Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silver Night on 17 Apr 2010, 20:33
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One of my major issues with the polarization of the cluster (Amarr/Caldari vs Gallente/Minmatar) is that I think there are a lot of interesting similarities between the State and the Republic.
The structure (particularly after the change of government in the Republic) is surprisingly similar. There are a lot of organizations that look somewhat analogous. The history has similarities. Etc.
There is also a heavy Caldari corporate presence in the Republic - particularly KK, Ishukone, and NOH if memory serves.
So, I'm just wondering, am I crazy? Or do other people see potential common ground with the Caldari for the Republic?
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I've been quietly pushing that idea for a couple of months now, here and there. From where I sit the Caldari make a better 'natural ally' for the Republic than the Federation does by far, and I also think there's a lot of common ground to be found between the Federation and the Empire. I can't help thinking CCP did that on purpose.
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Well, I think the Fed and Empire are more likely to have irreconcilable cultural differences though. Slavery etc.
There are *strong* links between the Republic and the Fed, no question. I mean, there is a large Minmatar population in the Fed, and all the support that the Fed has given the Republic.
I think those might be some of the things that would make the State attractive to some in the Republic, though. There could be a perception that the Caldari would treat them as equals, while the Fed would be inclined to look at them as a satellite state, and perhaps already does. The State would be interested in a strong trading partner where the Fed perhaps wouldn't see the Republic able to stand on its own.
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The parallels have always struck me as interesting, with the Federation and the Republic as "allies of convenience" but the State and the Republic as "hmm, it's a shame we're enemies because they might've been good friends".
But then, I've wanted to see all four major nations disintegrate into smaller groups (e.g. megacorps, tribes, houses, ???) and have LOTS of different factions.
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....the Fed would be inclined to look at them as a satellite state, and perhaps already does.
Absolutely. You see a very similar dynamic in earth politics in former colonies which achieved independence with help from a powerful ally, going right back to the Romans.
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Well, I think there is potential for that too, Casi. I mean, Megacorps - absolutely do their own thing behind the CEP and CPD's backs. Royal houses, at least before the current era. Tribes I don't see it too much, but the factions in the Fed might just be so numerous that they lose visibility and blend into one apparent whole when nothing could be further from the reality?
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Well, I think the Fed and Empire are more likely to have irreconcilable cultural differences though. Slavery etc.
There are *strong* links between the Republic and the Fed, no question. I mean, there is a large Minmatar population in the Fed, and all the support that the Fed has given the Republic.
Arguments could be made that the Fed's hurt the Republic more than helped - they talk a good game about freedom and other nice things like that which the Minmatar culture values, and yes they're very publicly anti-slavery. But they also have this sort of 'cultural superiority' undertheme where they seem to genuinely believe that only their way of doing things is the right way. Condemn the Amarr for slavery, exile a few thousand Intakis who don't agree with their treatment of the Caldari and pick the 'wrong side' in that war, use their ISK and influence to politically pressure a newly-freed Minmatar society into trying to emulate their society and culture when the Minmatar Republic was at its weakest and most vulnerable just starting out.
Sure, they were very helpful in helping the Minmatar people to establish themselves and get things moving and they have been very supportive since, but the way I see it that support has always had a lot of unspoken/unwritten expectations attached to it. Kinda like how recently the US is very helpful and supportive of the new Iraqi government and other political entities in the Middle East, but all that help and support comes with the expectation that they move toward a more Western-style/West-friendly form of government.
edit: Not trying to condemn the Federation as the new Most Evil Empire, just looking at the other side of the coin to pick out what I see as the more subtle of the dark tendencies that put them into the 'grey area' with everybody else.
This is why I've been asking questions about how things work in the Caldari State and its associated RP - been looking for ways in which it would be logical/feasible from an IC standpoint for Havohej to reach out a little more to Caldari entities. Haven't quite found what I'm looking for there yet, though.
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The trouble is that there's sufficient common ground for every one of the inner cluster empires and their subfactions if you look at it from the right point of view. Hell, the Gallente and the Intaki Syndicate have the least in common out of all of them.
But sure, the Caldari are honestly compatible with a very great number of inner-cluster groups except for their lolxenophobia.
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and lolhomophobia...
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and lolhomophobia...
Much of Guristas officers are citizens and naval officers who've been disgraced, forced out or shunned by the State for being gay, and who've decided to say "well, fuck you too". It's even mentioned separately about few of the officers in their description if my memory serves me right. One can speculate on the nature of relationship of Fatal and The Rabbit.
One could add a snarky comment about Veto and the male bonding (and female bonding as well now that Mina has other girls to play with finally) that goes on inside the corp :bear:
but now I digress from the topic, let us get back on the topic.
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I dunno about much or many. Certainly a portion of any splinter faction that hosts a lot of Caldari will be that way, yeah.
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I saw a similar discussion on Caldari homophobia before (well, it wasn't the entire subject, but a part of a discussion about sexuality in New Eden in general I think). One of the ideas I remember expressed from that thread was that in the Caldari State, with their population being small and the State itself being relatively young, there would be a sense of civic responsibility to procreate which might contribute to an unusual level of animosity toward people with non-hetero leanings.
There was more to it, of course, with RL history examples and so on, but I don't remember exactly what else was said. Just found that to be an interesting idea in terms of fictional world building.
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and lolhomophobia...
Much of Guristas officers are citizens and naval officers who've been disgraced, forced out or shunned by the State for being gay, and who've decided to say "well, fuck you too". It's even mentioned separately about few of the officers in their description if my memory serves me right. One can speculate on the nature of relationship of Fatal and The Rabbit.
One could add a snarky comment about Veto and the male bonding (and female bonding as well now that Mina has other girls to play with finally) that goes on inside the corp :bear:
but now I digress from the topic, let us get back on the topic.
Kaikka, IIRC, is the Guristas officer. The Caldari homophobia (and related - the relationship between the Guristas and the State, and what drives Caldari into the Guristas; what makes them 'not fit in.') is a whole other discussion. Though it does highlight a possible cultural difference (between the State and Republic).
On the topic of the State and Republic: There is a sense of collectivism, I think, for the State. Where the Federation and many of the fringe factions (Angels, Syndicate, etc) have and might in some cases idealize the sort of free-market capitalism for the advancement of the individual that fits the popular idea of capitalism, that doesn't seem to me to be the case so much for the State. Of course, it is a big cluster, and I wouldn't argue that there aren't people in the State whose only goal is to get themselves filthy rich. That being said, I think there is more of an idea that the way you succeed - the goal - is to have your family, or your team, or your department, or ultimately your corporation succeed.
It seems to me that there is this idea that achievement and advancement is about competition, but not at an individual level. At a group level. It's the State against everyone, the Megas against eachother, the Nourvukaiken accounting department competing with the Jita accounting department, etc.
Being part of the group is, I think, a big part of a Caldari's identity.
Now, I don't have as good a sense of the Minmatar. My impression is that while Tribe, clan, etc is important so is the individual. And that perhaps the Tribe, clan etc is important in a different way? If that makes sense?
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In my view, the tribe and the clan promote individual freedom within the framework of Minmatar tradition. In general, those that don't conform to traditions have a much more difficult time in society, whereas those that do can "get away" with a lot more. Like in The Burning Life (VERY minor spoiler, but tags anyway):
[spoiler]
A known Minmatar war criminal is allowed to slip away because the ends justified the means and he's migrating as part of the current exodus to the project out in GW or whereever.
[/spoiler]
So, if you are Minmatar, you're free to be like the rest of the Minmatar, with all the range that that implies. But if you become, say, a "godlover", then your life will get very, very difficult.
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Like Havo! :D
e: Not the godlover part, the other part.
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That's interesting, because I saw the Federation and Republic as more natural allies than the State and Republic for...
- Both detest slavery (even the 'Slave' item description quotes the Federation and not the Republic against it)
- Both have a strong emphasis on individuality and freedom
- And as mentioned, one-third of the Federation is Matari (one-fifth of Matari race overall)
The issue I see is that both the Republic and the Federation are a nation of collective individuals, with their own custom fashion depending on individual taste, like tattoos etc.
From a Federal meddling point-of-view, the Federation has a large obligation to help the Republic since a third of it is Minmatar as said. I actually thought Republic/Fed as allies made perfect sense for the reasons outlined, mainly the one about freedom and individuality but interesting to see. Them both getting pushed around by a larger empire is the biggest point.
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The Caldari homosexuality issue is actually pretty deep; I can make all sorts of arguments about it, and it deserves its own thread.
However, a lot of Matari roleplayers have been stealing the following throughout EVE:
"I against my brothers,
I and my brothers against my cousins,
I and my brothers and cousins against the world."
Or some variant thereof, possibly including clans, tribes, and star clusters.
So I see you one on the group competition thing, Silver, and raise you one.
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The Caldari homosexuality issue is actually pretty deep; I can make all sorts of arguments about it, and it deserves its own thread.
However, a lot of Matari roleplayers have been stealing the following throughout EVE:
"I against my brothers,
I and my brothers against my cousins,
I and my brothers and cousins against the world."
Or some variant thereof, possibly including clans, tribes, and star clusters.
So I see you one on the group competition thing, Silver, and raise you one.
Variations of that are pretty common among the Caldari too. Except it is usually Family>Corporation>State.
I would suggest that the first part of the Minmatar version, though, might indicate a subtle difference in how players view these things. The 'I against my brothers' part might not be that common, for Caldari.
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Not that it will ever happen, but I was just thinking that it would be interesting if the faction lines got shaken up and redone as Amarr vs. Gallente vs. Caldari/Minmatar.... 8)
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The Caldari homosexuality issue is actually pretty deep; I can make all sorts of arguments about it, and it deserves its own thread.
However, a lot of Matari roleplayers have been stealing the following throughout EVE:
"I against my brothers,
I and my brothers against my cousins,
I and my brothers and cousins against the world."
Or some variant thereof, possibly including clans, tribes, and star clusters.
So I see you one on the group competition thing, Silver, and raise you one.
Variations of that are pretty common among the Caldari too. Except it is usually Family>Corporation>State.
I would suggest that the first part of the Minmatar version, though, might indicate a subtle difference in how players view these things. The 'I against my brothers' part might not be that common, for Caldari.
I would suggest that the focus on family or off it for these groups derives more from circumstance than some inherently central cultural core without which they would wither on the vine, tho. Shit happened in the history of one that highlighted one kind of social group that just as easily could have been another sort. If the heroes of the Caldari-Gallente war had been a bunch of Raata dynastic heirs that were all about family and clan lines, we might see a rather different State today.
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Meant to emphasize that for the Caldari, it started at the family level (a group) rather than an individual level. Certainly that the larger societal units for the Caldari are corporations rather than clans might have turned out differently with a slightly different history, no question.
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I want to revive this thread, because I want to address the economic side of things (which I don't think have been addressed yet) and the recent history/impact on culture side in more depth.
I don't think there are numbers anywhere for import/export between Empires, but the are Caldari Megacorps with a big presence in the Republic in space, already (NOH, Ishukone, KK - 1 of each for the Caldari political factions, perhaps not coincidentally).
The Republic represents a market for Megacorps, and good will in the large Minmatar population in the Federation, perhaps, as well.
For the Republic, goods from the State represent a way to get away from some of the reliance (if there is any) on Federation produced goods.
Additionally, if the State still has problems getting enough labor (I'm not sure if it is clearly established whether they do, at this point in time, still?) then the Republic might be an attractive outsourcing option, with underemployment and a huge mix of skill-sets apparently just sitting there.
On the subject of recent history, just covering more 'common ground' the Republic is rebuilding a culture in the place where they came from, while the Caldari are adapting an old culture to a new place. Just has a certain symmetry, to me.
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The current situation comes down to a few very basic connections.
Minmatar fighting Amarr for the freedom of their civilization.
Caldari fighting Gallente for the freedom of their civilization.
Amarr make contact with Gallente (& Caldari).
Suddenly, Amarr & Gallente have very large ideologically opposed enemies as their neighbors and each are dealing with an upstart rebellion succeeding within their own empires.
Caldari side with the Amarr against the Gallente. Minmatar side with the Gallente against the Amarr. Caldari & Minmatar hypocritically support their larger allies position towards the other.
The current situation however does present the possibility for mutually beneficial partnerships.