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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Corporation and Alliance Development => Topic started by: Ken on 28 Jul 2012, 17:02

Title: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 28 Jul 2012, 17:02
Reference (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3426.msg54213#msg54213)

[spoiler]
(http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/graphics/icons/64/icon41_04.png)

I am still very happy with the Honor Guard and Caldari FW, and am (currently) only assessing this idea for interest, style, and feasibility rather than launching something new.  Please reply regarding your level of interest and/or constructive criticism on the project.[/spoiler]

(http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/9883/spooxsplash512.png)

Quote
Less rare, though still not common, are the other detrimental marks such as the Spiraling Circle, the Scarecrow, the Purple Cross, or the Slaver's Fang.  These marks may force the bearer into a self-imposed lifetime vow of silence under traditional penalty of having their tongues cut out should they ever break it.  In recent years, it has become common for those with these marks to choose a life of exile over the burden of bearing their shame amongst their kin.

Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX] is an alt roleplay challenge corporation with a Minmatar theme, having IC connections to and parallels with the Thukker tribe and their MO.  Its members ascribe to a nomadic playstyle, moving from place to place and never owning more durable assets than they can fit in the cargohold of a Mammoth.  Self-sufficiency is a paramount goal.  SPOOX will explore and exploit to survive.  The Probe and Covetor will be our greatest tools.  We will strive to produce our own ships, modules, and ammunition for mission running and PvP.  The Rifter and Thrasher will be our primary weapons.  We will form a community of expatriates and exiles, forever on the move, and see how far the journey takes us.

Take note, SPOOX is meant to be a place to explore new characters in a constrained environment rather than relocate old ones.  Characters are expected to be alts (or at least start that way) and should be new graduates.  Members should limit any initial injections of ISK from other accounts to 50m for skillbooks and basic starting materials.

Recruitment is currently closed.  It will be selective.

Corp Priorities
Roleplay & Character Development
Nomadic Playstyle
Science & Industry
Mission Running
PVP/Piracy

(http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/graphics/icons/64/icon78_04.png)
Outcast Roleplay (with a fresh start)

The concept of exile is the roleplay foundation of SPOOX.  Its members are not quite pirates, but are by no means loyalists.  Unwelcome, either by force or by choice, in the places they once called home, circumstances require them to adopt a pragmatic worldview in order to survive.  There is little room for idealism in such a hostile universe.  The SPOOX community is a closed one, for obvious reasons, with the focus being on internal roleplay and character development over politics and showboating.

Roleplay is the leading element of the corp and immersion is key.  Accordingly, corp chat is IC.

(http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/graphics/icons/64/icon46_04.png)
Nomadic Basing

As a roleplay challenge corporation, SPOOX places some limitations on playstyle for flavor and variety.  The main idea here is that the corp relocates its base of operations every few weeks at the most, and its members have to pack up everything they want to keep and haul it in a single industrial ship.  With new characters, this starts with repackaging a frigate and a mining barge or two and moving them in a Mammoth.  Later on, we'll look at acquiring Mastodons or a Fenrir and expanding our "migrant fleet".

(http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/graphics/icons/64/icon53_10.png)
T1 Industry (expandable to T2)

With self-sufficiency more important to outcasts than your average character, mining, refining, and manufacturing are the corp's primary sources of equipment.  The corp makes what it can, uses what it needs, and sells the rest on the local market, wherever that happens to be at the time.  Profitability is not the objective.  Industry is simply a means to the end of acquiring necessary resources for survival.

(http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/graphics/icons/64/icon53_15.png)
Exploration & Thukker PvE (and don't forget smuggling and drugs!)

Even as capsuleers, SPOOX characters are supposed to be unwelcome in the places most others can visit freely.  There are cultural reasons for this.  Only among the Thukkers can they find parties willing to do business openly.  Thus, the only NPC faction the corp interacts with is the Thukker Tribe.  Mission running for Thukker Mix and Trust Partners are a major solo and group activity, but ratting (in belts and complexes) is also encouraged.  The exploration mini-professions of probing, hacking, archaeology, and salvage are also of interest.

(http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/graphics/icons/64/icon78_10.png)
PVP/Piracy

Once the kinks have been worked out and a rhythm developed, SPOOX will move toward a w-space/lowsec lifestyle.

Roster
(https://image.eveonline.com/Character/92275839_64.jpg)
Len Braid
(https://image.eveonline.com/Character/92310382_64.jpg)
Rharcyn Vuld
(https://image.eveonline.com/Character/92301876_64.jpg)
Heiki Haklar
(https://image.eveonline.com/Character/91930327_64.jpg)
Konar Vazul
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 28 Jul 2012, 17:37
I'm looking for new stuff to do in EVE, and seeing as I just freed up an alt slot on my other account I think I'll go ahead and sign up for this.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Varlerian on 28 Jul 2012, 17:39
+1
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: orange on 28 Jul 2012, 18:34
I would suggest keeping any bases to low/null sec or border areas.  Life on the fringes of the Empire, away from those nice trade hubs.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Valdezi on 28 Jul 2012, 19:26
I've never played a Minmatar. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 28 Jul 2012, 20:05
Alt made. Now, to dredge through the NPE...
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: ArtOfLight on 28 Jul 2012, 21:12
This is a fascinating idea and it's awesome to see something new and inventive coming from the Minmatar angle. While I can't participate (or at least have no inclination to do so presently), I would love to see this develop.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: kalaratiri on 29 Jul 2012, 01:54
Well, this looks familiar  ;) I'll have to see if I can spare an alt slot when I get back from my holiday.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Mathra Hiede on 29 Jul 2012, 02:50
You know this sounds pretty damn awesome :P

I may have to free up a spot to look into this as unfortunately my Minny Alt Durtha is almost a perfect fit for this... as you essentially described him :P
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Misan on 29 Jul 2012, 08:45
+1 for cool Thukker-ness. Nice to see someone else trying the angle. :)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: hellgremlin on 29 Jul 2012, 13:03
ELEVEN THUMBS UP. I had to cut nine of them off strangers to make this happen, but there you go.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Syagrius on 29 Jul 2012, 15:38
I've never played a Minmatar. Hmmm.

What he said!
It sounds like an excellent idea, I ground an Amarr alt just to free up a slot  :eek:
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Karmilla Strife on 29 Jul 2012, 21:22
Awesome idea! I love the challenge aspect to it.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: DeadRow on 30 Jul 2012, 04:16
Very cool idea :3
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Vieve on 30 Jul 2012, 07:46
Nice idea!
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Tamiroth on 30 Jul 2012, 09:45
I absolutely love the idea!
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 30 Jul 2012, 10:43
Glad to see the idea, though I'll note a few considerations. You may have already thought of them, but just in case:

- Think about eventually getting up to Jump Freighters and Orcas too. The Minmatar JF in particular comes from the Thukker Tribe, in fact.
- Limiting to alts may limit activity and that can be the death knell for a corp. That's a tradeoff, of course, because bringing in established characters carries its own set of risks.
- If everything is a priority, nothing is.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Gymir Asaadan on 30 Jul 2012, 14:28
Ken, I don't know who you are, but you're on magnificent bastard. I was going to try something along this lines with my "Pirates" angle but mostly focus on operating out of the Arzad II system and following the idea of capsuleers who are given one of the "poor" Voluval marks.

I think the most difficult part of this would be that the mark would have had to been bestowed AFTER one graduated from the Republic capsuleer training program. As it is unlikely that anyone with such a mark would have been selected or made it through the program with such widely disrespected marks.

However it is also difficult to find a IC shaman willing to give such a mark, or at least I have found it difficult with my limited contacts, short of just making up a NPC, and doing it all myself witch would be 1/4 the fun taken out of receiving such a mark. As I see it, the distain from getting such a marking would be immediate and scarring.

Here is how I see it in my imagination, short version, in this case "you" is your character -

You spend months studying lore and training the mind and soul for the Voluval ceremony, think along the lines of importance in a minmatar's life, this would be just as if not more important than marriage. The vent hosts your family and friends, you follow a certain ceremonial procedure, down to the T, you can't feel anything of the mark until it is revealed. Your robe falls away and reveals the mark, suddenly the whole atmosphere changes. Are there gasps in the crowd? do your family and friends recoil from you, instantly push you away, are you given any pity, short of the shaman walking away with you and offering your two choices, Exile or never speaking again, perhaps exile or death, or just death. Do you run from the ceremony, or stand there as if nothing has changed, even though you know from your very roots of understanding that this mark is the evil inherent, damning you to some extent.

Quite compelling RP, and something that should not be overlooked in the development of alts for this project. I imagine these ceremonies would get quite trite if repeated too often, like suddenly 20-30 alts showed up and received bad Voluval marks. I had hoped to move along with my story beyond this point before this idea was brought up more, but damn good stuff.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 30 Jul 2012, 14:42
I think the most difficult part of this would be that the mark would have had to been bestowed AFTER one graduated from the Republic capsuleer training program. As it is unlikely that anyone with such a mark would have been selected or made it through the program with such widely disrespected marks.
I think that's needlessly complicating things.

We don't know what attitude the republic schools have towards the voluval, but I doubt they have any codified discrimination towards people with bad marks. The faculty and other students would shun the marked, certainly, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get an education with a bad mark on your back. There are definitely non-traditionalists who are willing to help those with bad marks, and there are ways to hide your brand and disappear into the teeming masses of the cluster. There are clans who don't practice voluval, so I doubt marks are something that's maintained in paperwork.

Taking all that into account, it would be a lot of work but not impossible to get through a school without getting noticed as having a bad mark. That said, even if you are found out I'm pretty sure every single major school in the Republic would be willing to overlook your mark once it's obvious you're a capsuleer candidate.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ava Starfire on 30 Jul 2012, 14:52
Consider me interested... and posessed of an open character slot.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Gymir Asaadan on 30 Jul 2012, 15:03
I think the most difficult part of this would be that the mark would have had to been bestowed AFTER one graduated from the Republic capsuleer training program. As it is unlikely that anyone with such a mark would have been selected or made it through the program with such widely disrespected marks.
I think that's needlessly complicating things.

We don't know what attitude the republic schools have towards the voluval, but I doubt they have any codified discrimination towards people with bad marks. The faculty and other students would shun the marked, certainly, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get an education with a bad mark on your back. There are definitely non-traditionalists who are willing to help those with bad marks, and there are ways to hide your brand and disappear into the teeming masses of the cluster. There are clans who don't practice voluval, so I doubt marks are something that's maintained in paperwork.

Taking all that into account, it would be a lot of work but not impossible to get through a school without getting noticed as having a bad mark. That said, even if you are found out I'm pretty sure every single major school in the Republic would be willing to overlook your mark once it's obvious you're a capsuleer candidate.

I disagree, but you bring up some interesting points. Not all I agree with.

I guess my line of disbelief begins and ends here.

"I'm pretty sure that every single major school in the Republic would be willing to overlook your mark once it's obvious you're a capsuleer candidate."

It's stated numerous times in the canon that to the Minmatar's shame, their conduct of the Voluval and its bestowed markings, and the people who get bad marking, are repressed and treated poorly by the Minmatar as a whole.

[spoiler]
"Still deeply rooted in tribal folklore and steeped in tradition, the Minmatar often attract scorn for the seemingly barbaric rituals they cling on to; the Voluval, that most integral of ceremonies, chief among them. While it is clearly the most influential and important ritual to a young Matari, it carries with it a terrible burden often swept under the carpet by shamans and spokesmen of the tribal faith. After all, if the fact that those who would fight most fiercely for freedom, would also readily oppress a fragment of their own populace, became known to the public at large – it would surely cut the legs out from under any lucrative charity effort."

From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Outcast_(Chronicle)[/spoiler]

That whole Cron basically implies that people with these marks are either mute, or exiled, not herded through school under the protective umbrella or keeping their mark hidden. Every single major school would still be run by minmatar, and capsuleer or not, my take on that, or rather the indications I get from the "Voluval" and "The Outcast" chrons are they would be excluded from such places once found out.

Just my take on it though, ymmv!
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 30 Jul 2012, 15:14
Here we're talking about the negative but not absolutely damning Voluval marks.  There are shades of gray to play around in rather than just black and white.  And capsuleers are exceptionally rare and valuable things.  Useful assets to the Republic even if a few of them have a culturally repulsive quality.  Plus you might not want to throw them out into the cold so quickly considering the amount of damage a vengeful capsuleer could cause...
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: John Revenent on 30 Jul 2012, 18:46
Ah what the hell.. I will even make a alt for this.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 30 Jul 2012, 20:22
Recruitment for the Kindred of Scarecrows is still closed for the moment, but the very positive response so far makes me think we ought to give this thing a shot.  I appreciate the feedback and will incorporate it as SPOOX is still very much a work in progress.

I have just established an IC public channel, "Kindred Mix", for use with this project.  If you've already created an alt for the purpose of the project, tune in.  I have also thought about using the built-in Constellation channels as a primary means of communication.  In the name of immersion, I want to limit OOC interaction between SPOOX characters to only what is absolutely necessary, so avoid venues where that is likely to happen and try to stay IC as much as possible.

If you haven't yet settled on a character idea, don't rush it.

Some ground rules:

If/as this moves forward, I'll draft some plans for an initial formation of the "migrant fleet" and announce a starting system.  We'd naturally want to start in high-sec and Leurtmar is as good a candidate as any, but we'll see.

Personally, I feel undereducated on Thukker lore, so if anyone has some solid gold links on that topic, I would appreciate you posting them.

More to follow.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 30 Jul 2012, 23:11
We have a great Thukker PF compilation (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=90.0) here already.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 31 Jul 2012, 05:32
Awesome.  Thanks, Cas.  I'd have just run a search but I was fairly tired last night.  :oops:
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 31 Jul 2012, 08:34
No worries! I've been pondering this idea since I saw your post, and my biggest concern right now is the activity levels if you're actively recruiting alts. Any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 31 Jul 2012, 09:54
Recruiting *only* alts, no less. Working as intended imo.  I see it more as a side project akin to the rogue drone alt community than a full time thing.  Mileage may vary of course and more active participants would be natural choices for leadership.  Would probably try to establish a regular activity schedule for the group as a whole...  Mondays with the Migrant Fleet, Thursday Night Thukkers, etc.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 31 Jul 2012, 10:01
Migrant Mondays / Mining Mondays (Every other week)

T1 Tuesdays

Wandering Wednesdays

Thukker Thursdays

Freespace Fridays

 8)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Mathra Hiede on 01 Aug 2012, 03:40
 8)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Lyn Farel on 01 Aug 2012, 05:17
I like that idea.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 01 Aug 2012, 08:11
Character challenge!

Use the personality generator from Dwarf Fortress (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Personality) and play the character accordingly. Try to hit one or two personality points every day.

 :D
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 01 Aug 2012, 08:39
So I'm not the only one who does that.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Katrina Oniseki on 01 Aug 2012, 15:36
Can I suggest that the 50 million ISK allowance be removed? It would make it more fun for those of us with too much money to actually have to scrape a living again, like in the old days. If the whole corporation is doing it, that makes it so much better.

Surely the CEO could have a bit more starting capital, but it would possibly be more exciting if we all had to work together as a real Thukker Caravan to simply make ends meet. Sally Egger needs a more ammunition, but she's broke. Wouldn't it be more fun if a few of them got together and helped her with a mission, instead of someone just randomly chucking her several million?
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: John Revenent on 01 Aug 2012, 16:04
Character challenge!

Use the personality generator from Dwarf Fortress (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Personality) and play the character accordingly. Try to hit one or two personality points every day.

 :D

Dooo eeettt
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 01 Aug 2012, 16:08
Extra points if you cause a tantrum spiral.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Syagrius on 01 Aug 2012, 16:15
"Once you're signed on, there is no docking in non-Thukker stations in high-sec space... but :nefarious: connections can get you clearance in lowsec and below"

I hate to be the slow pupil but could you define "signed on"  :eek:  Why I ask is that I have been mining my little outcast heart out and now have the 24K to buy a sweet new frigate and ... its not in a Thukker Station  :bash:
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 01 Aug 2012, 16:17
There's still a lot of good input coming in on this from across the Backstage community.  I'm really happy to see the level of interest in the project for what it is (Thukker caravans) and in doing something that could bring a lot of us together in game in one place.

I'm looking to convene an OOC meeting in Kindred Mix this Saturday at 2000 Eden Standard to discuss the SPOOX project with all interested and available parties.  We'll be discussing the rules of the challenge in order to reach a consensus and brainstorming ideas for the corp and characters.  I'd like the meeting to run about 60 minutes max.  Please attend using a main character rather than your SPOOX alt, if you already have one.  I want to keep their identities as protected as possible.

If this time doesn't work for you and you have input on the project that hasn't already been aired here, please post it in advance so we can take your points into consideration.

I hate to be the slow pupil but could you define "signed on"

By that I mean once you've formally joined the Kindred of Scarecrows corp.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 01 Aug 2012, 16:29
I don't know if I'll be around, but please be sure to consider the activity implications of an all-alt corporation and what can happen when the initial shine wears off. I could see this kind of working for an industrial "main", actually.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Karmilla Strife on 01 Aug 2012, 17:03
I think part of the fun is the uncertainty that the alt element brings to it. A thukker caravan would have to adapt to changing situations including say the disappearance of a valued member. I also think that if it's interesting enough, people will stick around. Speaking personally, getting involved with RP in the first place was just an alt activity. It's kept me in the game for years longer than I'd likely have stayed.

I've started to give the challenge a try. No 50millionISK startup. I initially tried no tutorial as well but that was pretty difficult. I also quickly noted that thukker distribution missions will likely not be a possibility. Everything seems to be sufficiently difficult but not impossible.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 01 Aug 2012, 18:24
While I'm thinking of it, I heartily endorse using the Constellation channels. I'd have to think about the best way to use them, because Local is so important for intel (especially outside of highsec), but they're so underused that they have value for that very reason.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 01 Aug 2012, 19:12
Please take all of the below as constructive criticism offered in a friendly manner. I'm interested in the project and would like to see it succeed, so it's worth reviewing a few things.

Here we're talking about the negative but not absolutely damning Voluval marks.  There are shades of gray to play around in rather than just black and white.

I want to agree with what you just said. But there's an issue that comes up in the Ray of Matar (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Ray_of_Matar) chronicle:

Quote
She feared she would get one of the degrading marks: the spiraling circle; the scarecrow; the purple cross; or any of the numerous other marks that could forever exile you from Minmatar society. Fortunately this didn’t happen often; Karin had only witnessed it once, when she was six years old. A teenage boy got the worst mark there was: the pale eye. The poor boy had been driven away from the town, not even his family was willing to recognize him, let alone help him. (emphasis added)

This gets repeated in the description of the Voluval (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Voluval):

Quote
The rarest of the negative marks such as the Pale Eye, the Face of Helina, or the Broken Shield can see its bearer out cast by the Minmatar, banished to Arzad II. Less rare, though still not common, are the other detrimental marks such as the Spiraling Circle, the Scarecrow, the Purple Cross, or the Slaver's Fang. These marks may force the bearer into a self-imposed, life-time vow of silence, under traditional penalty of having their tongues cut out should they ever break it. In recent years it has become common for those with these marks to choose a life of exile over the burden of bearing their shame amongst their kin.

So the corp is named after a mark that, while not quite as bad as the Pale Eye, still leads to exile, shunning, or worse. This is shade of grey that's so dark as to be difficult to tell apart without a color chart.

Thukkers by nature are slightly outcast from the rest of Minmatar society despite the "re-unification" a few years ago. That is, while they might be accepted de jure by the political system, they may not be accepted de facto by broader society.  So that alone provides some cultural basis without going to the extreme of the Scarecrow motif. (For now, I won't go into the question of training, except to say that I could think of a few ways to handwave it.)

Essentially, I believe you've mushed together two different types of outcasts: Thukkers and the "marked", if you will. A Thukker caravan following a nomadic lifestyle is a great option and one that obviously appeals to a lot of players (including me). But adding on the additional outcast bits overly complicates things in my mind.

I'd recommend a few things. You could do all, none, or a few of them, of course.

- Assume that some capsuleers may join without the outcast marks because, after all, who can tell them what to do? They would then incur significant cultural rejection from some quarters, much like interracial marriages in the American South during the Jim Crow era, without complicating their backstory as such.
- Lose the "marked outcasts" part of the background and focus on the Thukker caravan. As noted, this gets you shadiness and some level of shunning anyway because "decent people" don't associate with those thieving, scamming Thukkers.
- The docking restriction is kind of hard to handwave. CONCORD doesn't allow docking restrictions in empire space except in the specific case of FW, and even then that's only in contestable systems. (Yes, it's odd that Amarr militia can dock in Rens but not, say, Amamake, I agree.) So is this because people don't like the looks they get - which I have trouble imagining really mattering much to a capsuleer - or for some other reason?

Personally, I'd like to see a focus specifically on the Thukkerism without doubling down with the outcast marks. For a corporation focused on heavy roleplay, that may lead to a lot more trouble than its worth, because the limitations may become so great that players end up losing interest in what will be, after all, alts.

Thoughts / responses?
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 01 Aug 2012, 19:21
The characters we create aren't Thukkers though. The mark can be a reason for a member of the republic to leave it, and in this case align with the Thukkers. So in my eyes it's not at all "doubling up" by going both shunned and Thukker-style - it's using being shunned as a justification for going Thukker-style (and, perhaps just as important, not locking the character or the group down for Thukker-style RP forever).

Docking restrictions is naturally a debatable point, but the way I see it it would be more of a "well fuck you too" from the SPOOX than it would be a deliberate blockade of their activities. And, ultimately, it's more of a gameplay challenge to encourage a certain style of play.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ava Starfire on 01 Aug 2012, 19:40
I have made a thukker alt, sadly, I went into summit before I realized I wasnt supposed to. Whoops. To be honest, if it is a part time, back burner thing for people, ok, but I likely will either 1) just be consistently active on the new character anyways, for the reason outlined below, and for those times when no one is around, I'll find RP where I find it. And no, it wont be as offering to hold hands and sing songs with... well, likely, anyone.

To be honest, this whole Idea has made eve "interesting and new" for me again. It lets me play a Minmatar character, yet, without some of the baggage. I'm more interested in just actually forming a thukker community (so CCP says we cant make "thukker" characters... you have a bio for a reason) than in playing people with outcast marks. Strange and xenophobic? I can get behind that. Likely a psychopath? Meh, not my sort of RP.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 01 Aug 2012, 20:25
Here are some notes from earlier research I did on Thukkers. Feel free to use, ignore, cherry-pick, whatever, it's all good.

Thukker ideas

Nomadism

In New Eden, many pilots live in a defined area for substantial periods of time. This might mean a particular solar system, or a constellation, or some other zone. They work the same agents, mine the same belts, prowl for ratters, defend their sovereignty, or work the same trade routes.

Nomads don't live like that. We move from place to place over time, always looking for what's on the other side of the stargate. We don't consider ourselves to belong to a particular nation or own some volume of space. Instead, we go where we want, when we want, to do what we want. We travel and tinker and trade and, yeah, take.

So we don't have twenty different ships in our hangar. We have a industrial ship and travel light. This week, we live in Essence, and the next week we’re back home in Molden Heath before spending some time in Syndicate or Lonetrek.

For us, this doesn't mean operating independently, though. We fly together as a clan and support each other. We set goals and achieve them, both for individual and group benefit. But that "group" means us, not some larger state to which we should owe allegiance due to the happenstance of our birth.

I am a Thukker. Whether the world sees me as one or not, they must choose. But I fly Thukker until I die.

Thukker Mix

"The Thukkers generally favor speed and offensive power over defensive capability. Thukkers spend their entire lives forever wandering the infinite in their vast caravans.  As such their technology is based as much upon necessity as their ingenious ability to tinker.  Their ship designs therefore tend to based upon the standard empire templates but extensively modified for the Thukkers’ unique needs."

Tech 2 ships

Related Tech 1 base ships

Character Ideas

Of course, “go blow people up” works, too, but here are some other archetypes you might take as a base for whatever works for you.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 01 Aug 2012, 21:16
In short, Cas, the answer is that the central concept is "Republic outcast", not explicitly "Thukker" nor exclusively "ill-marked".  In the case of the character I created for this project, he suffers from a woeful Voluval marking and foreign upbringing.  He's not ethnically Thukker and isn't even really Minmatar in a cultural sense.  Struggling with the implications of his Voluval and their impact on his life will be interesting avenues for RP.  There are other valid character concepts that could comfortably fit within the broad idea of "Republic outcast" without being exclusionary to one another.  For example:


These sorts aren't all reviled for having a verboten tattoo and they aren't all accustomed to a lifestyle and culture built on permanent migration.  Any of them, however, might find themselves at a time and place in their lives, shortly after completing the most harrowing of training regimens (surviving the wet grave), when they are looking for a place among fellow outcasts to call home. 

Regarding the docking restriction, I floated the point because the project is meant to present a roleplay challenge.  Calling any of the artificial restrictions imposed by such a challenge "handwaving" seems dismissive of their purpose to the point that I'm not sure we're still thinking about the same thing.  The idea is to accept these restrictions in order to channelize gameplay in a way that fosters the "Republic outcast" theme.  The characters are capsuleers, yes, but to be honest I think falling back on the excuse of capsuleer power can have a seriously depressive effect on traditional strings of conflict in a character's story.  Without some self-imposed RP-based limitations, would there be any reason to embark on a migratory play style at all?

And remember, not all of these limitations need be taken as OOC rules.  In fact, the central one is directly supported from an in-character perspective in the material we've both referenced:

Quote
These marks may force the bearer into a self-imposed, life-time vow of silence, under traditional penalty of having their tongues cut out should they ever break it.  In recent years it has become common for those with these marks to choose a life of exile over the burden of bearing their shame amongst their kin.

Anyway, solid post with the Thukker coverage there.  Plenty of things to bat around on Saturday during the brainstorming session.

Edit: Mmm-- I should clarify on the corp name.  Kindred of Scarecrows is meant to be a reference to finding companionship among those who also share the condition of being an outcast/exile.  It has a direct parallel with the founding character's reason for being in that condition, but the name is not meant to suggest all Kindred are ill-marked.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 01 Aug 2012, 21:25
Side note for clarity: I meant that anybody could come up with a way to explain the reasons why an outcast still got capsuleer training, but not for docking. My apologies for having communicated without being clear on that; it was not intended to be dismissive in the least.

Based on in-game OOC conversation, I think there are a number of people confused by the requests for Thukker RP, docking limited to their stations, and related discussion on that. Quite a few of us understood it to be a Thukker caravan, but now I see that you mean a group of outcasts who take up a Thukker-like existence.

Some pilots may do something in parallel that could cooperate with SPOOX, because you have a lot of good ideas here (especially the fresh start idea, which works well). Perhaps a loose coalition of nomadic bands that occasionally work together in terms of trade or such.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 01 Aug 2012, 21:34
Ok, gotcha.  No problem.  Reconciling expectations across the population of interested participants is exactly why I plan to hold a meeting to discuss the specifics and reach a consensus.  That is still set for Saturday at 2000 Eden Standard in the Kindred Mix channel.  Your (and everyone else's) participation at that meeting is greatly desired.  I think it best to attempt any project of this sort from a single launching point.  Frankly, I think the project likely to fail if it fractures into smaller groups with more specialized visions.

Quite a few of us understood it to be a Thukker caravan, but now I see that you mean a group of outcasts who take up a Thukker-like existence.

I would challenge that bifurcation with this question: Is there a fundamental difference between a group of outcasts who take up a Thukker-like existence and a Thukker caravan?  Temper your answer with the understanding that such a group of outcasts would naturally include many Thukkers.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: orange on 02 Aug 2012, 00:05
Potential Kink - PvP

While most activities can be done without the use of voice comms, much of Eve's PvP relies on Voice Comms; it may break the immersion for some.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 02 Aug 2012, 05:31
Yea, there's some necessary SoDB that has to come with voice comms.  No good way around that though.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 02 Aug 2012, 09:45
I think it best to attempt any project of this sort from a single launching point.  Frankly, I think the project likely to fail if it fractures into smaller groups with more specialized visions.

Then some of the restrictions would have to be considered. Constraints breed creativity, of course, but they would need to be balanced. (I'll do my best to be there, but Saturdays are unpredictable for me because the family sometimes wants to do stuff then.)

Quote
Quite a few of us understood it to be a Thukker caravan, but now I see that you mean a group of outcasts who take up a Thukker-like existence.

I would challenge that bifurcation with this question: Is there a fundamental difference between a group of outcasts who take up a Thukker-like existence and a Thukker caravan?  Temper your answer with the understanding that such a group of outcasts would naturally include many Thukkers.

Yes, because while the Thukkers take just about anybody, that's not to say that they don't have a culture. Thukkers may be independent-minded but there's still a tribal structure in place with all that that implies. See the Thukker news archive (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=utype&tyid=2&cid=500015) for more on that. Of course, linkages and parallels exist, but generally, the Thukkers adopt some outcasts into their tribe but that doesn't mean that they then take on all the characteristics of full-on exiles.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 02 Aug 2012, 10:50
Yes, because while the Thukkers take just about anybody, that's not to say that they don't have a culture. Thukkers may be independent-minded but there's still a tribal structure in place with all that that implies. See the Thukker news archive (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=utype&tyid=2&cid=500015) for more on that. Of course, linkages and parallels exist, but generally, the Thukkers adopt some outcasts into their tribe but that doesn't mean that they then take on all the characteristics of full-on exiles.

I agree.  The Thukkers have a distinct culture.  Based on your answer, I gather that the difference in visions lies in the expectation of a tribal theme/structure with Thukker trappings vice a structure/theme that is not explicitly tribal.  If you allow that the participating characters come from widely varied backgrounds (rather than an extant tribal community or heritage), is the latter (not-explicitly-tribal) vision not the more applicable one to this purpose?  Moreover, is it not a better choice in general because it does not necessarily impose the tribal cultural elements and their implications on any one participant unless they desire them?

[spoiler]And forgive me for being confused at your confusion, but I think I was pretty clear about things in the OP:

Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX] is an alt roleplay challenge corporation with a Minmatar theme, having IC connections to and parallels with the Thukker tribe and their MO.  ...  We will form a community of expatriates and exiles, forever on the move, and see how far the journey takes us.

Connections to and parallels with =/= closely identifying with or membership within.  If I left that unclear somehow, that's on me.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 02 Aug 2012, 10:57
I'm certainly not saying you're doing it wrong or anything (which would be meaningless for all sorts of reasons here, heh). And the confusion is my fault, definitely. Perhaps I was seeing what I wanted to see, that's all. :)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Reyd Karris on 02 Aug 2012, 12:35
Conspiracy theorist who flat out believes the Republic government is a front for an alien invasion.
Where do I sign up?  :D
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: orange on 02 Aug 2012, 20:13
Taking another look at it; would expanding the PvE opportunities to include the non-Pirate null-sec factions help to make it a more "exiles" feel?

Thukkers, Syndicate, ORE, Mordu's Legion?
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ember Vykos on 02 Aug 2012, 23:04
Think I'll give it a shot. Gonna make an alt and work on a story.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Daniel LSiata on 03 Aug 2012, 08:41
Going to see if I can find an alt slot. If so, I will most certainly be throwing someone in for the ride.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Logan Fyreite on 03 Aug 2012, 10:13
Ken,

Your OP says one thing but then you are arguing a second with your statement below
I would challenge that bifurcation with this question: Is there a fundamental difference between a group of outcasts who take up a Thukker-like existence and a Thukker caravan?  Temper your answer with the understanding that such a group of outcasts would naturally include many Thukkers.
Thukkers thus far have been mis-identified as "outcasts" and are instead Gypsies or Nomad's, I tend to associate them with european Gypsies pre-WW1. To be completely clear, Thukker are a Tribal society even more intense and extreme than their planet bound brethren. Members of their society are trained to fill multiple roles and theirs is a society where each person must absolutely trust and rely on the other members of their clan. They still partake in the Voluval ceremony and all that it entails. In fact, they do "extreme" Voluval if you will.

"For instance, many Thukker feel the Voluval ceremony, central to the personal identity of most Minmatar, should be administered only in space. Some extreme interpretations require the ritual to be performed in vac-suits, so strong is the Thukker affinity for the void."
Source (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4086&tid=3)
I'm thinking semi-transparent Vac suits for these ceremonies.

Thukker's have no more affinity for outcasts than the rest of minmatar society, maybe even less. Especially people with bad Voluval marks. Bad Voluval marks tend to indicate mental instability or other "real" problems with the person. Not just idle marks, or incorrect marks. These marks have a stigma because of the people who have had them before. Someone like this would be considered a liability in Minmatar and Thukker society and not trusted enough to be useful and if you aren't useful, and trusted then you don't stick around for long.

Ken I am glad you have clarified your stance on your caravan. I wish you luck.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 03 Aug 2012, 13:50
Logan said it much better. I think there are some misunderstandings here about what it means to be a Thukker, or at the very least some disagreements on it.

I hope you folks have a great time, and I hope to see you in space. (Still hopeful to attend tomorrow but can't commit until my wife figures out our weekend plans.)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Matariki Rain on 03 Aug 2012, 13:58
I'm with Logan.

But however you work out the justification, the challenge sounds like a lot of fun. As someone who was keen on caravans and Miz's "Thukker deployment" concept I've been wishing I could shuffle some characters to join in.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 03 Aug 2012, 14:51
Ken,

Your OP says one thing but then you are arguing a second with your statement below
I would challenge that bifurcation with this question: Is there a fundamental difference between a group of outcasts who take up a Thukker-like existence and a Thukker caravan?  Temper your answer with the understanding that such a group of outcasts would naturally include many Thukkers.

For what it's worth, that was a question not a statement.  I used it as a rhetorical device to suggest that there is no fundamental difference between a group of outcasts leading a nomadic existence and a Thukker caravan.  I did this in an attempt to persuade Cas that players interested in Thukker roleplay should consider SPOOX a valid place to try that out.  My point about them not being fundamentally different was made mostly with consideration for the associated gameplay (moving about in a caravan-fleet), rather than consideration of the lore.  I understand and have recognized that the Thukker caravans have a strong tribal element.

SPOOX is not a Thukker caravan, nor a pirate organization, nor an orphanage, nor an asylum for the criminally insane.  It is a bit of all of these things and not entirely one or another.  In an earlier post I provided examples of characters that might find a home in such a setting.  Thukkers are among those.

Perhaps this graphic will illustrate better than my words can:

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7749/spooxgraph.png)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Casiella on 03 Aug 2012, 15:04
For what it's worth, that was a question not a statement.  I used it as a rhetorical device to suggest that there is no fundamental difference between a group of outcasts leading a nomadic existence and a Thukker caravan.  I did this in an attempt to persuade Cas that players interested in Thukker roleplay should consider SPOOX a valid place to try that out.  My point about them not being fundamentally different was made mostly with consideration for the associated gameplay (moving about in a caravan-fleet), rather than consideration of the lore.  I understand and have recognized that the Thukker caravans have a strong tribal element.

So when I parse this, I see a few different things. First, when you're making a suggestion, that is more of a statement (though with a bit of attached uncertainty) than a question. And I think a few of us have tried to point out that, yes, there is a "fundamental difference between a group of outcasts leading a nomadic existence and a Thukker caravan." I appreciate and understand your point that you see SPOOX as a place where Thukker pilots could possibly go because it might fit their lifestyle, if not their culture, but the two are certainly not equivalent (as your diagram correctly illustrates).

In other words: the Thukkers are about more than just nomadism, so while there's some overlap, fundamental differences do exist. As somebody else suggested, as long as you're not just doing nomadism but also a home for exiles, widening your net to catch "outcasts" rather than just "Republic outcasts" might go a ways towards making that clear. For example, think about Caldari dissenters / disassociated, Syndicate refugees, Amarrian exiles, all that.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 03 Aug 2012, 15:54
Hmm.  Yes.  I'm thinking the more appropriate suggestive question would have been:

For the purpose of launching a community-wide roleplay project pertaining to a nomadic group living on the periphery of interstellar society, is there a meaningful difference for participating characters/players between a Thukker caravan and a nomadic group that happens to include Thukkers that is substantial enough that Thukker-interested players would pass on the project?

widening your net to catch "outcasts" rather than just "Republic outcasts" might go a ways towards making that clear. For example, think about Caldari dissenters / disassociated, Syndicate refugees, Amarrian exiles, all that.

I agree.  Like all that.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Arnulf Ogunkoya on 03 Aug 2012, 18:26
If you want to limit docking mostly to Thukker stations, would you like me to poke some of our industrial & trader types about making sure there is stuff for you to buy at them?
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Rharcyn Vuld on 03 Aug 2012, 21:04
Hi.

Completely new to EVE and was wondering if I as a Non-alt would be allowed to participate in this challenge? Am almost done with tutorials so if I can get a "maybe" I will start seeking out Thukker stations to run missions for.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Misan on 04 Aug 2012, 07:23
WTB consistent internet connection right now.  :s I need to read this whole thread a little more thoroughly and then I'll throw in some of my thoughts re: Thukker.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 04 Aug 2012, 13:23
Just a reminder, the brainstorming session/meeting about the SPOOX project will start in ~40 minutes in the Kindred Mix channel.  The meeting is OOC.  Come as a main character rather than a SPOOX alt.

Edit:  The meeting has just concluded.  I appreciate everyone's attendance and input.  It was very productive.  A complete transcript is posted below for those who were unable to make it:

[spoiler]
---------------------------------------------------------------

  Channel ID:      -32493200
  Channel Name:    Kindred Mix
  Listener:        Hoshisuuvi
  Session started: 2012.08.04 19:53:22
---------------------------------------------------------------

 [ 2012.08.04 19:53:22 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD: We, who have no voice, find our home in the silence between the stars.((This is the in-character public channel of the Kindred of Scarecrows.  It is a voice or thought-to-voice only channel operating on borrowed bandwidth out of Station: Agtver VI and does not have a VR suite of any kind.))
 [ 2012.08.04 19:53:22 ] Dex Nederland > Rain can at least be here IC; Dex can't come near the place
 [ 2012.08.04 19:53:37 ] Matariki Rain > ^
 [ 2012.08.04 19:53:58 ] Dex Nederland > Or Hoshisuuvi for that matter - Ken's main?
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:03 ] Dex Nederland > :P
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:09 ] Hoshisuuvi > Good news everyone!
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:18 ] Hoshisuuvi > /slash: /farnsworth
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:19 ] Matariki Rain > /emote has not had enough sleep, aches, and is tempted to go back to bed and skip training today. :P
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:23 ] Hoshisuuvi > ./farnsworth
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:31 ] Matariki Rain > Hello there.
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:38 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Hi
 [ 2012.08.04 19:54:56 ] Dex Nederland > MSL is on course?
 [ 2012.08.04 19:55:07 ] Hoshisuuvi > Give it about five more minutes in case there are any late comers
 [ 2012.08.04 19:55:16 ] Hoshisuuvi > afaik it is
 [ 2012.08.04 19:55:32 ] Dex Nederland > It is
 [ 2012.08.04 19:55:47 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Hoshisuuvi, you're the driving force behind this?
 [ 2012.08.04 19:55:47 ] Hoshisuuvi > o/ Syagrius
 [ 2012.08.04 19:55:57 ] James Syagrius > Hello o/
 [ 2012.08.04 19:55:59 ] Hoshisuuvi > Yes Vuld, I'm Ken.
 [ 2012.08.04 19:56:08 ] Hoshisuuvi > Cas, glad to see you could be here
 [ 2012.08.04 19:56:12 ] Dex Nederland > The fabled Ken!
 [ 2012.08.04 19:56:14 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Didn't see an answer on thread, but am I allowed to participate even if this char. is my main? I just started playing the game
 [ 2012.08.04 19:56:35 ] Hoshisuuvi > Yea, I don't see why not.  Something we can discuss too.
 [ 2012.08.04 19:56:48 ] Rharcyn Vuld > alright, afk for 2 minutes before meeting starts then
 [ 2012.08.04 19:56:55 ] Hoshisuuvi > k
 [ 2012.08.04 19:57:45 ] Dex Nederland > I think it would be a great place for newer RPers to learn the game.  We have a ton of experience and knowledge about Eve, which we can impart
 [ 2012.08.04 19:58:27 ] Matariki Rain > I think it's a great idea. I'm concerned about timezone density and my own lack of free slots just now.
 [ 2012.08.04 19:59:07 ] Dex Nederland > The TZ density is always a challenge
 [ 2012.08.04 19:59:50 ] Rharcyn Vuld > back
 [ 2012.08.04 19:59:58 ] Rharcyn Vuld > unemployed so I can play whenever more or less
 [ 2012.08.04 20:00:06 ] Hoshisuuvi > :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:00:12 ] Hoshisuuvi > We'll get started in 1 min.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:00:59 ] Dex Nederland > Now you are just late ;)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:01:09 ] Hoshisuuvi > fashionably
 [ 2012.08.04 20:01:23 ] Hoshisuuvi > Alright, let's do this.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:01:28 ] Hoshisuuvi > First off, I would like to start by thanking everyone who was able to make it to this little meeting.  I plan for this to run about an hour max and I will post the log to Backstage in the SPOOX corp thread.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:01:32 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Is the Thrasher a suitable ship to be using or should I stick to my rifter?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:01:42 ] Rharcyn Vuld > /emote shuts up
 [ 2012.08.04 20:01:54 ] Hoshisuuvi > We'll get to that Vuld, maybe. :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:01:54 ] Hoshisuuvi > As you may know, I am Ken.  Len Braid, founder of SPOOX, is an alt of mine.  SPOOX is based on an idea I had for a nomadic corp of low-SP characters.  I created Len to serve as an example of such a character.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:02:16 ] Hoshisuuvi > For me, however, this project is really still at the concept stage.  I am a director in Wiyrkomi Honor Guard and really enjoy FW and my corpmates there.  If/when we go live with SPOOX, I don't know how much of an active role I'll play in it.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:02:28 ] Hoshisuuvi > Based on the response to the SPOOX corp thread on Backstage, I think there is a place for a project like this in the community.  And if we're going to do it right, we ought to hammer out some of the details as a community.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:02:37 ] Horatius Caul > (I'm in the channel but mostly afk so may not contribute much, sorry.)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:02:41 ] Hoshisuuvi > Thus, this meeting...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:02:47 ] Hoshisuuvi > np, Horatius
 [ 2012.08.04 20:02:55 ] Hoshisuuvi > The agenda has three points.  I'd like to keep discussion on each to around 20 minutes or less.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:03:03 ] Dex Nederland > ok
 [ 2012.08.04 20:03:20 ] Hoshisuuvi > The first point of discussion... "Scoundrels and outcasts vs. tribals and Thukkers; can't they just get along?"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:03:26 ] Hoshisuuvi > ...or "Who gives a Thuk?"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:03:39 ] Hoshisuuvi > I'd like to discuss the character of the Kindred of Scarecrows caravan.  Where does it fall among the tribal influences of the Republic, the pirate states, and the 'outcasts' of New Eden.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:03:56 ] Rharcyn Vuld > /emote raises hand
 [ 2012.08.04 20:04:14 ] Hoshisuuvi > My thought on the matter are summed up in this image: http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7749/spooxgraph.png
 [ 2012.08.04 20:04:21 ] Hoshisuuvi > But yea, Vuld please jump right in.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:04:25 ] Rharcyn Vuld > I liked the graph you posted in the thread, gives us loads of room to determine backgrounds
 [ 2012.08.04 20:04:47 ] Rharcyn Vuld > /emote was still typing when link was posting, sorry.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:04:54 ] Matariki Rain > What are the key things that you want as part of the challenge? I'd suggest looking at those and then joining them up. Nomadic, for instance. And some reason to dock only at Thukker stations, yes?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:04:55 ] Horatius Caul > Agreed. My alt will probably be an actual medium-bad mark though
 [ 2012.08.04 20:05:01 ] Rogue Integer > The problem as I see it is that Thukkers plus Minmatar outcasts (Voluval stuff) don't mix well.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:05:19 ] Rogue Integer > And if you're going for "lost boys" overall, then "docking only at Thukker" may not make sense.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:05:33 ] Horatius Caul > I think the Thukker Tribe might accept the group, but not integrate with it
 [ 2012.08.04 20:05:59 ] Rogue Integer > Thukkers are heavily into the Voluval meanings. That means srs problems with outcasts.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:06:07 ] Horatius Caul > possibly
 [ 2012.08.04 20:06:27 ] Rogue Integer > Interested in Mata's thoughts on that, though. She's like the Mataripedia.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:06:37 ] Hoshisuuvi > I wonder who, if anyone, would do business with a caravan of outcasts?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:06:44 ] Matariki Rain > /emote snorts.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:06:51 ] Horatius Caul > we could have something where each character picks one corp/faction it can interact with, and that person gets to be liaison for the group in those cases
 [ 2012.08.04 20:06:51 ] Dex Nederland > What if the Thukkers are the "operational" example of how the group operates?  A bunch of capsuleers uninterested in the politics of the Republic, more interested in their own survival in the harsh new reality they live in?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:07:11 ] Matariki Rain > Ken, I think it comes back to what you mean by "outcasts".
 [ 2012.08.04 20:07:17 ] Hoshisuuvi > I like the liaison thing, Caul.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:07:50 ] Hoshisuuvi > Well, when I first thought of it, I based the idea on the PF like about the less-than-desirable Voluval marks.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:07:55 ] Matariki Rain > There's lots of scope for unconnected, dissociated people around the Republic. The Returned, the clanless, those who just don't fit in.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:07:57 ] Hoshisuuvi > Specifically: "In recent years, it has become common for those with these marks to choose a life of exile over the burden of bearing their shame amongst their kin."
 [ 2012.08.04 20:08:28 ] Hoshisuuvi > Mmhmm, the "lost boys", as Cas puts it.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:08:59 ] Matariki Rain > And that's problematic because we don't know what "exile" means normally. Is it "just" moving away from your clan, or something more? Why not just go to the Fed?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:09:07 ] Horatius Caul > afk again
 [ 2012.08.04 20:09:17 ] Matariki Rain > I can imagine a group of general misfits deciding to try out their idea of the Thukker lifestyle, even if they don't necessarily know what it involves.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:09:35 ] Inara Subaka > exile or exiled?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:09:49 ] Matariki Rain > It's not clear, Inaka.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:10:04 ] Matariki Rain > I can even imagine them making an arbitrary rules about Thukker-only docking as a way to be staunch.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:10:17 ] Matariki Rain > I'm not clear whether that would be satisfying enough.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:10:38 ] Hoshisuuvi > In the interest of trying out the nomadic concept, I think we'd have to accept some SoDB.  Bunch of :lost boys: capsuleers find each other on the GalNet and decide to have a go of it in a caravan?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:10:57 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Okay just to clarify, the group will consists not only of "outcasts" but also of people that have other reasons to shun republic (or federal) space?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:10:57 ] Hoshisuuvi > What do you mean by satisfying enough?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:10:59 ] Rogue Integer > SoDB?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:11:01 ] Hoshisuuvi > As in, hard enough?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:11:05 ] Hoshisuuvi > Suspension of disbelief.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:11:09 ] James Syagrius > But they are capsuleers so no mater how marginalised someone somewhere would do business with them.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:11:09 ] Rogue Integer > thx
 [ 2012.08.04 20:11:47 ] Matariki Rain > (I also have quite a bit of sympathy for Ken's OOC notion that the tribes are modern constructs, which does kinda make the "what's the difference between a tribe of Thukkers and a Thukker tribe?" question more poignant.)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:12:27 ] Hoshisuuvi > I wonder, would banding together and striking out in a caravan constitute the formation of a new tribe?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:12:59 ] Hoshisuuvi > Could the caravan evolve its own tribal structure, as I imagine the original Thukker caravans did when they set out for the Wildlands?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:13:19 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Not in the beginning, but if the caravan survived through the years it would probably develop that wy
 [ 2012.08.04 20:13:21 ] Rharcyn Vuld > way
 [ 2012.08.04 20:14:10 ] Inara Subaka > Depends, most of the other tribes seem to be based on racial/ethnic qualities/divisions; where the Thukker tribe seems to be more about ideology (from what I've read)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:14:38 ] Hoshisuuvi > Exactly.  There is definitely a culture unique to the Thukker caravans.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:14:44 ] Inara Subaka > I think it'd be... ambitious to say this is the creation of a whole new tribe though
 [ 2012.08.04 20:15:04 ] Hoshisuuvi > Well "tribe".
 [ 2012.08.04 20:15:10 ] Rogue Integer > There are ethnic Thukkers
 [ 2012.08.04 20:15:10 ] Hoshisuuvi > Call it a clan or whatever is appropriate.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:15:15 ] Dex Nederland > Perhaps it can simply be a group of Matari capsuleers (of similar age) who band together for their own survival.  A desire to not strike at the world alone and rely on others for support...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:15:20 ] Rogue Integer > They just take in new ones who also become Thukkers
 [ 2012.08.04 20:15:42 ] Hoshisuuvi > Can it not work the other way, Cas?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:16:10 ] Matariki Rain > I expect lots of experiments in clan-formation and different types of social groups. I also have a term for a cross-clan or cross-tribe group that's set up for a purpose, as a warband or project group: we call it a kena.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:16:26 ] Matariki Rain > Lutinari Syndicate is a kena.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:16:30 ] Hoshisuuvi > Marvelous.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:16:41 ] Rogue Integer > Hoshi, yes, my point is that you should be clear in which direction you mean this.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:16:53 ] Rogue Integer > If you mean "a group of capsuleers that some Thukkers choose to join", cool
 [ 2012.08.04 20:17:15 ] Rogue Integer > If you mean "a group of Thukkers that take in others including those with those bad marks", then you have more RP difficulty
 [ 2012.08.04 20:17:20 ] Karmilla Strife > That was sort of my impression of the idea
 [ 2012.08.04 20:17:22 ] Hoshisuuvi > Right.  Yea, I think we're pretty clear I mean the former at this point.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:17:31 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Indeed
 [ 2012.08.04 20:17:42 ] Rogue Integer > Right, I think that was an initial point of confusion for a number of us :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:17:43 ] Hoshisuuvi > My hope was to make the RP fairly easy to approach.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:17:57 ] Rogue Integer > Especially with the idea of "only docking in Thukker stations", or at least in highsec
 [ 2012.08.04 20:18:07 ] Hoshisuuvi > Yea, gotcha.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:18:09 ] Rogue Integer > I was not clear on the IC motivation for that (OOC, though, yes, I get :P )
 [ 2012.08.04 20:18:14 ] Hoshisuuvi > We'll get into that on the next point.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:18:35 ] Hoshisuuvi > At first my thought was simply that the Thukkers, of any of the tribes, would be the most likely to do business with a group of :lost boys:
 [ 2012.08.04 20:18:44 ] Hoshisuuvi > Plus, gameplay constraints for added fun.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:18:45 ] Dex Nederland > Perhaps we can adjust the "only docking in Thukker stations" in high sec to be only docking in stations belonging to 0.0 factions in high sec
 [ 2012.08.04 20:18:54 ] Dex Nederland > Granted this means only Thukker I am pretty sure
 [ 2012.08.04 20:19:16 ] Hoshisuuvi > Well, I think this was actually a productive discussion.  Some good things to roll around in the head idea-wise.  Let's proceed to agenda point two.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:19:27 ] Dex Nederland > Entities that don't care about local laws or customs
 [ 2012.08.04 20:19:56 ] Hoshisuuvi > Second up is "Family Fun Time in the Far Reaches"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:20:05 ] Hoshisuuvi > ... or "Me ma still needs a caravan"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:20:14 ] Hoshisuuvi > I'd like to brainstorm and discuss fun activities for a nomadic corp of low-SP roleplay characters.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:20:40 ] Hoshisuuvi > Including covering the rules and restrictions that might be imposed to guide gameplay.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:21:47 ] Dex Nederland > The corp is about challenges right?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:22:15 ] Inara Subaka > lowsec industry?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:22:25 ] Hoshisuuvi > Yes.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:22:39 ] Dex Nederland > Not just low-sec industry, but avoiding use of market hubs
 [ 2012.08.04 20:22:43 ] Matariki Rain > Question: will you be trying to play together, or will there be an assumption that asynchronous play is okay and should be supported? If some peopel won't be around together, what tools will there be for community and info-sharing? Forum? Other?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:23:19 ] Hoshisuuvi > Admin and coordination is really the third point on the docket.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:23:40 ] Hoshisuuvi > Horatius Caul, I believe, floated the idea of scheduling specific activity types for specific days of the week.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:23:49 ] Hoshisuuvi > Monday Night Mining, T1 Tuesdays, Thukker Thursdays, etc.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:24:17 ] Hoshisuuvi > I'm also curious what a reasonable migration cycle would be in your opinion.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:24:31 ] Hoshisuuvi > Move regions weekly?  Biweekly?  Monthly?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:24:54 ] Dex Nederland > Monthly at the fastest; these are alts remember
 [ 2012.08.04 20:25:05 ] Karmilla Strife > especially if it's a regional change
 [ 2012.08.04 20:25:15 ] James Syagrius > /emote nods.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:25:29 ] Dex Nederland > Or perhaps that is part of the schedule - each day a new system?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:25:55 ] Hoshisuuvi > Well, migration doesn't have to me perpetual movement.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:26:11 ] James Syagrius > Mobility within the region being another matter as individuals may by necessity need to move to find resources.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:26:13 ] Dex Nederland > Have a planned route through a region that takes some time, but each day the "home system" moves forward one
 [ 2012.08.04 20:26:26 ] Hoshisuuvi > That is interesting, dex...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:26:32 ] Karmilla Strife > actually yeah
 [ 2012.08.04 20:26:37 ] Hoshisuuvi > But I agree with Mata that we have to assume asynchronous play.  The caravan would string out, no?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:26:53 ] Dex Nederland > Ya, but only a few jumps one way or another
 [ 2012.08.04 20:26:53 ] Matariki Rain > Depending on what you're doing, there might be a "seasonal" pattern to things. One constellation might have Thukker agents that the people can use already. Another might have good mining.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:27:33 ] Matariki Rain > If you're looking at industry there will be ties to research times, and those could be quite long if you're starting with public slots.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:27:50 ] James Syagrius > I suppose it also matters how centralized you want the effort to be.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:27:56 ] Matariki Rain > But broadcast your seeds and come back when they've grown.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:27:58 ] Inara Subaka > aye, hit a region... but within the region people function as necessary; then work together to move things further on to the next region
 [ 2012.08.04 20:28:09 ] Dex Nederland > Also, based on the CSM discussions it might change with starbases operate/are useful
 [ 2012.08.04 20:28:26 ] Rogue Integer > Starbases seem antithetical for this type of nomadism
 [ 2012.08.04 20:28:34 ] Hoshisuuvi > I haven't followed the CSM points recently, but I agree with Cas.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:28:36 ] Matariki Rain > There are good reasons for moving a fleet of non-cloaked ships through lowsec together.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:28:41 ] Hoshisuuvi > POSs just don't seem to fit.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:28:52 ] Dex Nederland > At the moment yes; but there is talk of POSs getting jump drives
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:00 ] Rogue Integer > If you need research slots, NPC null usually has them (at least, it did, dunno about now)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:16 ] Matariki Rain > i like the idea of arriving in system and setting up a POS as being like pitching a big tent.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:24 ] Matariki Rain > And sitting around telling stories and such while you do it.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:27 ] Inara Subaka > ↑
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:34 ] Rogue Integer > And frankly, if you're taking alts, then you'll want to think heavily about whether the corp should have assets that a malicious player could steal.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:42 ] Hoshisuuvi > Ah, yea...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:43 ] Matariki Rain > But I imagine you'd need a masochist to want to do that regularly. :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:55 ] Rogue Integer > :anchoring:
 [ 2012.08.04 20:29:58 ] Hoshisuuvi > How about selecting a target constellation for the caravan...  The corp moves there and then spreads out within the constellation to do what it does, gathering at a temporary 'standing ground'.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:30:03 ] Matariki Rain > That, too.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:30:20 ] Inara Subaka > constellation would probably be better; since it's going to be a 'small group'
 [ 2012.08.04 20:30:23 ] Hoshisuuvi > This would be supported by use of the Constellation channels as regular comms.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:30:39 ] Inara Subaka > there's... a constellation chat?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:30:44 ] Rogue Integer > yeah
 [ 2012.08.04 20:30:49 ] Dex Nederland > Someone in a region with a solid market?  What is the cost of a Minmatar Control Tower Small?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:30:54 ] Rogue Integer > when you create a new character, it's in there by default
 [ 2012.08.04 20:31:06 ] Rogue Integer > 70m in sinq, Dex
 [ 2012.08.04 20:31:08 ] Karmilla Strife > about 70mil in amarr
 [ 2012.08.04 20:31:13 ] Hoshisuuvi > 112m in Black Rise :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:31:20 ] Matariki Rain > 60-65m in Metro.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:31:44 ] Dex Nederland > k, so all told the Tower is not that expensive as a rovering base.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:31:51 ] Inara Subaka > aye
 [ 2012.08.04 20:32:06 ] Hoshisuuvi > Not bad at all really, but not much use in Hi-sec...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:32:13 ] Hoshisuuvi > Standings would be a problem, no?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:32:18 ] Dex Nederland > Probably total the Small Tower comes in at less than a fully fitted Battleship
 [ 2012.08.04 20:32:19 ] Rharcyn Vuld > 75m in rens
 [ 2012.08.04 20:32:50 ] Inara Subaka > Hoshi: standigns are only a problem in >0.3
 [ 2012.08.04 20:32:57 ] James Syagrius > /emote does fuel consumpstion math out of habit. :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:33:03 ] Hoshisuuvi > Anchoring in low or NPC null would invite grief.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:33:10 ] Inara Subaka > 0.1-0.3 doesn't require a charter
 [ 2012.08.04 20:33:32 ] Inara Subaka > lowsec is fine; most people won't give a shit unless we're squating in Omam on the Dyspro moon
 [ 2012.08.04 20:33:38 ] Dex Nederland > I will have to sit down and figure out what it can support - but a starting goal affording the Camp might not be a bad idea
 [ 2012.08.04 20:33:50 ] Matariki Rain > Small towers are fragile, though.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:34:07 ] Matariki Rain > Maybe map out Thukker stations vs sec vs warzone.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:34:25 ] Inara Subaka > aye, and easily replaced if someone decides to jump it
 [ 2012.08.04 20:34:37 ] Hoshisuuvi > Easily for established characters.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:34:51 ] Matariki Rain > Would you defend it? Could you? Could you wear the cost, with new characters?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:34:58 ] James Syagrius > If were outcast we should be used to getting rolled.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:35:10 ] Hoshisuuvi > It's worth considering, despite the challenges.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:35:16 ] Hoshisuuvi > That is the point, after all, I suppose :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:35:22 ] Karmilla Strife > yeah, having tried the early rules for the challenge. Getting ammo and the modules you want is hard.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:35:34 ] Matariki Rain > I suspect it'll turn out to be more hassle than it's worth, but it's an idea I poke at. I do like the idea of the caravan coming to a system and setting up, with chat in local and all.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:35:44 ] Karmilla Strife > muche less pos parts, fuel, and then having the storage to transport it and your ships.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:35:45 ] Horatius Caul > shouldn't be once we have industry going
 [ 2012.08.04 20:35:59 ] Horatius Caul > my alt will focus on T1 production
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:09 ] Hoshisuuvi > Thoughts on IC activities for the caravan?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:18 ] Hoshisuuvi > I'm not a Minmatar expert by any stretch of the imagination.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:19 ] Horatius Caul > flipping people off
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:27 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Leurtmar <- Thukker station with manufacturing slots for ammo
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:27 ] Horatius Caul > :3
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:27 ] Hoshisuuvi > Well, I'm thinking internal channel RP type stuff.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:36 ] Karmilla Strife > trying to barter in local or constellation chat
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:45 ] Dex Nederland > Blueprints...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:36:47 ] Horatius Caul > hehe, barter would be fun
 [ 2012.08.04 20:37:04 ] Hoshisuuvi > I like the idea of trying to flag someone down to go buy something from Rens for the caravan and move it to a Thukker station.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:37:16 ] Horatius Caul > yeah
 [ 2012.08.04 20:37:21 ] Hoshisuuvi > Or just buying remote and using courier contracts.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:37:23 ] Inara Subaka > no using the markets unless you have to, do trade with folks?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:37:41 ] Hoshisuuvi > Bug newbies outside starter stations to run module/ammo courier contracts maybe?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:38:02 ] Inara Subaka > "Hey, I need some of that fancy Fleet Ammo, here's a bunch more of the regular stuff in exchange"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:38:02 ] Hoshisuuvi > That would be extra restrictive, but could be really fun Inara.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:38:35 ] Hoshisuuvi > "The markets are wiretapped."
 [ 2012.08.04 20:38:41 ] Hoshisuuvi > "We... prefer to deal off-line."
 [ 2012.08.04 20:38:45 ] Hoshisuuvi > "How about a trade, pilot?"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:38:50 ] Horatius Caul > "fuck concord!"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:39:08 ] Horatius Caul > :tinfoil:
 [ 2012.08.04 20:39:25 ] Dex Nederland > So, when running missions for Thukkers, cool to dock at non-Thukker stations?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:39:38 ] Hoshisuuvi > I suppose you'd have to if the mission required it.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:39:38 ] Dex Nederland > For things like Courier contracts
 [ 2012.08.04 20:39:49 ] Hoshisuuvi > "Tribe business.  Let us in."
 [ 2012.08.04 20:40:00 ] Inara Subaka > yeah
 [ 2012.08.04 20:40:41 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Way I see it, which, granted, could be wrong, is that if you are RP'ing someone with a "bad" mark you wouldn't be running missions in the first place?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:40:44 ] Matariki Rain > "The true nature of our people is to be free. The Republic caved and compromised when it joined CONCORD. The Thukkers kept disctinct, and even though they've now chosen to collaborate, it's on their own terms."
 [ 2012.08.04 20:40:51 ] Matariki Rain > "We want a future for our kind that's more like the Thukker way."
 [ 2012.08.04 20:40:52 ] Matariki Rain > ??
 [ 2012.08.04 20:41:02 ] Rharcyn Vuld > ^^Like
 [ 2012.08.04 20:41:06 ] Hoshisuuvi > +1
 [ 2012.08.04 20:41:11 ] Horatius Caul > perhaps
 [ 2012.08.04 20:41:11 ] Hoshisuuvi > Alright, some really good points covered here.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:41:20 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Migrant Fleet a'la EVE
 [ 2012.08.04 20:41:32 ] Hoshisuuvi > Unless someone is sitting on something, let's move to agenda point number three...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:41:50 ] Inara Subaka > Vuld: bad marks or no marks; perhaps someone who was somehow isolated from getting their mark and people look at them weird for not having a mark
 [ 2012.08.04 20:42:01 ] Dex Nederland > So, how about to not make our lives horribly difficult, a few characters are determined to be undescriptive enough to deal with the SCC & empires?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:42:20 ] Horatius Caul > the voluval article on the wiki says there are quite a lot of clans that don't practice voluval. doesn't seem to ostracise them
 [ 2012.08.04 20:42:23 ] Hoshisuuvi > An appointed liaison, ala Horatius earlier suggestion?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:42:37 ] Inara Subaka > that'd work; the 'brokers' of the tribe?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:42:49 ] Hoshisuuvi > So and so is on good terms with the Gallente in Constellation X, he can dock there, etc.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:42:59 ] Dex Nederland > Exactly
 [ 2012.08.04 20:43:03 ] Rharcyn Vuld > More of a "If you choose to RP someone with a Mark you know wont go to stations, have someone else do it for you?"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:43:14 ] Matariki Rain > Dex, where? "the Voluval is a rite of passage practiced by nearly all sub-clans of all tribes in the Republic"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:43:15 ] Dex Nederland > Perhaps the role rotates depending on where we are
 [ 2012.08.04 20:43:26 ] Hoshisuuvi > I like that.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:43:27 ] Horatius Caul > *nearly*
 [ 2012.08.04 20:43:32 ] James Syagrius > Along that line, as mentioned in the BS thread, the group will be open to other besides folks with "bad" marks?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:43:35 ] Hoshisuuvi > Not well versed enough to speak on the Voluval.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:44:01 ] Dex Nederland > What James said - there are those, like Len, who aren't necessarily marked at all
 [ 2012.08.04 20:44:20 ] Hoshisuuvi > Well, he has the Scarecrow, but he's a Gallente in Matari clothing.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:44:50 ] James Syagrius > Like religious outcasts, lots of them in the Republic since the Emancipation.  Or would that line be to distracting to group cohesion?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:44:58 ] Horatius Caul > whichever recruitment policy we go with, I'd still like to keep things minnie
 [ 2012.08.04 20:45:27 ] Hoshisuuvi > I think Min-focused is good, but definitely open to the broader category of :lost boys:, not just those with ill marks.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:46:02 ] Dex Nederland > I think having Brokers/Traders/Liasons, is a good idea
 [ 2012.08.04 20:46:08 ] Hoshisuuvi > Religious reasons, criminal reasons, poltiical reasons, any number of reasons why you might not want to be part of mainstream society and go on a space walkabout.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:46:16 ] Hoshisuuvi > Very solid points here.  In the interest of brevity, let's proceed to agenda point three...
 [ 2012.08.04 20:46:38 ] Hoshisuuvi > "A Khal who cannot ride is no Khal at all"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:46:43 ] Hoshisuuvi > I'd like to discuss the requisite administrative structure for the corp and identify volunteers for leadership and coordination roles.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:47:12 ] Hoshisuuvi > As Mata pointed out earlier, we're looking at asynchronous play times and alt activity levels.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:47:34 ] Matariki Rain > Let's list what needs to happen and what might be nice.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:47:35 ] Dex Nederland > For a Forum - why not use the Eve Online Corp forum?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:47:41 ] Matariki Rain > Recruitment processing: Ken?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:47:57 ] Hoshisuuvi > Natural fit, I've got the CEO character.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:48:04 ] Horatius Caul > I'm currently unemployed and very much interested, so I'd be up for taking on industrial stuff
 [ 2012.08.04 20:48:04 ] Matariki Rain > I'd like to see people using the EVE forum just to see what it's like.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:48:10 ] Hoshisuuvi > Me too.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:48:24 ] Horatius Caul > aye
 [ 2012.08.04 20:48:31 ] Inara Subaka > there's a corp section on the EVE forums? You guys are teaching me a lot today
 [ 2012.08.04 20:48:36 ] Hoshisuuvi > Tbh, I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to it.  WHG is a busy place.  I would like to appoint at least two directors.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:48:56 ] Horatius Caul > yeah, you need 10+ characters to activate the forum though
 [ 2012.08.04 20:49:08 ] Matariki Rain > Decisions about when and where to move: Ken's char under advisement from corp memebers? A topic of constant low-level discussion? "The asteroids are plentiful in Domain this month..."?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:49:09 ] Dex Nederland > I would appreciate being a "grunt" since I have LDIS to run
 [ 2012.08.04 20:49:24 ] Dex Nederland > I like the constant discussion idea
 [ 2012.08.04 20:49:32 ] Horatius Caul > I'd be okay with directorship
 [ 2012.08.04 20:49:48 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Have the time to do more but I have f*** all knowledge about the game or anything relevant to help out, sorry :(
 [ 2012.08.04 20:49:54 ] Hoshisuuvi > If you're really in LFC mode, Horatius, I would love to have you in a leading role.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:49:57 ] Dex Nederland > Perhaps we should dive into using the tools that come with Eve and avoid building out third-party tools?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:15 ] Horatius Caul > Yup. Not much going on with Kitzless really
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:19 ] Inara Subaka > I'm currently job hunting, and Inara is... content, so I can do stuff
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:26 ] Inara Subaka > ™
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:29 ] Hoshisuuvi > :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:43 ] Hoshisuuvi > In-game calendar, in-game mail, corp boards on EVE-O forums.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:49 ] Horatius Caul > yeah
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:50 ] Hoshisuuvi > There is a lot at our disposal without having to set up external things.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:50:56 ] Dex Nederland > It is kind of said to hear how many of us are currently in the job market ;)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:51:04 ] Horatius Caul > :<
 [ 2012.08.04 20:51:17 ] Horatius Caul > we should start a company :P
 [ 2012.08.04 20:51:31 ] Hoshisuuvi > :3
 [ 2012.08.04 20:51:45 ] Rharcyn Vuld > If I can work from home I'm in
 [ 2012.08.04 20:52:20 ] Dex Nederland > Are we going to have active IC recruitment?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:52:25 ] Rharcyn Vuld > Hoshisuuvi I am willing to help out where I can with what I can until I learn the game better.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:52:36 ] Hoshisuuvi > Awesome, Vuld.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:52:45 ] Hoshisuuvi > Active recruitment as in an advert seems reasonable.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:52:47 ] Valdezi > o/
 [ 2012.08.04 20:52:56 ] Hoshisuuvi > Hey Mammal o/
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:03 ] Valdezi > Sorry I'm late, slept in
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:04 ] Inara Subaka > i... wouldn't do active recruitment, but if you see someone who's an 'outcast' catch their attention?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:06 ] Dex Nederland > Advert cost ISK
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:25 ] Hoshisuuvi > I think if we're floating around in constellations doing strange things, attention will be paid.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:26 ] Horatius Caul > adverts are CONCORD. :grr:
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:33 ] Matariki Rain > :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:35 ] James Syagrius > Ohh dear he is here ;)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:36 ] Hoshisuuvi > You might just get some recruits from the strangeness of the interaction.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:53:52 ] Inara Subaka > true
 [ 2012.08.04 20:54:09 ] Inara Subaka > and, bringing in folks may be useful for interacting with other entities
 [ 2012.08.04 20:54:09 ] Dex Nederland > hehe, having to interact with CONCORD, the prime factions is punishment!
 [ 2012.08.04 20:54:31 ] Horatius Caul > ironic, considering we just decided to use the forums, email and calendar they provide
 [ 2012.08.04 20:54:35 ] Horatius Caul > ;)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:54:36 ] Hoshisuuvi > XD
 [ 2012.08.04 20:54:50 ] Matariki Rain > Wht's the thinking on IGS? I think it's okay to use that tool of CONCORD for useful-enough reasons.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:54:53 ] Dex Nederland > Ya, I suppose we should use it
 [ 2012.08.04 20:55:28 ] Matariki Rain > Hmmm.... might need to redefine some of these things to keep this consistent. :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:55:30 ] Hoshisuuvi > Personally I would discourage IGS/Summit activity because it's all very :international: but I know some people depend on those venues for their entertainment value.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:55:46 ] Horatius Caul > yeah
 [ 2012.08.04 20:56:02 ] Horatius Caul > more internal and :local: rp than external
 [ 2012.08.04 20:56:11 ] Dex Nederland > Ok, there are a bunch of us - how do we bring our alts together?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:56:28 ] Hoshisuuvi > Via this channel?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:56:33 ] Matariki Rain > I was thinking of leaving messages on Backstage and IGS so people who were interested in this sort of thing could find you. It's likely to be a special interest group, so I'm not too worried.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:01 ] Horatius Caul > rumors among the schools of rogues and ne'er do-wells clumping together
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:03 ] Inara Subaka > yeah, leave a message, then folks who notice (even those not here now) and are interested can get in contact with you
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:22 ] Dex Nederland > Is that enough? Perhaps Len needs to leave a message in the channel about where those interested should go?
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:36 ] Valdezi > That could be cool
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:42 ] Valdezi > Like a pilgrimage.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:50 ] James Syagrius > :)
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:51 ] Hoshisuuvi > He could do that.  One big 'f-you' to the cluster before he tries to go off the grid.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:57:54 ] Rogue Integer > Backstage doesn't have an IC place, though
 [ 2012.08.04 20:58:00 ] Horatius Caul > "FInd us in the X constellation, if you dare"
 [ 2012.08.04 20:58:07 ] Rogue Integer > You could write your corp thread semi-IC, though
 [ 2012.08.04 20:58:12 ] Matariki Rain > And since right now I'm considering endings a lot: is this an ongoing thing? Will it conclude? Will we want to take in new people after the first tranche? Could it become... an alternative to EVE University for new RPers? :P
 [ 2012.08.04 20:58:29 ] Hoshisuuvi > Open ended, imo Mata
 [ 2012.08.04 20:58:33 ] Rogue Integer > that would be a tough road to hoe on the Uni thing.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:58:46 ] Dex Nederland > And we would have to open up to other factions
 [ 2012.08.04 20:58:53 ] Matariki Rain > Trying to get a feel for the intended scale, even if reality can lead in very different directions.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:59:12 ] Horatius Caul > start small with good traction and see where the road leads
 [ 2012.08.04 20:59:22 ] James Syagrius > /emote nods.
 [ 2012.08.04 20:59:27 ] Horatius Caul > or, well
 [ 2012.08.04 20:59:32 ] Horatius Caul > start with good off-road tiers and just drive
 [ 2012.08.04 20:59:38 ] Horatius Caul > tires*
 [ 2012.08.04 20:59:43 ] Horatius Caul > :P
 [ 2012.08.04 21:00:27 ] Hoshisuuvi > Alright, I think Len will have something to say to the cluster via the IGS in the near future.  We'll let that serve as the IC beacon for other characters to lead them to the group.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:00:45 ] Hoshisuuvi > I want to keep identities secret as much as possible.  You know who my alt is.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:00:58 ] James Syagrius > So, interested alt's may come here to this channel for additional information?
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:08 ] Hoshisuuvi > Horatius, if you're able to step up and do the director thing, you'd be known too.  But the rest...
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:08 ] Matariki Rain > It could be cool to have a particular thing that's the group's cash crop. Ideally something with components that we'd get from doing the nomadic thing. Then aim to become known as the best suppliers of X.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:14 ] Horatius Caul > yup
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:22 ] Matariki Rain > Oh, corp finances? Tax rate?
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:30 ] Hoshisuuvi > Zero.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:33 ] Dex Nederland > Cash Crop - PI?
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:33 ] Hoshisuuvi > No?
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:42 ] Horatius Caul > yeah, null
 [ 2012.08.04 21:01:45 ] Inara Subaka > PI ties you to one location
 [ 2012.08.04 21:02:03 ] Hoshisuuvi > Cash crop is whatever we can sell that week?
 [ 2012.08.04 21:02:03 ] Dex Nederland > Ya, the setup cost is too great
 [ 2012.08.04 21:02:08 ] Dex Nederland > Scordite!
 [ 2012.08.04 21:02:11 ] Hoshisuuvi > ^
 [ 2012.08.04 21:02:59 ] Valdezi > Sounds logical.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:03:14 ] Hoshisuuvi > Alright, everybody, this was a very productive meeting.  We're just over the 1 hour mark I wanted to keep to.  I really appreciate everyone's attendance and input.  The log will be posted to Backstage shortly for public consumption.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:03:29 ] Dex Nederland > Oh no!
 [ 2012.08.04 21:03:34 ] Horatius Caul > :P
 [ 2012.08.04 21:03:39 ] Matariki Rain > Thank you for calling this.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:03:44 ] Hoshisuuvi > Thanks for coming :)
 [ 2012.08.04 21:03:46 ] Horatius Caul > yeah, this was useful
 [ 2012.08.04 21:03:50 ] Hoshisuuvi > And look for Len's post on IGS.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:04 ] Valdezi > Yeah, thanks, Ken. sorry i slept in.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:06 ] Inara Subaka > *nod*
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:28 ] Hoshisuuvi > np mammal :poetbrofist:
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:32 ] Hoshisuuvi > XD
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:38 ] Horatius Caul > poefist
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:38 ] Matariki Rain > /emote goes back to contemplating shuffling her character slots.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:45 ] Valdezi > heh
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:48 ] Matariki Rain > Later, all.
 [ 2012.08.04 21:04:51 ] Horatius Caul > o7
 [ 2012.08.04 21:05:00 ] Hoshisuuvi > I'll be signing off the channel now.  Fly safe o/
 [ 2012.08.04 21:05:05 ] Dex Nederland > 0/
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: kalaratiri on 05 Aug 2012, 02:31
Just posting as a reminder that I am very keen in getting involved with this in some way, but as I will not come back from New Zealand for a little over two weeks, you may all have to start without me  :oops: (depending on demand).
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 05 Aug 2012, 19:31
Ken, just let me know when you wanna have a chat. I'm basically mining all day everyday on my alt anyway.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Victoria Stecker on 06 Aug 2012, 11:15
Dang it, I go off where there's no internet or TV for a week and all sorts of :awesome: happens, like the olympics, the new mars rover, and this thread. Been looking for something new and fun to do in EVE for a while (still have my eyes on WHG, but RL has been good at keeping me away lately).

 I am very interested, although activity will of course be a concern. I'll probably look at rolling a new character in the next few days, should be fun. It's a character concept I've wanted to work with for a while, simply never tried it.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 06 Aug 2012, 11:19
On Wednesday the awesome new tutorials should be live on TQ. That would be a perfect time to start an alt.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Bataav on 07 Aug 2012, 06:37
I can happily say on record that I have no interest in this idea and have not created an alt who's currently scraping together enough isk to buy himself a Mammoth...

Nope... not at all  8)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Valdezi on 07 Aug 2012, 20:18
Oooo. I'm going to play guess the Bataavalt.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Bataav on 08 Aug 2012, 05:25
Oooo. I'm going to play guess the Bataavalt.
Heh. I've caught myself looking extra suspiciously at every single rookie...

My time has been reduced to:
nom nom nom Scordite Scordite nom nom nom "Are you an outcast? Are you? What about you?" nom nom nom Scordite...
 :ugh:
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 09 Aug 2012, 15:02
Inferno 1.2 is firmly in place.  Mr. Braid has spoken his peace...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1772562&#post1772562
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: orange on 09 Aug 2012, 23:24
So, its out there - did those participating ever agree upon a "goal" or is forming the goal right now?
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ken on 10 Aug 2012, 05:26
I'll have to update the OP today or over the weekend to reflect the direction taken as a result of the meet.  In practice, the corp ought to remain flexible and dynamic though, imo.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Victoria Stecker on 10 Aug 2012, 07:54
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU

I'd be all over this atm if RL weren't being, you know, awesome* at the moment. The semester needs to start so my gf will go back to school and I can play EVE again.




*just got engaged. Wheeeee!
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Tiberious Thessalonia on 10 Aug 2012, 08:06
likelikelikelike
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 10 Aug 2012, 08:36
*just got engaged. Wheeeee!
Wheeeeee!
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: ArtOfLight on 10 Aug 2012, 08:36
Congrats on the engagement, Stecker!

You'll have plenty of options when you get back into the swing of things. WHG is still rocking things, SPOOX is looking pretty solid and I've got something in the works that will come to light soon.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: kalaratiri on 10 Aug 2012, 14:10
Grats Stecker :)
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Ava Starfire on 10 Aug 2012, 16:58
Grats, Stecker! Good luck!
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: hellgremlin on 10 Aug 2012, 20:03
You know what I've always wanted to see?

A thickly-leather-bound book... the pages of which also appear to be skin. One that may be folded from page to page... and each fleshy leaf contains a depiction of a Voluval mark. The whole thing harkens back to the truly savage ages of the Minmatar, when they were just Brutors clubbing Sebiestors over the head with clubs, but already they had this profoundly developed religious ritual, and skin-bound tome that goes along with it.

The book starts with the worst marks possible. Each page is, in fact, the sliced-off, dried-out skin of some poor bastard to receive the bad mark in the ancient past. Back in those days, when you got a bad mark, they just skinned you alive and cut out the choice bit to put in the book. The Pale Eye, the Slaver's Fang, the stuff mentioned in PF. The marks that mean you'll turn out to be a traitor, a predator, a gossip, a thief, a negative influence on society. A few new ones could be added here, too.

As the pages progress, they move from the worst marks to the worse, then the not-so-bad. The not-so-bad section is in fact the most extensive; after all, only a few people get the Ray of Matar like Karin Midular. The rest just get the bull icon, like Midular's friend did in the short story "Ray of Matar" - or some other generic mark that means they'll be a good pilot, or engineer, or street-sweeper.

And they conclude in the greatest marks one could possibly achieve. The Ray of Matar, determining a future leader. The Fuckload of Missiles, determining a future pro at deploying the Gjallarhorn. Etcetera etcetera.

Basically I really would like to see an entire encyclopaedia of Voluval marks.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Matariki Rain on 10 Aug 2012, 21:48
Basically I really would like to see an entire encyclopaedia of Voluval marks.

1. As information, this would be a fantastic resource for Minmatar characters. It's so deeply tied in with the flavour of the race, though, that I think there's some reluctance to have players create it.

2. As an IC artifact I think it's actually a bit awkward. That might be due to my non-canonical development--based on views common in some of the cultures I look to for inspiration--about the importance of the bodies and bones of the ancestors. You might get away with making something like this with the corpses of your enemies, but I don't think that sort of intertribal killing-and-flaying would have been accepted practice for millennia. (It would be a very Istvaan artifact, though: heavy with symbolic and spiritual meaning... quite possibly including that you stopped the people these skins were taken from from joining the ancestors.)

3. We don't currently know if the voluval tradition existed back in the days of "Brutors clubbing Sebiestors over the head with clubs". That's before the Minmatar Empire and long before some of the marks we know about would have made sense: the "Slaver's Fang" and the embarrassing mark that "resembles the symbol of the Ammatar Mandate (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2440.msg34044#msg34044)". There's enough tension in the evidence that I can't tell whether it's really the old tradition it claims, or whether it's a relatively recent one, disseminated as part of building Minmatar identity since the Great Rebellion, and with its own appealing myth of origin.

The following quote is explicitly about tattoos that aren't voluval marks:
Quote from: Ray of Matar (http://community.eveonline.com/races/rayofmatar/page_01.asp?pp=background%2Cstories)
    “Not all families have a motif and not all motifs are associated with a specific family.” Vormar said. “Here, let me show you something.” The old sage started rummaging in his trunk. After a while he produced a large leather-bound book.
    “My father gave me this book when I was your age.” He said. “It illustrates and explains everything you want to know about tattoos. Take a look at it, maybe it will help you decide what motif you want.” Vormar handed Karin the book. She opened it at random. The page showed a picture of a tattooed man, with explanations for each tattoo.
    “This book was published shortly after the rebellion.” Vormar continued. “While we were under the yoke of the Amarrians they systematically tried to erase many of our most sacred traditions; tattooing amongst them. This book was intended to re-introduce this ancient custom to those that had never experienced it. Admittedly not all modern motifs are in it, but all of the old major ones are there. I’ve used it before to teach slave-children such as you about tattooing. You can borrow it for a few days.”
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Anxiang on 15 Aug 2012, 07:08
I am highly interested and wish to join SPOOX as soon as possible.. if I am allowed to.
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: hellgremlin on 15 Aug 2012, 20:54
2. As an IC artifact I think it's actually a bit awkward. That might be due to my non-canonical development--based on views common in some of the cultures I look to for inspiration--about the importance of the bodies and bones of the ancestors. You might get away with making something like this with the corpses of your enemies, but I don't think that sort of intertribal killing-and-flaying would have been accepted practice for millennia. (It would be a very Istvaan artifact, though: heavy with symbolic and spiritual meaning... quite possibly including that you stopped the people these skins were taken from from joining the ancestors.)

I haven't seen my name used as an adjective like that before. What did you mean? ;p
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Matariki Rain on 16 Aug 2012, 03:38
I haven't seen my name used as an adjective like that before. What did you mean? ;p

I confer on you another kind of fame...  ;p
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Horatius Caul on 08 Sep 2012, 17:33
Been out of the game due to Guild Wars 2 for a bit, but will be back to activity by next week, probably.  :P
Title: Re: Kindred of Scarecrows [SPOOX]
Post by: Leopold Caine on 08 Sep 2012, 17:47
GW2 or whatever, I got the notion this idea never lived up to its planned capacity , from immediate talks with random players.

C / D ?