Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Katrina Oniseki on 20 May 2013, 20:24
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I think it's really immersion breaking to have everybody assuming Yanala is dead and gone for good because of the chronicle. You people do realize that the tea is not ALWAYS fatal, right? She could have a soft clone, she could have survived it, she could be a giant deus ex machina.
I'm not trying to say any of you are doing it wrong, but rather trying to suggest that perhaps we should go with the flow of the story as it is delivered IC, not OOC. So far, there's no IC reason to just assume she's dead.
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+1. It's kind of facepalm-worthy seeing all these people jumping on the death train.
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This happens every time there's content released that our characters wouldn't have access to. This is far from a unique occurrence.
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I think it would have been nice to have stated in the Chronicle what was publicly known about Yanala's death. Always there's this balancing act with PF Chrons as we try and work out what is publicly known, what is known if you throw a little money at finding out and what is 'holy of holies' 'sub-rosa' classified.
I know I screwed up talking about Yanala's death to Tatiana at one point because I sort of assumed that they'd have publicised her death as a suicide without mentioning it was ordered.
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This happens every time there's content released that our characters wouldn't have access to. This is far from a unique occurrence.
I think it would have been nice to have stated in the Chronicle what was publicly known about Yanala's death. Always there's this balancing act with PF Chrons as we try and work out what is publicly known, what is known if you throw a little money at finding out and what is 'holy of holies' 'sub-rosa' classified.
It would make life so much easier, but I'm fairly certain Abraxas is on record for being in favor of "if you can read it, its knowable to you" school of thought. Certain chronicles, like Uplifted, wall-bang months of previous story work in a heart beat ; _ :
An easier way to integrate people's immersion breaking assumptions is to argue the counter point faithfully. It can certainly make for some interesting conversation.
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I like dramatic irony. I wish more people did.
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You people are doing it wrong.
The seeping bitterness tastes sweet.
But I feel you Kat, I really do - and without any sarcasm. This sort of "metapsychic" that tends to plague the EVE RP scene is why I stopped blogging ICly on Vince. I noticed people doing this not only with released chronicles but also with character blog some of these people were considered the better end of EVE RP folks.
Anyhow I digresss. This is just one blip among many and it will never change, people do it for what ever various reasons, which among one is to feel like 'winning' the game. Only real solution to this is roll with it and HTFU, unfortunately.
Just remember;
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/5783c19c39b3da8350d0c3ea7dbdbed6/tumblr_mig9oxI2P11qzfyrto1_500.png)
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Easy to fix. CCP just needs to give IC sources for any chronicle or anything like that which they publish. It would slightly crimp some creative style, but vastly improve the usage of their material in game.
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It was brought up as an issue at one of the panels at Fanfest, and was interpreted as "we'd like you guys to be RP police kthx" and did not get a positive response as a result.
I care as little for it as the next person but there's not much we can do short of calling people conspiracy theorists. :P
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It happens all the time, and the derp is strong.
There was the one linking the ooc chronicle IC in the IGS if i recall too? "SEE SHES DEAD"
*facepalm*
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It happens all the time, and the derp is strong.
There was the one linking the ooc chronicle IC in the IGS if i recall too? "SEE SHES DEAD"
*facepalm*
Yeah. I reported that one.
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It was brought up as an issue at one of the panels at Fanfest, and was interpreted as "we'd like you guys to be RP police kthx" and did not get a positive response as a result.
It was brought up last year as well to Abraxas, who said he wasn't interested in limiting his storytelling tools that much, nor was he interested in unreliable narrators all that much (since keeping track of what the PF says without having to account for whether it was supposed to be true or not is already too much work).
Delegate Zero seemed more receptive to the idea of unreliable narrators as a tool of fiction, but was called away before I could discuss it more with him.
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I want to know how the hell Heth got away with murdering a war hero in front of witnesses for THIS long. There are so many people who would have known that she'd been successfully recovered from her clone bay - especially since her heinous offence, not firing the Oblivion at Home, wouldn't have been known until AFTER she'd emerged from the vat.
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Perpetual defection is the only strategy left when tit-for-tat is not an option.
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The problem with this sort of thing is, if there's a conclusion that it's perfectly to normal, if a bit bold, to draw, but is established to be true by an OOC source... It's then kind of impossible to roleplay your character having come to that conclusion organically, even if they would have without the information. Since people will assume your godmoding.
Then again, some people do have characters that always have to right, which is kinda annoying.
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everyone will cheat, especially if they are against you.
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What if I were to tell you I created a Minmatar whose magical tattoo depicts the Admiral drinking poisoned tea?
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What if I were to tell you I created a Minmatar whose magical tattoo depicts the Admiral drinking poisoned tea?
I'd ask where the hell you were partying.
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No point getting upset about something that has been happening since EVE started.
Just deal with it like in the past, point a finger and laugh at the village idiot.
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And what to do, if my other predictions (that were sounding like crazy, and still I think people think I am and these predictions are crazy), they were before the chronic, were confirmed by the chronic? :lol:
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IIRC, in the Fiction subforum of EVE Online, some mod stablished that chronicles that feature only private scenes (like this one, which happens inside the quarters of Heth, or the latest chronicle with Jamyl for example) are not known to us, but only explained so we as players know what's happening. But not our characters. Sorry but I don't have the time now to surf the web looking for the topic, though. :(
On the other hand, I agree with Gwen, sometimes it's just too obvious to be hidden for long, but since it was told OOC it's hard to know where the IC/OOC barrier lies. This case is clear in that sense, as some people in the mentioned topic are actually giving good arguments to why she is dead. Of course, there should be people arguing against that, but it's hard to argue for something you know is wrong. I remember something similair happened to old-seph because he had a theory that the Minmatarr and others (specially the Jove) had a parallel network of gates to move through for a number of reasons... and when the Elder Fleet came, he could no longer use that argument because it was OOC knowledge that the Elder Fleet had been built on such a place; or when he disliked Jamyl.
So, I guess the point here, as in regard to the topic of arguing if someone is or not dead, depends on how good the arguments are. If someone comes with valid arguments that don't use OOC knowledge, I would agree they could have come to those conclussions had they not had OOC help. Of course, it certainly helped probably, but at least that char bothered to argue with IC knowledge, which is good. If they don't...
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Perpetual defection is the only strategy left when tit-for-tat is not an option.
The strangest thing to see is an aged tyrant, and Heth is showing more than a little gray around the temples these days.
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The fact that Yanala's been gone a bit could raise concerns sure, but I have to agree with others here about flat out saying 'she's dead, Jim.' Speculation is one thing, but some times I see an outline of why people think she's dead that's basically an outline of the damned chronicle.
I mean in private between some people RPing is one thing, sure. But grand accusations on a major hub like Summit or IGS? ....eh. How hard would it be to even get files on what happened? Not even directly related, but semi-related. For instance...purchase order of the suicide tea to a station known to hold Yanala's clones, or perhaps a special transportation manifest with off exclusions, potentially hinting at a high level person being transported. Or what about absence of evidence?
"Hey Jiaasu, where's the records for that clone post-decant? I can't find treatment logs to file for her," said Viako.
Jiaasu gave his co-worker a quick glance from his side before forcing his sight back to his screen, hoping to continue his existence as a simple data manager and stay away from any unneeded politics. "Quarantined. Orders from our Supervisor. Check your mail and drop the topic.
Viako blinked before scrolling through his mail box on a separate entopic overlay. He furrowed his brow at the message from their boss, wondering why someone as strictly adherent to perfect record keeping would keep a record hidden. His stomach churned slightly as butterflies of anxiety fluttered within him. Goh never did anything like this, not even for Oritsuu. The young data entry specialist couldn't help but wonder what was going on. 'I have a bad feeling about this,' he thought to himself.
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I've just gotten to the point where I treat all the "No, this is what happened! Really!" types as probably nuts. They're the Eve universes version of Obama birthers or flat earthers. Smile and nod and don't make eye contact with them.
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I've just gotten to the point where I treat all the "No, this is what happened! Really!" types as probably nuts. They're the Eve universes version of Obama birthers or flat earthers. Smile and nod and don't make eye contact with them.
Don't tell me you're one of those round-earthers. What a ridiculous notion that is. Can you honestly not understand that the people on the bottom of the world would fall off, that those on the slopes would have to cling on for their very lives, and that all the oceans would drain away?
Try pouring water on a ball and see what happens to it. Does it coalesce into tiny oceans or lakes, or does it run off, leaving at most a very thin layer of moisture that quickly dries up into nothing? There's your round earth theory.
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I've just gotten to the point where I treat all the "No, this is what happened! Really!" types as probably nuts. They're the Eve universes version of Obama birthers or flat earthers. Smile and nod and don't make eye contact with them.
Don't tell me you're one of those round-earthers. What a ridiculous notion that is. Can you honestly not understand that the people on the bottom of the world would fall off, that those on the slopes would have to cling on for their very lives, and that all the oceans would drain away?
Try pouring water on a ball and see what happens to it. Does it coalesce into tiny oceans or lakes, or does it run off, leaving at most a very thin layer of moisture that quickly dries up into nothing? There's your round earth theory.
Ah, but see. What if it was a sponge ball? Would the water run off, or soak in?
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Regarding the actual posting of chronicle links in the thread: There is an ISD (I think it's LackofFaith) who patrols the IGS for that kind of thing and has made it abundantly clear in the past that 'private' chronicles are exactly that - private. Reporting it will probably get that taken care off, at least.
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Problem solved (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/report-admiral-yanalas-clone-failed-to-activate/). :(
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Problem solved (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/report-admiral-yanalas-clone-failed-to-activate/). :(
Problem solved? Not quite. Two months is a ridiculously long time for them to sit on their asses before revealing such a crucial piece of information that they should have had in their hands almost immediately. All it does at this point is feed into the conspiracy theories.
The CEP investigation will probably reveal that she actually did clone successfully two months ago - and that is when the shit will hit the fan.
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I meant the specific problem of characters knowing she was dead without sufficient evidence.
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It is a shame to see people building up a conspiracy theory and then expect to be taken serious. :|
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I am not sure a lot of people really fall for it... As far as I know we all know better and someone doing this is definitely not going to get a lot of admiration, be it OOCly or ICly, except from a fringe of naive roleplayers maybe.
Characters trying to win every time are rarely the ones held in the best esteem in my experience. Why bothering so much ?
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I'm just going to stop posting about Yanala.
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It would be great if Yanala is not really dead. Perhaps peeps would then more obvious see that they a staining their characters interpretation of events with OOC information.
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More on topic:
Oh, I'd agree that people telling riveting tales of the exact details of Yanala's death are laying it on a bit too thick, maybe.
But given my ideas about the balance of power in the State, and that there is no such thing as a happy ending, Yanala's fate seemed fairly obvious to Shiori ever since the fall of Shiigeru. Not to mention the local log full of the Little Doomsday Device that Couldn't. The discussion seemed like a natural place to voice it.
If people feel this somehow tarnishes my reputation, that's just lovely, I guess.
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Don't read this sort of thing. Honestly, it kills RP. I couldn't figure out what some people were talking about in Summit because apparently Chronicle knowledge *was already assumed*.
That's daft.
But honestly, it is really a fault of the writers. I used to love Abraxas writing style for example, but his favorite focus subjects were uber-secretive matters, which my character just wouldn't have access too.
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Personally I feel no shame for ICly assuming she's dead. The State has a suicide culture, and losing the battle for Caldari Prime of all places is a pretty serious thing. It's been my hope from the start that she'd suicide as it's a neat cultural aspect.
The fact that Heth was involved is something my character has no idea of and would never suspect, but nothing wrong with her thinking that Yanala might have offed herself when it's rather common for Caldari to do so.
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Personally I feel no shame for ICly assuming she's dead. The State has a suicide culture, and losing the battle for Caldari Prime of all places is a pretty serious thing. It's been my hope from the start that she'd suicide as it's a neat cultural aspect.
The fact that Heth was involved is something my character has no idea of and would never suspect, but nothing wrong with her thinking that Yanala might have offed herself when it's rather common for Caldari to do so.
Actually, shouldn't we be getting all sorts of tales of junior and mid level officers going all seppuku after the battle was lost?
Dem people gonna demand some suicidin' for that one.
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We should, yes. One of the reasons I was really hoping for Yanala to suicide and am happy that she did is because we haven't heard nearly enough cases of it in PF, despite the fact it's supposed to be rather common for the State.
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Whats the point of capsuleers suiciding if they just soft clone and keep on trucking?
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Whats the point of capsuleers suiciding if they just soft clone and keep on trucking?
It's not suicide if the capsuleer doesn't have the fortitude to terminate their clones first.
However, was mainly talking about baseliners. Yanala was just a special case.
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Whats the point of capsuleers suiciding if they just soft clone and keep on trucking?
It's not suicide if the capsuleer doesn't have the fortitude to terminate their clones first.
However, was mainly talking about baseliners. Yanala was just a special case.
Nope, she wasn't. Heth (maybe with Navy CEO, dunno if she was actually involved or was just supporting him) discharged her from the navy and revoked capsuleer contract. The rest was determined.
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I think we're at the point with Heth where almost any act of tyranny is no longer inconceivable to the majority. Post-declaration that he has ruined the largest Corporation that has ever existed and wishes to nationalise the rest of them - anything can be believed.
Seriously. Who DIDN'T see this coming? Why should our characters be less genre-savvy?
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Because technically the cronicle does not explicit state that Yanala dies. Someone (Heth?) could have pushed the cup out of her hand or the tea was not poisened in the first place. So even with our OOC knowledge it is assumptions that we believe she is dead and who is to blame. This is in fact the perfect situation for the CCP event team to teach people not to use OOC knowledge with such overconfidence unless they want the risk of being labeled as crazy conspiracy theorists.
And let us not forget the Tahaki Karin (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=30716) option.
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Whats the point of capsuleers suiciding if they just soft clone and keep on trucking?
It's not suicide if the capsuleer doesn't have the fortitude to terminate their clones first.
However, was mainly talking about baseliners. Yanala was just a special case.
Nope, she wasn't. Heth (maybe with Navy CEO, dunno if she was actually involved or was just supporting him) discharged her from the navy and revoked capsuleer contract. The rest was determined.
That part bugs me. Before this point Heth didn't have that sort of direct control over the Navy, and for many of us that is an extremely important detail. :psyccp:
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There was a chronicle? *swearword* This is seriously the problem with OOC knowledge - even if you don't have it, the fact that you could have had it makes it a problem.
Apologies, folks.
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This detail might lead to the beans being spilled, since if there's that much support/mourning for Yanala it is safe to assume that the navy (or, the people it consists of) feel similar. The chronicle gives the impression that the non-CPD witness doesn't really like what's going on.
Because technically the cronicle does not explicit state that Yanala dies. Someone (Heth?) could have pushed the cup out of her hand or the tea was not poisened in the first place. So even with our OOC knowledge it is assumptions that we believe she is dead and who is to blame. This is in fact the perfect situation for the CCP event team to teach people not to use OOC knowledge with such overconfidence unless they want the risk of being labeled as crazy conspiracy theorists.
It is possible, yes, although I'd say that it is highly unlikely given that the Navy talks about a cloning accident that will likely have happened the instant she was killed, two months ago, over Luminaire. If that happened, the chronicle couldn't have taken place. Any situation constructed to circumvent these facts is so complicated and unlikely that it'd be utterly sad if they did use it, especially to teach the mentioned lesson.
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One hopes the CCPers have better things to do with their lives than being the RP Moral Police, in any case.
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You mean her and Gariushi are not waking up in Venal and planning to lead the Guristas in righting the ship of State?
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Whats the point of capsuleers suiciding if they just soft clone and keep on trucking?
It's not suicide if the capsuleer doesn't have the fortitude to terminate their clones first.
However, was mainly talking about baseliners. Yanala was just a special case.
Nope, she wasn't. Heth (maybe with Navy CEO, dunno if she was actually involved or was just supporting him) discharged her from the navy and revoked capsuleer contract. The rest was determined.
That part bugs me. Before this point Heth didn't have that sort of direct control over the Navy, and for many of us that is an extremely important detail. :psyccp:
Ugh... then how did he took Caldari Prime?
As for me, Executor is corresponds to the head of executive branch of power, and this implies control over army.
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Ugh... then how did he took Caldari Prime?
As for me, Executor is corresponds to the head of executive branch of power, and this implies control over army.
You're Diana Kim right? I of course defer to your superior expertise in the minutia of Caldari PF.
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Ugh... then how did he took Caldari Prime?
As for me, Executor is corresponds to the head of executive branch of power, and this implies control over army.
Heth does not have actual control over the Navy itself.
Ultimate authority with the Navy rests with the entire CEP as a cooperative entity, not him alone. The CEP directs the War Council, which in turn directs the group of State military forces such as Army, Navy, Marines, and other black ops groups. Keep in mind that the Caldari Navy has not once acted against the orders of the CEP. It was Templis Dragonaurs on the scene against SuVee during the live event, not the Caldari Navy.
Heth was able to make use of the Navy for other operations using his influence, not actual authority. He convinced the CEP to green-light the operation against the Federation during YC110, for example. So the War Council drew up plans to invade, and the rest is history. Same with the purge of DUST soldiers. Everything the Navy does must be approved by the CEP. They are not Heth's lapdogs.
There have been multiple chronicles and chapters in the books that clearly show the Navy does not answer to Heth. The highest ranking and leading officer of the Caldari Navy, Admiral Mininela Erinen herself, directly resists and threatens Heth by often reminding him that he does not give her orders.
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How exactly things happened is a bit muddy, but personally I assume that Heth simply has thrown around a lot of Home Guard and CPD forces, with the Navy offering a handful of capital assets in support. (Except for the initial rush into Caldari Prime, which was a proper assault.)
"Executor" title is the variant of Chief Executive Officer in Caldari Providence Directorate. In that role, Heth has the right to distribute resources, which may or may not extend into delivering military hardware (and their associated troops). However, considering that the other corporate security forces did not maintain heavier presence in Caldari Prime, I assume this is limited to arranging logistics and production, not giving direct orders to troops.
While to us Heth appears as a nearly complete idiot, it is probably good to remember that "in his good moments" he can be quite charismatic.
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Ugh... then how did he took Caldari Prime?
As for me, Executor is corresponds to the head of executive branch of power, and this implies control over army.
Heth does not have actual control over the Navy itself.
Ultimate authority with the Navy rests with the entire CEP as a cooperative entity, not him alone. The CEP directs the War Council, which in turn directs the group of State military forces such as Army, Navy, Marines, and other black ops groups. Keep in mind that the Caldari Navy has not once acted against the orders of the CEP. It was Templis Dragonaurs on the scene against SuVee during the live event, not the Caldari Navy.
Heth was able to make use of the Navy for other operations using his influence, not actual authority. He convinced the CEP to green-light the operation against the Federation during YC110, for example. So the War Council drew up plans to invade, and the rest is history. Same with the purge of DUST soldiers. Everything the Navy does must be approved by the CEP. They are not Heth's lapdogs.
There have been multiple chronicles and chapters in the books that clearly show the Navy does not answer to Heth. The highest ranking and leading officer of the Caldari Navy, Admiral Mininela Erinen herself, directly resists and threatens Heth by often reminding him that he does not give her orders.
How about the last chronicle then? He was dealing with her subordinate, with just her presence.
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Ugh... then how did he took Caldari Prime?
As for me, Executor is corresponds to the head of executive branch of power, and this implies control over army.
Heth does not have actual control over the Navy itself.
Ultimate authority with the Navy rests with the entire CEP as a cooperative entity, not him alone. The CEP directs the War Council, which in turn directs the group of State military forces such as Army, Navy, Marines, and other black ops groups. Keep in mind that the Caldari Navy has not once acted against the orders of the CEP. It was Templis Dragonaurs on the scene against SuVee during the live event, not the Caldari Navy.
Heth was able to make use of the Navy for other operations using his influence, not actual authority. He convinced the CEP to green-light the operation against the Federation during YC110, for example. So the War Council drew up plans to invade, and the rest is history. Same with the purge of DUST soldiers. Everything the Navy does must be approved by the CEP. They are not Heth's lapdogs.
There have been multiple chronicles and chapters in the books that clearly show the Navy does not answer to Heth. The highest ranking and leading officer of the Caldari Navy, Admiral Mininela Erinen herself, directly resists and threatens Heth by often reminding him that he does not give her orders.
How about the last chronicle then? He was dealing with her subordinate, with just her presence.
You're missing the point. He was using influence on her, a different kind of power. Nobody is saying he doesn't have the influence to force somebody to take the tea. That is not the same as ordering the Caldari Navy to act against the wishes of the CEP and War Council.
There is a fine line between influence and authority, and a very clear and obvious difference between influence and law appointed command. If Heth had attempted what he did with Yanala in full sight of the CEP and rest of the people, he could have been stopped. He did it in private with only a few people there because he knew there was nobody there to say "Hey you can't do that!". For all we know, Heth might have threatened Admiral Erinen's family or something to force her to stop questioning him. That's influence, again, not the actual authority to command her.
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Ugh... then how did he took Caldari Prime?
As for me, Executor is corresponds to the head of executive branch of power, and this implies control over army.
Heth does not have actual control over the Navy itself.
Ultimate authority with the Navy rests with the entire CEP as a cooperative entity, not him alone. The CEP directs the War Council, which in turn directs the group of State military forces such as Army, Navy, Marines, and other black ops groups. Keep in mind that the Caldari Navy has not once acted against the orders of the CEP. It was Templis Dragonaurs on the scene against SuVee during the live event, not the Caldari Navy.
Heth was able to make use of the Navy for other operations using his influence, not actual authority. He convinced the CEP to green-light the operation against the Federation during YC110, for example. So the War Council drew up plans to invade, and the rest is history. Same with the purge of DUST soldiers. Everything the Navy does must be approved by the CEP. They are not Heth's lapdogs.
There have been multiple chronicles and chapters in the books that clearly show the Navy does not answer to Heth. The highest ranking and leading officer of the Caldari Navy, Admiral Mininela Erinen herself, directly resists and threatens Heth by often reminding him that he does not give her orders.
How about the last chronicle then? He was dealing with her subordinate, with just her presence.
You're missing the point. He was using influence on her, a different kind of power. Nobody is saying he doesn't have the influence to force somebody to take the tea. That is not the same as ordering the Caldari Navy to act against the wishes of the CEP and War Council.
There is a fine line between influence and authority, and a very clear and obvious difference between influence and law appointed command. If Heth had attempted what he did with Yanala in full sight of the CEP and rest of the people, he could have been stopped. He did it in private with only a few people there because he knew there was nobody there to say "Hey you can't do that!". For all we know, Heth might have threatened Admiral Erinen's family or something to force her to stop questioning him. That's influence, again, not the actual authority to command her.
Mybe then I should just go back and simply blow up stuff around >_<
Just from my opinion, being a head of the state implies ability to command armed forces and deploy them whenever you need.
Is there somewhere a statement of actual authorities of Executor?
Or just whatever he does is influence, but not authority?
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That part bugs me. Before this point Heth didn't have that sort of direct control over the Navy, and for many of us that is an extremely important detail. :psyccp:
He shouldn't, but he has ever since he singlehandedly got the Navy to invade Caldari Prime without anyone else being informed. :/ I am tempted to start ending all my IGS posts with the Caldari version of Carthago delenda est....
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I didn't find any news about the initial forming of the CPD, but:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/mega-corporations-announce-partnership-with-caldari-providence-directorate-1/
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ishukone-board-cedes-strategic-control-to-heth-markets-respond-positively-1/
"grant strategic control of industrial operations to Tibus Heth"
Politics:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/mixed-reactions-to-the-cpd-reform-plan/
Recent:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/cep-to-question-executive-officer-mininela-erinen-under-oath/
"[...]the questions will revolve around “Admiral Yanala's orders on the day of the Battle for Caldari Prime, her subsequent observance or refusal of those orders, whether the chain of command was properly followed in issuing the orders[...]"
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Uh oh, this has still the chance to take unexpected twists. :eek:
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Ugh... then how did he took Caldari Prime?
As for me, Executor is corresponds to the head of executive branch of power, and this implies control over army.
Heth does not have actual control over the Navy itself.
Ultimate authority with the Navy rests with the entire CEP as a cooperative entity, not him alone. The CEP directs the War Council, which in turn directs the group of State military forces such as Army, Navy, Marines, and other black ops groups. Keep in mind that the Caldari Navy has not once acted against the orders of the CEP. It was Templis Dragonaurs on the scene against SuVee during the live event, not the Caldari Navy.
Heth was able to make use of the Navy for other operations using his influence, not actual authority. He convinced the CEP to green-light the operation against the Federation during YC110, for example. So the War Council drew up plans to invade, and the rest is history. Same with the purge of DUST soldiers. Everything the Navy does must be approved by the CEP. They are not Heth's lapdogs.
There have been multiple chronicles and chapters in the books that clearly show the Navy does not answer to Heth. The highest ranking and leading officer of the Caldari Navy, Admiral Mininela Erinen herself, directly resists and threatens Heth by often reminding him that he does not give her orders.
How about the last chronicle then? He was dealing with her subordinate, with just her presence.
Nope, I just went back & re-read the relevant part.
He has a couple of CPD goons with him & Admiral Erinen is initially portrayed as looking concerned. She tries to defend her subordinate's actions but is cut off and Heth forces the issue.
Likely she calculated, correctly, that Heth would have his CPD escorts restrain or remove her if she tried to countermand him. And Yanala consents to drinking anyway, spitting defiance as she does.
If she survives to testify Heth is ended. At this point she is likely using Navy security people to make sure that she does survive to testify.
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Twists? The Broker shows up in Erinen's clone in a bid to extend the useful life of his pawn, uses Sleeper tech to fool the questioning process, is caught anyway because he overlooks a stupid detail.
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Twists? The Broker shows up in Erinen's clone in a bid to extend the useful life of his pawn, uses Sleeper tech to fool the questioning process, is caught anyway because he overlooks a stupid detail.
If the Broker comes within 100ft of this story the rage will be unbearable.
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Yeah. If that happens I'm fucking done. :P
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But what if my character has psychic abilities?
Have none of you thought of that?!
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"Describe in single words. Only the good things that come to your mind. About your mother."
"My mother... I'll tell you about my mother." *bang*
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But what if my character has psychic abilities?
Have none of you thought of that?!
Psychic? Really? Well, that's very - oh, would you look at the time! I really must be going...
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Just wait for Sunday. "Someone did an oopsie" with ingame news.
In case you haven't seen it and don't want to get spoiled, I recommend that you (a) avoid third-party sites publishing EVE news stream until Sunday and (b) do not Google admirals Erinen or Yanala.
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Looking forward to being disillusioned and enraged. :)
Btw. IMO Diana Kim is keeping brilliantly in character and providing much needed opposition. As usual we are missing characters on the "wrong" side.
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I do second on Diana being awesome.
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But what if my character has psychic abilities?
Have none of you thought of that?!
Well, it would make you definitely more akin to Jamyl :lol:
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But what if my character has psychic abilities?
Have none of you thought of that?!
An anguished soul is coming through...I'm sensing...a woman...lost in space...her last name begins...with a Y...
...I think she's talking about that one snow planet from The Empire Strikes Back. Neeeeeerd.
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Given that Andreus is staunchly anti-Heth and the circumstances surrounding Admiral Yanala's silence (and eventual death) were somewhat dubious, "Heth did her in" is far from an unreasonable assumption for Andreus to make. He had no idea Yanala was poisoned until the recent news article, though - he assumed that the "cloning" part of the "cloning accident" story was genuine, but the "accident" part wasn't.
Then again, Andreus assumes that pretty much any malfeasance in the Caldari State these days can be traced to Heth. He's kind of conveniently memory-holed the fact that there are scumbags in the State other than Heth and his supporters.
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Well, I am excited about what is going to happen next.
I must say the Live Event team is doing pretty well; though the Caldari arc here is a tad predictable and the player support a bit one side, the Gallente-Minmatar confrontations are superb and the Amarr event, that is going to be played out in DUST (http://dust514.com/news/2013/05/templar-manhunt-event-earn-rewards-and-test-drive-exclusive-dropsuits/), is looking to be really good.
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Then again, Andreus assumes that pretty much any malfeasance in the Caldari State these days can be traced to Heth. He's kind of conveniently memory-holed the fact that there are scumbags in the State other than Heth and his supporters.
Which seems a bit odd to me since Andreus seemed fairly anti-State/Corporate prior to the rise of Heth.
I must say the Live Event team is doing pretty well; though the Caldari arc here is a tad predictable and the player support a bit one side,
I think a part of it is predictable - Heth will be eventually removed from power. What happens after that is less certain.
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Which seems a bit odd to me since Andreus seemed fairly anti-State/Corporate prior to the rise of Heth.
Not so much. Even so, back then he didn't have very many people like Stitcher to remind him about the good side of Caldari society.
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Uriam Kador is apparently psychic, having ordered all those celebrations, and now the Amarr are winning FW.
/o\
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Uriam Kador is apparently psychic, having ordered all those celebrations, and now the Amarr are winning FW.
/o\
We've lost because WEAZL left, plain and simple. Annah Kitheran is hands down the best FC I've ever flown under, and an incredibly dedicated militiaman. Only now he's wandered off to Molden Heath to play pirate for a bit :P
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We were winning before his celebrations.
We are winning after.
Kador is clearly the reason we were losing.
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I hope Heth survives this shitstorm somehow, taking a huge fall from grace but not vanishing completely. I like the idea of disrupting everyone's expectations.
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I hope Heth survives this shitstorm somehow, taking a huge fall from grace but not vanishing completely. I like the idea of disrupting everyone's expectations.
Don't rain on my parade... :(
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I hope Heth survives this shitstorm somehow, taking a huge fall from grace but not vanishing completely. I like the idea of disrupting everyone's expectations.
Don't rain on my parade... :(
I know, I'm sorry. Karin Midular was a much better character to keep around than Tibus Heth.
It's just that, you know, I like surprises.
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I hope Heth survives this shitstorm somehow, taking a huge fall from grace but not vanishing completely. I like the idea of disrupting everyone's expectations.
Don't rain on my parade... :(
I know, I'm sorry. Karin Midular was a much better character to keep around than Tibus Heth.
It's just that, you know, I like surprises.
Guess he runs to the Empire? Maybe?
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I hope Heth survives this shitstorm somehow, taking a huge fall from grace but not vanishing completely. I like the idea of disrupting everyone's expectations.
Don't rain on my parade... :(
I know, I'm sorry. Karin Midular was a much better character to keep around than Tibus Heth.
It's just that, you know, I like surprises.
Guess he runs to the Empire? Maybe?
Not the safest of places, really. CEP would demand his return for trial, and since Heth would then be a powerless pawn wanted by the Amarr's ally, he would be swiftly handed over (doubtless with the expectation of reciprocation of some sort).
I would be amused if Heth ran to Mordu's Legion. He'd be safe with them, assuming he can continue to pay them to protect him.
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I hope Heth survives this shitstorm somehow, taking a huge fall from grace but not vanishing completely. I like the idea of disrupting everyone's expectations.
Don't rain on my parade... :(
I know, I'm sorry. Karin Midular was a much better character to keep around than Tibus Heth.
It's just that, you know, I like surprises.
Guess he runs to the Empire? Maybe?
Not the safest of places, really. CEP would demand his return for trial, and since Heth would then be a powerless pawn wanted by the Amarr's ally, he would be swiftly handed over (doubtless with the expectation of reciprocation of some sort).
I would be amused if Heth ran to Mordu's Legion. He'd be safe with them, assuming he can continue to pay them to protect him.
Except that he was the Empire's ally.
The Patriots are on the decline across the State and while the Provist and Patriots are not the same, he built his position on the power of the Patriot bloc and destroyed it in the process.
Ishukone is on the rise (grumble grumble) and is more inclined to trade with the Federation than fight them. The Empire needs the balance of power maintained.
That being said, the balance of power may not suffer if the Fed and Republic continue to be at odds. This opens up the Republic as a possibility for Heth's place of hiding. Especially if the Fed isn't going to hand-over Grene Broteau; taking Heth in and "protecting him" sets up a future trade.
Put another way, he does not have a lot of places to hide in the north and west.
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Mordu himself has already helped try to assassinate Heth and it seemed to be on idealogical reasons rather than a contract. Mordu's Legion has been fighting against the Provists pretty squarely for the last few months as well. I don't think Heth has a safe spot with Mordu.
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I don't actually care about what happens to Heth. I just want psycho botanist Kate Mulgrew back in charge of KK.
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Maybe Heth is going to the Guristas?
Considering their position with the State, they have been awfully quiet during this debacle.
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Regarding Heth, we now have new information, about Federation bringing forces on the border. I don't think that their appearance is random, and I believe that they should play some part in the story.
Some of my "psychic predictions" for this case:
1. Heth with dragonaurs can attack them right away, considering them as threat to the State and become hero once again (where succeed or not), or maybe will get support from navy (or not).
2. Federation may preparing some sort of attack, and after they do something stupid, Heth can appear like "Jamyl Sarum ver. 2.0" in man's clothes :lol:
Well, and if he will die as a hero, it will be a fitting end.
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I think those of you thinking Heth is still alive at this point may have your imaginations running wild. If the Federation provokes the State now, they are idiots, and I really hope CCP isn't going to make them look like idiots yet again.
Heth, if he's not dead already, is not going to escape this alive. That may be wishful thinking, but I don't see any way he escapes, nor will the megas allow him to die as a martyr.
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I think the Empire would keep him and protect him rather than sending him back to the CEP. That would be kind of a question of principles. "Someone takes refuge in the house of God, God protects him" kind of reasoning, in less cheesy.
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I can't see the Empire risking that at the cost of angering the rest of the megacorporate CEOs. If they decide to just default on their loan repayment (or simply delay them) that won't be good for the Amarr either. Keep in mind whoever takes the CEO seat at KK isn't likely to be too Heth-friendly either, which means Jamyl is going to be looking at a lot of unfriendly faces. Plus, this is the same guy who was making diplomatic overtures to the Minmatar, and who is not exactly a fellow traveller with the Amarr religion, I'm assuming.
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That's also valid.
Remember that less happened between the Fed and the Rep.
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I hope Heth survives this shitstorm somehow, taking a huge fall from grace but not vanishing completely. I like the idea of disrupting everyone's expectations.
Don't rain on my parade... :(
I know, I'm sorry. Karin Midular was a much better character to keep around than Tibus Heth.
It's just that, you know, I like surprises.
Guess he runs to the Empire? Maybe?
Not the safest of places, really. CEP would demand his return for trial, and since Heth would then be a powerless pawn wanted by the Amarr's ally, he would be swiftly handed over (doubtless with the expectation of reciprocation of some sort).
I would be amused if Heth ran to Mordu's Legion. He'd be safe with them, assuming he can continue to pay them to protect him.
Except that he was the Empire's ally.
The Patriots are on the decline across the State and while the Provist and Patriots are not the same, he built his position on the power of the Patriot bloc and destroyed it in the process.
Ishukone is on the rise (grumble grumble) and is more inclined to trade with the Federation than fight them. The Empire needs the balance of power maintained.
So? If Heth is ousted, he becomes a regular man with little support in the State. That's utterly useless to the Amarr. The Amarr are in the midst of a conflict with the Minmatar, and both sides are very keen on wiping the other out. They do need their allies (largely for the economic/tech benefits), and they've invested heavily into the Caldari State by this time (all those loans, etc).
It would make even less sense if Heth were to run to the Kingdom, as they are very well connected tradewise. I imagine Khanid II would be displeased if Jamyl took in Heth, as the CEP would likely put pressure upon him to use his influence to get Heth extradited.
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So? If Heth is ousted, he becomes a regular man with little support in the State.
As far as I understand, Heth, besides being an Executor, is a CEO of at least three corporations. You can, say, kill him, but to oust and made him "regular man"?..
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So? If Heth is ousted, he becomes a regular man with little support in the State.
As far as I understand, Heth, besides being an Executor, is a CEO of at least three corporations. You can, say, kill him, but to oust and made him "regular man"?..
This.
Kaalakiota will likely replace him soon, but he will remain CEO of Caldari Constructions and the other corp (dont remember the name)
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So? If Heth is ousted, he becomes a regular man with little support in the State.
As far as I understand, Heth, besides being an Executor, is a CEO of at least three corporations. You can, say, kill him, but to oust and made him "regular man"?..
This.
Kaalakiota will likely replace him soon, but he will remain CEO of Caldari Constructions and the other corp (dont remember the name)
Um... just CC, iirc. Heth owns majority stock in Caldari Constructions.
Ytiri's board of directors (which is largely owned by KK prior to EA) choose Heth to take the reigns. So presumably, KK says "Your out as KK's CEO and Ytiri will soon have a new CEO too."
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If the CEP imposes some sort of official sanction, it might include confiscation of his shares. In fact, if there is a mechanism to remove someone's citizenship with their Mega, or with the State, it would be strange if it didn't include taking away any shares they may own.
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If the CEP imposes some sort of official sanction, it might include confiscation of his shares. In fact, if there is a mechanism to remove someone's citizenship with their Mega, or with the State, it would be strange if it didn't include taking away any shares they may own.
I think such decision can make only CBT, but not CEP. Because, well, Megas can dump their own citizens, but I highly doubt they can dump other corp citizens.
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If the CEP imposes some sort of official sanction, it might include confiscation of his shares. In fact, if there is a mechanism to remove someone's citizenship with their Mega, or with the State, it would be strange if it didn't include taking away any shares they may own.
I think such decision can make only CBT, but not CEP. Because, well, Megas can dump their own citizens, but I highly doubt they can dump other corp citizens.
Heth has already shown control over the CBT by using executive orders to override the legal process. It's more likely that if he is removed, it will be by other means.
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Well, but he can't issue an executive order to counter the order taking away his ability to issue executive orders.
Unless he can use that power as an interrupt. :straight face:
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If the CEP imposes some sort of official sanction, it might include confiscation of his shares. In fact, if there is a mechanism to remove someone's citizenship with their Mega, or with the State, it would be strange if it didn't include taking away any shares they may own.
I think such decision can make only CBT, but not CEP. Because, well, Megas can dump their own citizens, but I highly doubt they can dump other corp citizens.
Heth has already shown control over the CBT by using executive orders to override the legal process. It's more likely that if he is removed, it will be by other means.
By a means of a bullet. Or flying brick. Because I can't imagine how a Mega will try to change another Mega's CEO without help of CBT.
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Considering what Heth has evidently done to Kaalakiota, if the KK board does not vote him out and put him on his ass, then I will be sorely disappointed. As far as Caldari Constructions goes, with 7 or 8 megacorporations aligned against him, it won't be hard to destroy him. If nothing else, they can have CFU (which they control) simply refuse to loan them any money. From the sound of the Caldari Financial System article, that would destroy them in a hurry, and make them vulnerable to all sorts of economic (and other) warfare.
That is assuming they don't just arrange for him to quietly disappear and, oh gee, what do you know, he has no next of kin. Stock is sold off to pay off his (many) debts and the megas devour it. I do not understand why people thing these are so insurmountable. Caldari law was written by the megacorporations, don't think that they never anticipated things like this. Extreme sanction exists for a reason.
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Unless he can use that power as an interrupt. :straight face:
Ha, great. :D
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Hmm, a thread with this title now derailed into speculations. The irony.
Heheheheh.
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I vote to let all the psychic predictions be handled by that one soothsayer lady who makes those occult posts on IGS along with foreboding statements about the people who respond. That would be pretty cool. "...and then an invisible hand will descend from the sleeping planet and you will know it by its name, Enheduanni, and, ooo, it will usher forth the Tower..."