Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Oct 2013, 12:47
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http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/operation-highlander-documents-released-implicate-federation-in-widespread-spying/
So am I reading this wrong or is the Federation continuing to be the PF super +10 winningest best faction evar?
Every invasion stopped cold! Every political objective obtained!
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It's the political equivalent of a two year old taking an explosive shit on a piece of canvas and a parent calling it art.
It might've helped the Fed out a bit on the intel end of things, but I doubt any serious effects occurred in the State as a direct result.
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On the other hand, Feds have often been viewed as the faction that gets punched in the face and only then responds - Sarpati nabs the titan leading to increased security, Heth invades CP leading in part to the Empyrean War, Uriam Kador's invasion, the Seyllin event, the burning of Evaulon - for the last few years, the Federation has been in a very responsive role, rather than an active one. I suspect this is attempting to shift that dynamic a bit.
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Uhm. What?
Did I read that right? Federation espionage in the State began at the outbreak of the Empyrean War?
Waitaminute. I did read that right.
According to the dossier, the Federation has had operatives infiltrating the Caldari State since the outbreak of the Empyrean War in YC110. This includes numerous operatives engaged in long-term, deep-cover operations within all eight Caldari megacorporations.
So, there were no Federation spies in the State prior to that? None smuggled out with refugees from Caldari Prime? None snuck in with Caldari fleeing other Federation planets? None slipped in during the thawing relations after the end of the first war? Amazing. Here I thought FIO was everywhere. So much for that "extensive spy network that is only rivaled by the Jove".
Though my goodness, those agents did make up for lost time, didn't they? Some of them might have managed to become high powered executives within Caldari megacorporations within a five year period of time. (assuming that some did, instead of just turning executives who were already in place). Did all these successful spies have copies of the same how-to-go-from-forklift-driver-to-CEO business management guide that Heth had?
p.s. Though seriously, anyone who is shocked by the presence of Federation operatives anywhere ... sheesh...
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So now, Roden has activated Godmod.
Rubbish.
Even if I was the first to claim that the Amarr and the Gallente were ludicrously losing everything before, that's overdoing it a bit.
Without even considering what Vieve said too. Completely inconsistent.
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Uhm. What?
Did I read that right? Federation espionage in the State began at the outbreak of the Empyrean War?
Waitaminute. I did read that right.
According to the dossier, the Federation has had operatives infiltrating the Caldari State since the outbreak of the Empyrean War in YC110. This includes numerous operatives engaged in long-term, deep-cover operations within all eight Caldari megacorporations.
So, there were no Federation spies in the State prior to that? None smuggled out with refugees from Caldari Prime? None snuck in with Caldari fleeing other Federation planets? None slipped in during the thawing relations after the end of the first war? Amazing. Here I thought FIO was everywhere. So much for that "extensive spy network that is only rivaled by the Jove".
I think, and as it's been a while since I read it I can't be certain, there was something in the Empyrian Age Novel about the Federations Intelligence Network inside the State being absolutely decimated in the runup to the Caldari Invasion. It's why the Federation had to rely so heavily on Tripwire, their first line of intelligence in the State, their human assets, were gone.
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Welp, I didn't even catch that.
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I think, and as it's been a while since I read it I can't be certain, there was something in the Empyrian Age Novel about the Federations Intelligence Network inside the State being absolutely decimated in the runup to the Caldari Invasion. It's why the Federation had to rely so heavily on Tripwire, their first line of intelligence in the State, their human assets, were gone.
Argh. I'll have to go back and re-read that bit, because I didn't remember that (or what decimated it in the first place).
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I have doubts anyone remotely important in State Megacorps would work for the Federation.
I have doubts anyone from the Federation (or with a family history remotely associated) would rise to be in an important position in a Megacorp.
It'd be like China's Politburo or the Supreme Ruler of Iran hiring an American to run one of their gigantic State companies.
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Heh, lol, 2 birds with one stone (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/conservative-senator-calls-republic-untrustworthy/) and they curbstomp the Minmatar at the same time. to make the feds look even more awesome !
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Took me a bit of flicking through the book to find it. It's in Chapter 58, cause was a Provist Purge. I've no idea how the Provists could have identified the entire network though so assume a combination of Broker and TonyG.
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a combination of Broker and TonyG.
(http://www.nioutaik.fr/images/continuum/continuum17.jpg)
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Apparently totalitarian regimes limiting personal freedoms of citizens are pretty bad at counterespionage. 8)
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It'd be like China's Politburo or the Supreme Ruler of Iran hiring an American to run one of their gigantic State companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five
Apparently totalitarian regimes limiting personal freedoms of citizens are pretty bad at counterespionage. 8)
Caldari get best military, Feds get best intelligence network. Seems balanced from a lorewriting perspective.
The Federation being multilingual, multiethnic, multinational, multicultural, and multieverything would give them an edge in knowing how to infiltrate the others IMO
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Considering the Fed have 100% obliterated any opposing PF forces for the last several years I'm not so sure.
WTB more dreadfleets landing at 0 on moros blobs.
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For the last several years ? They have kept taking hits until that year...
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This is exactly what I expected (and I assumed as such back during the Caldari Prime stuff (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4429.msg70116#msg70116)). FIO and Black Eagles are the premier intelligence and special operations unit in the universe right now, and this is right up their alley. It's also been implied for a long time--it proves that Heth was right in his announcements that there were Federal infiltrators working within the State.
This fits in very well with my view of the Federation, and specifically the Black Eagles, of having their biggest defense be in their Intelligence services. Very cool by my book. Not sure why it rubs some people the wrong way. As Vieve says, what is actually odd is the statement that it's only been since the Empyrean War... I'd expect the Feds to have had infiltrators in the State for far longer than that. And also ones in the Empire and the Republic (it's explicitly stated that the Feds have agents in the Empire as of the Nation-Empires war. They even had spies in Nation. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modern_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Nation-Empires_War)).
Anyone who didn't see this coming doesn't really get the Federation, I think. This is nothing new. It's not godmoding at all, as the Federal intelligence network is consistently shown as their biggest strength. Even the in-game FIO description specifically describes them as running a spy network unparalleled by anyone but maybe the Jove (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Office).
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Infiltrators? Spies? Sure. Totes.
My guess is that 'compromised' in this sense means that, y'know, FIO agents have gotten dirt on those who can be gotten dirt on, and turned those who can be turned, or at least acquired access to the classified materials of parties in question-- maybe not the management class as a whole, but enough agents in enough places that they had solid intelligence and the occasional ability to influence events. I could see the State's fractious nature helping that, as it seems to lack a centralized intelligence agency, and so best practice may not necessarily be uniform.
Further, I could easily see some self-interested megacorp exec (not the highest tier, but upper echelon) going, "This Executor **** is for the dogs. We need Heth gone. Hey, FIO? For the State means **** Heth. Down?"
Now, the thing that I find hilarious is that this was 'destabilizing the Heth regime prior to CP,' instead of 'destabilizing the Heth regime presence on CP before Highlander.' Obviously, Heth was growing unstable, but was his regime destabilized...?
Nah. Probably some cigar-smoking politicos patting themselves on the back unnecessarily.
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Caldari get best military
Yeah, just like the Pirates who don't do anything. The only time the State has won anything is when the Federation was sabotaged from within. Hell, even the Incursions were basically given free reign in the State.
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Infiltrators? Spies? Sure. Totes.
My guess is that 'compromised' in this sense means that, y'know, FIO agents have gotten dirt on those who can be gotten dirt on, and turned those who can be turned, or at least acquired access to the classified materials of parties in question-- maybe not the management class as a whole, but enough agents in enough places that they had solid intelligence and the occasional ability to influence events. I could see the State's fractious nature helping that, as it seems to lack a centralized intelligence agency, and so best practice may not necessarily be uniform.
Further, I could easily see some self-interested megacorp exec (not the highest tier, but upper echelon) going, "This Executor **** is for the dogs. We need Heth gone. Hey, FIO? For the State means **** Heth. Down?"
Now, the thing that I find hilarious is that this was 'destabilizing the Heth regime prior to CP,' instead of 'destabilizing the Heth regime presence on CP before Highlander.' Obviously, Heth was growing unstable, but was his regime destabilized...?
Nah. Probably some cigar-smoking politicos patting themselves on the back unnecessarily.
I mostly agree with you Makoto - certainly your take on how an intelligence agency indirectly gains access to and maintains its intelligence sources is, I think, more grounded in reality than some of the other interpretations in this thread. It's unlikely that the 'compromised executives' were Gallente or even representative of the Federation - the term compromised is used quite vaguely in the news item and could mean anything as a result.
As to whether they were destabilising the Heth regime prior to, during or after the Highlander op was carried out - it's open to debate. There's sufficient circumstantial evidence in Chronicles dating back to 2008 that suggests they might have been. Here's two (http://goo.gl/vPE4Xr) chronicles (http://goo.gl/lsYxra) that hint at that agenda (dating back to 2008/YC110 if you accept the possibility of the FIO being involved with the assassination of Heth's most trusted advisor) and that's by no means an exhaustive list. That said, there's also a lot of room (http://goo.gl/0D4DFu) to argue the opposite - that the Fed's involvement was minimal if there at all and that the State cleaned its own house, thanks very much :) I think it sets a good background to RP against and is consistent with this years attempts to re-establish the setting that was there prior to TEA without sending us into 100% retcon.
As to the 'cigar-smoking politicos' image ... the Scope article is the result of those same politicos losing or leaking a classified military report on Op. Highlander. I'm not so sure there'd be too much back-slapping going on. It's a highly embarrassing breach of internal security played out on a cluster-wide stage.
TL;DR Seems like business as usual for Gallente-Caldari espionage to me. Not sure why so many are closing their eyes, sticking fingers in their ears and singing 'Mary Had A Little Lamb' so loudly.
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I have doubts anyone remotely important in State Megacorps would work for the Federation.
Not like Ishukone would ever work for the benefit of the Federation over the benefit of their fellow Caldari.
:P
I have doubts anyone from the Federation (or with a family history remotely associated) would rise to be in an important position in a Megacorp.
No Gallente would ever rise to an important position in a megacorporation like Roden Shipyards or Quafe. It is impossible
:P
It'd be like China's Politburo or the Supreme Ruler of Iran hiring an American to run one of their gigantic State companies.
No, but they most definitely hire Chinese and Iranians educated in American and European universities to help run those large companies.
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This is exactly what I expected (and I assumed as such back during the Caldari Prime stuff (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4429.msg70116#msg70116)). FIO and Black Eagles are the premier intelligence and special operations unit in the universe right now, and this is right up their alley. It's also been implied for a long time--it proves that Heth was right in his announcements that there were Federal infiltrators working within the State.
This fits in very well with my view of the Federation, and specifically the Black Eagles, of having their biggest defense be in their Intelligence services. Very cool by my book. Not sure why it rubs some people the wrong way. As Vieve says, what is actually odd is the statement that it's only been since the Empyrean War... I'd expect the Feds to have had infiltrators in the State for far longer than that. And also ones in the Empire and the Republic (it's explicitly stated that the Feds have agents in the Empire as of the Nation-Empires war. They even had spies in Nation. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modern_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Nation-Empires_War)).
Anyone who didn't see this coming doesn't really get the Federation, I think. This is nothing new. It's not godmoding at all, as the Federal intelligence network is consistently shown as their biggest strength. Even the in-game FIO description specifically describes them as running a spy network unparalleled by anyone but maybe the Jove (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Office).
I didn't wanna say this because obviously I'm biased and would sound like a fanboy, but yeah. Samira has the right of it.
Earlier this year we got stories about how the Federation military was sort of...sucking with who they recruited. There was some booster thing I totally forgot the details of...it's just difficult to maintain a disciplined military for an empire that is fundamentally averse to direct conflict (ultranationalist exceptions don't count). So they've got to fall back on other avenues of defense.
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It's unlikely that the 'compromised executives' were Gallente or even representative of the Federation - the term compromised is used quite vaguely in the news item and could mean anything as a result.
This. The executives were almost certainly Caldari by birth, and probably have been from families living in the State for generations.
Despite what movies portray, the majority of spying isn't "secret agent man" stuff where some highly-trained mole is sent into the enemy country with faked documents. More often, they are natural-born citizens who have been persuaded to release information to a foreign government. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_HUMINT#Defector_in_place) I would expect these high-level executives to have been that kind... State citizens from long-lined Caldari families who have decided that Heth's regime/the war is bad for the State and chosen to provide clandestine assistance to the Federation in the hopes that they'll put a check on Heth/the war.
We've already seen that many executives were not happy with Heth's regime, to the degree of resigning in protest (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/numerous-caldari-management-resign-heth-promises-significant-investigations/). It's not a stretch to think that some may have decided to open communication with the Federation (or been persuaded to). That's how espionage works--exploitation of existing internal divisions or desires within the target society. The Provists even knew about it and were actively working against it (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/provists-arrest-at-least-five-executives-supposed-federation-operatives/) (yet so many people somehow thought that Heth was just being a tyrant and that the arrests weren't justified, because he was obviously the bad guy, right? Clearly, the poor, poor executives were all innocent! Lol.)
There is nothing problematic about some of the infiltrators being high-level executives, because of the way espionage works. Nothing in this report should come across as new or shocking. It's been pretty clear over the last year, really.
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So. There's an acronym, MICE-- Money, Ideology, Conscience, Ego, that's the shorthand for motives for spying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_spying
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Yeah, foreign intelligence basically works by having handlers sent out to foreign territory to try and enlist the assistance of the locals who are interested in spying for the enemy. And the Gallente Federation having larger portions of every New Eden ethnicity in its borders than anywhere else, the FIO could likely send out ethnic Caldari who are fully fledged Feds into the State to try and entice megacorp executives. That would be more effective than sending a Jin-Mei or ethnic Gallente. The whole James Bond thing Samira said isn't really a thing.
I can imagine some might say "It's not possible, Caldari would never contemplate the idea", but Caldari are still human.
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This is exactly what I expected (and I assumed as such back during the Caldari Prime stuff (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4429.msg70116#msg70116)). FIO and Black Eagles are the premier intelligence and special operations unit in the universe right now, and this is right up their alley. It's also been implied for a long time--it proves that Heth was right in his announcements that there were Federal infiltrators working within the State.
This fits in very well with my view of the Federation, and specifically the Black Eagles, of having their biggest defense be in their Intelligence services. Very cool by my book. Not sure why it rubs some people the wrong way. As Vieve says, what is actually odd is the statement that it's only been since the Empyrean War... I'd expect the Feds to have had infiltrators in the State for far longer than that. And also ones in the Empire and the Republic (it's explicitly stated that the Feds have agents in the Empire as of the Nation-Empires war. They even had spies in Nation. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modern_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Nation-Empires_War)).
Anyone who didn't see this coming doesn't really get the Federation, I think. This is nothing new. It's not godmoding at all, as the Federal intelligence network is consistently shown as their biggest strength. Even the in-game FIO description specifically describes them as running a spy network unparalleled by anyone but maybe the Jove (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Office).
So everyone except you do not get the Federation. I got it.
We are not complaining because they win for once - or at least, i'm not complaining - but rather because it's rubbish in the way it's done. It feels very godmoddesque too.
Why would these spies have to do anything to begin with ? Everyone wanted Heth gone. That they encouraged them to act ? Lolwut. They could have let it rot and would have gotten out as gallente even better since their enemies would have been in civil war for even longer. By doing what they supposedly did and helped them overcome Heth was actually making the State a favor.
That was unecessary as a story plot. What is interesting and enough is the FIO involvement in helping and preparing for the battle of CP. That, is cool in my book. And doesnt feel godmoddy. I would also be "lolwtfbbq" if someone told me that the Minmatar infiltrated agents suddenly overthrowned the empress... No, people are only ok with it because it's Heth and jackboots space nazis.
Or like if the Amarr wtf roflstomped the Minmtar prime minister behind closed doors... Oh wait, nevermind.
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Doesn't bother me.
I'm just going to assume OOC and IC that it's all just hogwash and grandstanding without any real substance. Like Veikitamo said IC, how do we know it's not just a clever ruse to start a witch hunt in the State over these supposed high ranking traitors?
My money is on that bet, honestly.
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Doesn't bother me.
I'm just going to assume OOC and IC that it's all just hogwash and grandstanding without any real substance. Like Veikitamo said IC, how do we know it's not just a clever ruse to start a witch hunt in the State over these supposed high ranking traitors?
My money is on that bet, honestly.
Oooh, true.
Also I think people are missing something key with CCP's news items. What I've noticed is that there's a lot of "claims" and " implied" but rarely any actual hard words. Same with this news item. It just says what this report says.
Doesn't mean it's true.
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(http://i.imgur.com/uyiVwVA.gif)
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This is Blaque and the FIO we're talking about. While it's entirely possible there may be some mid to upper mid level spies, or intel feeders within the State, which isn't unlikely no matter how much people want to believe their faction is infallible and not actually consisting of human beings, it isn't the most probable angle in this scenario.
If those files had really been lost, do you think for one moment the FIO would have let the press catch wind of it? They wanted this to be public knowledge, they wanted the juices to stir on the prospect of what those reports may contain, because the general masses of New Eden seem to be a complete sucker for gossip and sensationalism. The way it was set up is these reports MUST be true, why else would the FIO and the Senate be in arms over them?
So when they're released it's had a two fold effect, it's caused unrest in the State leading to a potential top down witchhunt, which will potentially result in complete shakeups and re-organisation and appointment of personnel (which ironically is the perfect time to put new agents into the mix if you're the FIO) and it's a great cover story to do a shakedown on the largest media network and rifle through everything the Scope has going.
All the while painting the picture to the gut reaction masses that Blaque and his minions are a bunch of bumbling fools who can't keep their paperwork in order.
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I'll put my money saying that Jacus Roden tipped off The Scope, to weaken Mentas Blaque, as the guy was getting too powerful.
This not only puts the FedGov in a good light saying "we knocked down" Heth, but also creates a purge and witch hunt within the State that will keep them busy looking inwards for a while.
Perfect strategy if you ask me.
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Doesn't bother me.
I'm just going to assume OOC and IC that it's all just hogwash and grandstanding without any real substance. Like Veikitamo said IC, how do we know it's not just a clever ruse to start a witch hunt in the State over these supposed high ranking traitors?
My money is on that bet, honestly.
Oooh, true.
Also I think people are missing something key with CCP's news items. What I've noticed is that there's a lot of "claims" and " implied" but rarely any actual hard words. Same with this news item. It just says what this report says.
Doesn't mean it's true.
Sounds reasonable...
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I'll put my money saying that Jacus Roden tipped off The Scope, to weaken Mentas Blaque, as the guy was getting too powerful.
This not only puts the FedGov in a good light saying "we knocked down" Heth, but also creates a purge and witch hunt within the State that will keep them busy looking inwards for a while.
Perfect strategy if you ask me.
Too boring. I say Scope has spais everywhere, and their spais spai the Fed spai doing spai things and told The Scope editors about it, who in turn unleash their legions of reporters to get The Scope in a very good attempt to hide the existence of their spai while fulfilling their mission of informing/misinforming the public at the same time.
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This is striking me as another case of art imitating life.
The U.S. since 9-11 has often seemed to be a sort of case study for CCP in its characterization of the Federation (never mind that the Federation is apparently more a confederation of loosely-joined entities of a kind that has historically worked better in theory than in practice-- just ask Jefferson Davis).
U.S. suffers a shocking loss, goes slightly nuts; Federation does the same. U.S. starts getting stories about its extensive intelligence network leaked; Federation does the same. U.S. shows a nasty undertone of surviving racism; Federation does the same.
It's not bad (it establishes Federal imperfections in some plausible ways), but it's maybe a little too predictable. Perhaps they could start taking a few more pages from the French and have the Gallente test a WMD on a mostly-unpopulated Intaki colony world or something?
Edit:
Also, if they're TRULY going to have art imitating life (and widening the gulf between Federation and Republic), look forward to a revelation of similarly high-level infiltration of Republic power structures!
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Does this mean that Shakor is Merkel?
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If the Fed had spies that high up in the Republic, the people responsible for Colelie would already have been outed and/or bagged and tagged.
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If the Fed had spies that high up in the Republic, the people responsible for Colelie would already have been outed and/or bagged and tagged.
Yea mean the Tribal Council
I don't like this descriptions that may show the Fed as space murica... isn't it possible to show it in a diffrent way. :(
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Yeah, why does it need to be "art imitating life"? Why can't it be a completely unique and original storyline?
Every other faction manages it.
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I don't like this descriptions that may show the Fed as space murica... isn't it possible to show it in a diffrent way. :(
Yeah, why does it need to be "art imitating life"? Why can't it be a completely unique and original storyline?
Every other faction manages it.
Do they?
Every faction is a historical mulligan stew with some odd element thrown in whose impact is actually less than it looks like it should be. The Amarr are Space Feudalism, with the addition of a check/balance in the persons of the Speakers of Truth to make its long-term stability plausible. The Minmatar are tribal victims of a colonial power that have strong enough ties to one another through a shared history of suffering that the usual tribal bickering-leading-to-bad-things hasn't happened. The Caldari would be a fine blend of the most "greater good" -minded Japanese and Germans, if it weren't for that odd capitalist governing structure-- which, however, isn't really "corporate" in the way we think of it because the standard capitalist corporation has no duties but to its stockholders, which isn't the case among the Caldari. It's better described as quasi-feudal and meritocratic, comparable to imperial China if the Warring States period had reached detente instead of actually ending.
The Gallente Federation is basically France (remember, there's an ugly undercurrent of anti-immigrant sentiment, there, too) redone as a confederation (which doesn't actually work, but it's a nice idea) with the sort of problems you get as a democratic superpower (hence the American-style issues).
We don't have too many models for the troubles a democratic superpower gets into (though we've got plenty for the ones any democracy gets into-- "we the people" aren't necessarily the best judges of our own best interests, especially when we're scared and/or pissed off). The U.S. seems to be our main generator for those.
Now, if they wanted to carry their confederacy format to its historically-typical conclusion, that would be a different and very interesting set of problems. Sadly, it would mean no more Federation, because it would involve the whole thing going to bits....
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Uh... Besides the structure of the government that might be inspired of it, the Fed is hardly like France at all, except in the naming flavour... France is a super centralized society and still retains a lot of its Gaullist mindset and Bonapartist administrative structure. It's also hardly a melting pot of cultures where culture is actually enforced and stenghtened by various old national bodies whose sole purpose is the preservation of the language, culture, etc.
Really, it's closer to the US, without being a mirror of the US (fortunately...).
Also there are undercurrents of anti-immigrant sentiments almost everywhere anyway. France is like any other.
Art imitating, yeah, sure, but copycats... bleh.
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I think that when CCP envisioned France as the ancestry of the Gallente, they were thinking of the artistic/fashion minded stereotype that comes with several subcultures commonly considered Parisian, then crossing that with the historically liberal "freedom!" esque actions of the populace during key moments in history. English occupation, French Revolution and WW2 occupation all spring to mind.
It's extremely stereotyping but that's pretty much how I understood the atypical French part of the cultural influence, the rest is ideally western liberal culture underlined with an exceptionally paranoid and big brother esque surveillance centric Government, controlling through subterfuge and media, occasionally crossing the two.
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My husband had an intersting view that theCaldari are far more "American" - albeit dystopian advanced - than the Gallente - specifically in that "megacorps" run everything, and are considered "living entities" and "persons".
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My husband had an intersting view that theCaldari are far more "American" - albeit dystopian advanced - than the Gallente - specifically in that "megacorps" run everything, and are considered "living entities" and "persons".
It depends on how one interprets the antebellum Federation. It is possible to recast the entire Gallente-Caldari conflict outside of ethnic tones and focus on Government vs Corporate conflict. I think it is very possible to argue that powerful corporations in the Federation actually run everything there as well, just not as directly.
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Certainly the corporations had a large hand in the deposition of the last President, I suppose you could break it down in various ways. You could say the conflict is big government vs big business, and is a replication of the modern Democrat and Republican struggles. There's multiple influences from different culture that it's impossible to pin one down as the ultimate definition of any of the big four empires.
They're snippets of various aspects.
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I think that when CCP envisioned France as the ancestry of the Gallente, they were thinking of the artistic/fashion minded stereotype that comes with several subcultures commonly considered Parisian, then crossing that with the historically liberal "freedom!" esque actions of the populace during key moments in history. English occupation, French Revolution and WW2 occupation all spring to mind.
It's extremely stereotyping but that's pretty much how I understood the atypical French part of the cultural influence, the rest is ideally western liberal culture underlined with an exceptionally paranoid and big brother esque surveillance centric Government, controlling through subterfuge and media, occasionally crossing the two.
Side topic, but I've never really understood the whole Gallente are Space French (or Space America) bit. Yes, I know what the lore states - but doesn't it also state they were colonists from Tau Ceti for centuries if not millennia before migrating through the EVE gate? So .. France (? 30 thousand years ago) --> Tau Ceti (25-30 thousand years ago) --> New Eden --> then a dark age after the EVE gate collapses and then et voila! Still space French?!?
It's like saying any of the cultures of Modern earth resemble that of the first Homo sapiens to emerge out of Africa. Except on a longer timescale.
Anyway, returning you to the regular programming.
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My husband had an intersting view that theCaldari are far more "American" - albeit dystopian advanced - than the Gallente - specifically in that "megacorps" run everything, and are considered "living entities" and "persons".
That has always been my perception, as well.
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My husband had an intersting view that theCaldari are far more "American" - albeit dystopian advanced - than the Gallente - specifically in that "megacorps" run everything, and are considered "living entities" and "persons".
That has always been my perception, as well.
I doubt I'd ever understand this.
I don't even need to go into detail as to why, because it's pretty obvious, if we were to compare US-Gallente and US-Caldari. Seems to be a fallback when individuals do not adequately know enough about non-US cultures to see the more accurate comparisons for the Caldari.
Of course, I will always advocate as far a removal as possible from RL anyway.
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I doubt I'd ever understand this.
I don't even need to go into detail as to why, because it's pretty obvious, if we were to compare US-Gallente and US-Caldari. Seems to be a fallback when individuals do not adequately know enough about non-US cultures to see the more accurate comparisons for the Caldari.
Of course, I will always advocate as far a removal as possible from RL anyway.
Do you actually have any reasons, or is this your standard line of "others are doing it wrong because they are ignorant xenophobes"?
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Because the Caldari guarantee a basic standard of living and rights for all employees. They abhor the adoption of shiny status symbols. They have a lot more social mobility than the US. They have universal healthcare.
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Because the Caldari guarantee a basic standard of living and rights for all employees. They abhor the adoption of shiny status symbols. They have a lot more social mobility than the US. They have universal healthcare.
They also can fire an employee for any reason, the unemployed have nothing and are considered to barely be people, and the health care is only for those employed by a mega. The Corporations control what they see on the news, the products they buy, and set working conditions.
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(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.
lol what?
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Uh... Besides the structure of the government that might be inspired of it, the Fed is hardly like France at all, except in the naming flavour... France is a super centralized society and still retains a lot of its Gaullist mindset and Bonapartist administrative structure. It's also hardly a melting pot of cultures where culture is actually enforced and stenghtened by various old national bodies whose sole purpose is the preservation of the language, culture, etc.
Really, it's closer to the US, without being a mirror of the US (fortunately...).
Also there are undercurrents of anti-immigrant sentiments almost everywhere anyway. France is like any other.
Art imitating, yeah, sure, but copycats... bleh.
Eh-- fair enough. I suggested France largely because the U.S. doesn't really have a dominant national ethnicity (it does have a diminishingly dominant demographic, but it's "of European descent," not "Irish," for instance). The U.S. is a nation of immigrants in which each wave ends up complaining about the next wave; the Gallente Federation has had fewer immigrants, it seems, than planetary inductees, and the ethnic Gallente have something closely resembling a lock on power, such as it is.
But, I suppose it's really more U.S. -ish.
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Folks, the Caldari aren't American. I mean, they really, really aren't. People worry that we're headed towards a cyberpunk-style corporate dystopia, but even if we actually got there it wouldn't look like the Caldari State. The Caldari megacorps aren't a bunch of amoral business ventures running roughshod over a weakened government; they are the government, and the Caldari culture is set up in a way that's far more lockstep-organized than anything America has produced to date.
We like to think of ourselves as a nation of rugged individualists, which is somewhat a fiction, but we're certainly individualistic. The Caldari aren't, even a little bit. If I read the demographics article correctly, they often live in dormatories up until they settle down in a company-arranged marriage. A person has no legal existence outside of corporate citizenship. With only rare exceptions, corporate identity is personal identity. On the flip side, the corporations also seem to be expected to look after their minions.
That's painfully far from not only contemporary American attitudes, but from anyplace we're likely to head in the next thousand years, absent a new dark age.
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(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.
lol what?
It's actually possible. Social mobility in the U.S. has nose-dived lately; there are swaths of Europe that are ahead of us in that respect.
The State's a meritocracy, so, in principle, people should be promoted according to their abilities more than their origins. There's of course the unreachable "CEO" caste, but I'd compare that to being a Kennedy or a Bush. Mind you, as in the U.S., a lot probably depends on whether the meritocracy is working as intended. With Heth's recent reforms, Caldari social mobility is likely pretty good.
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Folks, the Caldari aren't American. I mean, they really, really aren't. People worry that we're headed towards a cyberpunk-style corporate dystopia, but even if we actually got there it wouldn't look like the Caldari State. The Caldari megacorps aren't a bunch of amoral business ventures running roughshod over a weakened government; they are the government, and the Caldari culture is set up in a way that's far more lockstep-organized than anything America has produced to date.
We like to think of ourselves as a nation of rugged individualists, which is somewhat a fiction, but we're certainly individualistic. The Caldari aren't, even a little bit. If I read the demographics article correctly, they often live in dormatories up until they settle down in a company-arranged marriage. A person has no legal existence outside of corporate citizenship. With only rare exceptions, corporate identity is personal identity. On the flip side, the corporations also seem to be expected to look after their minions.
That's painfully far from not only contemporary American attitudes, but from anyplace we're likely to head in the next thousand years, absent a new dark age.
This may be true where you live. It is not necessarily true over much of America. But that wasn't really what was said.
What was said is that America is closer to the Caldari State than it is to the Gallente Federation. If all factors are taken into account, I think that's at least partly true. And while it is true that Americans do not closely tie themselves to particular corporations in terms of lifetime employment (that has essentially gone out of fashion in most of the world), Americans are more invested into the idea of your work defining you more than most other countries.
Also, out of the industrialized countries, Americans tend to lead the pack in terms of fewest vacation days taken and most days/hours worked. It fluctuates, but in terms of focus on work, Americans appear to be some of the least hedonist, most workaholic people on the planet.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-08-20/news/bs-ed-schaller-vacation-20130820_1_vacation-time-paid-vacation-days-u-s-workers (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-08-20/news/bs-ed-schaller-vacation-20130820_1_vacation-time-paid-vacation-days-u-s-workers)
Americans are also more likely to be accepting of their situation and their prospects, even though other countries tend to actually provide better security for the average citizen:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/13291/americans-really-abject-workaholics.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/13291/americans-really-abject-workaholics.aspx)
...and although the productivity of the American worker keeps rising, making us one of the most productive-per-worker countries in the world, American wages have stagnated.
Apparently we are greedy, rugged individualists right up to the point that we might actually have to go up against the company. :P
Incidentally, if I may so venture, I tend to think that the GalFed is more like a centralized, stronger version of the EU.
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It's like saying any of the cultures of Modern earth resemble that of the first Homo sapiens to emerge out of Africa. Except on a longer timescale.
To be fair, we still bash each other over the heads with a giant rock if we find someone else has resources we want.
The rock just got bigger and more sophisticated over time.
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I think that when CCP envisioned France as the ancestry of the Gallente, they were thinking of the artistic/fashion minded stereotype that comes with several subcultures commonly considered Parisian, then crossing that with the historically liberal "freedom!" esque actions of the populace during key moments in history. English occupation, French Revolution and WW2 occupation all spring to mind.
It's extremely stereotyping but that's pretty much how I understood the atypical French part of the cultural influence, the rest is ideally western liberal culture underlined with an exceptionally paranoid and big brother esque surveillance centric Government, controlling through subterfuge and media, occasionally crossing the two.
Same.
I think that when CCP envisioned France as the ancestry of the Gallente, they were thinking of the artistic/fashion minded stereotype that comes with several subcultures commonly considered Parisian, then crossing that with the historically liberal "freedom!" esque actions of the populace during key moments in history. English occupation, French Revolution and WW2 occupation all spring to mind.
It's extremely stereotyping but that's pretty much how I understood the atypical French part of the cultural influence, the rest is ideally western liberal culture underlined with an exceptionally paranoid and big brother esque surveillance centric Government, controlling through subterfuge and media, occasionally crossing the two.
Side topic, but I've never really understood the whole Gallente are Space French (or Space America) bit. Yes, I know what the lore states - but doesn't it also state they were colonists from Tau Ceti for centuries if not millennia before migrating through the EVE gate? So .. France (? 30 thousand years ago) --> Tau Ceti (25-30 thousand years ago) --> New Eden --> then a dark age after the EVE gate collapses and then et voila! Still space French?!?
It's like saying any of the cultures of Modern earth resemble that of the first Homo sapiens to emerge out of Africa. Except on a longer timescale.
Anyway, returning you to the regular programming.
That's why they removed most PF references to space french afaik.
Uh... Besides the structure of the government that might be inspired of it, the Fed is hardly like France at all, except in the naming flavour... France is a super centralized society and still retains a lot of its Gaullist mindset and Bonapartist administrative structure. It's also hardly a melting pot of cultures where culture is actually enforced and stenghtened by various old national bodies whose sole purpose is the preservation of the language, culture, etc.
Really, it's closer to the US, without being a mirror of the US (fortunately...).
Also there are undercurrents of anti-immigrant sentiments almost everywhere anyway. France is like any other.
Art imitating, yeah, sure, but copycats... bleh.
Eh-- fair enough. I suggested France largely because the U.S. doesn't really have a dominant national ethnicity (it does have a diminishingly dominant demographic, but it's "of European descent," not "Irish," for instance). The U.S. is a nation of immigrants in which each wave ends up complaining about the next wave; the Gallente Federation has had fewer immigrants, it seems, than planetary inductees, and the ethnic Gallente have something closely resembling a lock on power, such as it is.
But, I suppose it's really more U.S. -ish.
But that's the thing isn't it ? The Federation have around 35% native gallente (followed by 33% minmatar or something, too lazy to check the demographics article...). France has 11% immigrants, from which 7,5% are non EU originated. The 89% rest is still more or less pure french. And the country still positions itself 6th in the world (the US are first and have 43M, which is around 15%).
I doubt that we can find RL examples of demographics like the Federation has. Though the US can be closer if we considered their descent dating back to the first settlers and waves of immigrants.
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Lyn:
Hm. Point. ... Possibly the EU, if it went so far as to become a nation, itself? And went, somehow, very libertarian and very ergonomics-friendly all at once?
Vikarion:
Ah, how to highlight this....
As you might or might not already know, my wife and I worked as English teachers in Korea for a year. The worthy gent who ran the academy we worked at was a Samsung executive, and highly successful in essentially all aspects of his life except for ... the academy. It had been his wife's, originally, and he had taken over her successful school when she had a nervous breakdown. He was slowly running it into the ground. He tended to take his life-lessons from his time at Samsung and assume that they applied equally well to an educational setting, rendering him essentially a Korean PHB (pointy-haired boss, ala "Dilbert").
I was head teacher there for several months, which meant nightly meetings with the boss-- and a regular earful of his questions and opinions.
One of the things I most remember about the boss was how much he hated working with English-speaking Westerners. American, Canadian, British, Aussie, Kiwi, didn't matter: he really didn't get us at all. To him, we were cold and mercenary to the point of treachery; we did the job, and only the job, and resented anything that asked us to go above and beyond the call (especially, anything we weren't "on the clock" for). He felt that our employment should produce a bond of loyalty, that we should be delighted to come to his mandatory Christmas party (on Christmas morning-- actually it turned out to be quite an event to remember, so we only really resented it ahead of time), that we should be inspired to throw our very souls into our work. It was what we were, what we'd signed on not only to do, but to be: teachers at his school.
He viewed a couple of teachers who bailed out on us (via plane ticket home) as flat-out traitors; their names became bywords for treason, along the lines of "Quisling" or "Hnolku." I'd have found this understandable for the first month or two, maybe, but the boss dwelled on it, still holding it as a personal affront months after the fact.
To us, he was a petty tyrant who thought our employment contracts extended to pretty much all aspects of our lives. The Korean teachers, however, pretty much took it in stride (though some of his lousy management decisions were another matter).
A good indicator of the difference in attitude was on the subject of morale. The boss considered morale essentially irrelevant. Text of actual conversation from a time when even the best of our teachers were refusing to do any substantial out-of-classroom work (leaving me, as head teacher, holding the bag) and treating the administration with scathing contempt:
Me: "[Boss], we've got a problem with morale."
Boss: "Eeeh. All my time at Samsung, I have seen this. Sixty percent always discontented. If they want to go, they can go."
Me: "Well, what about one hundred percent?"
Boss: "One hundred percent always discontented about something."
... and he would hear no more of it.
That's probably a better guide to the attitudes of a successful Korean businessman failing at being an educator than to the attitudes of successful Korean educators, of course.
On the other hand, he was also running a charitable foundation, trying to ease some of the suffering in North Korea. He was having serious trouble getting donations from other Koreans, and he found the more charitable habits of Americans very confusing considering that he thought we were a pack of mercenaries. A lot of his questions focused on that.
Vikarion, I do recognize that Americans are hard workers and will often set aside personal qualms, etc., to be good members of the team-- but I tend to attribute that mostly to not wanting to get stuck looking for work. Middle and working class wages haven't been stagnating with the consent of the middle and working class; they've been stagnating regardless of worker complaints, and the middle and working class have lacked the leverage to reverse the trend. It's service to a group for the sake of the individual versus service to a group, for the sake of the group, which then looks after the individual.
The difference I'm pointing to is a bone-deep cultural distinction. It goes beyond my old boss's miserable managerial style as applied to a school; this is stuff his wife, also, had to struggle with. It's a basic difference in the framework behind all sorts of moral or category judgments. It's cultural, and it's difficult to overestimate how deep it goes.
The U.S. and Gallente Federations are two different nations (and one is fictitious), but the Gallente essentially share values we recognize (rights, separation of powers, yadda yadda). Dial back that desperate American productivity a bit, and you've got something pretty consistent with our cultural principles-- up to and including getting up in the business of more authoritarian sorts.
The Caldari function more like an East Asian mulligan (with European faces) wholly ruled by a coalition of zaibatsu.
The U.S. may see corporate power on the rise, but we broadly recognize that as a corruption of our system and society. The Caldari, on the other hand, trust a group of corporations to have their best interests at heart.
There's a shortage of sane Americans who will do any such thing, and for good reason: we understand our corporations to be profit-seeking financial ventures first and last, to which we generally owe no more than we are paid for. The Caldari corporation-as-custodian (or nation, or even family) thing is alien to us.
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Lyn:
Hm. Point. ... Possibly the EU, if it went so far as to become a nation, itself? And went, somehow, very libertarian and very ergonomics-friendly all at once?
Probably... Though the Federation is already hardly a Nation, just a charter signed by millions of planetary/space states.
The main difference between the EU and the Federation atm is that firstly, citizens directly vote for their president in the Federation (thanks to Duvailer), while in the EU they just vote for their european deputies, and secondly, that the Federation is also a strong entity with a full capable military and executive power, which the EU mostly lacks currently, even with the growing presence of the Eurocorps.
With that in mind, maybe that the Fed could be considered like a future version of the EU yeah, structure wise as well as economically wise.
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(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.
lol what?
It's actually possible. Social mobility in the U.S. has nose-dived lately; there are swaths of Europe that are ahead of us in that respect.
The State's a meritocracy, so, in principle, people should be promoted according to their abilities more than their origins. There's of course the unreachable "CEO" caste, but I'd compare that to being a Kennedy or a Bush. Mind you, as in the U.S., a lot probably depends on whether the meritocracy is working as intended. With Heth's recent reforms, Caldari social mobility is likely pretty good.
I suppose we have to first define what social mobility is. I read it as the ability for one generation to be better off than the last vs where a person is today in comparison to 5 or 10 years ago.
To continue the "CEO caste" example: Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Eisenhower, Truman (75% of modern Presidents) come from what I would argue are humble, if not austere, beginnings.
I agree there are countries in Europe where the difference between their poorest and richest is much lower, but is there any difference in mobility?
For the Caldari State, even in when everything is working "right," there is still a career pyramid. In addition, unlike in say the US or Europe, that pyramid is more rigid. In the US or Europe, it is possible to create your own pyramid (form a company or organization) and as your pyramid rises, so does your social class. I do not think it is straight-forward in the functioning meritocracy State to create new companies or organizations.
The individual in the State must rise through the ranks, directly competing against everyone around them for the fewer and fewer positions as you climb the corporate ladder. There is no room for 2nd best and they do not advance beyond the position they are in. If it is cyclical, they may get lucky and be #1 in the next cycle or they may run into a "fast burner" - someone so damn good that they get promoted first opportunity they get. This also creates the problem of promotion to the point of incompetence, where an individual gets promoted into a role they are simply not good at because they were really good at the role they were in.
Thus, I disagree with the idea that there is more social mobility in the State than in the US or EU.
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orange:
I read "social mobility" to be pretty much this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility).
Note the country comparison.
I'm not saying that social mobility in the Caldari State is higher than it is in the U.S. (much less the E.U.); we have only limited data and the fact that Heth's reforms occurred.
I'm saying that the idea's not laugh-worthy. That's all.
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Aria, so you are saying that it is both inter and intra generational for you?
Social mobility can be the change in status between someone (or a group) and their parents/previous family generations ("inter-generational"); or over the change during one's lifetime ("intra-generational").
edit:
I also have to dig into the numbers presented in the studies the wiki article sources and understand the magnitude of the differences in social mobility. A society with greater equality should have lower magnitude of social mobility, while one with less equality provides the potential for large magnitude change in social standing. For example, someone moving up in social standing in Denmark is unlikely to go from living in a trailer park to owning a mansion, the quantity of either in a high equality society is much lower.
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See, the thing is, Aria, I know quite a few successful businesses around here where that Korean's attitude would be considered positively benevolent.
Much of the attitude I have managed to extract from many employees is essentially that they owe it to their company to make it successful, while the attitude of many bosses (including me, to be honest) is that employees are a resource, and nothing more.
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(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.
lol what?
The US has one of the worst social mobility ratings in the Western world. The Rich stay Rich and the Poor stay Poor. The demographics entry for the Caldari specifically states that families have gone from Executives to Janitors in three generations and vice versa.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571417-how-prevent-virtuous-meritocracy-entrenching-itself-top-repairing-rungs
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I've not read much of this but what I have seen is the proposed notion that the Caldari=Future US or simply the Caldari are most like the US. I've also seen the idea that the Caldari are more like the US than the Gallente.
To address these:
- Caldari=US - wrong on so many fundamental levels, Japan or Germany are much closer to becoming Caldari. Let me explain in what may be a drawn out way. Personally I think that the most interesting part of a culture is the way they work, the entire attitude to it and the structure around the person and how work gets done but of course that isn't the only part of a culture. So lets do some culture comparisons to work out whether the Caldari are like the US or like let's say Germany.
Firstly lets look at law enforcement, the Caldari mega corporations have private security firms which are composed completely of employees who answer to their megacorp not the state judicial body, in the US they have elected officials amongst the forces and are tied into the judiciary and they have a federal division, in Germany the police have zero elected officials and are answerable only to their corresponding German state and state judiciary. Germany - 1, US - 0.
Second, let's look at the education and employment system. In the Caldari state you complete your education and start working (full time) with a company under your megacorp that you normally work with for the rest of your life slowly working your way up and you can't be unemployed unless you want to fall through the cracks, In the US you do education and get a degree then mope around for a year then get a job for 5 years then mope around for a year and get a job based on previous experience and such and such also you have part time work to some degree, In Germany you do education do an apprenticeship or university then start working with a company you'll work with normally until you die or the company does you rarely switch jobs and you DO NOT have gaps in employment if you do you're considered lazy and people simply won't hire you, also practically no part time work is offered in Germany full time is the vast stretching majority. Germany - 1, US - 0.
I mean, do you get what I'm saying yet, I know I haven't even done the standard at least three points but do I really need to. Of all western nations the US is a terrible example, especially with their focus on the individual and short term and not to mention their religious beliefs. Germany is so much closer, just comparing the things I mentioned about the US. Germany has a much greater focus on the collective and the long term (their political system is built to create long term planning) and the extent of their spirituality has only added to the nature of their collectivist attitude and isn't in your face religious like the US is.
- US is like Caldari more than Gallente - this is like saying that ancient Kazakhstan is more like Switzerland than ancient Siberia. The Caldari and Gallente are more like each other than they'll ever be like the US from my point of view. What I'm trying to say, and lets go super simple, is saying a banana is more like a machine gun than an orange is isn't really saying much at all and thinking that that somehow makes the banana a machine gun in any form is probably not the best development you could have made from the situation.
I may just be temporarily hopping in, I'm tired so if I'm made any spelling mistakes forgive me.
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deleted - discussion is entirely tangent, I would have to generate graphs and stuff to explain my questioning of the data.
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I don't desire to do a full reply at the moment, Kunarian, but I do wonder if you've looked at some of the things regarding law enforcement in the U.S., as well as private military organizations.
First, we have privatized security forces of one sort or another all over the place. Second, many, many of our prisons are actually privately run. For example, Corrections Corporation of America alone has responsibility for at least 70k inmates. Third, I don't know if you've noticed, but America is HUGE on private military contractors. Also known as, essentially, corporate soldiers. Blackwater, or whatever it is now, announced not too long ago that they could field as much as a brigade - that is, an average of around 4000 troops. And if you think that American megacorporations aren't willing to use force, or to hire contractors/build their own, then you really do need to research some of them.
Oh, and yes, if it is truly a megacorporation, it probably lives in America, or at least has a second home here. :P
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(Caldari) have a lot more social mobility than the US.
lol what?
The US has one of the worst social mobility ratings in the Western world. The Rich stay Rich and the Poor stay Poor. The demographics entry for the Caldari specifically states that families have gone from Executives to Janitors in three generations and vice versa.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571417-how-prevent-virtuous-meritocracy-entrenching-itself-top-repairing-rungs
Concerning the Caldari State, I think both argument are valid, in either way.
1) Considering the meritocratic system it seems logical that professional advancement opportunities would be here and very real.
2) It is also worth considering that it's a very collectivist society where only ONE compagny, the mega, controls everything, then it obviously has to reduce a lot the opportunities for social mobility. You cannot obviously create your own business and be successful at it, you cannot bypass all the ladder, and the more you advance in said ladder, the less positions available.
Eventually I don't think social mobilities can be easily stated as superior or inferior when comparing the US and the Caldari State, maybe they are, maybe not. But I would tend to think that in the State you have a damn lot of opportunities, nothing is closed to you, but they are what they are : opportunities, where the actual accomplishment can be a lot more difficult to attain.
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Second, let's look at the education and employment system. In the Caldari state you complete your education and start working (full time) with a company under your megacorp that you normally work with for the rest of your life slowly working your way up and you can't be unemployed unless you want to fall through the cracks, In the US you do education and get a degree then mope around for a year then get a job for 5 years then mope around for a year and get a job based on previous experience and such and such also you have part time work to some degree, In Germany you do education do an apprenticeship or university then start working with a company you'll work with normally until you die or the company does you rarely switch jobs and you DO NOT have gaps in employment if you do you're considered lazy and people simply won't hire you, also practically no part time work is offered in Germany full time is the vast stretching majority. Germany - 1, US - 0.
That is simply not really true. Part time work is the new curse of the german employment these days, that has appeared in the last decade to prevent unemployment to spike like in other countries. The real reason why Germany has such a low unemployment ratio is actually because something like a quarter of their workers actually work part time with misery salaries. Most are ok with it since they consider that part time job is better than no job. But that still means that a quarter of Germany actually live under the poverty line with salaries under 600-800 € per month (which is extremely low for a country like Germany) since I don't think they get much help from the state since they still have a job.
I can agree with the rest since it's the theory, even if in practice i'm not sure it's always true for the no gaps and the apprenticeship, but they are still praised as a model for that specific part of their jobs.
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I can agree with the rest since it's the theory, even if in practice i'm not sure it's always true for the no gaps and the apprenticeship, but they are still praised as a model for that specific part of their jobs.
I'm not pretending to be an expert on German society but from what I know they are much tighter on gaps in employment and the like than other countries. Anyway I wasn't really trying to say that Germany=Caldari, rather that America is a bad example and just because you can go "look america has lots of private things!" doesn't mean they are Caldari at all. I'm not going to do any more replies to this topic simply because I'd rather not get into too much of a debate in my first few days on the forum (plus I'd rather put effort into my character development). I've given my opinion, have fun with the debate!
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Eventually I don't think social mobilities can be easily stated as superior or inferior when comparing the US and the Caldari State, maybe they are, maybe not. But I would tend to think that in the State you have a damn lot of opportunities, nothing is closed to you, but they are what they are : opportunities, where the actual accomplishment can be a lot more difficult to attain.
Well, i agree that direct comparisons are a bit 'apples to oranges' but we can probably say with some confidence that a fictitious nation state that is supposed to be famous for social mobility is not like a real nation state that is famous for not having social mobility.
Seriously. Go look at some figures. America has less social mobility than Britain, which still has it's entrenched class system. Read the Demographics article on the Caldari (which I see as being the new baseline for the State, taking precedence over older impressions, mentions, fiction etc) which says that the State is famed for social mobility (except for the VERY top and the VERY bottom.)
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Regarding german (un)employment Lyn is partly correct. There are a lot of jobs that don't pay enough to get by, leading to the interesting predicament that you've got to go the job centre to request aid up to the same level as unemployment help would be - in jobs that do not serve as intermediates but are mostly created by an industry that is mostly using the fun technique of offering "full jobs" once you pass a certain time with them, but of course your contracts will get terminated just before that juicy threshold. Don't worry, you'll get an offer for a new job that'll have the very same benefit if you pass the first months! :lol:
On the other hand, no one has to starve, live on the streets or outside the society (you get a lot of benefits for public transport and public venues (public bath, library/culture, etc) while being jobless in general.
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Yeah I don't think a lot of european countries are already with tons of unemployed starving in the streets. That would be rather scary. I'm not sure how they do in countries like Spain or Greece, though... :/
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Caldari are a lot like the the EU, actually, at least if Germany was simultaneously also BAE Systems and Walmart. There isn't really a solid model of the State's structure in RL though - even less than there is for any of the other empires or factions barring the Blood Raiders, Sansha, and maybe a couple others that are way out there. I think we may be drifting off topic though.