Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 11 Sep 2012, 14:46
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I'm going to bring up something that seems to be a topic of RP constantly, and ask on public terms. There seems to be a lot of confusion about Stillwater's allegiances, and while I think I can understand the approach/logic you're going for here, I don't think others can, nor do I feel it to be a sustainable approach.
The idea is that Stillwater is secretly Angel Cartel, but publicly legit, correct? Nonetheless, there is publicly available OOC information about the Angel Cartel ties here and in-game, with no effort made to hide it. IC, this is denied, and there appears to be multiple player conflicts on the matter, with one side accusing the other of breaking the IC/OOC barrier.
The problem is, is that when the "secret" details are so publicly available (even if marked OOC), how can it be expected that using details such as corporation descriptions and titles is breaking the line? There are many IC excuses for this, such as GalNet searches, rumours, reports, and so forth. For example, when a completely newb RPer who has no idea what the barriers and boundaries are (after all, there is no written rules about RP) looks into Stillwater's IC corporate description, they go "Oh, they're an Angel corporation". When asked IC, they are told otherwise, and this would just confuse them as inconsistent, as it has done with many people already.
To use an analogy, it is like organizing a party game, where everyone already knows the answers and how to get the goal, but the judge is expecting everyone to forget about the solutions for the sake of the game. How can one ensure that nobody cheats, the same way one can't guarantee or hold someone to account for "breaking the game" when the answer is so clear?
In short, I don't think one can expect everyone to ignore the OOC details, nor can anyone be held to account for using the publicly available detail IC when there is no consensus or any written rules on what the IC/OOC divisions are. If it helps, I have previously supported the approach, what with the whole "The capsuleers may know us to be Angels, but the baseliners certainly don't". I think you're better off removing overt Angel Cartel references and keeping it internal. It just appears very confusing.
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It is a risk to be taken (or not), I believe. As long as Stillwater are fine with it... It is like personnal blogs and the likes. A lot of people say that it is OOC knowledge only. It is a risk they take, but as long as they are fine with it...
However, the angel affiliation was present on the corp info (IC) when I was still playing. For me, it was IC knowledge.
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Well, I guess I'm sort of cynically assuming Stillwater are taking OOC issue with it all despite IC...so I suppose you're right Lyn if Stillwater are cool with it.
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It's the fact that they have information in their public Bio, and they have corp titles that scream "Angel corporation".
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There are many IC excuses for this, such as GalNet searches, rumours, reports, and so forth. For example, when a completely newb RPer who has no idea what the barriers and boundaries are (after all, there is no written rules about RP) looks into Stillwater's IC corporate description, they go "Oh, they're an Angel corporation".
They can suspect what they want? If someone is willing to accept any hints and accusations they are given without analyzing them themselves, that gives you more info on themselves than the supposed problem.
It's the fact that they have information in their public Bio, and they have corp titles that scream "Angel corporation".
Information that insinuates certain data, but doesn't prove anything; on the contrary. Most public data shows that MIO and FIO and institutions like that have doubts regarding Stillwater, but can't prove anything. Because they really can't. I'll let Lyn answer that one really.
It is a risk to be taken (or not), I believe. As long as Stillwater are fine with it... It is like personnal blogs and the likes. A lot of people say that it is OOC knowledge only. It is a risk they take, but as long as they are fine with it...
Stillwater's corporate titles are not public IC info, they're OOC, but are kept outside of (( )) brackets cause that would look retarded. Simple as that.
So please stop treating that info as IC because it's not.
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The only thing however that made Lyn believe ICly that Stillwater were Cartel affiliated has always been their corp description (is it still the case ?). Anyone can add angel like corp titles and call himself an angel saint, nephilim, or whatever, but that does not mean that he actually is one. Anyone can call himself emperor of the Amarr Empire as well.
But stating in the corp description that the corp is Angel affiliated is... a little different. Doesn't mean that they are, like any corp claiming they are Ishukone subsidiaries, or working for RSS, or whatever, but that's a pretty solid hint though.
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Leo, heres the thing.
People treat those bios as IC info, and it doesnt matter how much you tell them not to, because they do. And once someone's character knows something, you can't then say "I want you to make your character forget the thing they know and have brought up numerous times, IC", because you do not have the power to tell someone to retcon what their character has and has not done in a public setting.
If nothing else, your corporation has been in Naraka. It's an Angel Cartel corporation. On top of that its Bio (which is knowable with two clicks from the neocomm interface itself, having NOTHING to with the In Game Browser even which is where things get tricky) states it is an Angel Cartel corporation, and it's corporate titles (which most people consider to be IC info, I know Tib's had people bring up the 'Harvester' thing IC, and I had no complaints) are all obvious Angel Titles.
Considering this, people (fairly) have their characters know Stillwater is an Angel corporation, and it actually comes across as a fairly dick move to then go to those people and say "Ignore everything you've ever done as an interaction with Stillwater, you fucks".
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The other thing, which I said on TS yesterday, is that just because for you, Titles are considered OOC, doesn't mean they are for other people. I treat titles as IC and bios as well, and I know a lot of other people do too. You can draw the OOC/IC divide wherever you want, but you cannot expect everyone else to draw it in the same place as you, or respect the place you have drawn it, and that's simply the unfortunate truth about an RP medium like eve. Its better to air on the side of caution and just not have it visible OOC at all in my mind. If you want something to be a secret, it should be a secret across the board.
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I tend to treat titles IC as well, although I can see the argument for treating it as OOC knowledge. In your case a simple ooc disclaimer in the corp desc should be enough?
However what is valid is the Naraka past - this is a legit way to think about these accusations allegiances. It's no proof, though.
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Stillwater was never in Naraka, nor has ever been blue with it, so I have no idea where are you pulling these from.
As for the OOC/IC divide, this is why we're discussing it here is not?
Simple, it's OOC info, end of discussion. If you want to use OOC info in an IC context, go ahead.
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Sorry about that, you were, when you were in Ghost Festival. It's not OOC info, it's accessable using tools widely considered to be IC and our characters have commented on it IC.
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And what does Ghost Festival have to do with Stillwater? >_>
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You were in it?
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You were in it?
And Kybernetes was in Electus Matari, it doesn't mean he's 'secretly minmatar'
Capsuleers change loyalties all the time, if you're going to call that evidence Tibs, I'd call it weak evidence at best.
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We still consider corporate titles IC, along with any public information not clearly labeled as OOC. I am also, frankly, not going to retcon my character because someone asks me to, especially when they do it in an overly condescending way that presumes that they have any right whatsoever to order me around (OOC).
Feel free to use TS-F's public info, if you like, in return? We've always been careful to treat anything someone could see as completely IC -just to avoid situations like this-.
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Well, I was going to have HOLR engage against WHIST after declaring them enemies of righteousness for their affiliation with the Angel Cartel, especially since I've obtained substantial IC evidence pertaining to that affiliation. However, since it seems that none of this "evidence" is supposed to exist and any reference to WHIST being part of the Cartel is apparently OOC/IC blurring no matter how it was obtained or what source is used, I suppose I'll just avoid interaction on that front.
However you might want to clean up your DED Public Profile (http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9482/leopoldcaineded.jpg), your corporation titles, your corporate description, your corporate headquarters, quite a few gathered logs of your in-character interactions which suggest to (if not outright demonstrate) this affiliation, your slogan "Angels are never far..." several of your IGS posts which reference the Salvation Angels fondly or supportively...
The list could get longer but the point is that there is substantial reason to suspect WHIST's Angel Cartel association. I'm somewhat saddened to see that this is all apparently unintentional and completely breaking the IC/OOC divide.
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I think this falls into the realm of something I had trouble with, wherein I thought I was leaving an interesting trail of breadcrumbs for players to follow and discover things, when in reality, it was more like a trail of anvils. To the WHIST folks, from your perspective, there might not be that much public evidence, and the evidence left might be supposed to be hard to find, but it isn't. There's definitely such a thing as being too heavy handed with your clues, and I think this is a good example of that.
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Wait, WTF? Stillwater runs around with a neon sign that says "hey look everyone we're Cartel!" Then when anyone points this out they stick their fingers in their ears and say "lalalalala you can't prove anything!" It's like you want to play pirates, and you want everyone to know that you're pirates, but you never want to face any of the IC consequences for being pirates. What's the fucking point?
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Stillwater's corporate titles are not public IC info, they're OOC, but are kept outside of (( )) brackets cause that would look retarded. Simple as that.
So please stop treating that info as IC because it's not.
Haha, no.
You're right that putting brackets around the titles would look retarded. It's a small price to pay for insisting on taking what amounts to a retarded position in the eyes of most people, though. All I have to do is click on your name in the Summit, and there it is. If that doesn't count as accessible IC, what's next, your corporation name and ticker?
Stillwater was never in Naraka, nor has ever been blue with it, so I have no idea where are you pulling these from.
As for the OOC/IC divide, this is why we're discussing it here is not?
Simple, it's OOC info, end of discussion. If you want to use OOC info in an IC context, go ahead.
Stillwater wasn't in Naraka, but you were as a member of Ghost Festival. Leo was pretty obviously Cartel during that time period.
As for "never having been blue", Stillwater was not only blue to Naraka (+5) for a while after you left Ghost Festival, it had also been blue to Ghost Festival (and presumably PRELI) long prior to your membership in either organization - in fact, while Ghost Festival was still operating out of Hasateem.
And this IC/OOC divide claim of yours is utter nonsense. People knew IC about Stillwater's Cartel connections and affiliations long before Leo was a member of the corp. They knew about Leo's connections and affiliations long before he was a member of Stillwater.
The key to successfully getting your way when it comes to asking for what amounts to a retcon, is to ask nicely (you haven't, judging by evemails and logs from OOC) for reasonable levels of change (a couple days of private RP is one thing; public RP is another entirely, let alone a couple YEARS instead of days) that don't cause a cascade of crap needing rewriting (again, a couple years of RP in public, not so retconnable).
In short, sleep in the bed you made for yourself. Whining and ranting at people for noticing your shitty housekeeping skills when you invited them into your house isn't going to get you anywhere.
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That sure is a lot of boasting. :o
If it was only about corp titles, that's nothing really. If i were Leo I would just answer to people pointing at them and telling "WTF YOU HAVE ANGEL TITLES SO YOU ARE ANGEL !", "Yeah well, I could also put instead 'THE MAKER', and you would believe that I am the Maker ? You gullible fool". That would be pretty cool for a 'vilain' corporation to use such PR tricks. ^^
But seriously, if the lack of "OOC" tags make people so furious, I may be missing something somewhere. In either way though, Leo, I think you should really add OOC tags as much as possible especially in public info ingame and on outgame sources. Makes things a lot easier. And even with those, we still see from time to time dramas with people that have other mindsets and that think that "every piece of info I can get my hands on is now of my knowledge". No need to make it even more complicated without even tags, I think.
Stillwater wasn't in Naraka, but you were as a member of Ghost Festival. Leo was pretty obviously Cartel during that time period.
And ? I don't disagree with the rest, but are people really reading what others post before answering ? :/
So following your reasoning, since Morwen was Guristas in the past, I suppose that your current corp is guristas affiliated as well ? And since Tibs had amarrian ideals before going sansha, that means obviously that TSF have always actually been amarrian illuminati heh ? That seems a bit stretched to me, although not really new in the RP world though.
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Both Morwen and Tibs had very public breaking with their previous allegiances. Leopold went from one known Angel corp to another. Its reasonable to assume that the overall loyalty didn't change.
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The founder of Stillwater Corp was also an Angel and there isn't any information obtainable anywhere that Stillwater severed ties to the Angels. As I stated originally, there's a lot of reasons to believe Stillwater is tied to the Angels and very few reasons to believe otherwise.
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are people really reading what others post before answering ? :/
Yes, we are. If you'd bothered to read ahead a couple sentences you'd see that what Saede said isn't relevant to what I said, nor is it really relevant to this particular case.
I didn't say it was just his being in the corp that made him Cartel. It was things he did and said, while a member of Ghost Festival, that made him clearly Cartel, just as it was things that people within Stillwater did and said before Leo was a member, that made Stillwater a Cartel corporation.
Regarding Morwen and Tib, you're making a false analogy. As Tib pointed out, Tib went from a number of above-board industrial corporations to an organization affiliated with Sansha's Nation, and Morwen went from a pirate organization affiliated with the Guristas to a completely above-board and law-abiding corporation dedicated to keeping various parts of space clean of criminal and outlaw presence. Anyone who knew Morwen back then could never call her a Cartel or Guristas loyalist and still manage keep a straight face while doing so; especially not Myrhial or Verone. This is not the case with Leo.
Leo went from one known Cartel corporation to another known Cartel corporation, as a known and admitted Cartel loyalist.
Regarding the lack of OOC "tags"... at this point, it won't do anything. It's an unreasonable request at a date far too late. The information's been out in the wild IC for ages. A couple brackets added now won't change that a bunch of people have known for a long while - all it will change is that new people will just have to find out from the old people, which, let's be perfectly blunt about this: that's no different from how it is already.
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Both Morwen and Tibs had very public breaking with their previous allegiances. Leopold went from one known Angel corp to another. Its reasonable to assume that the overall loyalty didn't change.
It is ?
Firstly, why should people be going public about their changes of loyalties ?
Secondly, in a capsuleer world, reasonable ? Well, why not, but that sounds a bit naive.
Well, that's my feeling anyway. My own character changed of (public) allegiance several times and never bothered to make any public announcement about it. That would have been otherwise quite... arrogant, or pompous to say the least.
Some people have of course asked her what was that all about and if that was an allegiance change. She answered that no, it wasn't. A few believed her, a lot of others did not (since it was amarr -> gallente -> amarr and then amarr -> SoCT which was her true allegiance in the first place). Yes, some characters play shady allegiances and double loyalties, like I did, and like Leo does. The problem with Leo is probably what we are discussing here, however. A certain blur between OOC tags and what is IC knowledge.
The founder of Stillwater Corp was also an Angel and there isn't any information obtainable anywhere that Stillwater severed ties to the Angels. As I stated originally, there's a lot of reasons to believe Stillwater is tied to the Angels and very few reasons to believe otherwise.
That's what I stated too above. Too many obvious clues IC to miss the fact.
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Yes, we are. If you'd bothered to read ahead a couple sentences you'd see that what Saede said isn't relevant to what I said, nor is it really relevant to this particular case.
I didn't say it was just him being in the corp that made him Cartel. It was things he did and said, while a member of Ghost Festival, that made him clearly Cartel, just as it was things that people within Stillwater did and said before Leo was a member, that made Stillwater a Cartel corporation.
Again, you did not read what I wrote then. I do not see how something (cartel affiliated) that a character said in his previous corporation systematically means that he is Cartel affiliated in his new corporation, and I do not see how it also makes by fact the new corporation an angel corporation.
What it means, however, is that people will be suspicious. "Is your new corporation angel affiliated ?" might well be what some will be asking. How he answered to that ICly afterwise, I do not know, though. What I know however is that too IC many clues, as said above by many others, leaded to believe it was the case.
Regarding Morwen and Tib, you're making a false analogy. As Tib pointed out, Tib went from a number of above-board industrial corporations to an organization affiliated with Sansha's Nation, and Morwen went from a pirate organization affiliated with the Guristas to a completely above-board and law-abiding corporation dedicated to keeping various parts of space clean of criminal and outlaw presence. Anyone who knew Morwen back then could never call her a Cartel or Guristas loyalist and still manage keep a straight face while doing so; especially not Myrhial or Verone. This is not the case with Leo.
Leo went from one known Cartel corporation to another known Cartel corporation, as a known and admitted Cartel loyalist.
Regarding the lack of OOC "tags"... at this point, it won't do anything. It's an unreasonable request at a date far too late. The information's been out in the wild IC for ages. A couple brackets added now won't change that a bunch of people have known for a long while - all it will change is that new people will just have to find out from the old people, which, let's be perfectly blunt about this: that's no different from how it is already.
I agree, and never said otherwise. You put words in my mouth.
Edit : oh you know what ? We probably are unable to understand each other and maybe never will. I do not want to argue with you over this, especially since we do not even have a clear disagreement over the matter. >.>
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I do not see how something (cartel affiliated) that a character said in his previous corporation systematically means that he is Cartel affiliated in his new corporation, and I do not see how it also makes by fact the new corporation an angel corporation.
Stillwater being Cartel has nothing to do with Leo. It was Cartel before Leo had anything to do with it. His own words and actions, and those of others around him, have outed him as being Cartel many times, both before and after he was part of Ghost Festival or Stillwater. I do not know how to make that more clear to you.
I agree, and never said otherwise. You put words in my mouth.
If you agree, why are you posting in a contradictory fashion? Arguing for the sake of arguing?
Edit : oh you know what ? We probably are unable to understand each other and maybe never will. I do not want to argue with you over this, especially since we do not even have a clear disagreement over the matter. >.>
You're the only one who seems to be having trouble understanding anything I'm saying. The problem is pretty clearly on your end, Lyn.
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Please read:
http://arcadianewsnetwork.net/2011/01/08/stillwater-corporation-sever-ties-with-serpentisangel-bloc/ (http://arcadianewsnetwork.net/2011/01/08/stillwater-corporation-sever-ties-with-serpentisangel-bloc/)
I love the part where everyone is trying to grasp some semantics part to prove their assumption of Stillwater being Angel, with Arcadia News stating they haven't been Angels for a whole year by now. But of course, using OOC intel found in people's bios is more fun than actually checking any actual IC newsfacts and things like that.
Let's put it like this; you might say me saying corp titles are OOC is a dick move. But no, it's not. Leopold has never in public proclaimed himself to be Fua's Domination Malakim. There is no other IC evidence of him being angel besides 'he joined this other corp that is dude, kinda angel'
Before I continue, Stillwater was never +5 with Naraka and even shot down a Naraka BC (I think it was Inara Subaka's Harbinger, but not 100% sure) during our roams.
Stillwater never appriceated lack of Naraka's subterfuge and their ties to the Guristas.
The single Naraka memeber given blue standings was Myrhial Arkenath, as she needed some isk for a plex and didn't want to get shot by as while doing her exploration in the area.
I think the issue we're having here is a matter of who's making a dick move, as I was accused of making one.
The reality is, you have started your assumption that you are 100% right, picked up some OOC info, made up your own mind that it's all working as intended.
Right.
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So hang on. The argument is that Stillwater used to be openly cartel, and is now openly not cartel while still secretly being cartel? And we should all believe IC that they aren't cartel anymore because... they said so?
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I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination. Seems to me if you want to be secretly :something:, you should go about it in a secretive way. If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck... vOv
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Indeed.
The issue here is not any one piece of evidence weighed against your word (for example, if Stillwater being HQ'ed at a Cartel station were the only hint, then the claim that it is for a tax haven would be more understandable; if it were merely that Stillwater had Angel ties in the past, but nothing notable now, a change of direction might be more believable).
The issue is the confluence of evidence that is available entirely IC that comes together to paint a very distinct picture: Stillwater is a well-known Cartel-allied corporation and was before you took over; before being CEO of which you left another Cartel-allied corporation. Once you took over, you continued to deck yourself out in ship names, corp titles, and the insignia of the Cartel while basing out of a Cartel station.
Even putting aside the various statements of characters who have known Stillwater confirming its affiliations, this is a damning lineup.
Weighed against this, we've got just Leopold's IC word, and a single article on a news network edited by a Serpentis affiliate - both of whom represent interests who have very understandable IC reasoning to want to keep Stillwater's record clean regardless of reality.
Given this situation, it is quite logical to assume that people may accept Stillwater's involvement and allegiance to the Angel Cartel.
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I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination.
I'm sorry, my Backstage sig is now something that should be regarded as 'public IC knowledge' ?
Given this situation, it is quite logical to assume that people may accept Stillwater's involvement and allegiance to the Angel Cartel.
Accept, assume, yes. As long as it stays in the field of speculations, rumours, etc., you can speculate all you want.
Once people start using OOC info as IC knowledge, or using OOC info as IC 'proof', that's where a line has to be drawn. And this is is the issue at the moment.
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You know, I think the process of accusation and denial is essential when playing the line that an organization or person in particular is affiliated with another group. An affiliation being an "open secret" is entirely plausible and all it requires is continual acts of denial while continuing to pursue the interests of that affiliate (Angel or otherwise).
It's all a matter of perspective.
The issue here I think is when perceptions are also denied and attempts are made to prevent the construction of those opinions to what is preferred. There seem to be better methods to managing opinions and ways to turn them into an advantage and not a hindrance whilst also keeping things consistent aren't there?
There's also something odd about flaunting an Angel association and then telling people: Yeah but you don't know that. Sure, there might not be hard evidence but reputation can be everything at the end of the day.
But really, what then is the point of an association in the first place if it doesn't allow for outside interaction with others?
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I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination.
I'm sorry, my Backstage sig is now something that should be regarded as 'public IC knowledge' ?
It certainly leaves no doubts as to the affiliation you wish to portray for the character.
Perception is reality, mate. From what I see in this thread, it looks like the IC perception of a significant number of people is that your character is associated with the Cartel. If you don't like that, you should work on changing that perception rather than complaining about it and demanding other people ignore it. Could be a worthwhile progression to get him where you want him to be. vOv
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I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination.
I'm sorry, my Backstage sig is now something that should be regarded as 'public IC knowledge' ?
It certainly leaves no doubts as to the affiliation you wish to portray for the character.
Perception is reality, mate. From what I see in this thread, it looks like the IC perception of a significant number of people is that your character is associated with the Cartel. If you don't like that, you should work on changing that perception rather than complaining about it and demanding other people ignore it. Could be a worthwhile progression to get him where you want him to be. vOv
What I see is that a lot of IC clues - as it has been said since the beginning - obviously point to the cartel affiliation like for example Stillwater history as a cartel corp in the past added to Leo's flirting with a lot of angel corps, yes.
However, I also see a lot of OOC/IC confusion on the behalf of a lot of people.
IC perception is IC reality. OOC perception is OOC reality, which is quite different, but OOC perception (sigs, etc) is not IC reality imo.
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Again, if it was just one thing, or just one little hint thrown out there, that'd be one thing, but we're constantly reminded of angel this, angel that, whenever we examine the character, it is difficult to overcome that bias. Its not just one hint that Leo is an angel, you could probably dismiss one of the points in the way you have, but enough of those little points and all the handwaving in the world just doesn't matter. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, acts like a duck, and says its amarrian, that doesn't make it not a duck.
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I have been keeping my distance from the Summit and similar 'flash points' recently for reasons much smaller than this somewhat antagonizing back and forth, but here I am to throw my hat into the ring.
My personal stance on this, considering my IC interaction with Leo has been delivering a few fuel blocks and saying hello 'once' in the Summit pre-'ohgodwhyImmaout' (nothing to do with this snafu), in that I can't say either way on Stillwater simply because I don't even care ICly.
There is no solution to this, no one is going to be happy, few people will accept compromise and my thoughts are 'why does this even matter'? If you have some overweening need to 'punish leo for being an Angel' spread that dirt IC, or hire mercs/wardec or do something else that adds some schadenfreude to this whole exchange - atleast some of us get to cackle on the sidelines then. As for Stillwater thinking I may be advocating them in this case, I consider Stillwater's history to be more than enough to hold them in potential contempt due to prior and possible Angel ties, but this leads to the crux of the issue.
Angel or not, how many of us interact with Leo other than OOC? In this collossal pond is there no space where we can just throw up our hands and go 'Not in my Name' and just get on with our IC and OOC lives unaffected by extraneous 'annoyances'? Is it really worth stressing over an irreconcilable difference such as this unless you're going to put the impression of the other guy's scrote on your toe cap via in game mechanics?
Taking my hat out of the ring, but before I do, remember this - we have big enough problems with keeping this community together - why not work this out in game if at all?
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[mod]The subject of the discussion is not out of bounds in general, but of course posts must remain on-topic and conform to the rest of the rules. Keep it clean, folks. Thanks. :)[/mod]
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Thanks Cass.
Given this situation, it is quite logical to assume that people may accept Stillwater's involvement and allegiance to the Angel Cartel.
Accept, assume, yes. As long as it stays in the field of speculations, rumours, etc., you can speculate all you want.
So - just making sure I'm understanding your argument; correct me if I am wrong - what you are saying is that it is alright for people to assume Stillwater is a Cartel operation, but we are not allowed to produce IC material ("Proof") to back up our accusations?
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Unfortunately I've found if you want things to be a secret IC, you unfortunately can't tell anyone OOC either. It sucks but that's just the way it is. Once the genie is out of the bottle it can't go back.
Regardless of who-said-what-when-where and what is admissible in ic/ooc court, and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone or taking any sides in this, Stillwater is in a very shallow closet regarding their affiliation. Like Ellen Degeneris and Rosie O'donnel shallow closet :P And as far as Imperials are concerned, suspicion is 99% of guilt anyway.
I think I get that Leo wants to have fun and work on all of the fun Angel IC information and be able to share that with other people OOC, but its a very very difficult thing to do and not have it bleed over.
Anyway you guys should totally just come out of the closet anyway. Feels good to be open about inner IC stuffs and broaden the RP pool : )
I had a few months of 'seekrit' sabik stuff going on with all of like, 4 RPers and it got extremely tiresome trying to be Senator Palpatine / Darth Sidious which no one beleived anyway :P
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This sort of thing is a problem that's come up with other things too.
examples, people that use ooc communications, including these forums, and the OOC channel ingame, to say "look at my RP thing!", without providing any IC method to know those things.
Then getting bent out of shape, screaming "You don't know this!", and complaining endlessly about being "metagamed".
what this does is, turn people off from RP, and makes OOC channel a cesspool of bad rp.
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1. If you don't insulate OOC info *and* clearly mark it as OOC, you cannot expect of people to treat it info as inaccesible IC
2. People's minds aren't wired up to compartimentalize information, or to quote the classic 'what has been seen cannot be unseen'. If you do want to post IC stuff OOC, *don't do it with IC secret info*
If you ignore these two guidelines, don't be surprised when the inevitable happens and people respond to your intended OOC info IC.
Leopold is a confirmed crook as far as Merdaneth is concerned, and crooks run with crooks, so he really doesn't care if he's currently with Angels or otherwise.
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This may seem a bit heavyhanded, but honestly, why is this a problem at all?
I know there is enough IC data floating around to more then implicate Stillwater, in the hands of people who have posted in this thread talking about why it shouldn't be a secret. If you have that much of a problem with it. Then take that information and go to press with it. The reason this discussion is occurring at all is because the only information that people aren't holding close to their belts is the stuff of questionable availability.
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If it was only about corp titles, that's nothing really. If i were Leo I would just answer to people pointing at them and telling "WTF YOU HAVE ANGEL TITLES SO YOU ARE ANGEL !", "Yeah well, I could also put instead 'THE MAKER', and you would believe that I am the Maker ? You gullible fool". That would be pretty cool for a 'vilain' corporation to use such PR tricks. ^^
Still poor manners.
In Eve RP you assume people are what they say. If my profile lists I have two brothers and a sister, and my parents lived on Sarum Prime, there is no way that such can be proven or disproven. The underlying message of me sharing this info is: 'this is how I imagine my character to be, and I would like you to treat this info as real'
In EVE RP, assumption is, in most case, fact, because there are no real facts.
Posting secret OOC info in your bio or other easily publicly available stuff and than getting pissed off at people treating it as IC info is simply ignorance of how EVE RP tends to works. Since it appears to me that the player behind Leo is fairly intelligent, it seems willful ignorance too.
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Accept, assume, yes. As long as it stays in the field of speculations, rumours, etc., you can speculate all you want.
Once people start using OOC info as IC knowledge, or using OOC info as IC 'proof', that's where a line has to be drawn. And this is is the issue at the moment.
The info is now IC, whether you like it or not, because it has been spread in clearly IC channels. You can complain that people used OOC sources to make your secrets public, but that will only help my OOC understanding. Merdaneth heard the allegations. Merdaneth heard them from IC trustworthy people. You haven't made any points IC to defend yourself, so Merdaneth is treating the information as such. Better start a good PR campaign.
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This sort of thing is a problem that's come up with other things too.
examples, people that use ooc communications, including these forums, and the OOC channel ingame, to say "look at my RP thing!", without providing any IC method to know those things.
Then getting bent out of shape, screaming "You don't know this!", and complaining endlessly about being "metagamed".
what this does is, turn people off from RP, and makes OOC channel a cesspool of bad rp.
As Silas said it is always better to keep the secret IC stuff sikrit, but eventually I started to get more lenient on that and gave obvious hints OOC and even evidences, as well as more subtle hints IC on my character affiliation.
Never really had any issue. But that's precisely because IC clues were extremely limited and known to few people. That's precisely because people were OOCly always like "wtf" when learning that Lyn was not the proper liberal loyalist that I started to become more laxist OOCly with these things.
Then it is a question of balance, because if you start to repeat it again and again OOCly with a hammer, people eventually start to confuse it with IC eventually and behave like if they have always known about it.
Anyway here from what I understand IC clues are legion anyway.
If it was only about corp titles, that's nothing really. If i were Leo I would just answer to people pointing at them and telling "WTF YOU HAVE ANGEL TITLES SO YOU ARE ANGEL !", "Yeah well, I could also put instead 'THE MAKER', and you would believe that I am the Maker ? You gullible fool". That would be pretty cool for a 'vilain' corporation to use such PR tricks. ^^
Still poor manners.
In Eve RP you assume people are what they say. If my profile lists I have two brothers and a sister, and my parents lived on Sarum Prime, there is no way that such can be proven or disproven. The underlying message of me sharing this info is: 'this is how I imagine my character to be, and I would like you to treat this info as real'
In EVE RP, assumption is, in most case, fact, because there are no real facts.
Well, no wonder why this is such a problem then. I do not reason that way at all. Realistically, if something is a rumor, it remains a rumor for me, period. If you can't prove your theories about others (and not yourself) with facts, I would have started to put a serious doubt on the legitimacy of your claims.
If we reason like you do, then it is no surprise that if I start to spread the rumor that KotMC are sikrit blood raiders with a vampire fetish everyone believe it like the sheeps they are... ? Everyone it applies for Gutter Press too ? Everyone believes everything they say ? :eek:
Of course here, the matter is something else since there is a lot of IC evidence available, and even if it is not enough to tell "Stillwater IS angel", it is enough to say "Stillwater is obviously angel, everything screams it is !".
Posting secret OOC info in your bio or other easily publicly available stuff and than getting pissed off at people treating it as IC info is simply ignorance of how EVE RP tends to works.
Unfortunately yes.
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For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.
Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.
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Ishta Maleto informed Ava of the same thing, Ulphus.
Though, for what its worth, I dont really care. I must admit some puzzlement; Leopold is an Amarrian Holder (or so he says) who is also quite obviously a pirate (A glimpse at any combat history shows this) and who may or may not be affiliated with the Cartel.
I gotta think that all sorts of IC consequences, from the ire of other characters to inquisition from the MIO would be the result, here.
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I'm not sure what the big deal is anyhow; it's not like Stillwater can take action on behalf of the Cartel. I'm sure there are lots of organizations that try to emulate the Angels in various criminal enterprises, but if they're working alone they're just pirate-types with neat logos. Also, is Leo and his crew actually making an effort to keep things hidden?
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Well, no wonder why this is such a problem then. I do not reason that way at all. Realistically, if something is a rumor, it remains a rumor for me, period. If you can't prove your theories about others (and not yourself) with facts, I would have started to put a serious doubt on the legitimacy of your claims.
If we reason like you do, then it is no surprise that if I start to spread the rumor that KotMC are sikrit blood raiders with a vampire fetish everyone believe it like the sheeps they are... ? Everyone it applies for Gutter Press too ? Everyone believes everything they say ? :eek:
Of course here, the matter is something else since there is a lot of IC evidence available, and even if it is not enough to tell "Stillwater IS angel", it is enough to say "Stillwater is obviously angel, everything screams it is !".
There can be no differentiation between a rumor and a fact if there is no method to differentiate between the two.
Merdaneth might suddenly say he has never held slaves, that such were solely rumors spread by himself, and that nobody every verified if he held slaves. He can do that solely because there is no way to prove or disprove that claim.
There is no IC evidence available of Leopold Caine ever having contact with Angel NPCs simply because you *can't have contact* with Angel NPCs because, they are well, NPCs....
If Leopold spreads around info that he is affiliated with Angels we can either try to believe him and play with him, or call out: 'Hey, you say you are cooperating with Angels, well, prove it man!' That is what RP is about, because in 95% of the RP cases there is *no* factual evidence either way.
As an addendum: I'm often amazed at people that want to differentiate between a rumors and a fact in a *makebelieve world* when they can't even separate rumor from fact in the real world. A fact is simply information gained through sources you trust, contains information that fits into your view of the world and doesn't have sufficient contrary information.
This is no different in EVE. If Leopold Caine didn't have this image of being an Angel associate (through his bio and other sources) then anyone claiming that would simply be disbelieved. Might as well claim that Rodj Blake is a Matari terrorist. However, Leopold does have this image (partially created through what he thinks as OOC sources), so if someone claims his association as a fact, the rumor has greater odds to 'stick' as it were.
Can you give me the definition of what for you 'a fact' is IRL?
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For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.
Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.
Well, this sort of points back to my original argument Lyn.
People believe what other people tell them. In this case Ulphus believes a (to him) reputable source: the EM file. This file may or may not be correct, but Ulphus simply assumes it is correct.
Furthermore, they are believing Stillwater's words on the matter too. The likely assumed what Stillwater claims is correct, didn't do any research to verify the claim and noted it on file. Yeah, Stillwater might have been spreading false rumors. But then again, why should they? (this links to the reputable source and fitting with world view argument). If EM can find no obvious reason for Stillwater to specifically lie to them about this issue, they will assume it is the truth/fact. It is alll rumor though.
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I'm somewhat scratching my head over the notion that the in game bio & corp description are OOC information.
I can see an argument that the employment record could be taken less than literally for people that want characters with non-standard training. It's not as though you have any choice but to accept one of the standard pilot schools for your race after all.
However the bio & description are entirely player made & controlled. I've always considered stuff there to be IC, unless it is specifically marked as OOC.
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There can be no differentiation between a rumor and a fact if there is no method to differentiate between the two.
Merdaneth might suddenly say he has never held slaves, that such were solely rumors spread by himself, and that nobody every verified if he held slaves. He can do that solely because there is no way to prove or disprove that claim.
This is another matter. As I said above, this is about you in your example, and not about someone else. You can claim whatever you want about yourself, and I have never denied that everybody will probably believe you if you say so since as you say, there is no way to confirm it or not.
It is another story with someone else.
There is no IC evidence available of Leopold Caine ever having contact with Angel NPCs simply because you *can't have contact* with Angel NPCs because, they are well, NPCs....
If Leopold spreads around info that he is affiliated with Angels we can either try to believe him and play with him, or call out: 'Hey, you say you are cooperating with Angels, well, prove it man!' That is what RP is about, because in 95% of the RP cases there is *no* factual evidence either way.
Exactly, and here Leopold is not claiming he is working for angels, but actually denying it ICly, which is the contrary. People are pointing at him that there are a lot of IC clues showing his cartel affiliations, which is probably true.
And thus why I have agreed since the beginning with the statement :
This is no different in EVE. If Leopold Caine didn't have this image of being an Angel associate (through his bio and other sources) then anyone claiming that would simply be disbelieved. Might as well claim that Rodj Blake is a Matari terrorist. However, Leopold does have this image (partially created through what he thinks as OOC sources), so if someone claims his association as a fact, the rumor has greater odds to 'stick' as it were.
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As an addendum: I'm often amazed at people that want to differentiate between a rumors and a fact in a *makebelieve world* when they can't even separate rumor from fact in the real world. A fact is simply information gained through sources you trust, contains information that fits into your view of the world and doesn't have sufficient contrary information.
Heh, then it is maybe better to convince other people of that then. I mostly agree here.
Can you give me the definition of what for you 'a fact' is IRL?
Mostly the same as yours and generally something that has not been proven wrong (yet) based on evidences. Usually it is something that's can't really be denied :
"Water boils at 100°C"
"12 deaths and 8 injured in the last bombing incident"
"Corp description says 'angel affiliated'"
etc
A fact can then be used subjectively : "The old Stillwater leadership claimed to be angels, Leopold was in an angel corp before too, so it is highly probably that he is angel and stillwater too".
However, the deduction is not logical, it is a guess, nothing more, and that has been my point since the beginning, no matter how high or low is the probability of the guess in itself (here probably quite high).
Addendum : So again, I have no issue at all with people believing he is angel. It is quite logical for most characters to believe so. My own character has always been suspicious and eventually thought "Stillwater probably is angel", though at the beginning she was not really sure and I had also to ask myself OOCly what she knew about that herself since me, the player, knew a lot more about the angel affiliation and had to make clear what were the clues at her disposal. However she would never have stated that it was the case since it is not a fact for her. It remains a guess with a high probability.
My problem is with arguments using OOC to prove something IC. I don't care how true is the fact that the more you repeat to people OOCly that you like angels and all, the more their character will tend to believe it without any IC basis, it remains basically wrong since it's still based on OOC. Here of course, there was also an issue of missing OOC tags and the likes, which added to the confusion a lot.
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Yeah, I basically agree with Lyn here, who puts it way more intelligently then I believe I would be able to.
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I think another issues here is that some people believe 'Stillwater have openly flagged themselves as Angels', whereas this was never the case and was spread around as a rumour.
Not to mention some people, nomina odiosa sunt, made certain things up based on their OOC perception of Stillwater, then spread them around without even bothering to ask for anyone's concent, to the point of openly claiming they have my OOC consent on that matter.
I'm not trying to add any oil to the fire. My point is simply that the whole 'Stillwater is obviously angel' rumour never came from IC sources, instead it was an OOC thing that festered over the time. Leo has never publically announced he's an angel, and the corp has a set in stone modus operandi about dealing with strangers asking too many questions. This is one of the reasons Stillwater never decided to blue Naraka; Naraka's straightforward 'oh, of course we are angels' made them seem lacking professionalism.
So, if you can backtrack that rumour that Stillwater are angels to any proper evidence, proof or anything in that regard, I'd be rather grateful. I remember Leo trolling the Summit about a year or so ago and saying 'Angels are never far.' in the context of a discussion in the Summit. If anyone remembers any other time he has said anything else in an effort to obviously present himself as an angel, please rectify me.
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To put it bluntly Leo, as an ex-member of Stillwater (when it started long, long ago), there were no "set in stone" modus operandi. If there were, someone clearly forgot to point it out to me. It might have helped. ;)
So, as an ex-member, and knowing that Stillwater was intended as a "legitimate face" to Cartel/Thukker operations at the time, I'd say for some people it goes beyond "rumor".
Personally, I don't deal with Stillwater anymore aside from sparse IC interactions with members in The Summit. Probably never will again, just because this whole fiasco just hurts my brain and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when someone brings it up in The Summit. It doesn't bother me one bit whether Stillwater is or isn't Cartel. But when someone flat out tells me that I'm wrong, that my perception of a situation was not true, it kind of pisses me off. No offense, it's just who I am and how my brain's wired. I can also see how this could piss other people off, and I try not to get in the middle of this kind of cluster****.
On both sides, I'd say take a step back and look at it objectively. Leo's made an effort to explain his position, and has made minor attempts to improve that interaction by including OOC markers in Stillwater's corp description. At this point, it's out in the open, and Leo is perfectly within his rights to claim it is a rumor. Conversely, since Leo has responded IC, there is a potential for this to actually enhance RP on both sides. Stillwater trying to put up a respectable face, others looking for damning evidence, etc.
If others consciously choose to ignore this, then it's not Leo's fault.
Now, an old post that (as an ex-member) should be easy to dissect for information:
http://nikiruu.blogspot.com/2009/04/personal-log-entry-003-fallout.html
Since I play the character who's blog this is from, I say it's fair game. It's been stated, many times (by my character (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1918467#post1918467)) that this information is available if the proper search methods are used. I think both sides could use it as ample ammunition, without giving either side a decisive "smoking gun". :twisted:
Instead of seeing this as immersion breaking, why not look at it as an opportunity for civilized immersioneering*? Find an interaction point and pursue it. Pissing contests in The Summit and IGS pretty much turn into he said/she said situations. Neither side's going to "win" the argument, and point scoring is pretty much pointless. So, find the evidence, put the case forward, and start locking and loading.
*yes, I totally just made that word up.
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My point is simply that the whole 'Stillwater is obviously angel' rumour never came from IC sources, instead it was an OOC thing that festered over the time.
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So, if you can backtrack that rumour that Stillwater are angels to any proper evidence, proof or anything in that regard, I'd be rather grateful.
Bold by me.
For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.
Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.
EM diplomacy happens IC, at least, when we ask the question we're being IC. If when someone answered they weren't being IC, then it's hardly our fault, and I think it's reasonable for us to treat whatever answer we get as IC as far as possible.
There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.
IC enough for you?
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For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.
Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.
EM diplomacy happens IC, at least, when we ask the question we're being IC. If when someone answered they weren't being IC, then it's hardly our fault, and I think it's reasonable for us to treat whatever answer we get as IC as far as possible.
There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.
IC enough for you?
As much as I'll admit I don't remember exact events of something that happened 2 years ago, I certainly don't remember being contacted by EM at any point. If this is something you have done in private with some other director at that time, would you be kind enough to send me this document/logs OOCly?
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As much as I'll admit I don't remember exact events of something that happened 2 years ago, I certainly don't remember being contacted by EM at any point. If this is something you have done in private with some other director at that time, would you be kind enough to send me this document/logs OOCly?
I'll ask the person who was the diplomat handling it, but there's no guarantee they kept their mail once they stepped down as diplomat (or that any logs survived any PC upgrade in the intervening time)
The most likely point of contact would have been whoever was listed as diplomat for Stillwater at the time, and I don't think the records specify that.
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Well thank you for your efforts, if you manage to find it please do mail it over... however...
There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.
So, if this file is not around as you just said, where did they read it?
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Well thank you for your efforts, if you manage to find it please do mail it over... however...
There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.
So, if this file is not around as you just said, where did they read it?
The file is in our intel forum, just like everyone else's file. The particular comment that one of our diplomats had chatted with the Stillwater rep who'd quite openly said they were Angels and we should set them as we felt appropriate was a summary of discussion rather than--as is our usual practice these days--a transcript of the contact.
I note that Mata hung out with the Stillwater people for a time when she was making contact with everyone with a Thukker flavour she could find. The Angel connection did not come up at that time.
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Long story short we've got a lot of 'urdoingitwrong' aimed at Leo.
You guys can play along with Stillwater and accept their preferred IC version of things and that they aren't outed Cartel members, or you can not. If you choose not to, consider what your IC evidence is, and weather this is an OOC spite move to piss them off or give them more 'urdoingitwrong'
It's a big galaxy out there and plenty of room for people to never run into each other if you decide not to.
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I feel I've been caught up in a discussion that has some other motive force behind it, simply through wanting to talk about the facts of the case as visible to people in my alliance. I don't particularly know Leo beyond the occasional exchange in OOC. My notes here are nothing to do with Leo except as far as responding to a question he asked.
One of the Stillwater contacts responded to a diplomatic query about RoE and affiliations with more information than Leo would apparently have preferred. It happens. The information has been available IC within EM since January 2011 and has informed our standings.
How far that travels beyond people who have access to and interest in EM diplomacy files is another matter altogether. Apparently it's not something Stillwater likes talking about now, or maybe they've even changed. Please don't tell us, though, that we can't have a well-justified belief about something we do "know" legitimately.
That's even without the corporate write-up, which we treat as IC and which is one of the standard starting points for working up a file on a group. How else would you do it?
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Just going to add my two isk here.
I can understand where Leo is coming from with all of this. I, as a player, know that Leo is pretty much the "go to guy" for finding an Angel Cartel member. There is plenty of OOC information and it's been OOCly asked and OOCly confirmed numerous times that I've personally seen. Now, as a character Uraniae doesn't specifically know if he, or Stillwater, happen to be Angel affiliated. I've never really looked into it as Uraniae doesn't really care. Of course Uraniae does have suspicions about Cartel affiliation, and I have to say I do consider most Bio and Corp Description windows to be ICly searchable information. Note that I say "most" specifically. I'm sure everyone can easily think of character bios and corp descriptions that would be clearly OOC info (NPC damage tables, ascii art) as well as corp titles. It's a flexible source if you ask me. If Leo is saying it is OOC information I have to respect that, but at the same time (if Ura cared about the Cartel at all) I'd be the first to call him or any other Stillwater member on it if they used those same titles as IC honorifics.
Also, a few pages back Ken made a good point about perception dictating reality in situations like this. Regardless of if it is correct factually or morally or ICly, people do seem to be finding other IC information that hints at Angel ties. I'm not privy to any of it really, but there is something that needs to be pointed out here. Just what constitutes "proof" and how much of it is needed to justify action is something that is going to vary from person to person.
All that said, and I hope I'm not derailing by asking this, but...
Out of curiosity where does this leave Uraniae with the little hints of her own affiliations and beliefs? What information do people have to frame their stance regarding her, and how much of it is IC versus OOC? I'll be genuinely surprised if anyone can make a good argument for Uraniae being this or that faction.
Again I'm not trying to derail things but I think this is a similar sort of situation and it might be good for people to step away from this particular situation and look at a similar one. There is a chance a separate but similar situation might provide some clearer objectivity if people really are blurring the line between IC and OOC knowledge.
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Makkal remains blissfully ignorant of Stillwater's Angel connections. Her old IC source of knowledge regarding those connections also claims that the Empress does drugs and has orgies. Obviously, not trustworthy.
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Hmm. Maybe there's something interesting here: as an immersive roleplayer I read things like damage tables as IC. We're pilots, and this is one of the reference tools we use. ASCII art is generally IC unless it's of some real-world flag or similar, although even then that gives information which we might ICerize (these are the people who require translator add-ons, for instance; but "they like to give the cluster the middle finger" is totally IC).
CONCORD gives us a free home page. People do with that what people do with that.
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For me, some bios are IC documents made by official sources, some are capsuleer made 'homepages,' and others are a summery of easily available IC infos. I try to guess which is which and what part is OOC based on the layout.
They're not standardized so I don't have the same expectations for each one.
I've made mistakes. I recall Makkal commenting on a certain poem about Amarrian women being unsatisfied with their partner's manhoods and being told that was actually an OOC joke.
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For me, it's got more to do with the fact that Tib has not liked Leopold IC for a year because Tib heard Leopold was an Angel. All of the corporate information, which I consider IC because it is accessable in game even without using things that are, apparently, tricky such as the In Game Browser, says he is an Angel. I am not being asked to go back and reverse an entire year of in-game reaction because Leopold, OOC, suddenly wants to retcon that no body knows he is an angel.
I laugh at that suggestion, frankly, and I'm not even interested in handling it particularly diplomatically after it was phrased to me as an order of all things.
Other things I consider myself able to know ICly just through the game interface.
-Your characters name
-What ships your characters fly if I see them in space or can make reasonable suppositions about it based off information on D-scan.
-Where you are when I run a locator agent on you
-Any chat in local, or most other channels unless they are specifically marked as being OOC.
Things I consider OOC information.
-Blog posts that are marked as being OOC.
-Things said only in an OOC channel.
-Mistakes that are QUICKLY retconned so that pretending I didnt see it is not a huge pain in the ass.
That's everything. Yes, Leopold, I even consider lolcats to be IC, if you show me one in an IC context. My character will just think yours is weird.
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The main issue here is that all these IC assumptions seem to come either from IC gathered facts (for example, EM files or the old Stillwater) and from OOC/IC confusions (like when after repeating the word ANGEL everyday on the OOC channel people start to take it as if their characters have always known that).
Anyway, even if I am not sure if Leo really wants people to retcon that fact, I do not see the situation broken beyond any hope. Let's just see what premise we have :
Old Stillwater was obviously angel or not hiding their affiliation. Other IC clues filtered out like with the EM files, etc. Leo was in Naraka before too iirc ?
1) What do we learn of that ? There is a high probability that Leo is still angel, and Stillwater too. It is up to him/them to prove it is not the case anymore.
2) Does that mean that they still are Angel ? No, period.
3) What does it implies if some characters still strongly believe it is the case and state it as a known fact ? They believe what they want, and let them believe it. Do you usually believe and trust a turnclaok completely ? No, there is a certain amount of time before trusting him. Here it is the same more or less, even if Stillwater and Leo have really changed, people will need time to believe it (even if OOCly we know they still havent changed their affiliations).
4) What kind of counter arguments can Leo/Stillwater's supporter find ? Well, rational thinking, I think, to begin with. "What makes you think that Stillwater is still Angel since the change of directors even if we clearly stated we are not (then link the relevant PR piece of info) ? What makes you think Leo is still Angel ? Never heard of capsuleers changing loyalties ?" It is expected for a lot of people not to believe it as per 3), but it also asks them to bring proofs that what you say here is false, and they just can't (unless I have missed some clear evidence somewhere). The very moment they will prove unable to bring proofs instead of slander, they are screwed rhetorically (make sure to use the word slander then).
5) What makes it interesting ? We have a corporation with affiliations that are more or less screaming angel for the public opinion, but nobody can really prove anything. It reminds me the mafia on some points. Everyone knows that guy is the Godfather, or that place is infiltrated by mafia guys, but nobody can do anything because they lack proofs.
That's mostly how I see it.
Also, my advice for Stillwater : find a good affiliation for your "public face". Build and be prolific around that "public face", be it amarrian holdings, or whatever.
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I actually just thought of a really good way around this for Leopold, it involves a few steps. It wont make people stop accusing him of being an Angel, but it certaintly provides plausible deniability. Best of all, it entirely revolves around things he can do, and actually involves some cool RP shenanigans.
1) Remove ALL references to the Angel Cartel from any sources that are even potentially IC. This means bios, corp info, moving the headquarters if thats possible (that might even be easier to do since as far as I know you guys fly around Akilia). Stop members from naming ships using Gist naming conventions.
2) Publically admit that Leopold was an Angel. This explains the fact that Naraka and Stillwater are or were both Angel corps. Accept some sort of IC punishment, lessened by his influence, either legitimate or non. Perhaps Leopold loses his holdership, but gets to name his successor so installs a puppet, or even some actual character. Announce that for the past, say, year, you have been trying to divest yourself of ties to the Cartel, and have only just fully succeeded.
3) Continue being an Angel despite all that, only now with plausible deniability in place, and the facade of a 'legitimate businessman'. People will still call you an Angel. You can shrug and go "I was, but I got out. Now I am legitimate". People tell noobs not to believe you. You tell them those people are liars with a grudge. Except now you actually have a leg to stand on.
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Or on 2) he can also claim like the proper vilain he is that he got abused by angels in the past and is going to atone in the eyes of God and be a nice little loyal Holder to his/her majesty.
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Nah, that would make him seem weak which is a death sentence in both the Empire and the Cartel.
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27)
Or you could accept what someone labels as IC/OOC since everyone has slightly different opinions what is IC by default and what not. See killboards, for example. Some consider it to be IC, some don't.
Also, my advice for Stillwater : find a good affiliation for your "public face". Build and be prolific around that "public face", be it amarrian holdings, or whatever.
Imho, the best advice. Create some stories/background about the public face and keep some buzz alive from time to time (IGS or something like ANN?), then do your shady dealings in the, well, shade.
But
a)haters gonna hate.
b) The aforementioned OOC knowledge that they're angels will always bleed through into IC judgements. Mostly human, I guess.
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Would do, but that information wasn't labelled as OOC when I got it, and one years worth of RP even tangentially related to Stillwater has been made with the knowledge gained from that information.
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One year worth of knowing that he called himself domination something? That's certainly a heavy impact and I can easily see where it ruins ones experience.
No, seriously, personally I don't think it's such a huge deal to simply go ahead on the current status quo - present suspicion and "knowledge" won't change a bit. As said by others before, we often 'know' things that aren't entirely the factual reality to an omniscient ( in this case an OOC ) observer.
So vOv.
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I think Desi has the right idea there.
So, the story continues. Be suspicious all you want, but stop throwing made up 'proof' and 'evidence' into people's faces.
Especially the person who seems to get off at convincing our new members to leave the corp. Since recently I witnessed a third time he has tried this, please stop throwing OOC made up stuff into people's faces and claiming it's all IC.
...
...
And there we go. Problem solved.
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Except it really, really isn't because you are still claiming that information that is IC is not IC, and demanding that the rest of us retcon our characters to fit with your version of how you would like reality to go. I've presented you with a solution that, best of all, relies entirely on your own actions, and it would stop this AND provide good RP at the same time. If not that, then something similar in terms of goals would work.
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Nah, that would make him seem weak which is a death sentence in both the Empire and the Cartel.
Mh yes, true.
Except it really, really isn't because you are still claiming that information that is IC is not IC, and demanding that the rest of us retcon our characters to fit with your version of how you would like reality to go. I've presented you with a solution that, best of all, relies entirely on your own actions, and it would stop this AND provide good RP at the same time. If not that, then something similar in terms of goals would work.
I think you are trying to see disagreements where there are none actually...
I too have offered the same solution and as far as I can read nobody has denied either yours or mine.
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Tiberious, I asked you to retcon a single IGS post because you made a comment regarding my corp's killboard banner. (or maybe forums banner).
Don't blow things out of proportions.
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You asked me to retcon a single post that dealt with things that are considered IC by me, concerning your corporations public information, along with specifically stating that I "don't know that".
The reason I am pushing so hard on this is because it sets two precidents that I consider important. 1) Information sources that I believe should be reasonably considered IC will no longer be reasonably considered IC, and 2) It becomes okay to EVER tell another player to retcon their characters.
These are two things which I very strongly believe to be bad positions, and so I will fight tooth and nail to prevent them from becoming the norm.
Ive presented you with a way around both of these. What do you think of it?
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I didn't to ask you to retcon anything about your character. You simply used OOC intel to make an IC post. I pointed that out to you, you suddenly went haywire about me disrupting your freedom and whatnot.
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Why are mommy and daddy fighting? *cries*
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I didnt use any information I consider OOC. You retroactively declared it OOC information after it was used.
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And now I am withdrawing from this because Im not going to change my mind, and neither are you. Fly safe, o7o7m8m8
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Pity.
Oh well, have fun.
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Well obviously you all shooting each other in game will solve these ooc issue. Carry on
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Sarcasm aside i support all RP shooting senarios, fodder for much glorious scheming and IGS threadnaughts. Commence bombardment!
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This might be another immersive roleplayer thing, but killboards are IC. There are few things in EVE that are more certain than an API-verified record of who lost what to whom. They're among the tools we use to work out how active people are currently, where they're active, and what sorts of targets they prefer, which all in turn goes to affect diplomacy and decisions.
(Other people's kllboard comments might sometimes need some squinting to ICerize.)
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Kills, without any OOC remarks to them in the comments Are IC, but they're the pointy end of the scenario stick. Some of them might have reasonable stories behind them, some of them might not.
All you have behind them is the assumption and your own will to build about them to make it work. In the RPsense I mean.
What I'm saying is, Leo atm has some 1400 capsuleer kills more or less according to battleclinic; this doesn't instantaneously make him a murderer. Archangels hunt for profit, Dominations hunt for sport, and if approached about it he'll just say they were tresspassing into his domain and thus were shut down; another reason why MIO doesn't deal into Leo's combat history and DED just nods and lowers his security status whatever he has to say.
'Really gentlemen, is this really necessary?' Is the usual retort though.
Leo shot down Uraniae once, but he never put any angel, criminal or similar undertone to it. He later briefy explained her she was poaching in his hunting grounds without permission, for this occassion. I'm glad she had enough professionalism to disregard that and played along without going 'OMG STILLWATER ARE ANGEL PIRATHZ' So I have to give Uraniae a +1 for keeping that professionalism intact.
Again, sorry about your ship Ura, we're kinda good at what we do and we do ain't nice :3
My point is, even though killboards aren't ICly as fuck, Stillwater's OOC and IC is as interwined as possible and kills are a part of those. If there's a specific kill one wishes to extract, Leo will probably not shrug it away, but offer some sort of a half assed explanation behind it. Whether you want to believe it or not, is up to your character. However, the idea of battleclinic or eve-kill.net being IC... like, the whole of it...
That's just absurd.
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PVP kills are completely IC, it's just up to us how to explain or interpret them.
It's one of the very, very few RP things that are indisputable. You exploded, I did not, etc.
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This might be another immersive roleplayer thing, but killboards are IC. There are few things in EVE that are more certain than an API-verified record of who lost what to whom. They're among the tools we use to work out how active people are currently, where they're active, and what sorts of targets they prefer, which all in turn goes to affect diplomacy and decisions.
Incidentally, how do you RP API-verified. Because I believe the OOC security gives the API its IC reliability. I wouldn't trust an organization like Concord too accurately record data (even if I would understand IC how they would be able to do it, which I don't), would you?
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PVP kills are completely IC, it's just up to us how to explain or interpret them.
It's one of the very, very few RP things that are indisputable. You exploded, I did not, etc.
They are very disputable. And before they whole (OOC security) of the API thing, they were disputed, false kills were posted etc.
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kills, not killboards, but you get my drift.
Posting fake kills to killboards was a big no no, I don't recall this being an issue with RP conflicts?
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kills, not killboards, but you get my drift.
Posting fake kills to killboards was a big no no, I don't recall this being an issue with RP conflicts?
Heh, I posted fake killmails occasionally back before everything was API backed. It was a great tool to manipulate and control corporate warfare.
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kills, not killboards, but you get my drift.
Posting fake kills to killboards was a big no no, I don't recall this being an issue with RP conflicts?
Heh, I posted fake killmails occasionally back before everything was API backed. It was a great tool to manipulate and control corporate warfare.
There were some 'friendly fire' PIE mails that were never posted to the KB too, before the API. I'm sure those kills would be hotly denied even though they happened. In fact, because there was the API they only happened to the witnessing parties and have not spread beyond that IC as far as I know.
Look at real wars. Kills are still hotly disputed despite modern intelligence tools precisely because they are good propaganda tools. The API has killed that.
If I want to hide a kill from my superiors nowadays, can I? Can I say: hey, those KB's are OOC stuff, I should be able to hide something from the directors, right? Kills may be IC, I can see an argument could be made that KB records aren't IC.
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This might be another immersive roleplayer thing, but killboards are IC. There are few things in EVE that are more certain than an API-verified record of who lost what to whom. They're among the tools we use to work out how active people are currently, where they're active, and what sorts of targets they prefer, which all in turn goes to affect diplomacy and decisions.
Incidentally, how do you RP API-verified. Because I believe the OOC security gives the API its IC reliability. I wouldn't trust an organization like Concord too accurately record data (even if I would understand IC how they would be able to do it, which I don't), would you?
The CONCORD that controls the comms system, pays bounties, and automatically manages sec status and standings? (And is occasionally quite silly in novels?) Yeah, actually, I trust "enough" that it records things accurately. There might be the occasional bugs and glitches as there are in any large software system, but CONCORD's records seem on the whole to be good.
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I did actually give our more-active pilots a choice about whether to go with the automatic CONCORD API pull. They embraced it. There have been occasions when I've wondered if a couple of them have rued that.
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[ 2013.02.21 18:20:25 ] Leopold Caine > "I am the Domination Malakim of Fua, and you and your henchmen can go **** themselves."
Is this the big reveal? Can we use this?
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[ 2013.02.21 18:20:25 ] Leopold Caine > "I am the Domination Malakim of Fua, and you and your henchmen can go **** themselves."
Is this the big reveal? Can we use this?
It's not a question to him if you can use it or not. If he pretty much admitted it IC it's fair game. Using it or not is now up to you and everyone else to figure out.
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Actually, it was posted on the IGS, so it can be used as it was posted ICly.
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It could also be a way to frame him with made up records.
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Having actually been there for the conversation, it's not made up. He did say it.
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I was speaking from a purely IC perspective.
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Actually, it was posted on the IGS, so it can be used as it was posted ICly.
This. The IGS is an explicitly in-character environment, and while CCP is a little wibbly at times on stuff like killmails, chatlogs and evemails being posted there, it was still posted there, which makes it available IC to anyone who reads the IGS.
That doesn't even go into Chribba's lovely forum archiver, which includes original pre-edit versions of posts and things that the CRC supposedly didn't like.
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Yeah, surely it could be a forged registry, but it'd be ICly forged so it would still be usable in-game, even if someone tried to prove it wrong.
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Fact#1: Secrets are fun!
Fact#2: Secrets are difficult to keep hidden!
I have had an interesting RP history with you, Leo. So what I say is meant as positive advice:
I can understand the appeal in the concept of Stillwater. Having an apparently legitimate business that pays it's taxes, offers respect to the clergy, attends charity event to keep a friendly face to the public, plans business meetings with your peers; both friends and competitors...
All the while there is a shadow side to it. Dark deals are made hidden from the public eye, and your thugs make nasty things happen that make your operation that much smoother. When your competitor meets his brutal end you sob in front of the cameras and offer your condoleances to his family right before you devour what remains of his disintegrating business empire.
Sounds like a ton of fun!
But... just as in IRL, a secret only survives if you hide it very carefully. If you start keeping a secret you must be prepared that it might come to the light eventually. When that time comes you must either have a plan for damage control, or just go with it and admit your true loyalties.
Even without looking at public profiles and forum sigs;
In-character by now many players have seen Leopold say things, do things, act in certain ways that incriminate him. These could be bystanders, participants, victims, former employees... anyone! After this happens the secret will no longer be ironclad and people will start whispering. Enough whispers will create a rumor. Given enough time and no satisfactory counter, the rumor will be accepted as "truth". This has now gone on for so long that not a lot of people, or at least that I interact with RP-wise, have any doubt left that Leo and Stillwater are Cartel affiliated.
Whatever damage was done by IC interactions cannot be reversed (and they shouldn't). However, if you insist on maintaining the legitimate businessman routine I would:
1. Change your public profile, and that of the corp to make it look completely legit. I agree that putting things between brackets looks stupid. Sadly most people (including me) disagree that the public profiles are OOC information, and that isn't going to change any time soon. That doesn't mean that you can't tell your story at all. Instead I would put a link at the bottom of the profiles that directs to a wiki-article on the Evelopedia where you explain about the Angel Cartel Affiliation. That way only those with the required attention span to appreciate intrigue will read about it, and the rest is none the wiser.
2. Be more discreet in player interactions and avoid making Leopold getting his own hands dirty as often. Being a crimelord involves using mediators and henchmen outside your corporation so that they can take the blame "they were mercenaries acting against their contract".. etc.
I hope that this made sense :P