The Amarr one has always been more or less RP lite.
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Seeing how as I'm slightly responsible for this topic existing, I thought I'd jump in.
The person who was name calling Seri was me, however, and Seri, if that's not what you were trying to convey, then I'm sorry but that's how it came across.
(as a note I'm using Seriphyn to refer to the character and Seri to refer to the player)
Seriphyn was basically attacking random points of Caldari culture that he disagreed with ICly, when people tried to respond to his points, he'd immediately jump to another point of contention. This irritated kiki immensely because he seemed to be making really childish ad hominem attacks and generally just being a jackass. Eventually she called him out on it and called him a bitch.
Now: The Summit as I see it, is a communications forum for people of differing political associations, as well as being a generalized central comms channel for capsuleers. Its a place for people to talk, get to know each other, talk to factions they normally wouldn't, and in general it functions as a rather decent chat hub.
what Seriphyn was doing was coming in and acting all morally superior, picking holes in parts of a culture he didn't like, for no other reason then that he felt like being a jackass and pissing people off. This wasn't intelligent, intellectual debate, which does happen there on a fairly regular basis, maybe just not ones that you Seri, want to talk about.
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Consider this depressing assessment.
Most RPers fall into the categories of either:
1). Iconoclasts for the sake of being iconoclasts.
2). Nationalists with little tolerance, if any, for discourse with enemies of their ideals.
3). Pirates who have nothing to gain from discussion in channels like the Summit.
See the problem?
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In some ways I think some of what Seri is looking for is a casualty of FW. before there was a war, I could see there being friendly or even pointed discussions about cultural oddities. Once there is war, it's very difficult to have a warm friendly conversation with "the enemy".
From having similar conversations IRL over various networks, it can occasionally be very interesting to have cultural discussions about the differences, but quite often it can disintegrate into real unpleasantness about such subjects as what your president is doing, and what our socialistic health service is doing. Even amongst people I otherwise get on with really well, there are subjects that I don't raise.
On the Summit? With people from widely different cultures who actively dislike each other? The only way to have polite conversation seems to me to avoid some topics like the plague.
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Why would infomorphes discuss the factual eccentricities (Prime Fiction) of any topic?
Why would someone who can look-up a wikipedia-esque entries in their brain and then digest the reference material in a matter of seconds have a conversation with another such being? Perhaps they are interested in the other's opinion, but then they should be working from the same set of facts (PF).
Should the Summit even exist in-character? Or is it an Out-of-Character artifact? Do the major 0.0 alliances (capsuleer factions) have a similar channel? Why would the capsuleers representing the multitude of factions of humanity have such a channel?
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Well, regarding the thread title
1.) Yes I care about IC discussions about PF. I do it quite often.
2.) I just feel that the Summit is an unrealistic, clumsy and generally non entertaining way of discussing PF. Its not fun RP for me.
I'm hardly alone in this.
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Well, regarding the thread title
1.) Yes I care about IC discussions about PF. I do it quite often.
2.) I just feel that the Summit is an unrealistic, clumsy and generally non entertaining way of discussing PF. Its not fun RP for me.
I'm hardly alone in this.
This, especially when more often than not there are people who're there just to piss take and troll, and there are nowhere near enough moderators to cover time zones, with the vast majority of (all three of) them being AFK or unresponsive for most of their time there.
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I only ever interact in the Summit when there's someone in there worth interacting with. I don't mean this personally to anyone, but there are a number of RPers who simply strike a bad chord with me, for any number of reasons I won't go into here. I prefer to use the channel to chat in character: simple character interaction and development without having to devote the energy required for baRP.
Debating isn't my cup of tea. The mere word "debate" indicates to me that there is competition involved; a drive to prove oneself Right in front of everyone else. A nice goal, but not for me, because I don't actually care about being Right as much as I care about having fun.
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Well, regarding the thread title
1.) Yes I care about IC discussions about PF. I do it quite often.
2.) I just feel that the Summit is an unrealistic, clumsy and generally non entertaining way of discussing PF. Its not fun RP for me.
I'm hardly alone in this.
This, especially when more often than not there are people who're there just to piss take and troll, and there are nowhere near enough moderators to cover time zones, with the vast majority of (all three of) them being AFK or unresponsive for most of their time there.
I hope I don't give this impression. I'm almost always paying attention, and I am always open to being poked, even if I am at work. I can't obviously take any ACTION when I am at work, but if I have logs I can deal with it when I get home.
When I am on, I am paying attention, though. :(
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Virtual hugging? If Mitty is doing that in there someone please slap me.
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Coming from someone on the new end of things (less than a year)
I barely spend a minute in The Summit, just to see if it's changed.
It hasn't.
I keep looking for active RP channels, and though we have a very nice list going...they're all silent.
if anyone actually wants to start up a place to discuss RP in EVE in a neutral IC environment that isn't about lurking, please contact Techie Kanenald....I'd be interested.
This world is seriously too beautiful to give up on RP....but I'm very, very close.
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a neutral IC environment
I'm not sure such a thing is possible. ;-)
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My .02 isk. Saxon is a busy guy with a whole lot going on in his corner of the universe. The ILF's mission is more than just philosophical, we physically have a lot going on with industry, mining, planetary interaction, anti-pirate activity, faction war drama, internal divisions, we have a mole we're trying contain, a neighboring corp is trying to cherry-pick our best pilots, etc.
Saxon has a lot more productive things to do with his time than sit around and discuss Caldari shopping centers and Amarrian prayer rituals. If, however, Seriphyn wants to discuss Placid Region affairs, Intaki culture or one of the issues I mentioned above, feel free to say something in the freeintaki channel. I see him there from time to time already.
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I swear, we have this discussion about every six months or so, just like bitching about how the IGS is so horrible and no one goes there. I need to start saving my posts so I can just cut&paste for ease, but I'll respond nonetheless with some points:
1) Tiberious is one of the few people that make the channel shine. He is engaging and has something to say about everything, so thanks for that.
2) The "herp derp" internet meme bullshit has to end, cause I know it kills any incentive I've had to interact with that behavior. Not that I'm very engaging in the channel, but if I was moderator I'd be keeping some strict standards on that.
3) I don't want world building discussions; I want meaningful player interaction. That doesn't mean hearing who fucked Stacy last week or having pseudo-intellectual diatribes about why slavery is wrong unless there's going to be some fundamental character perspective changes going on, and I don't ever perceive that happening. People argue for the sake of arguing, and generally screw around because they are bored and hungry for interaction.
4) The Summit is, at present, a generic RP channel with a whole lot of people meshed together for OOC reasons rather than IC ones; they are either new and just looking to find their place in the community (God help them), or they are established characters with factional ties who have nothing in common with anyone else but have nowhere else to interact that's active. It's no wonder no one gets along or anything meaningful happens, everyone's characters perceives each other as an adversary.
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...everyone's characters perceives each other as an adversary.
Perceives? Everyone is everyone else's adversary. You're not going to get around that.
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Kala really doesn't use the summit much. Pretty much only when she thinks she can get away with being inappropriate :p
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I'd discuss PF news items IC there... but they're rather thin on the ground.
Neither re-hashing the PF background nor public character development of my rather private character appeal.
So what's left? Listening to people jabbering away about nonsense/capsuleer private life gossip. Meh.
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Kala really doesn't use the summit much. Pretty much only when she thinks she can get away with being inappropriate :p
This is true in many cases. Many only use The Summit when they want to be controversial.
Look, some folks seem to have a problem with the fact that The Summit does not have the community feel they are looking for in EVE.
That is not what The Summit is, and I would go further to say that it isn't what a majority of our characters are.
Most of us are Bastards. Mass murderers. Justifiers of absolute atrocity.
A room full of such folk will never be the wonderland of debate and scholarly discourse.
We have the NEA for that. I was glad to be apart of both, for these reasons. Each is their own animal, and folks shouldn't look for one to become the other. It's not likely to happen anytime soon.
The Summit is, and will continue to be, the front door of the madhouse. We mods do our best to keep too much mud from being tracked in, but we don't want pure civility and calm. We encourage TACTFUL rough play. We are still playing EVE.
New folks should hang out in OOC channel. The Summit is encouraged as a starting place for IC, but it's is not a training room with soft walls. Starting out in the Summit is akin to learning to swim by being fired into the deep end of a pool with a cannon. I, for one, value this sort of thing. Others are not forced to believe the same.
Other issues raised in this thread, like moderator scarcity, are valid, and I'm looking into various solutions. Serious suggestions are welcomed and encouraged..
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I'd discuss PF news items IC there... but they're rather thin on the ground.
Neither re-hashing the PF background nor public character development of my rather private character appeal.
So what's left? Listening to people jabbering away about nonsense/capsuleer private life gossip. Meh.
Because people are utterly reliant on CCP or the ISD to spew out IC news articles. :\
There are plenty of folks doing their own news articles on an IC perspective, or at least there were -- Arcadia News Network was notable, though I'm unsure where that stands just now after Ashar Incorporated returned from being in stasis, and there's those Tech4 people who were on the IGS recently.
Failing that? Make your own news. Think of something that could have reasonable happened on a planet or station, and discuss. It's a big cluster; use some creativity.
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This wasn't intelligent, intellectual debate, which does happen there on a fairly regular basis, maybe just not ones that you Seri, want to talk about.
I envy you, in all my eve life I have maybe barely seen 2 or 3 of these intellectual debates on this channel. :/
Coming from someone on the new end of things (less than a year)
I barely spend a minute in The Summit, just to see if it's changed.
It hasn't.
I keep looking for active RP channels, and though we have a very nice list going...they're all silent.
if anyone actually wants to start up a place to discuss RP in EVE in a neutral IC environment that isn't about lurking, please contact Techie Kanenald....I'd be interested.
This world is seriously too beautiful to give up on RP....but I'm very, very close.
I consider the Summit channel far worse than the IGS personally. The quality of the RP done here is barely even RP for me (thats not a "your doing it wrong", its just my opinion, im not telling people acting here daily to do it otherwise, especially if they are happy with it). We even see characters that are apparently Linux based AIs of some kind, and all the other things that have been listed above (the facepalming meme, etc).
Now then, all the RP channels are silent because most of us - here - that are interested in something else and more PF oriented than this "IC coated" OOC blabble are silent and do absolutely NOTHING to create storylines and bring stuff on the table, and as I said above, I am the first one not doing it too. Because as I told it countless times everyone keeps RPing in his/her own little corner with his/her factional friends, except on... the Summit. -_-
Now, I have been told that I am doing it wrong if I am looking for this on public channels, and that I should instead look for a network of relationships to RP with, and blablabla. Well, thats now what I have been doing since then and thats even worse, especially as it actually tends to drive people even more in their little corners, isolated from everyone. My only and last resort would be to directly contact people OOC to ask them if they would be interested in something to happen between characters and that kind of OOC driven stuff. I hate that, there is no taste in already planned RP where everything is written.
It annoys me a lot because I have been on Eve for 5 years, and at least 2 of them (the last ones) have been only due to RP, or I would have left since looooong.
On another note, I have create the channel you are looking for several months ago (New Eden Infosphere). It is mostly silent too. Other attempts have been tried before, like the NEA. Same result, even if it worked rather well at the beginning (because we still had an active community and also PF regular news).
a neutral IC environment
I'm not sure such a thing is possible. ;-)
It is, it is. ^^
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... Well, thats now what I have been doing since then and thats even worse, especially as it actually tends to drive people even more in their little corners, isolated from everyone. My only and last resort would be to directly contact people OOC to ask them if they would be interested in something to happen between characters and that kind of OOC driven stuff. I hate that, there is no taste in already planned RP where everything is written ...
Hey! I like my corner, its quiet, and nobody argues with me, and tells me that I am dong it wrong.
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I am not telling people to stop playing how they like to do it, just stating facts on my side of things.
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...everyone's characters perceives each other as an adversary.
Perceives? Everyone is everyone else's adversary. You're not going to get around that.
What? Says who and why?
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Jade:
Your ban from The Summit probably came from your repeated removals from the OOC Channel, as we tend to have a degree of parity in both channels, ban-wise.
The suggestion that the RP community has been 'schism-ed' by this is questionable at best.
That said, the grudges you refer to are undeniable.
Former moderators of these channels, without getting too specific, have sometimes carried such grudges with a visible fervor.
That, along with several other issues raised in this thread, sent to my mailbox, and filling the channels themselves over the last few weeks, has me wanting to shake things up.
Over the next couple of days, I'll be purging the operator lists of inactive players, hiring on new moderators (hopefully in adequate numbers and timezone coverages) and slashing the ban lists considerably, for both channels.
There's been a lot of attempts recently by us bitter vets to re-approach the idea of the RP community. BackStage itself was a successful effort at this. No reason we can't give things a shot.
Folks who are being welcomed back should be advised, of course, that a mod may re-institute some bans based on not much more than a whim. The waters should probably be eased into before being tested too strongly. ;)
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...everyone's characters perceives each other as an adversary.
Perceives? Everyone is everyone else's adversary. You're not going to get around that.
What? Says who and why?
Everyone
Versus
Everyone, ma'am. :)
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*snip* No reason we can't give things a shot. *snip*
Thank you Graelyn!
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...everyone's characters perceives each other as an adversary.
Perceives? Everyone is everyone else's adversary. You're not going to get around that.
What? Says who and why?
Everyone
Versus
Everyone, ma'am. :)
Ha! Fair enough. I meant ideological foes with whom your character has a personal hatred for.
But you know, I think the bigger problem is there's no incentive for interaction between people beyond wanting to kill people. No one builds business partnerships or trade deals, or something cooperative that has some impact in space.
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[mod]Thread cleaned a bit. Please remember that if you have issues with the way someone runs any in game organization, it is probably better to not make accusations, as it serves essentially no constructive purpose. Similarly if you have issues with another player IG, for whatever reason, it isn't acceptable to insult them or bait them.We appreciate everyone keeping the discussion on-topic and respectful.[/mod]
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Jade:
Your ban from The Summit probably came from your repeated removals from the OOC Channel, as we tend to have a degree of parity in both channels, ban-wise.
The suggestion that the RP community has been 'schism-ed' by this is questionable at best.
I was saying that this kind of partial moderation and feuding doesn't help really. Obviously it would not be the whole of the problem - but its undeniable that if I (as the leader of an RP faction in Eve) tell my friends and comrades that X channel is run by people motivated by feuds etc) it won't help people to explore those places.
That said, the grudges you refer to are undeniable.
Former moderators of these channels, without getting too specific, have sometimes carried such grudges with a visible fervor.
That, along with several other issues raised in this thread, sent to my mailbox, and filling the channels themselves over the last few weeks, has me wanting to shake things up.
Well thats good to hear and I think its long overdue.
Over the next couple of days, I'll be purging the operator lists of inactive players, hiring on new moderators (hopefully in adequate numbers and timezone coverages) and slashing the ban lists considerably, for both channels. There's been a lot of attempts recently by us bitter vets to re-approach the idea of the RP community. BackStage itself was a successful effort at this. No reason we can't give things a shot. Folks who are being welcomed back should be advised, of course, that a mod may re-institute some bans based on not much more than a whim. The waters should probably be eased into before being tested too strongly. ;)
Well I think moderation by whim should probably be avoided. But it is a generally positive step and I'll be happy to try the waters again in a respectful manner.
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a neutral IC environment
I'm not sure such a thing is possible. ;-)
It is, it is. ^^
Could you explain how? Or perhaps what you mean by "neutral"?
I'm thinking hard about this again. I've been asked a couple of times to moderate "neutral" channels IC, and it usually seems to go with an expectation of "being respectful of the opinions of characters who wish to see my character's people forcibly converted, enslaved or asploded". Mata is remarkably forbearing when she's a guest, and has a history of personal contacts with people from all over the spectrum, but hosting something public which can be a vehicle for hatespeech against the things she works for, and where she's supposed to put up with that, isn't something I can easily reconcile with the character. She's not a Gallente, with their "free speech is an undoubted virtue".
(There's an ongoing tension, by the way, between "be welcoming; grow; let more role payers in" and "you employed who?- so Mata now has dubious judgement and loyalty, right?".)
I've said before that one of the very few events that I might imagine us all attending is some kind of advanced pod trade show or conference: somewhere where you have to go because you can't afford to let the others get ahead of you.
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I see the Summit as more of a 'hang out'. Nothing too serious or heavy just a bunch of people hanging out and chatting about whatever. That's not to say there isn't room for serious or heavy subjects in the summit, just that there are alternatives.
Personally I don't RP there much on Simca unless I just want to veg out and have a bit of fun or chit chat with some of her friends that aren't in some of the other channels.
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I think 'hangout' nails it pretty well.
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I'd discuss PF news items IC there... but they're rather thin on the ground.
Neither re-hashing the PF background nor public character development of my rather private character appeal.
So what's left? Listening to people jabbering away about nonsense/capsuleer private life gossip. Meh.
Because people are utterly reliant on CCP or the ISD to spew out IC news articles. :\
There are plenty of folks doing their own news articles on an IC perspective, or at least there were -- Arcadia News Network was notable, though I'm unsure where that stands just now after Ashar Incorporated returned from being in stasis, and there's those Tech4 people who were on the IGS recently.
Failing that? Make your own news. Think of something that could have reasonable happened on a planet or station, and discuss. It's a big cluster; use some creativity.
CBA with those who deny that non-official news 'nevar happened' if it's inconvenient. Which is sometimes understandable given god-moding.
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CBA with those who deny that non-official news 'nevar happened' if it's inconvenient. Which is sometimes understandable given god-moding.
>Complains about not having news.
>"CBA" making some news.
The whole "inconvenient thus never happened" thing is seen from time to time with the ISD news too. Your choice; just not one that I can make sense of.
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Summit???
oshit, I've been neglecting Meb's bitching/antagonizing/seduction techniques in favour of playing the game :bash:
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"I read a thing..."
is how I used to start conversations that were intended to allow people to talk about their planets or cultures.
"I read a thing that said Gallente fashion people say glass dresses are passe" or some such.
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a neutral IC environment
I'm not sure such a thing is possible. ;-)
It is, it is. ^^
Could you explain how? Or perhaps what you mean by "neutral"?
I'm thinking hard about this again. I've been asked a couple of times to moderate "neutral" channels IC, and it usually seems to go with an expectation of "being respectful of the opinions of characters who wish to see my character's people forcibly converted, enslaved or asploded". Mata is remarkably forbearing when she's a guest, and has a history of personal contacts with people from all over the spectrum, but hosting something public which can be a vehicle for hatespeech against the things she works for, and where she's supposed to put up with that, isn't something I can easily reconcile with the character. She's not a Gallente, with their "free speech is an undoubted virtue".
(There's an ongoing tension, by the way, between "be welcoming; grow; let more role payers in" and "you employed who?- so Mata now has dubious judgement and loyalty, right?".)
I've said before that one of the very few events that I might imagine us all attending is some kind of advanced pod trade show or conference: somewhere where you have to go because you can't afford to let the others get ahead of you.
It depends of the channel itself. The Summit would hardly be considered as neutral atm, and I am not even sure this is possible indeed.
But the channel I created for discussions around culture, knowledge, world building and stuff like this (and that is mostly silent like all the other ones), is strictly neutral, and I do not think that I am wrong to state that it is true (when I am here at least, I am the only admin). It is neutral in the sense that it does not allow censorship, nor has any political affiliation. People lurking in, have some, of course though. Anyway, this is basically a library gathering EVERYTHING possible in New Eden. How can a free library in Yulai allowing people to read and discuss of everything they want as long as that remains a discussion (and not a heated debate) be something else than neutral ?
You might argue that the owner is not neutral, which is probably true, though, but if the purpose of the channel is respected I do not see how it could be something else than neutral. Or maybe if we consider that the channel is not neutral toward agressive stances and bigotery/prejudices (which is opposed to knowledge), but well...
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How can a free library in Yulai allowing people to read and discuss of everything they want as long as that remains a discussion (and not a heated debate) be something else than neutral ?
Does the library allow people to bring their slaves and Khumaaks?
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The best way (IMO) to get interesting IC discussion of PF is to start them yourself.
The best way to start it yourself is simply ask other characters (relatively open) questions.
I've put it into practice tonight in the Summit, and I believe it worked fairly well.
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CBA with those who deny that non-official news 'nevar happened' if it's inconvenient. Which is sometimes understandable given god-moding.
>Complains about not having news.
>"CBA" making some news.
The whole "inconvenient thus never happened" thing is seen from time to time with the ISD news too. Your choice; just not one that I can make sense of.
> Disagree with someone
> Put a strawman of their argument into bulletpoints
It isn't for us to move PF of the NPC factions along, that's CCP's task. It's something we cannot do ourselves* - , even if we had nothing better to do with our time than try.
We RP in the universe, CCP progress the background story to keep that universe interesting. Or used to anyway.
* Even when our actions or stories are absorbed into PF it's by CCP's whim
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> Disagree with someone
> Put a strawman of their argument into bulletpoints
It isn't for us to move PF of the NPC factions along, that's CCP's task. It's something we cannot do ourselves* - , even if we had nothing better to do with our time than try.
We RP in the universe, CCP progress the background story to keep that universe interesting. Or used to anyway.
This is rapidly redirecting the thread, but I'm not trying to be a bitch about things. Why is Lou's kind of thing, "I read / heard / was told than on <such and such a planet / station>, this happened" outside players' scope? I guess I don't see why news has to be vast, game changing stuff (hell, I found that to be a problem with a lot of CCP's later news items) -- and I certainly wasn't making a strawman as highlighting where I was finding confusion. v0v
EDIT: To make this a more general topic: what do people actually think of this? I always found RP that refused anything not explicitly stated in PF kind of stale, given PF's currently relatively narrow scope -- of course, YMMV. Part of the fun for me is taking the constraints of PF and what's already known, along with a small aspect of a small piece of a huge universe, and playing around to see what can be come up with.
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EDIT: To make this a more general topic: what do people actually think of this? I always found RP that refused anything not explicitly stated in PF kind of stale, given PF's currently relatively narrow scope
It depends a lot.
Making up something that applies to some small group somewhere is awesome and useful.
Making up something that applies to galatic events or should have a major impact is pretty annoying to me.
For example, we recommend new Minmatar RPers to make up stuff about their clan - customs, rituals, festivities, quirks, etc. - but never about their tribe. "My clan has this custom that we ..." is great. "There is this Sebiestor custom that ..." is not.
I was once asked on a public channel whether Arkady knows some "Sebiestor customs regarding XYZ". I went OOC and told that there is no PF on Sebiestor customs, and I surely will not invent some - but if there are some, Arkady would know them most likely. I can't simply invent them, because that would force every other Sebiestor to either accept my idea of "Sebiestor custom" or simply contradicting Arkady, saying that Arkady has no idea about "Sebiestor custom". Inventing something about a clan would have been perfectly fine.
I wouldn't talk about "Gallente fashion" as a whole, but it's perfectly cool to talk about that fashion show back on your home planet. (Well, fashion is inconsequential enough not to matter either way, but for the sake of argument here...)
I think the dispute between the two of you is mostly about the scale of news. There are some differences and discussions (e.g. what proportion of slaves was *really* released in the emancipation act, to mention a recent topic) that players can not simply make up. CCP has to put out the PF for that. On the other hand, minor stuff should be made up by players. That's what we're here for after all. (Preferably also news that actually happen in space, not just on IGS...)
There's also some weird RP thing going on that I have not yet understood, about players simply making up scientific research or evidence, presenting it as such, and then hoping CCP accepts it (Sansha/w-space related stuff). Seems to be "normal" to some, but the concept is totally alien to me. I haven't really understood it, either, so I can't even describe what I mean that well :-|
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I agree with the general message -- it's why I specifically mentioned small aspects of small chunks; saying "the Sanmatar recently released a statement saying x" or whatever is far from that.
I also tend to get a bit confused at the idea of a lot of Arek'jaalan "research" in particular; the things that are, IC, testable, but of course from an OOC angle not, just often seem to me like people inventing figures and results and seeing if CCP rolls with it. The stuff that's more hypothesising, that's fine: there's little difference between what's done OOC and IC there.
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How can a free library in Yulai allowing people to read and discuss of everything they want as long as that remains a discussion (and not a heated debate) be something else than neutral ?
Does the library allow people to bring their slaves and Khumaaks?
It is a virtual place, but yes.
Then, it is moderated on a case by case basis, which is not perfectly neutral (it just cant be). So if we are speaking of something neutral (100% pure absolute neutral), ofc, I do not think you can create anything that is, be it in real life or whatever. Neutral is a rather vague word.
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I guess I don't see why news has to be vast, game changing stuff (hell, I found that to be a problem with a lot of CCP's later news items) -- and I certainly wasn't making a strawman as highlighting where I was finding confusion. v0v
EDIT: To make this a more general topic: what do people actually think of this? I always found RP that refused anything not explicitly stated in PF kind of stale, given PF's currently relatively narrow scope -- of course, YMMV. Part of the fun for me is taking the constraints of PF and what's already known, along with a small aspect of a small piece of a huge universe, and playing around to see what can be come up with.
Yeah fair enough.
I'm usually content with discussing capsuleer events IC instead of inventing planetary goings-on to start conversation for the small-scale stuff. I miss the wider storyline progressing. Live events are ok but aren't exactly catholic in their scope.
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Summit RP - does anyone actually care about IC discussions of PF anymore?
No, the Summit is not the right place for those. Small group conversations and many-to-many communication work differently. Try other channels.
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No, the Summit is not the right place for those. Small group conversations and many-to-many communication work differently. Try other channels.
I don't think there's any reason the Summit can't be used for RP that plays with EVE's universe more -- and "try other channels" is an awkward thing. Lots of the ones that might be of interest to my character, say, are like drawing blood from a stone when it comes to stirring conversation in, regrettably. The New Eden Assembly isn't a bad example, in that it had a brief surge of activity but now seems to be largely quiet again.
The ones that my character wouldn't be especially interested in, I can't comment much on, but I don't hear particularly favourable things about those channels, at least as regards activity.
Long story short, "why not?". A lot of people seem to be assuming that PF is only the vast, sweeping, political ideas. What's wrong with discussing individual levels of individual stations, using PF as a starting point, for instance?
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Long story short, "why not?".
The Summit has a large following, it's more like a meeting nexus. In a sizeable group of people, it has been observed that sex talk, group think and vilification of external enemies (http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html) always emerge, like others in this thread have described. So I think it's ultimately a question of scale (http://www.shirky.com/writings/community_scale.html). The kind of PF discussion I understand is being longed for here works best in small groups and that's where I would go looking for it.
When it comes to the awkwardness of the small channels - well if no one is running them, they do tend to get silent. When I think about the small channels I know to be active, it's not difficult to name the characters who are putting in the effort to keep them vibrant. So instead of trying to turn the cacophony of the Summit into something more intimate, why not actually take one's energy and topics to the small group of people one wants to discuss with in the first place?
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Because, as I said, these mysterious public but small-following channels where input actually reliably elicits responses seem to have gone under my radar altogether.
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I take full blame for Heiian's slow decline. :oops:
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I take full blame for Heiian's slow decline. :oops:
I still enjoy it, on the rare occasions I'm around. (Er, Maris does, anyway. It's a refuge from The Summit.)
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Heiian definitely does bring back some fun memories.
Like the time Seri got booted and complained about Morwen not being removed despite her being a pirate. xD
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I take full blame for Heiian's slow decline. :oops:
You can't take all the blame. Just have not had time between RL and LDIS to get anything really going with Heiian. A lesson learned is that non-corp/allaince Organizations really need leadership other than actual corp CEOs.
Granted this is slightly tagent to the original discussion.
Heiian definitely does bring back some fun memories.
Like the time Seri got booted and complained about Morwen not being removed despite her being a pirate. xD
Heiian is an IC channel with IC rules and reactions. I, the player of Dex Nederland, operate the Heiian College (and Congress) through the character Dex Nederland. Dex Nederland is a founder of the Heiian Society. If I stop playing Dex Nederland, I stop operating the Heiian College.
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Long story short, "why not?". A lot of people seem to be assuming that PF is only the vast, sweeping, political ideas. What's wrong with discussing individual levels of individual stations, using PF as a starting point, for instance?
Well, there's not. I enjoy those kind of IC interactions. But why would my character discuss such things with diplomatic contacts, political enemies, or sociopathic criminals (the way he views the vast majority of people on the Summit)? Why would anybody?
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Well, there's not. I enjoy those kind of IC interactions. But why would my character discuss such things with diplomatic contacts, political enemies, or sociopathic criminals (the way he views the vast majority of people on the Summit)? Why would anybody?
There are plenty of characters capable of being polite and cordial with people they find generally despicable. I just found it odd for someone to go "the Summit is not the place for it" rather than "the Summit is only sometimes suitable for it, for different characters". v0v
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What they need to do is fire TonyG, scrap all current narrative plans and build a new one from the ground up that makes a damn lick of sense.
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What they need to do is fire TonyG, scrap all current narrative plans and build a new one from the ground up that makes a damn lick of sense.
Tony's not in charge of it, and that's not how it works :psyccp:
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What they need to do is fire TonyG, scrap all current narrative plans and build a new one from the ground up that makes a damn lick of sense.
Tony's not in charge of it, and that's not how it works :psyccp:
I love having Shae be the voice of reason amongst all the rampant CCP hate.
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I love having Shae be the voice of reason amongst all the rampant CCP hate.
Yup. Things seldom work like the internet thinks they work.
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Well, they need to whatever the fuck gets us a coherent, sensible narrative that isn't full of ass-pulls, Deus Ex Machinae and Space Hitlers.
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Right, this has been bothering me and a few others for quite a while now. The Summit these days feels nothing more than an IC version of the OOC channel. No one actually wants to debate anything about the PF, mundane cultural tropes, and so forth. ...
Why would anyone like to join a large chatroom IC (which is essentially what the summit is since there is no holo presence) in order to debate mundane cultural tropes?
[EDIT: By that I mean an IC reason. I know it may be fun OOC to discuss this, but I don't see an IC reason to].
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I dont know ? When I speak with RL people of other countries or cultures, I happen quite often to be quite curious about several little things here and there.
What ? I am the only one to care ? Okay.
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Usually that kind of stuff is approached after a friendship has been formed.
You don't ask about cultural things from random strangers, they usually feel judged if something like that is approached as a subject.
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The chat rooms (out of game) that I frequent all have a topic that connects the people on them. Like an OS you use, a programming language you use, or the city/location you're in. "The Summit" exists primarily for OOC reasons: "The place we can RP". This is good, as it brings people together who want to RP, but it does not provide an intrinsic topic to RP *about*.
And RL channels all deviate wildly on the topic (including jokes that the channel name is the one topic we never talk about), but it still provides some thing that connects everyone on the channel.
My character does not particularly feel connected to the other characters on The Summit. Quite to the contrary, for some, actually.
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Look I know there arent many but some people need to stop complaining about how RP is dead and actually attempt to breathe some life into it.
For instance, use places other than summit.
Not habitually, just once or twice.
Just walk in and see what happens.
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and actually attempt to breathe some life into it.
I've got a few pokers in the fire. Hopefully I can find the time to make one or two of the projects bare fruit.
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Look I know there arent many but some people need to stop complaining about how RP is dead and actually attempt to breathe some life into it.
For instance, use places other than summit.
Not habitually, just once or twice.
Just walk in and see what happens.
Well that is what I do. Not 24/24 mind you. I see a few ones doing it too. But you end up turning in circles pretty quick when you are not many.
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I'd consider myself to be "on the frige" of RP in eve. With that in mind let me share my observations of what eve RP looks like to me from where I sit.
The Summit - I find it's main problem is being over-moderated, where slight insults against women, people with different views and more recently body-modders, get dealt with overly severely, very much limiting the undercurrent of tension that allows for a more smooth and engaging RP. In my opinion it limits the chances that people will take on serious discussions and or ships into space about insults when at the first sight of disagreement offending parties get muted/modded/excluded. The line here is not as fine as it is made out to be but seems like mods/people like to ride in as a white knight at the first sign of "trouble," demanding instant mod action instead of letting things develop more organically. (As is the case in many channels.)
ie,
Person A says something offensive/intolerant/uninformed about person X (or idea x or whatever) and gets into an argument with person b and c about that comment. While person X takes the insult and broods/retaliates. With person x's response now people d and e get involved, and suddenly there is a deeper conversation or argument going on. Mods only need step in when the fight becomes something silly like short statements of "you are a #$%^&" vs longer argumentative statements or discussions from varying view points. Additionally if persons involved take deep offense to that kind of talk; there could be escalation or even challenges to duels, something I think Capsuleers as a whole would be far more liable to do given their immortality/immorality, but we just don't see that often.
This at least would increase my enjoyment of the channel as of right now I refrain from saying anything into the channel for fear of hurting feelings even if my remarks are hardly mean or insulting.
Factional/"Other" RP venues - Like TLG, Mercy Keep, or any single aligned meeting place. Even if they are "open to the public" the overall vibe I get from these places is that not all are welcome. As a Anarchist it's even more difficult because just "innocently" showing up at one of these places seems unlikely, and because of this I find that I tend to RP with the same two to three people all the time instead of breaking into a wider or broader base of RP partners as it were. Now this might be my own hang up and I might be more welcome in more places than I suspect, but by-in-large I get the feeling that the corner of the universe I do RP in is pretty much as far as Logan can go due to his alignment.
The above make it difficult to for me to generate any real meaningful "new" RP into the community. Please tell me if I am doing it wrong with regards to places Logan could go to hang out but that is my honest take-away from most places. Obviously I otherwise frequent The Hideaway, TLG and other blackalley back door bar's meeting places that have uniformly low to light activity.
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Right, this has been bothering me and a few others for quite a while now. The Summit these days feels nothing more than an IC version of the OOC channel. No one actually wants to debate anything about the PF, mundane cultural tropes, and so forth.
Anyone who has interacted with me both IC and OOC knows full well that I have an interest in how all four factions interact with each other, and approach different matters. I wrote an entire piece about the Caldari Navy (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2417.0) a while ago, and how a Caldari family goes shopping (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1632.msg20278#msg20278), despite being a Gallente RPer.
So, in the Summit, I seek to use Seriphyn to explore these mundane things with other characters. He might be abrasive, but if my OOC interest in the EVE fiction is anything to go by, he is also IC interested in his own off-hand fashion. The problem is, is that the vibe I get is that people are generally quite oversensitive, and always shout down Seriphyn for his abrasive nature etc etc. I mean, come across as a dick, it's not surprising, but the thing that stuck out to me today was when a character actually asked Seriphyn to be banned from the channel without breaking any rules, while the same character actually broke the rules by swearing and namecalling. This happens all the time; Seriphyn never swears at others or namecalls, yet other people do it all the time (And to each other).
From how I see things, I'm just using the channel as it is (the Summit, after all). But maybe I should just accept how it is these days. To give you an example of how it sometimes can be an RP'd version of OOC...
aaa > I just agreed to a 1v1
aaa > And the blob.
bbb > It was still 1v1.
bbb > 1blobv1notblob.
Character bbb in this instance, having asked them on the aside, actually mistook the Summit for the OOC channel. But yeah, point is, where did the PF debates go? Why is trying to stimulate an in-universe discussion not done anymore? I appreciate that Seriphyn comes across as jerky, but then that's rendered moot when other characters directly insult him with curse words and names, when he's never done any of the sort himself.
Putting my character on the aside completely, the problem still remains. Might be that whole "no new content from CCP" thing going on, but that's no excuse for players to not generate their own material through RP. That's what I'm trying to push for.
Of note on the general state of the Summit...someone said to me that the 11-year old Anette often outclasses a lot of the Summit inhabitants while still realistically acting like an 11-year old. Go figure.
I agree with this post.
When I came to the game back in January and began exploring RP, I stumbled into the Summit channel and from the name expected it to be a place of cultural, political and economic debate which is something that I as a player and my character Kemekk would be interested in. After spending a few months in the Summit, I realized that those types of discussions rarely come about, and it frustrates me.
I expected the Summit channel to be sort of like a Roman senate meeting, where people debate in a respectable manner. As far as I know, there is one other channel that operates like this but it is sparsely populated.
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Yes. It's called NEA.
And it's never active for a reason. A shame, too.
However, as with a ton of posts in this thread, the problem with The Summit seems to be that it wasn't what you expected. I should probably remove mentions of politics, debate and the like from the MOTD.
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what i've seen, is that whenever someone starts up a discussion about certain things, which a lot of the time are the defining characteristic of their chosen group, then the same handful of people begin to act disruptively, to force an end to that discussion, for reasons that they admit in OOC channel to be OOC-motivated.
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Are you suggesting we can't have nice things? 8)
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probably
just petty, petty things, like, someone that was some kind of new blood raider person started saying something about their interpretations of scriptures, and some dude started ranting on and on about how god doesn't exist and so on and so forth, then in the OOC channel started going on about how the blood raider person (who wasn't in ooc channel) should stop doing blood raider stuff, because they had a grudge against Revan and also religious people, because of whatever happened whenever. Which was entirely irrelevant to anything, particularly when the new blood raidery person was doing something different to whatever it was that captain grudgebearer had objections to in the first place.
it's like, the same handful of people go "Oh look, a new player, lets tell them not to RP"
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... The best thing in this situation, is to chuck a mail with some log snippets - from both channels - to several of the moderators. Even if some are online, they might not be paying attention to either channel, and might miss it.
If they are around, say something. If it is something that bothers you, that's enough to merit reporting it to a moderator if you think it is disruptive and counterproductive to RP.
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However, as with a ton of posts in this thread, the problem with The Summit seems to be that it wasn't what you expected. I should probably remove mentions of politics, debate and the like from the MOTD.
That would probably help with the confusion. I'm not really sure what the Summit is about anymore, since I thought the MOTD was accurate.
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It is what it's always been: IGS Live.
The front foyer of the madhouse.
For better or for worse.
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Are you suggesting we can't have nice things? 8)
“All good things must come to an end, but all bad things can continue forever.”
More on topic.
If a context is set for people to get involved in a discussion, more people will get involved. I think these are possible reasons for low uptake:
- Insufficient context for character to get involved. e.g. many threads are quite analytical and would therefore attract those willing to spend time thinking about the subject. There is a lack of purpose behind them, unless it is inherent in a character to answer these questions. and how, outside of philosophical circles, are such questions relevant? What proportion of a given player population devotes time away from making isk or killing things to matters of deep cerebral discussion?
I think these are possible ways of increasing uptake:
- IC discussions of PF may be more interesting to characters if there are consequences. E.g. We will decide whether this faction is good based on our interpretation of the evidence, if they are bad we will go and destroy them together.
- The matter of PF is relevant to the audience.
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[spoiler=VULGAR LANGUAGE AHEAD!](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7164/6508774239_729a7a3497_b.jpg)[/spoiler]
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Yes. It's called NEA.
And it's never active for a reason. A shame, too.
Plainly out of curiosity, what would that reason be?
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Jovian shenanigans.
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Yes. It's called NEA.
And it's never active for a reason. A shame, too.
Plainly out of curiosity, what would that reason be?
Most people are less interested in more serious/politically oriented discussions.
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Yes. It's called NEA.
And it's never active for a reason. A shame, too.
Plainly out of curiosity, what would that reason be?
Most people are less interested in more serious/politically oriented discussions.
... so what was the point of the Summit in the first place?
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Yes. It's called NEA.
And it's never active for a reason. A shame, too.
Plainly out of curiosity, what would that reason be?
Most people are less interested in more serious/politically oriented discussions.
... so what was the point of the Summit in the first place?
I been asking myself that same question a lot lately.
Maybe its just personal bias when a majority of rp'ers act like 0.0 is unimportant or that either FW makes you a monster or something to be dismissed as a an exercise in futility.
Or for that matter since we are not getting any new stories on the EvE site it makes anything as a player I can do feel IC useless and unchanging.
Thats not why I started playing EvE, I play EvE because I can get 50 people working toward something and change a corner of the universe.
Whats weird though is the rp community treats the universe is completely unchanging. Any actions you take is like blowing into the wind.
This is frustrating. :bash:
My complaints on the attitude of the summit aside I love the place when the above in not the case. There are many spirited conversations and personal plots I like seeing come out. I can't wait to come back and continue working on my major projects again both in and out of character.
I do feel however that the summit could do with some reform. :P
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Yes. It's called NEA.
And it's never active for a reason. A shame, too.
Plainly out of curiosity, what would that reason be?
Most people are less interested in more serious/politically oriented discussions.
... so what was the point of the Summit in the first place?
I been asking myself that same question a lot lately.
Maybe its just personal bias when a majority of rp'ers act like 0.0 is unimportant or that either FW makes you a monster or something to be dismissed as a an exercise in futility.
Or for that matter since we are not getting any new stories on the EvE site it makes anything as a player I can do feel IC useless and unchanging.
Thats not why I started playing EvE, I play EvE because I can get 50 people working toward something and change a corner of the universe.
Whats weird though is the rp community treats the universe is completely unchanging. Any actions you take is like blowing into the wind.
This is frustrating. :bash:
My complaints on the attitude of the summit aside I love the place when the above in not the case. There are many spirited conversations and personal plots I like seeing come out. I can't wait to come back and continue working on my major projects again both in and out of character.
I do feel however that the summit could do with some reform. :P
Well, sandbox though it may be, there are plenty of places where EVE is unchanging. FW is one of those areas. It's difficult to RP success when CCP won't allow you to accomplish anything.
As far as political forums, they're a worthy idea, but there is little room for them in-game. Get enough RPers together, there's going to be an argument about whose faction is better than whose. The only way to prevent that downfall is to use moderators or spokespeople, and that gets too complicated. As soon as things are complicated enough to take organizational effort, the players shirk and stop using the channel.
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I suppose that is fair to say.
Holding space is not an easy thing to do however. Things that take booth skill, teamwork and corp bonds should be praised though. This isn't or shouldn't be limited to null sec.
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As far as political forums, they're a worthy idea, but there is little room for them in-game. Get enough RPers together, there's going to be an argument about whose faction is better than whose. The only way to prevent that downfall is to use moderators or spokespeople, and that gets too complicated. As soon as things are complicated enough to take organizational effort, the players shirk and stop using the channel.
Exactly.
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Maybe its just personal bias when a majority of rp'ers act like 0.0 is unimportant ...
Uh, is 0.0 important? Mostly nothing that happens out there affects my character except as it drives different entities to retreat to lowsec from time to time where they shoot at us and vice versa.
Why should my character care?
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Unimportant is a bit strong and exagerated, but it surely does not affect a lot of us. And that is clearly a secondary thing compared to PF and NPC factions related stuff, for most RPers.
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“The Summit” was my first experience in Eve RP. :eek:
I don’t frequent the channel anymore as one of its moderators and I are on the outs.
That being said, not having “The Summit” to rely on for my “IC Fix” of Eve RP, pushed me into other more rewarding RP environments and improved my overall RP experience.
After all there are only so many rapes, murders, suicides, and drunken ramblings one can survive.
But still to be honest on occasion there is good RP in The Summit, I have seen it.
It’s just too bad other stuff gets in the way.
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And I miss having a go at "Nice uncle James" with Des. :|
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I don’t frequent the channel anymore as one of its moderators and I are on the outs.
That's a terrible reason to cut off an avenue of RP.
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As far as political forums, they're a worthy idea, but there is little room for them in-game. Get enough RPers together, there's going to be an argument about whose faction is better than whose. The only way to prevent that downfall is to use moderators or spokespeople, and that gets too complicated. As soon as things are complicated enough to take organizational effort, the players shirk and stop using the channel.
Exactly.
But why wouldn't enemies argue about stuff rather than enjoying a brandy and a cigar together whilst discussing the weather?
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As far as political forums, they're a worthy idea, but there is little room for them in-game. Get enough RPers together, there's going to be an argument about whose faction is better than whose. The only way to prevent that downfall is to use moderators or spokespeople, and that gets too complicated. As soon as things are complicated enough to take organizational effort, the players shirk and stop using the channel.
Exactly.
But why wouldn't enemies argue about stuff rather than enjoying a brandy and a cigar together whilst discussing the weather?
That's sort of the point, actually.
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As far as political forums, they're a worthy idea, but there is little room for them in-game. Get enough RPers together, there's going to be an argument about whose faction is better than whose. The only way to prevent that downfall is to use moderators or spokespeople, and that gets too complicated. As soon as things are complicated enough to take organizational effort, the players shirk and stop using the channel.
Exactly.
But why wouldn't enemies argue about stuff rather than enjoying a brandy and a cigar together whilst discussing the weather?
I think the assumption is that, if you get enough people together, it'll degenerate into a standard, been-done-since-2003, "no u" style arguement - i.e., people useing lots of red herrings, random insults, and long-since-recycled arguements, rather than an honest discussion about the realistic "good" and "bad" points of a give faction.
EDIT: To clarify the above, it's not that I feel such arguements are bad. Rather, it's that nobody's invented a new arguement in ages - most of the arguements I see barely touch on some of the most recent PF, preferring instead to go with the old "...well you bombed our planets with chemical weapons!" "But you enslaved us first!" etc etc. over and over again.
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The thing is a lot of the old arguments have never been resolved. Factions still at war, Sansha's Nation still enslaving the galaxy, Amarrians still wanting to enslave the entire galaxy, does God exist, does God agree with the Amarrians, are all Gallente just drug abusing sexual deviants and have the Civire really regressed backwards to looking more like apes?
The point is, people's characters are built around these things, they aren't going to change their opinion or belief system because "That's old, find something new to believe passionately in." Yes the arguments go around in full circle, but every so often something new comes out of it.
And yes while you've "been there, done that 1,001 times" newer players and characters haven't. It's hardly right to dictate what should and shouldn't be debated on the basis of how many times you've seen it happen. If you want a new subject, bring it up yourself to get people interested in it. It doesn't help that the Summit seems to be the only stable constant source of public RP either, I can't honestly think of any other channel that is open to all of New Eden where someone can enter and get involved in IC interaction with the exception of diplomatic channels relating to specific corps and alliances.
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I don’t frequent the channel anymore as one of its moderators and I are on the outs.
That's a terrible reason to cut off an avenue of RP.
Be that as it may and your “opinion” is appreciated. But the frequent threats of preemptive muting that stem from that sour relationship tend to be off putting.
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I don’t frequent the channel anymore as one of its moderators and I are on the outs.
That's a terrible reason to cut off an avenue of RP.
Be that as it may and your “opinion” is appreciated. But the frequent threats of preemptive muting that stem from that sour relationship tend to be off putting.
I believe the best case would be to PM Graelyn evidence of such.
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On the fucking double.
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On the fucking double.
Well to be honest I did ask for your advice and assistance just after the initial occurrence via eve mail. As I didn’t get a reply I didn’t bother, several months later when it occurred again.
The purpose of my original post wasn’t to pass judgment. Simply to answer the question asked, yes the Summit can be an avenue for RP and occasionally a good one, but there are certainly many others.
While I consider the matter closed, ergo I no longer visit “The Summit” I would be happy to discuss it in game.