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Author Topic: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense  (Read 10518 times)

Hamish Grayson

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #45 on: 08 Feb 2013, 06:31 »

Quote from: Ghost Hunter
I find this train of thought perturbing because it implies a lack of professionalism.

I really want to say when I first read some of these post:

Quote
WTF? Are you new?
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #46 on: 08 Feb 2013, 06:37 »

Might be a difference in perspective, because this seems to me more a furthering of existing CPD tendencies

This is my take too.
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orange

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #47 on: 08 Feb 2013, 09:28 »

if I was playing a Heth Provist

The problem is, the people who could pull it off don't play Heth Provist.  In May 2008, there weren't a whole lot of Caldari pilots/players cheering for the rise of the forklift operator.  Over the past 5 years, there hasn't been a lot of cheerleaders (a few, but not a lot).  And right now, the Caldari pilots who do sign-up to do the Provist's dirty work are taking a beating from IGS and wrestling with the moral dilemma of "these aren't guri & jagii anymore, these are the very people and organizations I am supposed to be protecting.  I signed up to defend a corporate meritocracy and I am getting used like a disposable tool by the CN & Provists."
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Desiderya

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #48 on: 08 Feb 2013, 10:11 »

The set goal of the fiction is to be ambiguous enough to not offer simple black&white shades. Imho, the past CPD/Heth angle allowed this well. Right now it doesn't look like that anymore. Logical conclusion would be that there are events afoot that require breaking that premise. Furthermore, logical step for our characters is to react accordingly.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #49 on: 08 Feb 2013, 11:10 »

The set goal of the fiction is to be ambiguous enough to not offer simple black&white shades. Imho, the past CPD/Heth angle allowed this well. Right now it doesn't look like that anymore. Logical conclusion would be that there are events afoot that require breaking that premise. Furthermore, logical step for our characters is to react accordingly.

This is interesting because from my point of view the pre-heth State allowed for a complex tapestry of  ambiguous shades of grey but the Story line since painted everything black and white.

One of the reasons, I think, that there wasn’t as much interaction between the Gurista click and the state loyalist click as it seems like there should have been is because of different perceptions of the Caldari State by the players in the two groups.     So if someone brought up in OOC that Falcon’s RP background might cause him to write things that don’t mesh with how they see the State then I can say that the thought did occur to me too.   After all, sometimes the world he described in things he wrote before working for CCP seemed different than New Eden as I perceived it – even though the stories were always highly entertaining and thought provoking.

That being said, I think Falcon is doing a pretty good job here.  I’m willing to admit that there is a small chance I might maybe possibly sort of see the State through some ever so slightly rose tented glasses.   First, even in today’s society big corporations do some pretty evil things to people even though those corporations aren’t inherently evil.   Second, Eve is a HUGE world and when you have mega corps that own worlds with bigger populations that current day earth then somewhere bad stuff is going to happen to people under their jurisdiction.   Even if the CEO and Board of Directors were the poster boys for philanthropists somewhere in the universe atrocities would be being committed in their name at any given moment.   Eve is just too big, oversights will be made and important people will make poor decisions that affect millions of people.

Additionally, even though I don’t think that a mega corporation could succeed without for the most part being philanthropic in regard to its employees, I also don’t think that they’d be able to succeed without being pragmatic enough to understand when to break a few eggs for the good of the whole.

So I’m willing to give Falcon a break if he goes a little heavy handed on the dystopian flavoring.   He’s been handed a pretty nasty mess and I can’t blame him if the clean up process isn’t 100% neat and pretty and to my exact preference.

Frankly I wouldn’t be upset if this was his way of waving his hand and saying “TEA never happened, carry on citizens.”   Eve cannon, especially in regards to the Caldari, is fucked right now.   It’s in shambles and if Falcon has the balls to reboot the whole thing even though it won’t be a easy or pretty process then I’m with him.
« Last Edit: 08 Feb 2013, 11:13 by Hamish Grayson »
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Vikarion

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #50 on: 08 Feb 2013, 11:38 »

Well, I'm still pretty disgusted over the whole mess, but I do suppose I owe Verone a chance. I just know that CCP is going to use this as an opportunity to ruin the State further, but hey, if there's a ten percent chance that I can help effect a change...?

So, time to figure out how to be a Patriot counter-revolutionary.
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Khloe

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #51 on: 08 Feb 2013, 11:49 »

The problem is, the people who could pull it off don't play Heth Provist.  In May 2008, there weren't a whole lot of Caldari pilots/players cheering for the rise of the forklift operator.  Over the past 5 years, there hasn't been a lot of cheerleaders (a few, but not a lot).  And right now, the Caldari pilots who do sign-up to do the Provist's dirty work are taking a beating from IGS and wrestling with the moral dilemma of "these aren't guri & jagii anymore, these are the very people and organizations I am supposed to be protecting.  I signed up to defend a corporate meritocracy and I am getting used like a disposable tool by the CN & Provists."
Never said it was an easy role to take, but anyone fighting in faction warfare or was previously advocating the recapture of caldari prime prior to his rise in power (frothing ultra-nationalists, i'm looking at you!) have benefited from his reign. Now the liberals are protesting openly, testing his resolve, the practicals are probably getting outside help and trying to unite the factions against Heth, and even the patriots are fighting back for autonomy, and what's going to happen is a lot of dead people while a civil war unfolds. Provists will eventually be swept aside, but at what price?

The question that could be asked is whether capsule pilots are as comfortable doing the dirty work for Heth/Provists or the nepotistic executive panel.
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Grideris

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #52 on: 08 Feb 2013, 11:53 »

Just a gentle reminder that CCP Abraxas and CCP Gnauton are actually writing the story, and CCP Falcon and CCP Eterne are just executing their orders.
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Graelyn

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #53 on: 08 Feb 2013, 12:11 »

Keep in mind folks:

FALCON IS LITERALLY HAVING TO FIX THE TONYG SITUATIONS.

That said....

WHERE ARE THE CAPSULEER PROVISTS?

DIANA KIM! WE NEED YOU (for the first time eveeeer)
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If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Saikoyu

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #54 on: 08 Feb 2013, 14:32 »

Shit is getting super real. And Heth doesn't seem to just be kicking his bucket, but a whole bunch of other buckets too.

Also, 514 references. Still not telling you guys what it means  :P

This is actually something I've wanted to know for a long time. If you wouldn't mind PMing...

Likewise.

Same here please, I gots ta know.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #55 on: 08 Feb 2013, 18:40 »

The issue here is that what many people saw as "Provists" were in fact characters that to varying degrees bought into the vision of the CPD and the New Meritocracy during a period of decline of the Caldari State. There was a sense of hope for a new future, a return to fundamental values, and the creation of a more egalitarian, fair, and meritocratic society. This support was furthered with the retaking of the Caldari Homeworld by Tibus Heth. Even if one didn't agree fully with the nationalist rhetoric of the Executor, support could still be justified on the points above.

This was the element of complexity and shades of grey that Heth and the CPD introduced into the State, sure the guy was a forklift driver and probably a xenophobic racist dictator to some but for others he was the guy that had a plan for the future and given the recession the State had entered, popular support was a reasonable assertion to make because he did, at least initially, did try to introduce change and rectify sore points for many citizens?

Now however, it's all changed and it seems the State is becoming overstretched to its limits, Kaalakiota (the largest State Mega) is heavily in debt to the Empire and seems to be tanking heavily trying to support all of Heth's agendas, there appears to be little delivery on the promises for the future made by the CPD in addition to degrees of social unrest.

To top it all off, the CPD has just the precedent that it can and will violate corporate sovereignty to anyone that disagrees with its policies and politics and that any attempts to seek arbitration via the CBT against KK or the CPD will be met with an Executive Order preventing it. It is that point itself that for my character at least is a very difficult pill to swallow for many reasons, because while she supported the CPD and the Executor due to agreement with the concepts of the New Meritocracy and a hope for a better future for the State, it seems like everything is back to exactly where it started.

It sometimes seems like everyone just read TEA and assumed support for the CPD meant you had to be a jingoistic nationalist while forgetting that there was more to it than just that from a lot of the PF and articles released about it that provided reasonable points to support it for a Caldari. Now it's just particularly confusing because it's difficult to support a CPD promoting a "return to values" for a Caldari that doesn't have rampant xenophobic nationalism when it has visibly trampled upon those very same values.

Civil wars are never civil, and right now as a Caldari RP'er it feels like the only things possible is trying to decide what's the best out of a lot of bad options.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #56 on: 08 Feb 2013, 19:49 »

The issue here is that what many people saw as "Provists" were in fact characters that to varying degrees bought into the vision of the CPD and the New Meritocracy during a period of decline of the Caldari State. There was a sense of hope for a new future, a return to fundamental values, and the creation of a more egalitarian, fair, and meritocratic society. This support was furthered with the retaking of the Caldari Homeworld by Tibus Heth. Even if one didn't agree fully with the nationalist rhetoric of the Executor, support could still be justified on the points above.

Ha!  Hamish agreed with the nationalist rhetoric but believed the CPD was turning the state away from it's fundamental values and that the Caldari had become less of a meritocratic society under the Heth regime :P  There seemed to me enough evidence in the early news articles to suggest that the  CPD wasn't what they put on the outside of the box so I took that and ran with it.

The means by which the guy took back Caldari Prime should have ended in a complete military victory by the Federation over the State and anyone with any sense should be able to see that the Caldari victory was fluke, not military genius.  Hamish wanted CP back as much as any other Patriot and wasn’t averse to risk in taking it – however what was done was reckless and stupid not ballsy.   For Hamish risking the State (to the Federation!) on a gamble that was nearly guaranteed to lose is more than enough reason for open rebellion against the CPD and absolute proof that from the Executor on down that they didn’t merit the authority they were taking for themselves.   There is a huge laundry list of other reasons, but with this one alone no others are needed.

The articles around the actions taken by Heth to take the state out of the recession were to me worded in a way that if you paid close enough attention you could see that the CPD’s programs were pretty useless.   They didn’t say that the CPD’s worker education programs were the best, largest or most efficient ever created, only that they most expensive programs run on the State level (I.E. what the CEP had done in the past and not compared to individual mega’s programs)

There was also the suggestion that the apparent upturn in the State’s economy was not because those programs but because of the Amarrian grant combined with the fresh natural resources from Black Rise and Placid.   You’ll note that it wasn’t that long before the economy turned back sour when Placid was lost and it pretty much stayed in the shitter since.   It was only briefly that the State enjoyed any economic prosperity under the CPD.

There were also news article about how the State protectorate was incurring way more cost in managing Caldari Prime than the Caldari Navy would have been if Heth had allowed them to manage instead of his loyal army.     This was followed on by an article talking about how the Mordu’s Legion was saw an upswing in recruitment because all the Navy’s resources were being siphoned off to the State Protectorate and the best Caldari baseline officers didn’t like their options of being a in a Navy that was having it’s place usurped or joining a shitty outfit like StaPro.   This also suggests a level of animosity between the CPD/Protectorate and the Caldari Navy and is a clear example of Provists being rewarded for political loyalty when they are obviously of lesser merit and ability than the Caldari Navy.

On top of this a very high percentage of the handful of articles we’ve had over the last few years have been about the CPD violating corporate sovereignty.   They weren't telling us much, but what they were saying when they did finally talk to us was the Provist are all about violating corporate sov, so I don’t see how this is a surprise to anybody.   The precedent was set at the very beginning and the theme carried on all the way to day.

To me there are far more examples, right there for our characters to see, of the CPD turning the State away from a meritocracy and blatantly violating corp sov than there is of them bringing about a resurgence of Caldari values or a return to a meritocracy.
I think a factory worker can be excused for buying into the party line but with the information available to a capsuleer they should be able to see that the CPD aren’t as advertized.

right now as a Caldari RP'er it feels like the only things possible is trying to decide what's the best out of a lot of bad options.

This is how it’s been since 2006.  You’ve only just become involved enough to notice it just now.

« Last Edit: 08 Feb 2013, 21:12 by Hamish Grayson »
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Desiderya

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #57 on: 08 Feb 2013, 20:02 »

That's the point, Hamish. You were able to pick your side. There was plenty of ammunition for arguments pro- and contra the whole ordeal, whereas now it's getting increasingly difficult.
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Khloe

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #58 on: 08 Feb 2013, 20:55 »

That's the point, Hamish. You were able to pick your side. There was plenty of ammunition for arguments pro- and contra the whole ordeal, whereas now it's getting increasingly difficult.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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Sepherim

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Re: Chronicle: Sirens of Fear and Sense
« Reply #59 on: 08 Feb 2013, 21:05 »

Civil wars are never civil, and right now as a Caldari RP'er it feels like the only things possible is trying to decide what's the best out of a lot of bad options.

I always liked stories centered on "choosing the lesser evil", instead of "doing things right", and this is just the case, as you very well put it. And, very often, that's what happens with society, no clear and good paths are available.
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