Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: hellgremlin on 01 Nov 2010, 14:06
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What's this business all about, I wonder... they each have a corporation, all four created on the same day, with themselves as the sole members - with a short blurb of their party standings:
Ours is a nation of limitless opportunity and freedom in which the right of all peoples, regardless of race or creed, to strive for their dreams is protected from interference and oppression. In such a place, the mysteries of time and space fade before the ingenuity of our scientists. The canyons of economy are bridged by our innovation and industry. The best in you is the best in us, and with that strength we move forward.
Embrace challenge and rise to become all that is within your potential. Join us.
Liberal hippie technocrats!
Amid a dark and storming ocean our Federation stands, a lone island mount buffeted by wave and wind yet unmoving, promising refuge upon its shores to any who cry for shelter. None are turned away, for all are deserving of succor and there is a space enough for every one. Give us your weak and weary, your dirty and outcast, so that they may shine in light of freedom.
How we treat the least among us is how we shall be measured. Help ensure just governance for all. Join us.
Humanitarians!
Fellow Gallenteans, our freedoms – nay, our very lives – are under threat. The throng of a thousand alien empires assembles at the gates of our enlightened city and demands entry. Our leaders dilute our principles in order to survive this siege. But the beating heart of life is sublime liberty, and such mere survival is no life at all. To whom then does freedom belong? It belongs only to those who would defend it!
Take up the Shield of Rouvenor. Stand watch upon Freedom's walls. Join us.
Right-wing chickenhawks!
We are a land of many nations. We are deep space explorers. We are the huddled masses, longing to breathe freedom. We will risk it all. We imagine the impossible and make it the truth. We hold the line and charge headlong towards our destiny. We are all races but one people, united by the principle that all are equal and uniformly entitled under the law of common conscience.
Stay true to the Federation's founding and help achieve the egalitarian ideal. Join us.
Unificationists!
What's everyone make of this?
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One person, many alts? /trolol?
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Honestly... I've shoveled bullshit on the farm that didn't smell this bad.
[opinion]Planetside politics on such a "small scale" have no place on IGS. If people want to RP 'local politics', they should find other people with similar RP interests and do it in private channels. There's absolutely no reason any more than 1-3 Capsuleers would ever give a shit about a single planetary election process.[/opinion]
[disclaimer]My opinions are my own, and are liable to seem abrasive; they are not, however, intended as personal attacks and should be viewed objectively. I just CBA right now to try and put it in 'nice' terms[/disclaimer]
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What's everyone make of this?
The Magic 8-Ball suggests that the parties might be concerned that Roden's going to become a Generalissimo, and they don't think they have a chance in hell of getting him out of office, unless the capsuleers decide they want to take an interest in politics (maybe it could be argued that it's been on the wane since the Foiritan/Blaque/Autrech election. ;) ).
And hey, how about those Roden Police NPCs cropping up in various systems, hmmmmm?
The other Magic 8-Ball suggests that somebody doesn't want Americans to be able to escape political news by playing EvE.
And the other Magic 8-Ball suggests I should lay off the leftover Halloween candy.
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Yes, I definitely got echoes of the inscription on the Statue of Liberty after reading some of these. Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free...
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And the other Magic 8-Ball suggests I should lay off the leftover Halloween candy.
Hehe.
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Yes, I definitely got echoes of the inscription on the Statue of Liberty after reading some of these. Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free...
I laughed a lot while reading the one from the Progressives. It's neat how they're appealing to business owners and independent research firms, as if capsuleers are supposed to forget all about how their former standard bearer tried to seize direct control of corporations. (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=24-08-09)
(Or maybe whomever's fronting for the Progressives forgot all about that.)
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[opinion]Planetside politics on such a "small scale" have no place on IGS. If people want to RP 'local politics', they should find other people with similar RP interests and do it in private channels. There's absolutely no reason any more than 1-3 Capsuleers would ever give a shit about a single planetary election process.[/opinion]
I sort of disagree.
I think that it's okay and sometimes interesting if there are larger ramifications; ie. something may up affecting another state/party. Someone's trying to secede from the greater union: good. Someone is angry that their taxes were jacked by 1%: bad.
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I quite like it, the Federation has always been described as a space nation more than the other empires.....the Federal administration itself is an NPC corp with stations littered across the regions.
It would seem natural that all politicians would want to grab a few votes and favors from the god-like capsuleers who remain loyal to the national ideals....
Will get the popcorn and see how this unfolds.
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Oh, wow, I am thoroughly impressed by the level of detail and effort they have put into this, and I am also thoroughly impressed by us roleplayers going "Ohai!" instead of going "RP is wrong".
They've done their old Fed chron reading, picking up on the two main parties, the Progressors and Sociocrats, as well as the Unionists (with a Brutor chairwoman too, as per the chron), and even had their own Nationalist flavour...I imagine the more moderate successors of the Ultra-Nationalists.
There was also the "Federal-Populist" party mentioned during the Roden election campaign, with Garioss, I imagine for the sake of consistency it could be the Federal Populist Party...I would say they are taking extensive liberties in the fact of RPing the leaders of the parties BUT with Blaque and Foiritan gone, and any mention of parties in recent PF has sort of waned so v0v (EDIT: Nvm, Alain Octirant mentioned the "populists aren't going through with it")
I watch with interest!
EDIT: Aha, they are not claiming to be Senators, but non-politician members of the respective parties. Fair play.
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I for one think it's a nice change from the blood fetish capsuleer sex slave romance rivalries taking place.
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And the other Magic 8-Ball suggests I should lay off the leftover Halloween candy.
Three eightballs in one sitting? No wonder you're hyper.
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They've done their old Fed chron reading, picking up on the two main parties, the Progressors and Sociocrats, as well as the Unionists (with a Brutor chairwoman too, as per the chron), and even had their own Nationalist flavour...I imagine the more moderate successors of the Ultra-Nationalists.
There was also the "Federal-Populist" party mentioned during the Roden election campaign, with Garioss, I imagine for the sake of consistency it could be the Federal Populist Party...I would say they are taking extensive liberties in the fact of RPing the leaders of the parties BUT with Blaque and Foiritan gone, and any mention of parties in recent PF has sort of waned so v0v (EDIT: Nvm, Alain Octirant mentioned the "populists aren't going through with it")
ok i am officially an ignorant, i only knew progressors and sociocrats, but just how many party blocs are there? what about the mentioned vultures? doves? as those were "voting" blocs......i think i am a bit lost with this whole "politicians" thing.
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And the other Magic 8-Ball suggests I should lay off the leftover Halloween candy.
Three eightballs in one sitting? No wonder you're hyper.
Reply Hazy. Must Take Nap.
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Bruno -
The voter blocs are literally blocs, not political parties, and there's likely not a correlation between who votes for who.
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I like it.
Not sure where it can go, but still, something to read on IGS.
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I tired to interact; but I am just a trolling Caldari.
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I tired to interact; but I am just a trolling Caldari.
I'm being a friendly Caldari.
If this hasn't made everyone nervous, it should.
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I tired to interact; but I am just a trolling Caldari.
I'm being a friendly Caldari.
If this hasn't made everyone nervous, it should.
Duh?
"Hey, look Istvaan is playing nice with all the Fed's political party spokes people. Nothing to worry about..." :eek: "... wait a second! Istvaan is being nice to to all the Fed's political party spokes people! Quick check their bank accounts!"
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Some one really bored with alot of alts.
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I tired to interact; but I am just a trolling Caldari.
Celeste would have been interacting (those years working for the Senate, yo), but she's blocked on two public fronts.
It's probably for the best. :P
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Some one really bored with alot of alts.
Well, I hope they stick at it, if nothing else :9.
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Some one really bored with alot of alts.
Well, I hope they stick at it, if nothing else :9.
This, tbh,
I for one think it's a nice change from the blood fetish capsuleer sex slave romance rivalries taking place.
because of this.
I'll honestly be watching this closely, to see if the chessmaster running these guys (assuming it is one bored player and not a bunch of bored friends) gets tired or actually carves himself his own new RP niche. Would be a rare, impressive, and certainly interaction worthy thing if he does.
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I bet this is the person behind Demented Pilot and the infested pilots from while back. Running little RP events with alts. CCP should take notes, you can get people talking with just a few effortless forum posts - no need for big events.
I think CCP should be doing this kind of stuff.
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Who's to say they aren't? >.>
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They have the green bars when they do it.
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Who's to say they aren't? >.>
Defeats the purpose of announcing live events are back if they don't make it apparent they are doing something.
Alt posts does not help public perception.
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I actually thought these guys were CCP types, and it would be very interesting if they were.
From what I see it's RP based on PF, not RP based on other RP. It's why it's gone absolutely smoothy with no silly ego games.
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Some one really bored with alot of alts.
That's what trial accounts were made for!
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I for one think it's a nice change from the blood fetish capsuleer sex slave romance rivalries taking place.
Nuff said.
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Rather enjoying it, and interacting where I can.
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Rather enjoying it, and interacting where I can.
Likewise. It's interesting to have someone taking the part of baseliners coming to speak with us and try to woo us to their cause.
I'm baffled by the wardec though. Seems a tad pointless.
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I'm slightly disappointed to see Soter continuing the line of claiming the posters are fabrications, but I suppose that it makes for a particularly convincing brand of conspiracy theorist. :)
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I'm slightly disappointed to see Soter continuing the line of claiming the posters are fabrications, but I suppose that it makes for a particularly convincing brand of conspiracy theorist. :)
How can I put this very nicely...
Hmm.
Soter has not had...an "accepting" reaction...to the concept that the Federation is not a bright and shining light in the darkness of New Eden.
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That's realistic, though. You and I both know many, many individuals with the same viewpoint about the US.
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Soter has not had...an "accepting" reaction...to the concept that the Federation is not a bright and shining light in the darkness of New Eden.
That's realistic, though. You and I both know many, many individuals with the same viewpoint about the US.
I can only guess at the intentions of Soter's player; but I do not think the character is that simplistic.
The character Soter appears to view the real Federation as having fallen from what it can and should be. He holds up the original concept of the Federation as a bright and shining beacon for the rest of the Federation and New Eden to pursue, not the Federation as it stands. He reels against what he views as unconstitutional actions and tainting political parties.
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I agree, and I also think the wardec was an interesting, role-playing way for him to get his point across.
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I agree, and I also think the wardec was an interesting, role-playing way for him to get his point across.
Sorry, but I consider the act of declaring war on people during an IGS disagreement out of place. "You do not agree with me? I keeel you!" We all know that these characters likely never will log into the game even less leave a station. As one who role-plays through actions I am very much aware of the limitations of in game mechanics to show sign of disagreement besides declaring war on each other. Still, as this element primarily resides within the domain of IGS it will be hard to do something meaningful about with in-game actions.
Am I the only one who distinguish between IGS, in game actions, official and player written lore and while they all make up the World of EVE not everything can be freely transferred between domains?
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Sorry, but I consider the act of declaring war on people during an IGS disagreement out of place. "You do not agree with me? I keeel you!"
Maybe so, but Jules is at least consistent in this regard. The ILF has the battle scars to prove it.
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So, I made this quite clear in character. But do I need to copy-paste my IC explanation for an out of character discussion, as well?
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Only if your IC actions are driven by your OOC considerations. Or vice-versa.
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Only if these people's IC actions are driven by their OOC considerations. Or vice-versa. You mean.
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No, I mean that you only need to repost your IC stuff as OOC if they're the same. (I'm not saying that they are, mind, just responding to your question. :) )
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So, the people reposting the same opinions their characters have on the IGS on the forum are operating under the same methodology, yes?
Which means I would need to post my character's response i this forum so these same individuals could have the chance to read said response again.
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I think you may be jumping to some conclusions here. :)
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I think I'm just taking reasonable precautions to prevent misunderstanding regarding my personal and in-character views and our corporation's current status of operations.
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You have expressed your OOC disagreement with the authenticity of these characters, no? So how does one make the distinction that IC actions (which also disagree with the authenticity of these characters) are not a conveyance of OOC opinions?
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The characters are being disingenuous, in character. My character is calling them out for it in character.
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The characters are being disingenuous, in character. My character is calling them out for it in character.
So, question Soter, if it directly effects you in a positive way to claim that my character isn't affiliated with the Angel Cartel, would you denounce that association as well?
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Your character chooses to be affiliated with the Angel cartel, and follows that faction's philosophy of operation. Therefore, your character's claims are, as far as Soter can tell, are legitimate.
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So is the issue for these other characters that you don't feel that they follow the Federation philosophy?
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The issue is they don't choose to be affiliated with a faction. They claim to be legitimate elements of a faction. Indeed, they are capsuleer CEO's of 'political parties', whose organizations are apparently registered as Capsuleer Corporations under the Yulai Conventions.
Not only does it break immersion, it strains in-character suspension of disbelief.
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What does faction affiliation mean for you, then? Is it a question of standings, or militia, or something else?
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Not only does it break immersion, it strains in-character suspension of disbelief.
Nobody else seems to think this, everybody's RPing away. So why does it matter?
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Affiliation is just that, affiliation.
a : to bring or receive into close connection as a member or branch b : to associate as a member <affiliates herself with the local club>
In game mechanic terms, that means you don't hurt the thing you're affiliating with, you hold similar values, causes, and suchlike.
Having killed vast hordes of a group and then attempting to 'affiliate' with someone is problematic, roleplaying-wise.
Now the "Gallente Politicians" in question here could have chosen to be affiliates, concerned capsuleers speaking out on behalf of their beloved parties. Instead they claim to be official representatives, mouthpieces of government officials. In-character, this is very problematic, and Soter sees them as fraudulent wannabees that are threatening the stability of Federation politics and the hope for collaboration of disparate factions in Federation space.
Regarding Seriphyn's response above, my character and I have never stopped roleplaying this thread. Some merely attempt to construe my attempts at roleplay as invalid.
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What does faction affiliation mean for you, then? Is it a question of standings, or militia, or something else?
It means these characters don't have green borders so they don't speak with the canon voice of CCP although they put forward identities that simulate (effectively, imo) such associations.
They present a dilemma with two choices for the player. One is to play along. The other is to not. Jules' player chooses to not, but to do so in a way that knocks very heavily on the fourth wall for everyone watching and voluntarily participating on the terms set by these characters. I believe he justifies his stance, which fulfills a need to voice his objection to the concept as a player, by employing reactions that are thinly veiled by an IC veneer.
Not only does it break immersion, it strains in-character suspension of disbelief.
In fact, I would argue that the 'wardec' line of thought is intended to break immersion for those who are participating, rather than these characters themselves being the immersion-breaking element. It is less an in-character response and more of an in-game response, that is an action that has storyline merit but which is so heavily anchored in a gameplay mechanic that it's impossible for me to believe in this context. But then, I have accepted the terms of play these characters offer. For Jules, who doesn't, the wardec is perfectly valid.
Nevertheless, the politicians have reacted to him on his terms and in good humor, it seems.
Soter sees them as fraudulent wannabees that are threatening the stability of Federation politics and the hope for collaboration of disparate factions in Federation space.
Jules (I mean you as the player), you see them this way too, and that's perfectly within your rights. I don't fault your opinion. But virtually everyone else has run with it. By continuing the illegitimacy argument, your character appears to be somewhat nuts imo. Cas did point out the conspiracy theorist storyline, however... ^_^
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I have to say that, were I to engage in Fed RP, my character would likely react to Soter much the same as I (the player) react to people who claim that President Obama was born in Kenya. :)
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Ken, i would say, indeed, it would be bringing a bit of reality into the discussion. What's breaking immersion if it brings people's attention back to facts and evidence?
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My prediction came true!
By continuing the illegitimacy argument, your character appears to be somewhat nuts imo. Cas did point out the conspiracy theorist storyline, however... ^_^
[ 2010.06.22 23:16:48 ] Arvo Katsuya > You know, by the end of this event, Soter is going to turn into those stark raving mad conspiracy theorists with any resembling an office supply is out to get him.
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New meme of the day! Talking with capsuleers claiming to be party chairpersons is smart politics. People shedding truth on frauds are insane.
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I think the issue is that most of the players don't feel that you or your characters are shedding truth on a fraud.
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'Most' of the players don't give a frak. [mod]Please do not cast aspersions on the motivations of other players [/mod]
And my character comes in half way through to voice a dissenting opinion. For a moment I was wondering why the response was so unified, so complete. Then I cross-referenced all the names, and noticed their statements on the IGS. [mod]Please do not cast aspersions on the motivations of other players[/mod]
That leaves us the issue of OOC vs. IC, as it often comes down to. [mod]Please do not cast aspersions on the motivations of other players. [/mod]
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OOC, people KNOW that these "characters", are, as far as game-mechanics are concerned, counted as capsuleers. However, for the sake of RP, they have chosen to use their imagination and count these characters as who they say they are. As such, we're all having fun with interaction.
The same way Anette Inhonores is, technically, a capsuleer, but for the sake of RP, people choose to see her as she is; a 10 year old little Gallentean girl.
RP's not all about abiding by the game mechanics, dude.
Otherwise, Souro Foirtain is still president.
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"For the sake of RP" is a phrase uttered to justify a great many things. But it breaks every concept of immersion for me to try to accept that the chairpeople of all the major political parties had to somehow hack their way into the capsuleer databases through the Capsuleer Graduate programs of various schools, and couldn't even acquire basic recognition of their official nature from any governmental source.
Continuing on this line of in character analysis, when these same individuals undertake extremely high-profile debates on the Intergalactic Summit, stirring antipathy between allied organizations, such a thing becomes a strategic threat and must be dealt with immediately.
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New meme of the day! Talking with capsuleers claiming to be party chairpersons is smart politics. People shedding truth on frauds are insane.
This is nothing new. People telling the truth have often been thought to be insane. Or evil.
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Regarding the 'leaders', that's already been thoroughly explained through hard-coded database issues on CCP's part. In every case of leadership changes, there have been thorough in-character news and background articles provided to support said changes.
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So have insane people. ;)
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'Most' of the players don't give a frak. The small minority of players that have a vested interest in continuing this shadow boxing match on the IGS want to defend their already well-established RP statements regarding the validity of these Capsuleers.
And my character comes in half way through to voice a dissenting opinion. For a moment I was wondering why the response was so unified, so complete. Then I cross-referenced all the names, and noticed their statements on the IGS. It would tarnish their character's reputations to admit they were dealing with frauds.
That leaves us the issue of OOC vs. IC, as it often comes down to. It seems highly probable that because accepting a differing view point regarding the "politicians" would tarnish their respective characters track records, they will deny the opposition and ignore it.
As near as I can tell, my character has made no statements regarding these characters, and I as a player still disagree with your stance.
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'Most' of the players don't give a frak. The small minority of players that have a vested interest in continuing this shadow boxing match on the IGS want to defend their already well-established RP statements regarding the validity of these Capsuleers.
And my character comes in half way through to voice a dissenting opinion. For a moment I was wondering why the response was so unified, so complete. Then I cross-referenced all the names, and noticed their statements on the IGS. It would tarnish their character's reputations to admit they were dealing with frauds.
That leaves us the issue of OOC vs. IC, as it often comes down to. It seems highly probable that because accepting a differing view point regarding the "politicians" would tarnish their respective characters track records, they will deny the opposition and ignore it.
As near as I can tell, my character has made no statements regarding these characters, and I as a player still disagree with your stance.
^
basically it comes down to this Jules: people are having fun, they're enjoying the roleplay, they know that the characters are really just capsuleers and are choosing to ignore it for fun, and you're pissing on their sandcastles. That's basically what this is about. you ruining other people's fun. shame on you, you fun ruiner.
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'Most' of the players don't give a frak. The small minority of players that have a vested interest in continuing this shadow boxing match on the IGS want to defend their already well-established RP statements regarding the validity of these Capsuleers.
And my character comes in half way through to voice a dissenting opinion. For a moment I was wondering why the response was so unified, so complete. Then I cross-referenced all the names, and noticed their statements on the IGS. It would tarnish their character's reputations to admit they were dealing with frauds.
I continue interacting because I enjoy it, not because I'm so desperately worried about my character saving face.
The more you hurl pejorative and alarmist imagery on this whole ordeal or try to pin petty motives on others, the more you reveal your purposes, btw.
That leaves us the issue of OOC vs. IC, as it often comes down to. It seems highly probable that because accepting a differing view point regarding the "politicians" would tarnish their respective characters track records, they will deny the opposition and ignore it. If this opposition is brought up on secondary lines of communication, they will simply attack the person who offers said roleplay opportunity.
Which I find about 100 times more acceptable than your doing the exact same thing OOCly (attacking others by presuming self-serving motives on those who RP as if the politicians are who they say they are).
How did you reach this "higly probable" conclusion? To me it seems a lot more like a contrived accustion with zero evidence being used to discredit others. It is an ad hominem/poisoning the well tactic.
It is a steaming pile of hypocrisy to boo-hoo about being personally attacked while smearing entire groups of people with idle conjecture about motives
"For the sake of RP" is a phrase uttered to justify a great many things. But it breaks every concept of immersion for me to try to accept that the chairpeople of all the major political parties had to somehow hack their way into the capsuleer databases through the Capsuleer Graduate programs of various schools, and couldn't even acquire basic recognition of their official nature from any governmental source.
I find it more immersion-breaking to find every inconsistency in data displays because the game is limited in the ability to portray certain archetypes and call as much attention to it as possible than to take the options of play along or ignore.
I'm sorry, but if you loudly declare your opposition to a concept, then decide to participate anyways doing as much possible ICly to bring about the very thing you warned against, drawing more attention to the very immersion-breaking elements you stated were your primary issue with it, it is hard to figure out what you want besides to inject piss and vinegar.
So lets find out if this is really your belief applied consistently or just another case of someone being a gadfly. Do you denounce people writing up planet descriptions, but glazing over the fact that many of them have atmospheres and gravity levels that are not capable of supporting human life? Or, on the other hand, do you think it is okay to just skip a few obscure lines in order to add a little to the tapestry?
Continuing on this line of in character analysis, when these same individuals undertake extremely high-profile debates on the Intergalactic Summit, stirring antipathy between allied organizations, such a thing becomes a strategic threat and must be dealt with immediately.
It is a strategic threat to a democracy to allow vigorous debate?
I thought that was the basis of their strength?
There's also a huge difference between finding disagreement with one political party's views and turning your back on the entire Federation. I seriously doubt anyone has ICly undergone a major shift in allegiances becaues of Chairman Octirant or the others.
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Regarding the 'leaders', that's already been thoroughly explained through hard-coded database issues on CCP's part. In every case of leadership changes, there have been thorough in-character news and background articles provided to support said changes.
The goalposts, they have moved!
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So, and I'm just speculating here, if CCP were to post a news item that referenced these politicians participating in the IGS, would that settle things down?
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Which they never will. Unless someone bribes them.
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Which they never will.
Well, that very neatly avoids confronting the possibility and the consequences thereof, doesn't it?
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I think I'll withdraw from the thread at this point.
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It very neatly assess the possibilities of CCP elevating a player to the role of an official Prime Fiction Non-player-character controller.
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It very neatly assess the possibilities of CCP elevating a player to the role of an official Prime Fiction Non-player-character controller.
They hired TonyG didn't they?
Edit: Of course, that didn't turn out perfectly... :roll:
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It very neatly assess the possibilities of CCP elevating a player to the role of an official Prime Fiction Non-player-character controller.
which is to say...that you're a fun ruiner.
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Which they never will. Unless someone bribes them.
Because forum posts alone do not change the game, nor change the in-game reality. I could claim to be Kuvakei's long lost daughter's college roommate, it doesn't mean that I'm not or that I am. Now, if I lead the charge to capture Gallente systems, then make a post crediting the victory to my steadfast belief in my Empire's righteousness...
...then you might get something interesting in the news. That's the thing; backing up forum posts with in-game actions is far, far more effective than forum posts alone.
It's not something I would personally use against CCP; it's that they have an obligation to deliver a good game, and good support material. If they followed every thread on IGS and made news items about it all, it would probably overwhelm the fiction team (volunteers and devs) for the foreseeable future.
Make your own path is the general message from CCP, and such has been rewarded in the past (and I'm sure it will be in the future).
Edit:
To further the examples; if these "politicians" held a rally of some sort, or series of rallies, getting the support of the "people"... perhaps then they might get the ISD/Dev wheels turning and get some news.
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Bit agitated about missing my flight due to traffic and the city being blanketed in snow, but is there any need to continue Soter? I mean, NOBODY here agrees with the opposite stance, so why not just forget it and let us have our fun? We're all enjoying ourselves so....it beats the typical igs stuff
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... I mean, NOBODY here agrees with the opposite stance, so why not just forget it and let us have our fun?
Soter's arguement does have its merits, and I wouldnt go as far as saying that NOBODY agrees with him.
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So, FINALLY there is something different than the usual e-peen swinging sugar coated as RP or old report about who have shot who in the face and an actual chance to engage in some political and world shaping discussions. But it gets pulled down to the "shoot-in-face" level because that is apparently the only level we are allowed to engage on.
The chances for CCP to hire an official actor to play the role of Gallente politicians for a longer period of time are slim to none, and when somebody who clearly got the skill to take the role shows up we are supposed to slap him down by invalidating the premise the setting is build upon due to crappy in-game mechanics? No thanks. This is the worst case of trying to mod somebody else story setting I have ever witnessed. Because yes, it is just a story, though it is an interactive one.
Ps. Count me as one of those who do NOT agree.
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I think you underestimate CCP's willingness to explore new avenues of RP. But you have to let them do it.
Think of this another way. If someone tried to create a 'chairperson' for Karin Midular's party/tribe in the Minmatar Parliament, I don't think that would've worked out too hot with all the Minnie RP'ers.
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You may be right in that example, but these guys aren't Minmatar politicians, and only you are outspokenly disagreeing with their validity.
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I think you underestimate CCP's willingness to explore new avenues of RP. But you have to let them do it.
Think of this another way. If someone tried to create a 'chairperson' for Karin Midular's party/tribe in the Minmatar Parliament, I don't think that would've worked out too hot with all the Minnie RP'ers.
No, it wouldn't have. I personally don't like trying to pose yourself as "the government" on IGS, in any form, and so I am quite glad the thread under question is the Feds, not us. That allows me to conveniently ignore their existence and not go pissing in other people's cheerios by publicly demanding proof that they are who they say they are or something else equally boring and unpopular.
Julianus is far from the only one who does not like this sort of things much. I think a lot of people are refraining from both reading the IGS thread and commenting on it OOC, out of trying to avoid saying "YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG". (Saying this much comes uncomfortably close to doing so, for myself.)
(Would have worked even less so because Karin Midular is said chairperson, but that's nitpicking. ;))
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So the lesson is, if enough of the 'real' gallente RP'ers decide something is 'true' even though from the outside it appears to be a fraud, then. . . it's real?
Who appointed the 'real' gallente rp'ers?
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So the lesson is, if enough of the 'real' gallente RP'ers decide something is 'true' even though from the outside it appears to be a fraud, then. . . it's real?
It's RP. If someone wants to play a politician then what's wrong with that? I seem to remember a Capsuleer running for the Presidency of the Gallente Federation not too far back. I forgot who was going to run for the Vice Presidency, which would have been an entirely new position...
What's the difference between that and this?
Who appointed the 'real' gallente rp'ers?
They appointed themselves when they started RP'ing. The question is what the heck is "real" RP? Should said "Real" RP have more of an effect on the game than in-game mechanics and meta-plot considerations?
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I'd like to comment here, but only briefly.
I created the New Eden Assembly. A lot of RPers here take part. CCP didn't shut us down and claim that we copied CONCORD.
Let everyone have fun. They aren't forcing this down people's throats, just adding. Unless people know exactly what CCP's fiction dept. knows, then live and let live.
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Everything is different, as far as I recall. The candidates you spoke of ran in a legitimate electoral process. They didn't claim to be the candidates of any major political party. And the Presidential candidate's platform included a constitutional amendment that would have reformed the role of the executive branch of the government, allowing for a secondary role of Vice President to better coordinate the legislative and executive.
None of this involved the intervention of anyone but capsuleers making decisions, speaking out on political issues and topics regarding the future of the Federation.
Now, if for instance we had claimed we were the official candidates of the Social Democrats, then that would have been reprehensible and tarnished our character's credibility/sanity.
Regarding the Assembly, that's quite clearly a perfectly kosher case of Capsuleers and Capsuleer organizations forming a forum to provide a more meaningful place of discourse and diplomacy. It doesn't claim any sort of NPC auspices for its existence, nor does it need to.
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Now, if for instance we had claimed we were the official candidates of the Social Democrats, then that would have been reprehensible and tarnished our character's credibility/sanity.
Actually, there are real-world examples of a political party having problems with "breakaway" groups claiming to represent said parties. There's been some big examples of this in the U.S. recently. Yes, they do come off as slightly "fringe", but are they crazy? Some think so, and say so. Loudly. Is that unbelievable?
I just think that if someone wants to RP politicians, let them. I also believe if you want to call shenanigans ICly, you're perfectly within your rights. In short, why can't both sides be happy with how things are going, and using it as an opportunity to RP (and hopefully pew-pew in the interests of boosting interstellar mineral exchanges) instead of taking it as a challenge to immersion?
This is politics. I for one support it.
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I created the New Eden Assembly. A lot of RPers here take part. CCP didn't shut us down and claim that we copied CONCORD.
Sorry, but what? NEA has nothing that I see to do with CONCORD. CONCORD is a thingy by four nation state governments, NEA is some capsuleers having political stances and a debate club, and has never pretended to be anything but the capsuleers doing their thing. Not only is it completely not CONCORD, it is also completely not the same thing as people making alts to play Federation politics outside of the capsuleer community (regardless of whether you think that is a fun idea or not, it's just not the same).
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Soter, I'm curious to know, in this regard, what you think of the character "Anette Inhonores". She's an in-game character I use for RP, as does Ciarente for Camille Roth. Both are female children.
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PEOPLE CAN RP POLITICIANS. I'm not arguing what roles they can or can't RP.
My Character has been arguing IN-character against their claims to legitimacy, as chairpersons of the four major political parties in the Federation Senate.
Out of character, I have been defending my character's actions from rebukes on this thread by several individuals who can't seem to read my character's posts on the IGS. Additionally, I have argued OOC that the entire RP concept is a bit of a sham, but since such commentary is forbidden on these forums, I won't repeat it.
These 'gallente politician' characters are in truth one thing, though they claim to be another. The RP crisis is about how our characters interact with them in spite or because of that.
My character has never interacted with "Anette", therefore has no opinion who that person may or may not be.
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My Character has been arguing IN-character against their claims to legitimacy, as chairpersons of the four major political parties in the Federation Senate.
And the characters in question should work In-Character to defend their claims. (Yes, I am supporting Soter.)
The characters in question are the CEO's of CONCORD regulated, Capsuleer corporations of the same name as the Fed political parties. These Capsuleer corporations can have a mission of bringing the message of the political party they support to the larger capsuleer community and those characters can claim to head up the efforts.
Claiming that they are chairpersons for non-capsuleer entities creates problems for some characters.
If Dex Nederland were to claim tomorrow that he sits on the Lai Dai Corporation board of directors, I would have to be able to defend said claims (which I can not). Anyone on IGS would be well within their "rights" to say bullshit and put a foot through part of my sandcastle.
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I'd like to comment here, but only briefly.
I created the New Eden Assembly. A lot of RPers here take part. CCP didn't shut us down and claim that we copied CONCORD ...
Not quite the same, but you would have raised eyebrows if you had said, or implied, that your organisation was part of, connected to or affiliated with CONCORD.
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Soter, I'm curious to know, in this regard, what you think of the character "Anette Inhonores". She's an in-game character I use for RP, as does Ciarente for Camille Roth. Both are female children.
I don't understand this question at all.
I don't know Anette, but Camille claims to be Ciarente's little sister. Neither of them has ever said or done anything that makes me (IC or OOC) suspect that claim. Neither is being Ciarente's little sister something that has something to do with wider-scale anything, or would have implications on anything but the Roth family and whatever Camille tries to blow up that week. Every interaction the characters make fits what I see with my own eyes (yes, even her membership in ReAw; I've actually asked about that IC and gotten an explanation).
The Gallente politicians on IGS, however, seem to me to be, like orange above says, "the CEO's of CONCORD-regulated capsuleer corporations of the same name as the Fed political parties". In my opinion, you cannot just make up a player corp and claim that is the same thing as a corp, party, or other organization from a chronicle, without other characters having a valid reason to ask about your credentials. You can, obviously, make a character who makes a corp that supports said parties, but that's different.
Don't want them to ask? Don't do that sort of stuff on IGS.
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I'd like to comment here, but only briefly.
I created the New Eden Assembly. A lot of RPers here take part. CCP didn't shut us down and claim that we copied CONCORD ...
Not quite the same, but you would have raised eyebrows if you had said, or implied, that your organisation was part of, connected to or affiliated with CONCORD.
This. You created an organization ran by capsuleers with some goals that fitted those of CONCORD's. You did not claim you were an NPC that is part of CONCORD. Clear difference there.
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If Dex Nederland were to claim tomorrow that he sits on the Lai Dai Corporation board of directors, I would have to be able to defend said claims (which I can not). Anyone on IGS would be well within their "rights" to say bullshit and put a foot through part of my sandcastle.
I agree. Afaik, the internals of Federation party politics haven't been touched in detail by CCP since a couple chrons way back, and they don't have any real presence in the game world like Lai Dai certainly does. I think your analogy has some merit, orange, but doesn't quite cover the nuance of this situation.
The Gallente politicians on IGS, however, seem to me to be, like orange above says, "the CEO's of CONCORD-regulated capsuleer corporations of the same name as the Fed political parties".
You did not claim you were an NPC that is part of CONCORD. Clear difference there.
To be fair these politicians don't claim to be NPCs either. They're clearly player characters, just not capsuleers. The inability for paying customers of CCP to create non-capsuleer characters that can interact with the official channels and game world of EVE is the root of this entire argument.
In my opinion, you cannot just make up a player corp and claim that is the same thing as a corp, party, or other organization from a chronicle, without other characters having a valid reason to ask about your credentials. You can, obviously, make a character who makes a corp that supports said parties, but that's different.
Don't want them to ask? Don't do that sort of stuff on IGS.
A lot of us, myself included, are decrying the motivations behind the (otherwise valid) criticisms, but the politicians have defended their legitimacy in an IC way on IGS. It's not as if they've simply ignored Soter altogether.
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Okay, so OOC, not everyone is going to agree, thought the 90% do, and are engaging in enjoyable RP. That's how it's going to be.
[mod]Please do not cast aspersions on the motives of other players, thank you. |[/mod]
Come on, just leave it be and let people have their fun? =/
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Where did my characters attend school?
Please provide responses so I can know who is a god-moding player that I can just go ahead and put on block now and get out of the way.
Because it sure as hell wasn't where the game systems say, it is what I wrote in their bios.
A lot of game systems were set up for gaming purposes, the metaphorical wrappings around them are just enough facade to go along with. That doesn't mean that new metaphorical wrappings and concepts are "wrong".
So for the last time: if you don't like it, stop participating. It is far less invasive for others to continue doing what they enjoy while you avoid it than for you to literally stir the shit pot and do everything you can to ICly draw even more attention to the inconsistencies that you decry as such an affront.
If you don't like that my characters did not attend war academies and such, instead having classic civilian educations, then we don't play together, I wouldn't expect you to stalk me from post to post constantly making mention of such an otherwise minor nuance while entirely ignoring the quality RP available if you could muster the cognitive will to glaze over what are entirely trivial details.
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The game is a sandbox and one's RP can impact another's.
Claiming to have influence over a governmental entities make-up (the Senate) and therefore the course of the Federation impacts the play of players claiming loyalty to the Federation. At some point, these characters might claim that their party is supporting legislation to strip Soter of his rank and that he no longer supports the Federation.
If Soter (or any player) previously recognized the legitimacy of these characters, he has now given up control of his roleplay to another player.
Just letting others have their fun has implications on an individual's roleplay.
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At some point, these characters might claim that their party is supporting legislation to strip Soter of his rank and that he no longer supports the Federation.
If Soter (or any player) previously recognized the legitimacy of these characters, he has now given up control of his roleplay to another player.
Very interesting extrapolation. I think it would go against the spirit of good "sportsmanship" that they've shown thus far imo, and isn't very likely, but possible. That's a fair point.
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The game is a sandbox and one's RP can impact another's.
Yup.
The two characters of mine who are paying attention to these guys won't interact with them for RP reasons. Would either pursue the aim of having them be proven as legitimate representatives of their parties? Heck no. That'd just attract the attention they're trying to avoid via their non-interaction.
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The game is a sandbox and one's RP can impact another's.
Claiming to have influence over a governmental entities make-up (the Senate) and therefore the course of the Federation impacts the play of players claiming loyalty to the Federation.
Claiming to have influence...impacts...others
No, it doesn't.
What has changed about your gameplay as a result of these politicians?
At some point, these characters might claim that their party is supporting legislation to strip Soter of his rank and that he no longer supports the Federation.
At some point, you might do something equally ridiculous, so I object you to RPing where I can see it.
Fair is fair.
What would happen as a result of such a post? Nothing, they are shell posting alts!
If Soter (or any player) previously recognized the legitimacy of these characters, he has now given up control of his roleplay to another player.
Your statement is true, but no more so than with any other player. Also, again: they can't actually do anything, they are shell alts.
If they go too far, they will lose any credibility gained (its not like legitimacy is a one-time decision life-term contract).
Just letting others have their fun has implications on an individual's roleplay.
It can.
This is the fundamental issue I don't understand with the objections. If the mere possibility of negative consequences exist, the idea is deemed unacceptable?
How many people must file objections to constitute a legitimate greivance? Should those people be required to prove damages or simply create a doomsday scenario of poor choices and campaign on that imagery alone?
Because I've got to say, if you set the bar as low as you seem to be in this instance to all players, then nobody would ever RP at all.
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The game is a sandbox and one's RP can impact another's.
Claiming to have influence over a governmental entities make-up (the Senate) and therefore the course of the Federation impacts the play of players claiming loyalty to the Federation. At some point, these characters might claim that their party is supporting legislation to strip Soter of his rank and that he no longer supports the Federation.
If Soter (or any player) previously recognized the legitimacy of these characters, he has now given up control of his roleplay to another player.
Just letting others have their fun has implications on an individual's roleplay.
I think there is a key point here, though. You have to choose the let people into 'your' part of the sandbox, and you even choose the terms on which they are allowed in. I probably wouldn't interact with these people IC. My feeling is that they are over-reaching with some of their claims, etc. I mean that only in relation to what I would feel comfortable involving my characters in.
That doesn't mean that they are doing it wrong, and they have no control over my RP except what I choose to give them. Interaction lends legitimacy.
I think they should feel free to RP in whatever way they want. There is no requirement that anyone else RP with them if they don't like it, and if you do choose to engage them IC, you can of course do so by calling them crazy or whatever else you would like.
I think if you feel it necessary to bring in game mechanics etc, you might stop for a moment and evaluate exactly how much of a negative impact they are really having on your gameplay, and if it is really necessary to jump through those kind of hoops to try and discredit them. There were times, earlier in my RP career, when I started down that path, because it is satisfying on some level to go, 'Ah-ha! That's against the rules!' I'm careful not to do that, anymore, because I realized that it added virtually nothing to my game, potentially took something from other people's games, and that ultimately any 'game mechanics are like this so you have to do things this way' arguments I made could well one day be turned on me, when I wanted to do something interesting and slightly outside the box.
My own experience in this area was the Happy Chip thing. Someone pointed out they were not an item that was on the market IG, and it wasn't a big deal - 'they're somewhere in consumer electronics, etc'. I'm sure they or someone else could have made a bigger deal out of the fact that the entire thing was, you know, make believe OOC. Noone did, and I think a lot of fun was had by all.
I'm sure there were people who ignored it, because it wasn't their kind of thing, and that's fine. Similarly, I think when people create opportunities for others to derive enjoyment from the game it's wonderful, even if they aren't all the sorts that appeal to me or that I feel would fit in comfortably with my RP.
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You did not claim you were an NPC that is part of CONCORD. Clear difference there.
To be fair these politicians don't claim to be NPCs either. They're clearly player characters, just not capsuleers. The inability for paying customers of CCP to create non-capsuleer characters that can interact with the official channels and game world of EVE is the root of this entire argument.
Bad choice of words from me. "You did not claim you were a non-capsuleer that is part of CONCORD" would have been better.
I agree that the inability to make non-capsuleer characters is at the heart of the matter. How I interpret that is that for most purposes, you shouldn't. Players are supposed to play capsuleers; non-capsuleers in our work belong to EVE fiction, not to IGS.
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*reads last 8 pages*
My god. I thought I was a nerd.
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*reads last 8 pages*
My god. I thought I was a nerd.
Don't forget the three pages of responses created in >24 hours in the corresponding poll thread I started. /o\
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*reads last 8 pages*
My god. I thought I was a nerd.
And the sad thing is, all of them were probably sober when they posted.
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And the sad thing is, all of them were probably sober when they posted.
I wasn't.
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And the sad thing is, all of them were probably sober when they posted.
I wasn't.
Note the careful use of 'probably'. *lifts her glass*
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*reads last 8 pages*
My god. I thought I was a nerd.
And the sad thing is, all of them were probably sober when they posted.
I wasn't.
Note the careful use of 'probably'. *lifts her glass*
^ So these were not attempts at levity posted in good humor? :roll:
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*reads last 8 pages*
My god. I thought I was a nerd.
And the sad thing is, all of them were probably sober when they posted.
I wasn't.
Note the careful use of 'probably'. *lifts her glass*
^ So these were not attempts at levity posted in good humor? :roll:
Yes, this was an attempt at levity posted in good humor.
I tend to mark my personal attacks with [mod cut here] [/mod cut here].
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I too, appreciated the levity.
Now I expect to be roasted for returning to a discussion (across all the threads) I have already made a "last comment" in.
:9
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I too, appreciated the levity.
Now I expect to be roasted for returning to a discussion (across all the threads) I have already made a "last comment" in.
:9
Oh, don't you worry about that. I believe I've done that twice in this particular case.
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[mod]Discussion of moderation belongs in the appropriate section [/mod]