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Author Topic: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?  (Read 3326 times)

Ollie

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Quote from: Svetlana Scarlet
And it's been far too long since any of the empire RPers have had anything they could truly rally around. Give us something to fight for rather than fight against, for crying out loud. You want to know why Caldari RP has been sucked out? Because most Caldari RPers have gotten tired of trying to justify or go along with the utterly retarded and pointless acts of their faction. Why has Federation RP had such a shitty time since forever? Because CCP has made them so fucking bland for so long, and then turned them into incompetent boobs and caricatures of the worst parts of post-9/11 America that it's hard for anyone to actually feel passionate about their ideals. The Amarr and Minmatar have easy rallying cries (religion and abolition, respectively), but even they could use something more meaty.

It's a reasonable point and one - as Svetlana notes - that's not necessarily confined to one faction.

What do you like about the current status of how empire factions are portrayed by CCP? What are the problems in your opinion? And how would you propose to do it differently?
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Publius Valerius

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #1 on: 06 Mar 2013, 21:03 »

Quote from: Svetlana Scarlet
And it's been far too long since any of the empire RPers have had anything they could truly rally around. Give us something to fight for rather than fight against, for crying out loud. You want to know why Caldari RP has been sucked out? Because most Caldari RPers have gotten tired of trying to justify or go along with the utterly retarded and pointless acts of their faction. Why has Federation RP had such a shitty time since forever? Because CCP has made them so fucking bland for so long, and then turned them into incompetent boobs and caricatures of the worst parts of post-9/11 America that it's hard for anyone to actually feel passionate about their ideals. The Amarr and Minmatar have easy rallying cries (religion and abolition, respectively), but even they could use something more meaty.

It's a reasonable point and one - as Svetlana notes - that's not necessarily confined to one faction.

What do you like about the current status of how empire factions are portrayed by CCP? What are the problems in your opinion? And how would you propose to do it differently?

Sorry for any misspellings,

I start with the easy question: "What are the problems in your opinion?"

I think between the lines have many already pointed some things out and for that matter I think this thread is gold:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=184864

As for me I have already pointed many Ideas where the problem is out, many times (here, here, and some other places, to lazy to search now.). I think a "good thing" is missing (1) as well as logic*(2) and respect of the older PF(3). I get still angry about Eternes lates changes on the Kingdom faction, which he had made for no reason what so over, without any explanation. It gives me the felling of: "Dude, here is some shit, eat it or die." And if you question, that you can snipy one-liner. So my feeling is two things are missing: A general "good" thing in a faction, where a RPler of this faction can play around. Secondly, dont fuck up older PF. Still dont get Eternes point three, and more I think about it, the more angry I get. :(

*A point, which brings us to some past errors around the Caldari and Amarr PF around the books and some short stories (TonyG).
« Last Edit: 06 Mar 2013, 21:27 by Publius Valerius »
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #2 on: 06 Mar 2013, 23:38 »

I can only speak for myself, but if CCP wants to pit the empires at each others' throats, they need to give everyone a good reason to fight that they can feel good about. Right now, no one has a particularly good casus belli; I'm not sure why anyone is really fighting at this point because there's really no threat to the status quo (thanks to the limp warfare mechanics). Even if the Gallente wanted to get the Caldari out of Luminaire, CONCORD has kind of quashed that particular goal even if the Caldari titan had not. One of the problems with the way factional war went down, in my mind, was that CCP tried to make it sound like an all-out war when they didn't have the story or the mechanics to really back it up.

There is also the problem that because of the nature of the factional warfare mechanic, there's no real aims for any of the wars for any of the sides. What are the Caldari trying to achieve with their fighting? How will they "win"? The same questions could be asked of all the empires. The real answer is "they can't," which is the issue. I remain convinced that CCP would have been far better to make a "privateer" mechanic, where players were paid bounties to raid shipping of their enemies while the cold war continues, rather than the laughable "war" we have now.

Now, some people want to play Space Nazis, I guess, and that's their decision, but I don't think more people really want to play villains who are villainous for little or no real reason. If you want people to rally to a cause, you need there to be a good reason for it; you need for all sides to have a claim on being in the right. You also need the reason for fighting to be one that complements each empire's culture.

The problem is that now that horse has already left the barn, and it's a little late to be closing that particular door. I don't know how you bring things back to the point where you can get the Caldari RP block that has been fed up with the State lately to come back without it seeming contrived. For the Caldari, they are primarily insular and paranoid, so their motivation has to be a threat to their lives or, at the very least, their livelihoods. They aren't imperialists like the Amarr, they aren't crusaders for truth, justice, and the Gallente way like the Federation, and up until the sudden about face that was just pulled out of nowhere in TEA, they weren't hell-bent on revenge or the freedom of their lost brothers like the Minmatar.

There is one possibility though. Caldari Prime has been retaken by the Caldari, and now, I think even the most peaceable-minded of Caldari, who want the war to end and things to return to the pre-TEA status quo, would be loathe to sacrifice their homeworld to that end. If Heth were to be toppled, the CPD disbanded, and the CEP to open peace negotiations with the Federation, and the Federation to insist on the return on Caldari Prime to end the war, I can see many Caldari quickly changing their minds about peace. If they were then "betrayed" during the course of negotiations -- some misunderstanding leads to the deaths of Caldari negotiators or prominent VIPs, perhaps in a way similar to how I've said I would have done the death of Gariushi, I can definitely see the paranoid Caldari seeing that this was just a ploy to buy the Federation time to strike, and seeing the Caldari rally again for war. But this time, their goal is to force the Federation to accept a peace, with the minimum condition a return to pre-war borders and the declaration of Caldari Prime as Caldari territory. That is a cause I think Svetlana could get behind.

Of course, for the Federation, this may be a ridiculous demand to them -- a major Caldari world deep in the heart of the Federation? What about the fate of Gallente and other Federation citizens on Caldari Prime who want to leave? Would the Caldari insist they remain, as essentially hostages, even with a peace? So now the Federation is fighting to force the Caldari to accept a peace where Caldari Prime is returned to the Federation.

And then there's another wrinkle in the ointment: the Intaki. What of the Intaki agreement with Ishukone and Mordus Legion? Here's an idea, CCP, and I don't know how feasible it is, but...why not make at least part of Placid merge with the Syndicate and form some sort of new Intaki Free State, which asks for assistance from the Caldari? Then you have a Gallente civil war which only inflames tensions further, and gives the Gallente even more of a reason to want to punch the Caldari in the face, especially if you have it be something that was created with a razor thin margin, where there's Intaki begging for the Federation to protect them from being absorbed by the soulless State, and Gallente business interests demanding the Federation protect them.

These sort of conflicts give both sides the ability to feel justified, and gives them a positive reason to fight, which is really what is needed now. Right now, the reason for the fighting to go on mostly boils down to either phat lewts or "they are bad." Neither of these is particularly appealing to the roleplayer, I think.

Of course, the lack of any endgame makes a lot of this still seem hollow, so that is something I feel like CCP really needs to address. If I was them, I would bring factional warfare back from a rather lame version of a "hot war" and eventually at least have a ceasefire declared, and turn factional warfare into border skirmishes, convoy raids, disputed territories, and a much more murky kind of conflict where empires can have temporary successes and make gains, but where it's hard to get an overwhelming advantage. That would require a significant overhaul to the mechanics though, and I'm not sure that's something that will get much buy-in from CCP. :/
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Gesakaarin

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #3 on: 07 Mar 2013, 01:15 »

What I'd love to see more from every faction is just more plotting, scheming, backstabbing and plotting. One of the things I always loved about Eve was the sense that in New Eden, everyone has their own agendas and power was the only currency that mattered. It had this flavour of nothing being as it seems, and you always had to be paranoid to stay alive because as a capsuleer there was no right or wrong, just realpolitik.

Increasingly, I've felt that CCP abandoned that concept and instead went with the direction of the story being the equivalent of a Michael Bay themepark ride where subtlety be damned all that matters is more explosions and Hollywood stereotypes. That dark and gritty realism that once underpinned Eve just felt lost to these grand, sweeping narratives that honestly made little sense because they were just poor plots to explain game mechanics like FW or Incursions and didn't engage with the philosophical and political complexities inherent in the background fiction.

In short though, I guess what I'd like to see is say, more Caldari inter-corporate warfare in the pursuit of "market dominance"; Amarrian Houses and Heirs using religion and theology as a weapon against each other; Minmatar Tribes and Clans attempting to shaft each other politically; Gallente lobbyists, political parties and special interests fighting each other on the Senate floor on ideology and economics.

The only issue to me though is that such inward focus on the factions will never occur because so long as they're at war that's probably always going to get all the attention, and instead of having subtlety and nuance we'll probably end up with externalizing issues and engaging in the forever war of propaganda and demonizing of fictional enemies.
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Vikarion

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #4 on: 07 Mar 2013, 03:15 »

Frankly, I'm so fucking cynical about how CCP uses the Caldari that I don't even want to write about how I think they should be portrayed, because there's the fear that they'll run off to do the opposite if they ever find it.

That sounds a bit arrogant, but I really invested in the sort of view that Svetlana has of the State - to wit, I'm very much a fan of the ShadowRunner-esque style - and CCP has spent the last 4 years or so doing their best to destroy it. I've watched Caldari RPer after RPer leave the scene, change loyalties, or leave the game entirely, for years, only to have CCP Falcon say that he thinks Caldari RP is healthy. At this point, I'm largely RPing at all simply because I'm so damn stubborn.

I can enjoy playing villains at times, even though the Caldari weren't portrayed as villains when I picked them. But to be an enjoyable villain, you need good reasons for what you do, a chance to win, and intelligence. The Caldari, as a faction, have managed to come across as less intelligent than a lobotomized chihuahua on crack. And there's been no chance for Caldari RPers to win at anything - as I've documented elsewhere, whether the Caldari have participated in events or not, prevailed in FW or not, CCP have spun it to be a Caldari misstep or defeat. It's hard to get excited about "Uprising" when one knows that if CCP indulges in their usual tendencies, Tibus Heth will probably be replaced with Adolf Stalin or something.

So, at this point, I'd almost be happier if CCP never mentioned the State again, simply because they wouldn't be able to screw it up more.

Oh, on the PH meter for bitterness, I think I'm running around a 14.5 right now. Give or take.
« Last Edit: 07 Mar 2013, 03:18 by Vikarion »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #5 on: 07 Mar 2013, 07:27 »

Well to my opinion, believe it or not, Caldari RP is the healthiest at the moment, so Falcon is probably right to my eyes. Something like half of the really active RPers are more or less Caldari atm.

What I'd love to see more from every faction is just more plotting, scheming, backstabbing and plotting. One of the things I always loved about Eve was the sense that in New Eden, everyone has their own agendas and power was the only currency that mattered. It had this flavour of nothing being as it seems, and you always had to be paranoid to stay alive because as a capsuleer there was no right or wrong, just realpolitik.

Increasingly, I've felt that CCP abandoned that concept and instead went with the direction of the story being the equivalent of a Michael Bay themepark ride where subtlety be damned all that matters is more explosions and Hollywood stereotypes. That dark and gritty realism that once underpinned Eve just felt lost to these grand, sweeping narratives that honestly made little sense because they were just poor plots to explain game mechanics like FW or Incursions and didn't engage with the philosophical and political complexities inherent in the background fiction.

In short though, I guess what I'd like to see is say, more Caldari inter-corporate warfare in the pursuit of "market dominance"; Amarrian Houses and Heirs using religion and theology as a weapon against each other; Minmatar Tribes and Clans attempting to shaft each other politically; Gallente lobbyists, political parties and special interests fighting each other on the Senate floor on ideology and economics.

The only issue to me though is that such inward focus on the factions will never occur because so long as they're at war that's probably always going to get all the attention, and instead of having subtlety and nuance we'll probably end up with externalizing issues and engaging in the forever war of propaganda and demonizing of fictional enemies.

That's mostly what I would like to get too.
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Anslol

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #6 on: 07 Mar 2013, 08:08 »

Anslo stopped caring about the Federation Government a long time ago. The only reason he works for the Navy is to keep people safe from criminal factions. He refuses  to do any other mission involved in attacking another Empire's forces.

That being said, Anslo has a deep passion for the Federation as an ideal and its citizens. I'll admit that the governments have been portrayed as derpalot. For me, it seems like Roden is just a figure head and Blaque is truly running the show. Anslo see's it the same way. He never liked the Blaque Eagles when they first started as he saw them as a complete affront to what the Fed stood for. Instead of absolute freedom, it was freedom as long as the government wasn't too criticized or you weren't a Caldari sympathizer.

Fuck. That. Noise.

So to me, the internal strife the Empires are going through seems to be leading up to better things. For now, it seems like the players could really guide where their Empire ends up by their actions. So yes, for now there is little to rally to be way of the Empire Governmental Groups. HOWEVER, there is a CAUSE to rally for. I mean look at all the Caldari RPers. Every time Heth makes another dictator move, more and more stand up and rally against him and the CPD, to the point that the Mega's are now taking a stand. That, to me, is stupidly cool.

I think that in the next few weeks, we'll all have something to rally for in our respective Empires. It may not be fighting another Empire to preserve your own, but it may still be a fight to preserve your Empire from internal enemies.

Anslo's definitely looking at ways to strike at the Blaque Eagles. As soon as he saw Midna on stage promoting them, he just had a bad feeling plain and simple. The concert raid was bad, the people disappearing was bad, but Midna never struck him as a Blaque fan girl.

Anslo's already found something to rally around. Just keep your eyes peeled. I got a feeling the next few weeks and months are going to exciting.  :)
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Ava Starfire

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #7 on: 07 Mar 2013, 08:54 »

I'd love to see more intertribal rivalries and intrigue, more focus on their new direction, more reconstruction and focus on the Republic itself, not just "rawr we are angry cause slaves!" from the Minmatar camp.

The Minmatar, for as fascinating a people as they could be, are the most 1 dimensional of the Empires in my opinion.

And CCP, where the hell are the elders?
Kind of sad.
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Sepherim

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #8 on: 07 Mar 2013, 09:22 »

I agree with all being said here, and I believe CCP may be giving a couple hints on some of those directions but not all.

1) Dissapearance of the monolithic empires and intra-faction conflict and development of different approaches: Heth is being deposed, and some Heirs are starting to speak against eachother on educational matters. Still waiting for the Republic and Federation to walk this road, but at least some have started.

2) A positive spin to give reasons for players to defend their factions: ain't seeing much of this, that's true. Hopefully Heth gets deposed soon, and all factions return to their gray areas where you could find an internal faction that fitted your viewpoint and, thus, gave you reasons to defend it.

3) An endgame to FW: probably the most utopian thing of all, and one of the most important in my book. Without an end to the war, it's pointless. The Caldari already "won" the war, and the Gallente did so too. And nothing happened. That's an RP killer. Not to mention the obvious impossibilities and ilogical limitations the FW ruleset poses, which are hard to argument.

4) Increasing grays: I believe this is happening, slowly. Articio's talk on culture and education, the Tribes uniting relatively but still under Shakor, the Megas caring for the people... some hints are starting, but they're still too weak.
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Natalcya Katla

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #9 on: 07 Mar 2013, 10:06 »

While I believe that the Sansha RP community is actually healthy, unlike just about every other faction community judging from what I keep hearing...

The Nation used to be all about leaving the old world behind and building a brave new world to live in. If we could get some events that focused specifically on civilization (re)building as opposed to being the cluster's designated locust swarm, that would be awesome.  :)
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #10 on: 07 Mar 2013, 10:11 »

The Caldari RP community might be "healthy," in that there are a fair number of us who are very immersed in the role, but it's mostly been in spite of CCP, not because of them. Few of us are actually invested in the current incarnation of the Caldari State. I think there are more of us decrying what is happening there than supporting our homeland at this point. I suppose antipathy might be more healthy than apathy, but not by that much.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #11 on: 07 Mar 2013, 10:19 »

I can only speak for myself, but if CCP wants to pit the empires at each others' throats, they need to give everyone a good reason to fight that they can feel good about. Right now, no one has a particularly good casus belli; I'm not sure why anyone is really fighting at this point because there's really no threat to the status quo (thanks to the limp warfare mechanics). Even if the Gallente wanted to get the Caldari out of Luminaire, CONCORD has kind of quashed that particular goal even if the Caldari titan had not. One of the problems with the way factional war went down, in my mind, was that CCP tried to make it sound like an all-out war when they didn't have the story or the mechanics to really back it up.

There is also the problem that because of the nature of the factional warfare mechanic, there's no real aims for any of the wars for any of the sides. What are the Caldari trying to achieve with their fighting? How will they "win"? The same questions could be asked of all the empires. The real answer is "they can't," which is the issue. I remain convinced that CCP would have been far better to make a "privateer" mechanic, where players were paid bounties to raid shipping of their enemies while the cold war continues, rather than the laughable "war" we have now.

Now, some people want to play Space Nazis, I guess, and that's their decision, but I don't think more people really want to play villains who are villainous for little or no real reason. If you want people to rally to a cause, you need there to be a good reason for it; you need for all sides to have a claim on being in the right. You also need the reason for fighting to be one that complements each empire's culture.

The problem is that now that horse has already left the barn, and it's a little late to be closing that particular door. I don't know how you bring things back to the point where you can get the Caldari RP block that has been fed up with the State lately to come back without it seeming contrived. For the Caldari, they are primarily insular and paranoid, so their motivation has to be a threat to their lives or, at the very least, their livelihoods. They aren't imperialists like the Amarr, they aren't crusaders for truth, justice, and the Gallente way like the Federation, and up until the sudden about face that was just pulled out of nowhere in TEA, they weren't hell-bent on revenge or the freedom of their lost brothers like the Minmatar.

There is one possibility though. Caldari Prime has been retaken by the Caldari, and now, I think even the most peaceable-minded of Caldari, who want the war to end and things to return to the pre-TEA status quo, would be loathe to sacrifice their homeworld to that end. If Heth were to be toppled, the CPD disbanded, and the CEP to open peace negotiations with the Federation, and the Federation to insist on the return on Caldari Prime to end the war, I can see many Caldari quickly changing their minds about peace. If they were then "betrayed" during the course of negotiations -- some misunderstanding leads to the deaths of Caldari negotiators or prominent VIPs, perhaps in a way similar to how I've said I would have done the death of Gariushi, I can definitely see the paranoid Caldari seeing that this was just a ploy to buy the Federation time to strike, and seeing the Caldari rally again for war. But this time, their goal is to force the Federation to accept a peace, with the minimum condition a return to pre-war borders and the declaration of Caldari Prime as Caldari territory. That is a cause I think Svetlana could get behind.

Of course, for the Federation, this may be a ridiculous demand to them -- a major Caldari world deep in the heart of the Federation? What about the fate of Gallente and other Federation citizens on Caldari Prime who want to leave? Would the Caldari insist they remain, as essentially hostages, even with a peace? So now the Federation is fighting to force the Caldari to accept a peace where Caldari Prime is returned to the Federation.

And then there's another wrinkle in the ointment: the Intaki. What of the Intaki agreement with Ishukone and Mordus Legion? Here's an idea, CCP, and I don't know how feasible it is, but...why not make at least part of Placid merge with the Syndicate and form some sort of new Intaki Free State, which asks for assistance from the Caldari? Then you have a Gallente civil war which only inflames tensions further, and gives the Gallente even more of a reason to want to punch the Caldari in the face, especially if you have it be something that was created with a razor thin margin, where there's Intaki begging for the Federation to protect them from being absorbed by the soulless State, and Gallente business interests demanding the Federation protect them.

These sort of conflicts give both sides the ability to feel justified, and gives them a positive reason to fight, which is really what is needed now. Right now, the reason for the fighting to go on mostly boils down to either phat lewts or "they are bad." Neither of these is particularly appealing to the roleplayer, I think.

Of course, the lack of any endgame makes a lot of this still seem hollow, so that is something I feel like CCP really needs to address. If I was them, I would bring factional warfare back from a rather lame version of a "hot war" and eventually at least have a ceasefire declared, and turn factional warfare into border skirmishes, convoy raids, disputed territories, and a much more murky kind of conflict where empires can have temporary successes and make gains, but where it's hard to get an overwhelming advantage. That would require a significant overhaul to the mechanics though, and I'm not sure that's something that will get much buy-in from CCP. :/

these are some delicious words right here.
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Joh

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #12 on: 13 Mar 2013, 01:00 »

Very tasty words Saede. How much fun would that scenario be?  :D
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Matariki Rain

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #13 on: 13 Mar 2013, 03:07 »

And CCP, where the hell are the elders?

Lower-case elders or upper-case Elders?

))
The Elders are gone, and good riddance. They took their gene samples, and whatever else they were using us to incubate, and went away. They have no interest in the Matari as people or as tribes.
((
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Jocca Quinn

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Re: What do you want your empire RP to rally around?
« Reply #14 on: 13 Mar 2013, 03:23 »

And CCP, where the hell are the elders?

Lower-case elders or upper-case Elders?

))
The Elders are gone, and good riddance. They took their gene samples, and whatever else they were using us to incubate, and went away. They have no interest in the Matari as people or as tribes.
((

Actually I think that they have no interest in "The Republic", the people and the tribes they do care about. The Republic is such a mess they have decided its not worth fixing so they washed their hands of it and are off creating the real minmatar empire/state/federation Skymother project (more details on this pls CCP).
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