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[Saede Riordan]

Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.

I'd like to stop there for a moment and poke at something that has been bothering me. Why is a sexually assertive character considered "lol" and looked down on? I get that it can be done poorly, but I don't think its a good attitude to harbour that if sexuality is considered a character focus that "obviously that person is just trawling for ERP." Sexuality is a major part of people's lives and I see no reason why it could not be part of the focus of a character as long as, as with everything else, its done well and isn't the only aspect of the character. Saede at least is a sex positive, openly promiscuous person, she thinks sex is good and people should have more of it. That's obviously not the only aspect of the character, but it is an aspect, and I don't think its fair to get put into the category of 'lol'

I also find it funny that IRL a lot of strong assertive women are called out as lesbians for not going along with the societal expectations like shaving and such. That's one of the things that people seem to miss sometimes, is that the act of playing a strong assertive female character might cause them as a character to deviate from western conceptions of 'ideal female' and that's something that I think should be addressed a bit. My character doesn't shave her pits and refuses to wear dresses. I think that a lot of male players, who are culturally expected to be dominant and assertive IRL, want their female characters to fit the westernized cultural expectations of femininity, while still being 'allowed' to have the confidence and assertiveness expected of men. I see this as wanting to eat your cake and have it too and it somewhat irritates me. There are complex social norms that dictate the way women behave in our IRL society, especially with things like dress, hygiene, and sexuality. Many of these social norms just seem to have been imported wholesale into New Eden, and people just seem to take them for granted. I would like to see people really stretch outside of those social norms. They're already breaking them just by having women that aren't doormats.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

while I see why the one group might not want to besimply thrown in the same pot as the other, I agree with Saede, I don't know why one of them should be thought of as 'lol'. Then, again, I didn't read you, Morwen, as saying that they are, but rather as saying that they are often referred to as such?

As to whether strong, assertive woman need to shave or not, I don't know if there is a relation. A woman can be strong, assertive and attractive regardless of whether she shaves or not, imho. Same goes for men.

[Cynthia Gallente]

Last night was the first time I saw "space lesbian" used as a derogatory term.
I didn't think that it would bother me, but it did.
You can have a character who has a ton of shit going on.  Getting involved in a lot of aspects...
But suddenly all of that becomes irrelevant and "space lesbian" is the only part that matters, even if your character doesn't use that as the forefront of who they are.
Furthermore why would "space" be part of the term?  Do we call people "earth lesbians?" What's wrong with just using lesbian?  Homosexual?  Not really caring? because it doesn't impact gameplay terribly.

Also there are quite a few nice guys out there, they can be hard to find, but they are certainly there.

[Samira Kernher]

Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.

I'd like to stop there for a moment and poke at something that has been bothering me. Why is a sexually assertive character considered "lol" and looked down on? I get that it can be done poorly, but I don't think its a good attitude to harbour that if sexuality is considered a character focus that "obviously that person is just trawling for ERP." Sexuality is a major part of people's lives and I see no reason why it could not be part of the focus of a character as long as, as with everything else, its done well and isn't the only aspect of the character. Saede at least is a sex positive, openly promiscuous person, she thinks sex is good and people should have more of it. That's obviously not the only aspect of the character, but it is an aspect, and I don't think its fair to get put into the category of 'lol'

This. I've previously played characters like this, and it's extremely annoying how much flak you can get for it. Even if you don't actually take it anywhere (keeping it in the background, so to speak), simply adding that attribute to the character gets you all manner of backtalk and rumor-milling.

Any vaguely-sexual female character is going to have a tough time of it, sadly. Whether lesbian, slave (EVE having widespread slavery in its lore makes it somewhat less prominent here, but in other MMO RP the word 'slave' is used in the same negative light as space lesbian), sexually-assertive, etc, there's so many people that misuse it to make it so that those who are trying to treat it seriously have to fight a constant uphill battle.

[Vincent Pryce]

Furthermore why would "space" be part of the term?  Do we call people "earth lesbians?" What's wrong with just using lesbian?  Homosexual?  Not really caring? because it doesn't impact gameplay terribly.

Because it's fucking funny. 

[Anslol]

Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.

I'd like to stop there for a moment and poke at something that has been bothering me. Why is a sexually assertive character considered "lol" and looked down on? I get that it can be done poorly, but I don't think its a good attitude to harbour that if sexuality is considered a character focus that "obviously that person is just trawling for ERP." Sexuality is a major part of people's lives and I see no reason why it could not be part of the focus of a character as long as, as with everything else, its done well and isn't the only aspect of the character. Saede at least is a sex positive, openly promiscuous person, she thinks sex is good and people should have more of it. That's obviously not the only aspect of the character, but it is an aspect, and I don't think its fair to get put into the category of 'lol'

This. I've previously played characters like this, and it's extremely annoying how much flak you can get for it. Even if you don't actually take it anywhere (keeping it in the background, so to speak), simply adding that attribute to the character gets you all manner of backtalk and rumor-milling.

Any vaguely-sexual female character is going to have a tough time of it, sadly. Whether lesbian, slave (EVE having widespread slavery in its lore makes it somewhat less prominent here, but in other MMO RP the word 'slave' is used in the same negative light as space lesbian), sexually-assertive, etc, there's so many people that misuse it to make it so that those who are trying to treat it seriously have to fight a constant uphill battle.

OK, I'll start by saying I don't play a space lesbian, but I can't help but resonate with Saede and Samira. The fact is that New Eden is a big place with a lot of different people. The idea that 'lol space lesbian' or 'lol space whore' is even a thing given everything else that happens in this stupid cluster is somewhat mind boggling.

For all we try to talk down urdoinitwrong accusations, there's still the same prevalent whispers and rumor mongering against not just the character, but the player as well. This is not limited to people who play more promiscuous characters, but to anyone who seemingly breaks the norm in general.

I'll plainly state that I made Anslo unique because the opportunity was there. Why would I make another 'normal' capsuleer when I could do something more interesting? I'll get the 'lol plot device' line now and then and I've been told to be more creative. I'm sorry, but who the hell are you to tell me what is and is not creative? We have enough head cases and such running around, why can't we have something a bit off the wall?

The same for more sexually oriented characters. Why should they be looked down on for playing the promiscuous woman in the high heels? Yes sure you can be a bit too blatant about it (we all know what they act like) to the point of near harassment, but that doesn't mean ANY flirtatious or sultry character should just be looked down upon.

Hell, no player should be looked down upon as 'unoriginal,' or looked at as a cop out for their RP. Sex oriented, psycho oriented, experiment oriented, villain oriented, why should ANY of them be looked down on? As long as you aren't god moding every single RP or RPing just to troll the players, you should never, EVER be looked down on for your character or those choices.

This goes not just for space lesbian, but for anyone RPing something new and interesting. No one should be afraid to RP what they like, ever.

[Morwen Lagann]

You were right, Nico - that's why I used the "".

Because roleplay in EVE is supposedly srsbsns (lol in and of itself, really), things that we have difficulty taking seriously tend to be labeled with "lol" as a prefix.

It is completely possible to portray an openly sexually assertive character, straight or not, male or female, without making it look like the character was ripped straight out of your average porno. (Red Miromme is one of the characters that I can name off the top of my head that, imo, "does it right". She's flirty and playful -aggressively so, in some ways - but she doesn't come across as Voluptuous Gallente Bimbo #4123 when doing so.) The issue here is that so many people that have "sexually assertive" characters do come across as if they were taken from some random porno. That is what makes people refer to them as "lol" - they are difficult for most people to take seriously, just like the porn they feel like they were ripped from.

Let me repeat: I do not have a problem with characters for whom their sexuality is a primary defining attribute. I do not have a problem with characters who are assertive about it either - I mean, Morwen is engaged to someone who used to be like that all the time, FFS. What I do have a problem with is that my character has the behavior and shenanigans of the stereotypical porn-inspired characters unfairly and inaccurately attributed to her.

It comes down to how the characters are portrayed. If the character is portrayed in a manner that doesn't make them look like a straight rip from a porn flick, it is a lot easier to take the character seriously - both from the perspectives of our characters and as players - but when they do look like that... well, that's when people break out the srsbsns masks and the "lol" prefixes.

If one wants to use porn as an inspiration, they should go right ahead. But if one wants to do that and be taken seriously, it will be rather difficult unless they avoid putting that inspiration to use in public places and keep it to the bedroom where it makes sense.

Edit - tl;dr, it's not being sexually assertive in itself that garners one the "lol". It's the portrayal of that assertiveness, and how seriously that portrayal can be taken. Porn stereotypes are not likely to be taken seriously.

[Synthia]

Synthia: "I have been Informed that an Unrighteous Dress may attract a Space Lesbian"
Summit user A: "what's a spacelesbian, Synthia?"
Synthia: "A space lesbian is a lesbian that is in Space"
Summit user B: "heh, alright, what's a lesbian, Synthia?"
Synthia: "a Lesbian is a Human Woman that likes Other human Women"
Summit user A: "there are non-human women?"
Synthia: "Yes ?"

[Katrina Oniseki]

Synthia: "I have been Informed that an Unrighteous Dress may attract a Space Lesbian"
Summit user A: "what's a spacelesbian, Synthia?"
Synthia: "A space lesbian is a lesbian that is in Space"
Summit user B: "heh, alright, what's a lesbian, Synthia?"
Synthia: "a Lesbian is a Human Woman that likes Other human Women"
Summit user A: "there are non-human women?"
Synthia: "Yes ?"

As an IC discussion, and coming from Synthia, this doesn't surprise me. She's fairly blunt and naive about things.

[Lyn Farel]

lol, that one was completely silly 

I would love to see the first player trying to make an homosexual Amarr male priest. Ohlol the drama.

I'd like to see it done without being a caricature of the shit going on in the real world. Unfortunately that might be an unreasonable thing to hope for. :\

It's bound to be 'space-catholic child molester' drama, really, whether the person depicts the char as such or not. Unfortunately.

Yes, my assertion was mostly cynical. It's a shame, really, though. After seeing what Noh is capable of doing it gave me suddenly all sort of weird ideas.

Also, I think you may have nailed the thing I was looking for. Homosexual female chars often tend to be assertive and strong, and so often find each other more easily than males.

Furthermore why would "space" be part of the term?  Do we call people "earth lesbians?" What's wrong with just using lesbian?  Homosexual?  Not really caring? because it doesn't impact gameplay terribly.

Because people in Eve just use "space" as a prefix for almost everything, from space bushido to starcakes. I am not sure it is really related to the lesbian stuff, it's just a way for people to call the lesbians belonging to the eve world/community.

[kalaratiri]

Spaaaace Maaaaaaaan

[Iwan Terpalen]

Regarding the OP:

I've been using the "spacelesbian" as a convenient handle for the radically skewed gender and orientation phenomenon quite a while now, for basically the same reasons Vince stated; it is amusing to me to see the way many people arrive in roughly the same place, by the same reasoning, and having a term to describe it that made me smile seemed natural.

Amusement without derision, though. While a lot of characters fit the profile, it's not a bad profile by itself. To me, it seems obvious that the "lolspacelesbian" subgenus, the one played purely for the purpose of titillation, is actually quite rare, and the ones we do get tend to not last very long. Taken individually, all the rest are, from what I've seen, actually quite interesting characters.

So, explanation aside, I'm still sorry if I gave a dismissive or negative impression doing so. I'll try to express myself more carefully.

[Sakura Nihil]

Nico: I think that goes back to the last post I wrote. I'd feel comfortable guessing that most of women (characters) who are strong and assertive outside of the realm of sexuality fall into the "don't call us space lesbians" group, whereas most of those for whom sexuality is the focus of the strong/assertive behavior fall into the "lol space lesbians" category that the other group doesn't want to be associated with.

I'd like to stop there for a moment and poke at something that has been bothering me. Why is a sexually assertive character considered "lol" and looked down on? I get that it can be done poorly, but I don't think its a good attitude to harbour that if sexuality is considered a character focus that "obviously that person is just trawling for ERP." Sexuality is a major part of people's lives and I see no reason why it could not be part of the focus of a character as long as, as with everything else, its done well and isn't the only aspect of the character. Saede at least is a sex positive, openly promiscuous person, she thinks sex is good and people should have more of it. That's obviously not the only aspect of the character, but it is an aspect, and I don't think its fair to get put into the category of 'lol'

This. I've previously played characters like this, and it's extremely annoying how much flak you can get for it. Even if you don't actually take it anywhere (keeping it in the background, so to speak), simply adding that attribute to the character gets you all manner of backtalk and rumor-milling.

It's especially irritating considering that people's responses to it depends on the gender of the character in question.  If it's a man openly trawling for a booty call, he's usually encouraged by onlookers, and the entire situation tends to be seen as comical or "just his nature".  Yet when a woman does it, it seems we're back in the 17th Century, complete with puritan attitudes about how said woman is a slut, should be ashamed of herself, et cetera et cetera.  It's a double standard and it pisses me off to no end.

One other thing to consider - our characters are fairly young, on the whole, probably 18-30 in the majority.  Add in vast power and wealth afforded to them by capsuleer status (and fan clubs?), mix it with poor impulse control, and the fact that we're not throwing drunk debaucheries on a nightly basis astounds me.  EVE: Frat House Edition.

[Morwen Lagann]

One other thing to consider - our characters are fairly young, on the whole, probably 18-30 in the majority.  Add in vast power and wealth afforded to them by capsuleer status (and fan clubs?), mix it with poor impulse control, and the fact that we're not throwing drunk debaucheries on a nightly basis astounds me.  EVE: Frat House Edition.

We had this twice. Remember Revan's "New Eden's Top Model" competitions?

Those were a ton of fun.

[Sepherim]

Actuall, like half of the days in Le Maison would fall into that cathegory. And some other channels too (I think Naphtalia's Black Bunny one had a lot of flirting going on as well, but may be mistaking it with other channel).