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Author Topic: Holder Ranks  (Read 3239 times)

Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Holder Ranks
« Reply #15 on: 11 Oct 2013, 03:36 »

PF states expressly that Holder Forces are more security Forces than proper Military:

Quote from: Ministry of War
The Ministry of War oversees all the various branches of the Amarr armed forces, such as the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Army, and the 24th Imperial Crusade. It additionally works closely with the house fleets of the five heir families, who are more properly security forces than military, though its power over them is limited without a decree from the emperor.

It also says that the Military: the Imperial Navy, Army and Crusade Forces are under the control of the Emperor, at least formally.

There are in fact split loyalties within the Military of the Empire, as has been proven fatal in the case of Khanid's succession for the Empire. To me the chronicle reads as if he only was able to secede successfully because he was the " commander-in-chief of the military forces of the empire" and "escorted by a portion of the Amarr fleet, claimed by Khanid by the power of his position".

With the reconciliation with the Kingdom there is certainly the Khanid Navy as another Military force within the Empire at large, but in the Empire proper there seems to have been a trend to concentrate the Military even more in the Hands of the Emperor: That starts with Heideran's decree and goes as far as the total loss of troops for Heir Kador after his invasion attempt.

It's certainly not the situation of a usual european feudal state where most of the military might was not with e.g. the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of Germanic Nations.
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Gaven Lok ri

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Re: Holder Ranks
« Reply #16 on: 11 Oct 2013, 04:04 »

Thanks! I had missed that one, which does agree with your point. I had also mostly forgotten Heideran's decree, so parts of what I described as likely need to be revised in terms of that decree. It would be interesting to know when that line was put in. IE was it put in when they added 24th imperial or does it date back to the Heideran days?  Its worth remembering that we aren't dealing with a static world here, what the PF says gives you a piece of primary evidence for a specific moment in EVE's history that may not be true 5 years later.

I am certainly not arguing for a usual european feudal state (if such a thing ever existed).

What I am going to consistently argue for for is a state that is dominated by aristocratic land holding authorities who resist centralization. You don't need an edict like Heideran's if you have a centralized state. That is an attempt to centralize the military, the very existence of the attempt means that it isn't centralized.

Kador had sufficient military capacity to *try* that silly invasion. That implies a major buildup of power from the "more security forces than military" of the Min of War description. That his forces were stripped from him only happened after he failed miserably. So, yes that is evidence that Jamyl is trying to centralize things, but it is also evidence that the Heirs spent Karsoth's reign building up their own power bases with an expectation of a major civil war.

Another thing to consider is that Heideran's decree probably resulted in a great deal of false reporting of ship types. I expect that there are a rather large number of Battlecruisers and "Heavy" Cruisers in the Holder Navies. And Battleships that just happen to look like dreadnoughts. And so on.

Edit:
Checking my old PF thread: It looks like that one is a change that was put in with Jamyl, the old Ministry of War description was "The Ministry of War wields extensive powers within the Amarr Empire through their control of the armed forces" so someone relatively recently decided to add a statement that the heirs had security forces rather than proper military forces.

It does suggest to me that much of the navy itself is going to be more beholden to specific holder family networks than it is the centralized authority. Because there has to be some check by the holders and heirs on the centralizing bureaucracy.

Edit2: Also, I was just reminded that Kor-Azor was fielding dreadnoughts in the Brother Joshua arc. This suggests to me that the issue is a bit more complicated than the Ministry of War blurb suggests.
« Last Edit: 11 Oct 2013, 04:50 by Gaven Lok ri »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: Holder Ranks
« Reply #17 on: 11 Oct 2013, 05:29 »

Regarding the Heideran Decree:
Quote from: Legislative Role of the Emperor
The emperor also has tremendous sway over the creation and issuance of new laws within the Empire. Such decrees can be widespread and sweeping, such as Heideran's Decree which limited the ability of Holders to field space fleets and Jamyl's Emancipation which freed 9th-generation and higher Minmatar slaves, or extremely limited in scope such as the Ardishapur Decree which targeted only males born to the Ardishapur Family. As the emperor also speaks with the voice of God, he is allowed to contradict the Scriptures, either by ignoring pieces that contradict his wishes, emphasizing passages that reinforce his position, or modifying sections to strengthen his commands.

However, these alterations are not permanent, as the Theology Council maintains exclusive rights to modify Scripture directly. The emperor often works alongside them in affecting Scriptural law. The Theology Council usually attempts to sway the emperor to hewing closely to already-established Scripture, though it also acts as an expert on finding sections of Scripture that may support or cause trouble for the emperor's decrees.
Emphasis mine.

Quote from: Legislative Role of the Theology Council
In effect, it serves to allow emperors (and to a lesser extent the heirs and Holders) to make edicts and decrees that hold personal interest to them without forcing subsequent emperors to abide by them by dint of the Scriptures.

...

At times, however, the Theology Council may decide that one of these edicts should exist in perpetuity. In such a case, the Council will add the edict to the Scriptures, thus codifying it in Imperial law for all time. Or, at least, until a later emperor with sympathetic high justices works to undo it. ...

Sauce: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Government_of_the_Amarr_Empire

So, basically an Emperor's edicts and decrees expire with their death, unless the TC have ratified it. I suppose an edict could be maintained in perpetuity even without TC approval if subsequent emperors decide to uphold it. Dunno which category the Heideran Decree would fall under.

Louella Dougans

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Re: Holder Ranks
« Reply #18 on: 11 Oct 2013, 10:46 »

Quote
While powerful Amarr Holders may retain private armies, minor houses are often prevented from maintaining military cadres by their lieges, religious laws or Imperial decrees. A few organizations exist to provide such Holders with military capability and the Holdfast Syndicate is one of these. While many minor houses have invested in Holdfast, the corporation is independent and regularly takes on contracts across New Eden.

Quote
Those True Amarr nobles who were veterans of the so-called 'Vindication Wars' gained the cognomen 'Marcher Lords' in Holder circles. After the hostilities on the border of the Ammatar Mandate died down to a low level, several of these nobles decided to form a corporation to train and equip militia forces on the frontiers of the Empire. With the blessing of Emperor Heideran VII, the Company of Marcher Lords generated a large income by offering its most elite troops as mercenaries.

Quote
Closely linked to the Ardishapur Family, the Red and Silver Hand are a paramilitary organization holding a charter granting them the right to conduct planetary operations. Originally the soldiers of the Hand performed their duties in return for a grant of land. Today they prefer payment in cold hard coin, or its electronic equivalent.

Some of the descriptions in the Amarr DUST corporations.
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