Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 07 May 2010, 14:43
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So, it'll be a couple of years soon that the Falklands has been occupied by the Arg-...er...that Caldari Prime has been occupied by the State. Now, IRL, things like this take many years to evolve and unfold, so it won't be unrealistic to think it goes on for that long. However, as an EVE player, our metabolism is normally a lot faster than that.
I am trying to think what happens to CP. With the possible resurgence of the Liberal and Practical faction, both are anti-CP occupation, and the chastising of the Patriot faction, what will happen? Will CP be liberated, seeing that the only megacorps occupying CP are Patriots? Wouldn't 2 years of occupation than a flip back be rather unoriginal? A couple of things I think...
- Caldari Prime becomes one of the Dust 514 "NPC battlegrounds", with the Federation attempting liberation using the DUST proxies, as opposed to a much more riskier, full-scale counterattack. (futuristic WW2 Eastern Front anyone?)
- Caldari Prime becomes liberated by normal means, but instead of it just being the status quo, Roden contracts reconstruction and administration to the Liberal faction, such as Ishukone? I think that would be interesting.
It is seeded that this isn't a permanent state of affairs, with Roden pledging to return it (using smoke and mirrors to destabilize the State and Heth could be a means to this end). "For now" in the lvl1 epic arc, and that a "full scale rebellion" is inevitable in the Cities of Refuge chron. The planet is stated to be majority Gallentean, and it would be impossible for the State to displace all of these Gallenteans when they are probably tied in with the key infrastructure; the planet would stop working if they deported all the Gallenteans.
I think a flip back to Gallente would be incredibly *yawn*, and I would like to see something interesting like Ishukone taking administration of CP with Fed oversight...or maybe a Dust 514 battleground. It will be interesting to see what becomes of it.
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Caldari Prime is already liberated, considering it is under the ownership of the Caldari.
Or is that a personal agenda I spot through your wording? :P
I expect it to be under the ownership of the Caldari as it such provides an element of strong tension where conflict can happen at any time. Possibly, as you say, it will be linked with DUST like I expect Intaki will too. Further from a different point of view, CCP seems quite reluctant to remove historical elements that they already have put in place (that station is still on fire...) and CP will keep its current state so newcomers to EVE who read EA can get the same experience as we do now.
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I can't imagine Caldari Prime swapping hands any time soon. It's one of Heth's lynchpins of success, and losing that to the Gallente would damn him politically, despite the patriotic angle he would probably attempt to spin it towards.
Skirmishing with DUST sounds logical. It's hardly a safe place; under military curfew if I'm not mistaken, and, considering the average Gallente citizen's lust for freedom of speech, I'm sure there's no end of people wanting to batter the crap out of some State bodies.
I just want to know what happens if/when that Titan gets destroyed.
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...and if the gallente really try to take CP away from the caldari, well, I guess they can always warp a titan into gal primes orbite and do some dd'ing - which would solve a good portion of the problem :P
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I am pretty certain the titan will stay there.
If for nothing else then as a landmark for noobs to go a see the "end game" of EVE.
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I am trying to think what happens to CP. With the possible resurgence of the Liberal and Practical faction, both are anti-CP occupation...
What? No they aren't. reclaiming the Caldari homeworld has been one of the few points the megacorporations have ever unanimously agreed on.
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the chastising of the Patriot faction
:bash: The Patriots and the Provists are not the same entity.
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Didn't say they were, but the Patriots are supporting the Provists atm, and the Patriots are the only one's committing their forces to the CP occupation.
Hyasyoda criticizes occupation, Practical bloc looks 'visibly uncomfortable' at Patriot rebuttals (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2694&tid=6)
Mens Reppola speaks out against it (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2723&tid=11)
Though it's always interesting to see how externally, Caldari RPers will be like, externally, "Oh it's great etc." but internally they might be more "Hurrr". The dichotomy sticks to notions of Caldari RP in general, and it's cool to see
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...and if the gallente really try to take CP away from the caldari, well, I guess they can always warp a titan into gal primes orbite and do some dd'ing - which would solve a good portion of the problem :P
I do not think it is there for that purpose. It is more sinister than a gun pointed at Gallante Prime. It is actually pointed at Caldari Prime.
"If we can't have it, no one will."
With the possible resurgence of the Liberal and Practical faction, both are anti-CP occupation, and the chastising of the Patriot faction, what will happen? Will CP be liberated, seeing that the only megacorps occupying CP are Patriots? Wouldn't 2 years of occupation than a flip back be rather unoriginal?
They are anti-"continuing to fund what they do not have a large stake in." The Navy and CPD make up a large percentage of the occupation force. The majority of assets on Caldari Prime were acquired by KK, followed by Wirykomi & Lai Dai. The Liberals & Practicals probably would prefer to have assets/holdings of their own worth defending.
If you read the next article (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2720&tid=6), following the report where Hyasyoda criticizes the cost of the occupation:
The current occupation force is for the most part made up of Navy marines and Provist troops, which are protecting infrastructure and population centers. Though they took significant part in the initial invasion, corporate forces have made up a much smaller percentage of the occupation force, generally focused on protecting industrial sites seized and redistributed to the megacorporations. Most of these belong to Kaalakiota, Lai Dai, and Wiyrkomi and report through their corporate chains of command.
The issue for the Liberals & Practicals is that they are funding the expensive difficult defense of other corporations' assets.
So, I disagree with your interpretation that only the Patriot's are defending Caldari Prime.
My personal preference is that CCP begin to work towards ending the forced conflict. As part of it, Luminaire and Algogille are made CONCORD systems, with Gallente Prime and Caldari Prime administered by their respective governments.
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My personal preference is that CCP begin to work towards ending the forced conflict. As part of it, Luminaire and Algogille are made CONCORD systems, with Gallente Prime and Caldari Prime administered by their respective governments.
Now, that is a VERY interesting outcome, though not sure why Algogille would be on that list. The only thing with the conflict coming to an end though is that FW occupancy is a feature that doesn't seem to being removed at any time soon, and with CCP throwing in the auction as a way to escalate the conflict and give Gallenteans something to fight for...
Personally, if we hold onto the systems long enough, CPD invalidate the law and refund the cash...
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though not sure why Algogille would be on that list.
Because Algogille separates Lumanaire from The Citadel. The point is to make it possible for both races to visit and support their homeworlds; rather ineffective if you have to Jump Freighter everything in.
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Why not just share the planet? People from both races inhabit it, and the nature of the world is a shared history.
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Why not just share the planet? People from both races inhabit it, and the nature of the world is a shared history.
It is kind of like saying to an Islamic Palestine and an Israeli that they should share Palestine/Israel.
For the Caldari, it means they really don't get their homeworld back, but lose it to the Gallente by other means. It devalues the world even more to Caldari, because it is admitting that the Gallente have a legitimate claim to the world. In the minds of the Caldari, it makes their homeworld little more than a Gallente colony that they are "allowed" to live on.
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See, tribalism isn't just for the Minmatar.
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Does it really matter, I know historically its all like, "But its our homeworld" But the caldari have been away from CP for so long it is like Earth to everyone in new eden...nice to reminice about in the stories but having no practical use. If the caldari are profit driven, why bother? Maintaining the fleet of that size that deep into hostile territory for a planet isn't really that worth it and can be used for much better purposes, such as shoring defenses in Black Rise, which has much better strategic importance.
*Sorry for the lack of good grammer, tired*
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I imagine the collective honor of the Caldari people compels them to retake their homeworld. If nothing else, it is a galactic embarrassment to their fiercely driven nature.
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I suspect that, like most other capitalists, sheer economic rationality is only part of the picture for the Caldari.
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Does it really matter, I know historically its all like, "But its our homeworld" But the caldari have been away from CP for so long it is like Earth to everyone in new eden...nice to reminice about in the stories but having no practical use. If the caldari are profit driven, why bother? Maintaining the fleet of that size that deep into hostile territory for a planet isn't really that worth it and can be used for much better purposes, such as shoring defenses in Black Rise, which has much better strategic importance.
*Sorry for the lack of good grammer, tired*
Saying that the Caldari are "profit-driven" is like saying that all Americans care about is money, or all French people care about is food. It's a stereotype, and not so much a correct one as one designed to legitimize a claim.
The Caldari have a deep and conservative culture. It's not flashy, like the Gallente, or obvious, like the Amarr. It's more of a "still waters run deep" situation, and Caldari Prime's liberation is the result of a building pressure that wasn't relieved by the government before Tibus Heth: specifically, the desire of the Caldari people to be respected, powerful, and in control of their destinies.
The culture itself could be compared to a funnel - the people are by nature strong, fiercely competitive, and perhaps more prone to violence than other cultures. As such, a strong, rigid set of cultural values (the most consistently conservative in the cluster, I would argue) serves to funnel that aggression and pride into a socially useful format: economic competition and product innovation. This corresponds to the need to maximize the potential of every person in a difficult environment (Caldari Prime) without allowing those powerful drives to destroy fragile communities.
In addition, their strong faith in a Maker and in the spirits of ancestors/animism appears to be a mechanism for ensuring cooperation within their clans. It's difficult to emotionally justify grandpa going out to die in the snow for the sake of the tribe unless one believes that he will still always be with you, just not in body. Taking a cue from Cold Wind, and For the State, I would argue that the Caldari, instead of taking a confrontational approach with the environment (i.e., nature is heartless and cruel), have chosen instead a more positive view (the environment we live in forges us into a stronger people, and forces us to cooperate). This explains, to some extent, the more casual attitude we see Caldari exhibiting towards death in For the State (they'll be with their ancestors and people always) while still maintaining a fiercely competitive nature (something that tends to require a bit of individualism).
Now, the Gallente come along, coerce (according to CCP) the less developed Caldari into a Federation, and then run roughshod over their traditions and culture (Cultural Deliverance Society? Sheesh!). When the Caldari decide to take their toys and go home, the Gallente respond by trying to exterminate their race (and there's no other reasonable explanation for the quotes in FW and the actions in the Chrons).
How would the Caldari feel about this?
Well, first, they've lost the "forge" of their people. The Caldari are somewhat unique in their tie to their homeland, it might even be considered similar to the Jews and Israel. Moreover, such a loss shames them in the eyes of their ancestors, just as you might feel a bit embarrassed at crashing your parent's car. Magnify that by about a thousand times, and you'll have the Caldari response to such a loss. It's also likely that they feel as though they have failed each other - each generation that grows up separated from their homeland.
Besides that, there's also the wounded pride, and the desire for revenge. Ask the Jews if they've forgotten the Holocaust. Systematic attempts to exterminate a people aren't soon forgotten, and I'd wager money that Germany is still viewed in a pretty dim light by quite a few in Israel. Now, for the Caldari, add to that the fact that the Federation still holds the stance that what they did was perfectly justified, or at least a reasonable reaction to Nouvelle Rouvenour. Add to that the original insults of extreme cultural imperialism and intentional condescension, and you have a recipe for a thousand-year grudge.
But it's not just revenge. Ultimately, I think the Caldari desire for their homeworld comes back to their view of it as a mold for their people. It's a "This is what we are, because of where we came from" sort of thing. You can't tell people that they should leave their home in the hands of an enemy just because that will allow peace. To them, that is peace at too high a price, the price of abandoning who they are.
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In addition, their strong faith in a Maker and in the spirits of ancestors/animism appears to be a mechanism for ensuring cooperation within their clans. It's difficult to emotionally justify grandpa going out to die in the snow for the sake of the tribe unless one believes that he will still always be with you, just not in body. Taking a cue from Cold Wind, and For the State, I would argue that the Caldari, instead of taking a confrontational approach with the environment (i.e., nature is heartless and cruel), have chosen instead a more positive view (the environment we live in forges us into a stronger people, and forces us to cooperate). This explains, to some extent, the more casual attitude we see Caldari exhibiting towards death in For the State (they'll be with their ancestors and people always) while still maintaining a fiercely competitive nature (something that tends to require a bit of individualism).
Holy ancestor-worship Batman, I understand the Caldari now. :eek:
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Keep in mind that before Heth, even most Patriots were not exactly pushing the idea of retaking Caldari Prime seriously. Liberals, who seek an accord with the Federation, were not particularly interested, and Practicals probably simply considered it untenable (which Heth has not proven to be false, btw), making any questions of "want" rather moot. Since the invasion, the Patriots have been by far the most supportive of the occupation (or the continued liberation, depending on your POV), but that doesn't mean they were all pushing for it prior to it actually happening.
There's always been some faction of Caldari which has called for an abandonment of Caldari Prime and called the desire to retake it foolhardy -- Svetlana was saying that 5 years ago, and was far from the only one. Most of them seem to be Liberals or Practicals, obviously -- I can't see a Patriot saying that, even if they believed it.