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Author Topic: What is "god-modding"  (Read 7879 times)

Silas Vitalia

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #15 on: 22 Sep 2013, 19:40 »

I disagree with Esna on the ship crew question.

In my opinion if your boat gets violenced and your boat has crew, they are at the mercy of whomever is there to pick them up after the end.  You can play numbers with %s and survivor protocol, but if you say, have a battleship blown up from under you the odds are the people who killed you are gonna do what they please with escape pods, etc. 

If they didn't hold the field then maybe not.  IF they made you run away and are there to scavenge for survivors, then I feel the in space victory gives them pretty much carte blanche with the survivors. 

Communication is key, though.

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Repentence Tyrathlion

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #16 on: 23 Sep 2013, 02:56 »

I disagree with Esna on the ship crew question.

In my opinion if your boat gets violenced and your boat has crew, they are at the mercy of whomever is there to pick them up after the end.  You can play numbers with %s and survivor protocol, but if you say, have a battleship blown up from under you the odds are the people who killed you are gonna do what they please with escape pods, etc. 

If they didn't hold the field then maybe not.  IF they made you run away and are there to scavenge for survivors, then I feel the in space victory gives them pretty much carte blanche with the survivors. 

Communication is key, though.

Back in my Ghost Festival days, a few of us got into a habit of putting some disposable bit of cargo in our ships (Mortis used some kind of datachip, Inara used slaves or elite slaves).  Then, when said ship was blown up, the fate of said cargo piece gave us an RNG factor to bounce off of in terms of survivors, reactions to the loss, etc.
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Arista Shahni

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #17 on: 23 Sep 2013, 05:27 »

Yeh, there's the "and your boat has crew".

Where is the crew?

Not on your canon overview or in that canon wreck...

..someone dump coffee on me..
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Saede Riordan

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #18 on: 24 Sep 2013, 06:53 »

I disagree with Esna on the ship crew question.

In my opinion if your boat gets violenced and your boat has crew, they are at the mercy of whomever is there to pick them up after the end.  You can play numbers with %s and survivor protocol, but if you say, have a battleship blown up from under you the odds are the people who killed you are gonna do what they please with escape pods, etc. 

If they didn't hold the field then maybe not.  IF they made you run away and are there to scavenge for survivors, then I feel the in space victory gives them pretty much carte blanche with the survivors. 

Communication is key, though.

Back in my Ghost Festival days, a few of us got into a habit of putting some disposable bit of cargo in our ships (Mortis used some kind of datachip, Inara used slaves or elite slaves).  Then, when said ship was blown up, the fate of said cargo piece gave us an RNG factor to bounce off of in terms of survivors, reactions to the loss, etc.

I've been trying to get in the habit of doing this, cause I agree it makes for a good bellweather.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #19 on: 24 Sep 2013, 11:53 »

Silas - here's the issue with absolute control on the part of the victor.

Gurista: "Ha-hah! I have picked up some of your ship's escape pods, heathen scum! Even now your crew convert to our freelancer cause and will soon be fighting against your decay-ridden state!"
Caldari: "I highly doubt that; every man aboard that ship was selected for his loyalty and duty to the cause of the State!"
Gurista: "Well let me present something to back up my point..." *Presents a captured crew guy freely extolling the Guristas.*
Caldari: [[ Dude they're not going to, I know who I put in my crew. ]]
Gurista: [[ Rabble! ]]
Caldari: [[ Rabble rabble! ]]

Or, conversely,

Minmatar McSlaversbane: On recovery of the tyrant's crew from the wreckage of Amarr Von Priestman's ship, all non-slave crew have been executed for the crimes of... *Shows list of crimes.*
Amarr Von Priestman: Um, I actually just picked up that crew, so they couldn't have been doing all that stuff. They're just a bunch of mercs looking to make some fast money... I mean, most of them weren't even Amarr; I think there were like... five or six Amarr among the crew? Did you even ask them? Even look at them?
Minmatar Mcslaversbane: No! They were all evil terrible people!
Amarr Von Priestman: Whatever. Let me show you their pay logs, medical entries, recruitment interviews (etc etc)
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Anslol

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #20 on: 24 Sep 2013, 11:58 »

^Or people can just flat-out say 'no.'
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #21 on: 24 Sep 2013, 12:10 »

Yeh, there's the "and your boat has crew".

Where is the crew?

Not on your canon overview or in that canon wreck...

..someone dump coffee on me..

Maybe right behind the captain's quarters door that has been bolted shut for a few years?

Ship crew exist, many die in wrecks, many survive.  It is entirely reasonable they are subject to rescue (or capture) depending on who holds the field after a fight.

There's all -sorts- of things happening we don't see via the game interfase.

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Silas Vitalia

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #22 on: 24 Sep 2013, 12:12 »

Esna I think some of your examples go into God modding territory, I'm speaking about actions being done -to- the crew, not making up actions -for- the crew.

Example A:  Your crew survivors have been captured and are now languishing in the dungeon performing manual labor assembling Quafe cans

Example B:  Your crew have all been converted to mouth-frothing blood raider loyalists


Example A perfectly reasonable

Example B attempts to overlap the RP decisions you'd make about your own crew and what they would and wouldn't do

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Lyn Farel

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #23 on: 24 Sep 2013, 13:47 »

Example A still attempts to overlap the RP decisions you'd make about your own crew and what they would do and not do imo. Maybe more reasonable, but it still implies that the crew you captured did it willingly. They could perfectly suicide themselves or whatever. Maybe that's not reasonable as an excuse, but that's a possibility.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #24 on: 24 Sep 2013, 14:16 »

I think my point is that when you lose in an objective way, say by having your ship blown up, you should ALSO lose on the RP front.   It's a karma thing. 

You beat me in space, you get free RP points against me, sort of thing.   It's one of the only objective means of 'beating' other people we have in this game, hence my being in favor of some light consequences.

For me this is just more of an attitude of people who never, ever, want to lose at anything. 

So IMO if you don't want some of your ship crew ever in the hands of your enemies, don't get your ship blown up. 

Of course there are exceptions, maybe one of your particularly stoic and veteran officer crew all Seppuku before the boarding parties reach them.  This would be a special thing.  Maybe the special snowflake crewmembers.  But all the time, every time you lose a ship? Nah.

I practice what I preach by the way.







« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2013, 14:20 by Silas Vitalia »
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #25 on: 24 Sep 2013, 15:33 »

I think shooting someone is only insofar an 'objective' way of beating someone as both parties play the game for shooting people. I think that PvP-people often commit the fallacy of seeing winning in ship combat as being a more objective 'win' than e.g. ruining somones market position, simply because Shooting People is their objective and they do generalize this as the objective. But if someone plays the game for other objectives, you really didn't 'beat' him or her objectively if you shot him or her, but that didn't also stopor hinder him in achieving his objective.

I really don't think that there is something like 'objectively  winning' in EVE.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #26 on: 24 Sep 2013, 16:14 »

I think my point is that when you lose in an objective way, say by having your ship blown up, you should ALSO lose on the RP front.   It's a karma thing. 

You beat me in space, you get free RP points against me, sort of thing.   It's one of the only objective means of 'beating' other people we have in this game, hence my being in favor of some light consequences.

For me this is just more of an attitude of people who never, ever, want to lose at anything. 

So IMO if you don't want some of your ship crew ever in the hands of your enemies, don't get your ship blown up. 

Of course there are exceptions, maybe one of your particularly stoic and veteran officer crew all Seppuku before the boarding parties reach them.  This would be a special thing.  Maybe the special snowflake crewmembers.  But all the time, every time you lose a ship? Nah.

I practice what I preach by the way.

I don't disagree with that. It's always better to ask, though. At least once, after which one it's more or less a matter of habits.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #27 on: 24 Sep 2013, 17:05 »

I think shooting someone is only insofar an 'objective' way of beating someone as both parties play the game for shooting people. I think that PvP-people often commit the fallacy of seeing winning in ship combat as being a more objective 'win' than e.g. ruining somones market position, simply because Shooting People is their objective and they do generalize this as the objective. But if someone plays the game for other objectives, you really didn't 'beat' him or her objectively if you shot him or her, but that didn't also stopor hinder him in achieving his objective.

I really don't think that there is something like 'objectively  winning' in EVE.

I said one of the only objective. not the only. It's not the best, not the most important.  Blowing up things in space might not have anything to do with someone's character, or story, or anything they ever ever want to do in eve.  This was a specific discussion about relating to how blowing up someone's ship can be handled.

It's one of the things we have in this game to inform other aspects of the game that is unarguable.   People can have a difference of opinions and outcomes on all sorts of things, but this particular method is very objective and generally transparent as far as results go.

We can RP around all sorts of other scenarios and storylines in this game but exploding the other person's things is a reliable metric for x person doing a thing better than y person in that particular moment.


Keep in mind this does not put a qualitative ruling on the results of pvp.  Maybe your character is rich and doesn't care about losing people, maybe it's part of a larger plot, maybe they are suicidal, who knows.  What both sides are generally expected to agree on unarguably is that x ship shot y ship and y ship exploded.



« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2013, 17:07 by Silas Vitalia »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #28 on: 24 Sep 2013, 17:11 »

The thing about RP in an environment like EVE is that we tend to have very few methods of having an outside 'judges ruling' on things. 

If we were playing a tabletop game there would be a DM who could definitively say 'so and so lost this battle and this is what happened'

EVE doesn't have those mechanics for the vast, vast majority of what we RPers do in the EVE client.  Most everything we do is text-chat based, the vast bulk of world building, talking, plotting, who knows.

What EVE does have is game mechanics for a specific type of combat, and a few other things.  I like using the game mechanics for my RP as often as I like because it's a neutral arbiter in many ways. 

Who knows if my bodyguard can beat your assassin in a dimly-lit alley? The EVE client certainly has no objective way of telling me.

Did your battleship obliterate my cruiser and destroy my pod? EVE client can handle this very well, and that's how I like to steer a lot of my character based conflicts as a result.

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Vic Van Meter

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Re: What is "god-modding"
« Reply #29 on: 24 Sep 2013, 17:36 »

I think God-modding isn't really a hard and fast set of rules.  The truth is, it's fun to have player driven content and to build some things around your character that is fun to experience.  God modding is almost certainly situational, and avoiding it is driven by the following question, "Does this make sense if I'm totally honest with myself?"

As an example, I'll take Constantin Baracca's current ministry.  He is traveling the cluster with a few other priests and they are working to convert people into the Amarrian religion.  He literally talks about a vast number of people he's converting and that he's starting a movement.  That's a big pill to swallow, because that's a huge chunk of assumptions to make.  However, this has happened in real life and has historical precedents.  To make this palatable, though, you have to ask a few questions and you face a lot of restrictions.

  • Would this work in real life?  Obviously, Father Constantin has to be focusing on someone who is not happy with their lives.  He is essentially selling slavery or, at the very least, an undeniably authoritarian government.  So would he be able to convert thousands of well-heeled middle class or rich people?  Obviously not.  He is going to have to start converting people who hate their current society and are willing to believe that ANYTHING is better.  So Constantin's converts are usually lower income or completely homeless and unemployed.  Most of them are recovering drug addicts or prisoners who can't find satisfying work.  This plays back into Constantin's character, making him into a charitable champion for the impoverished, in his own way.  This also avoids people with real political and monetary power being largely involved.
  • Would someone have rationally interrupted him by now?  That's probably the most important question you have to ask before you fire a gun at everyone in a bar or walk into a Matari government hall with a train of slaves on a long chain.  You have to have an answer for this or just don't do it.  Constantin doesn't often dock in Minmatar space and has to do a lot to cover his tracks (you guys don't even know the half of it).  However, since he does tend to shoot pirates in Minmatar space and isn't necessarily seen as much of a threat, he is tolerated, if not welcome in their space.  I have to keep in mind, during his RP, that Minmatar space especially is a very thin line to walk for him.  Other spaces have no issue with him at present, but Constantin can't get too crazy out there or the government will make sure he can't even jump into their space.
  • What needs to happen for this to be possible?  Constantin has to have the backing of the church.  Amarrians in general don't do these kinds of things solo.  That means he is definitely working for someone with the blessing of very powerful people.  I have to keep that in mind.  If he'd done this shtick and then I'd made the claim that he was fighting the church itself, it wouldn't make any sense.  So it's important that, even if he doesn't talk about it often, it's known he has backing.
  • Can he be stopped?  In your mind, you need to know your character isn't untouchable or unbeatable.  That's almost a given, since a character needs to minimize his vulnerabilities anyway if he wants something to succeed.  Constantin can be interrupted or stopped, but someone would need to work very hard.  He's something not often seen among capsuleers:  a charismatic preacher.  Lucky for him, he's not exactly running into people who know how to deal with him.

This is in a general character-defining sense.  Essentially, almost anything will be allowed if it is interesting enough, but it has to pass what an old RP tutor of mine called "the smell test."

For example, let's say a fight breaks out in a bar.  You post that you turn towards someone who is backing into a corner and do whatever it is you do.  Someone behind you says they pick up a chair and swing it at you while your back is turned.  You almost have to allow the hit to stand because, by definition, you can't see it coming and you have no way of knowing when it hits you.  If it does, you can almost certainly roll with it.  If you're large, you can macho your character up and have him shrug it off.  If in the past the person hitting you with the chair talked about wearing high, clicking heels, you can say you hear him coming.  Or if it is a woman who has described she is wearing a certain scent, you can smell her.

At the same time, an attacker has to be realistic.  The person with the chair needs to be very specific with what's happening and what the circumstances are.  If the attacker is a five foot, ninety pound woman, even a chair probably isn't going to send a seven foot, three hundred pound behemoth of a man flying across the room.  There is a reason large boxers have their own weight divisions, even a few pounds and a few inches difference skews a fight's favor monumentally.

Most of all, be reasonable.  There are less people who go to bars specifically looking to fight anybody at all than you might think.  No one is walking into bars and immediately splashing a drink into someone's face for no reason.  Even if that happens rarely in the real world, it isn't really making for interesting RP.  It's about to start a conflict without any investment.  Suddenly, two people are trying to hurt each other and there's no reason why anyone should be interested in the outcome.

Sometimes, you just have to realize that RP isn't exactly like RL and we're here to tell stories.  Things should happen that drives character development and story development, not bring the flow of the evening to a screeching halt.  Any fight will inevitably do just that.  If most of the people in a room are ignoring a fight, odds are they're ignoring your RP for a reason.  That's not usually something you just miss.  It might just be that people are starting to think that, rather than a sudden breakdown due to tension, this is just someone IRL interrupting their much better and personal RP.

Hence the "smell test".  If people look at it and think it's genuinely character driven and rational, people won't call you out on it.  When people are calling you out on something, even if you don't think it's god-modding, you have to realize you've set off the smoke detector somehow.  If it doesn't smell right, people have a right to call you out on it.  While it's fairly obvious that having a bottle of expensive cognac isn't god-modding but having a cadre of ninja warriors suddenly attack the bar Dusk 'Til Dawn style is, sometimes you just have to use your best judgement.

I'd say that the best thing to do is to make sure other people are involved and that everything fits in the flow of the roleplay.  If you spend enough time setting it up and EVERYONE is really enjoying kicking the shit out of your ninja NPCs, even that's not god-modding.  If you suddenly produce a bottle of fine cognac while you're locked in a prison cell with no way out, you've essentially auto-ed in a non-apparent element.

There are comprehensive lists and ways you can go about defining what is and isn't god-modding, but there are really no hard and fast rules.  Given time, circumstances, and everyone's approval and involvement, you can get away with almost anything.  If you don't bother even pretending you're just one character in a world instead of Duke Nukem in a field of bowling pins, everything you do is going to be god-modding.

Regardless of what people outside the gaming community think, RP is all about social skills and interaction.  The skills that make a good RPer aren't the ones that make a good writer, they're the ones that make a good team player.  It works best when you play as one element of a world.  Let other people make a big deal out of you or not.  Odds are, if your character is good and your RP is solid, people will want to interact with you.  You will give their character fuel and a lot of room to flourish.  Don't dictate to the crowd if they already don't want to be sitting down to listen to a speech.  They'll not be paying attention and you'll only be interrupting their conversations anyway.
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