Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silver Night on 19 Apr 2010, 14:49
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What the standings say, of course, is pretty well known. They don't like eachother.
Given that both a huge, sprawling organizations, though, I wonder if it might not be more complex. Overall they are competitors ofc, but they are also (I think) pragmatic. There might be times temporary alliances (perhaps on some local - planetary, system-wide, a few city blocks - level) might make a lot of sense.
What do ya'll think?
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I suspect that they don't get along in the sense of turf wars, but in general they don't exactly seek each other out in offensive operations. The cluster's still big enough for both of them. That's certainly the impression I recall getting from The Burning Life.
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I can't see any logical reason why Angels would co-operate with Guristas. It doesn't seem very beneficial to the Cartel as it is the most organised criminal organisation in EVE already and handles things by itself pretty well.
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I think Angels are very much old school mafia style criminality, think Don Corlene, Guristas are more bleeding edge crime, identity theft or cyber hacking.
If there is any dislike between them I'd say it was down more to style, ie Guristas disapprove of outright violence and angels dislike the upstarts.
So yes they can cooperate but there will always be institutional dislike
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I can't see any logical reason why Angels would co-operate with Guristas. It doesn't seem very beneficial to the Cartel as it is the most organised criminal organisation in EVE already and handles things by itself pretty well.
Well, not in general. I think it might be possible they would in very limited circumstances, and on a very limited level. For example, if they had a common enemy or problem, and neither could call in support quickly for whatever reason.
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I think Angels are very much old school mafia style criminality, think Don Corlene, Guristas are more bleeding edge crime, identity theft or cyber hacking.
If there is any dislike between them I'd say it was down more to style, ie Guristas disapprove of outright violence and angels dislike the upstarts.
So yes they can cooperate but there will always be institutional dislike
I've heard that before, but I've always wondered on sourcing for that? TBL p. 145 seems to indicate that hacking and ID theft and such definitely have a huge place in the Cartel and their reputation, for example, and p. 175 (and other places) points up that the Cartel has possibly more interest in their technology and research than their people.
Actually, on page 115, one character says of the Cartel, "they have the most extensive information network and classified data repositories in the cluster". Granted, that's a character's PoV and not that of an omniscient narrator, but it's a useful datapoint insofar as everyone else in the book seems to agree, more or less.
Whereas the characters go out of their way to characterize the Guristas as succeeding through recklessness and so forth. I tend to see them as a bit more traditional in their "thuggery" (said with love!), though they definitely have their scientific and technical advances (as the TBL makes clear when
[spoiler]
we find out that they've got incredibly advanced terraforming technology (p. 255), to the point that they went ahead with terraforming an entire barren planet rather than the sections they actually need.
[/spoiler]
So I suspect that they all have their technical areas of expertise, but that the Angels definitely tend towards information and research in particular.
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Well, not in general. I think it might be possible they would in very limited circumstances, and on a very limited level. For example, if they had a common enemy or problem, and neither could call in support quickly for whatever reason.
Well yeah, I suppose in those kind of circumstances it's extremely possible. It'd have to be pretty epic though <.<
Edit: I fail at quoting.
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Apropos of nothing in particular, from The Burning Life p. 235:
"The Guristas are more inclined, or at least less averse, to danger than the heavily organized Cartel dares to be."
...The Guristas had a deserved reputation for cackling madness and operated on instinct as much as they did on cold planning.
Also, unsurprisingly, p. 249 indicates that the Guristas have spies or other information sources within the Cartel.
From p. 250-251:
"You know what I've noticed about the Guristas? They're your best friends. I mean it. They will go above and beyond to help you with whatever it is you need to do... It's the results that matter to the Guristas, not whatever motivation or rules form the framework... Guristas will happily resolve their problems without getting caught up in protocol. And they're not going to let some rogue voice frighten their people into thinking maybe their faction's signature recklessness might sometimes be a bad idea. The Guristas make wonderful offers, but they demand a lot in return. Probably more than even they themselves will ever realize."
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Guristas_%28NPC_corporation%29
The Guristas are led by former members of the Caldari Navy and they are the best organized and most disciplined pirate cartel operating in the outer regions.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Angel_Cartel
The Angels are one of the oldest and most powerful of the criminal organization found in the world of EVE...they established themselves in Utopia system a century ago...today DED consider them the most dangerous criminal faction around...their area of [is]operation much larger than for most other crime syndicates...Today, The Angel Cartel is the largest and best organized of the space-based criminal factions
Apparently both hold the title of "the" best organized. Also the Gurista's are both the most disciplined and the most reckless?
My thoughts are that the Angel's strength is that they are really freaking huge, they have been around so long they have had time to place agents within every other faction and they have Jovian weapons technology.
So the Guristas are better at fleet warfare while the Angel's have more money, friends and shiny toys.
Perhaps that's why they are both listed as "the" best? The Angels are the best organized criminal cartel in that they do things like run brothels, illegal casinos, black market hubs, racketeering rings and do corporate espionage much more efficiently and on a much larger scale than the Gurista. The Gurista are the best pirate cartel in that they are better at the actual act of attacking things in space.
Maybe the Angels are a criminal cartel that dabbles in piracy when convenient and the Gurstas are pirates that dabble in organized crime when convenient?
That might also explain how the Gurista can be both the most disciplined and the most reckless. They might have a greater "military bearing", tight fleet movements, good com discipline, and be less likely to break and route when things start to turn ugly but also more likely to pick fights were the numbers don't favor them etc.
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What the standings say, of course, is pretty well known. They don't like eachother.
Given that both a huge, sprawling organizations, though, I wonder if it might not be more complex. Overall they are competitors ofc, but they are also (I think) pragmatic. There might be times temporary alliances (perhaps on some local - planetary, system-wide, a few city blocks - level) might make a lot of sense.
What do ya'll think?
Well from an RP point of view this has already happened. Veto and Ghost Festival worked together for a good time. Veto being loyal Guristas affiliate and PRETA having firm roots in the Cartel.
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Here is a bit on this topic from the Angel epic arc, the Ride to the Rescue mission:
The Angel Cartel and Guristas have a lot in common on the surface. Both seem to be the classical thugs, engaging in all the brutish activities attributed to base criminals. But while the two do have some overlapping interests, their methods and core desires are different.
The Angel Cartel is closer to a criminal mafia, dedicated to pushing drugs, running protection rackets, taking out assassination contracts, and involving themselves in all manner of nefarious research projects. The Guristas, however, are opportunistic pirates. They prowl the space lanes and hit any target that looks half-valuable or vulnerable. They loot and plunder what they can, ransom off the valuable survivors, and then hit the bars to celebrate.
The Cartel sees the Guristas as chaotic malcontents, disrupting trade, causing economic difficulties, and generally making it more difficult for them to ply their illicit trades. The Guristas see the Cartel as dishonorable brutes, skulking in the darkness and using trickery and deception to dull the minds and sensibilities of their clients.
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So, broadly, there seems to be different philosophies of being a criminal at work?
It does make some sense, and fit the feeling I have for both groups. Do you think the Angels - being more corporate, and business-oriented - might remind many Guristas of what they were trying to leave behind in the State?
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I can't speak for the Guristas as, despite my reading, I've not spent much time contemplating them (beyond their cool-ass name and logo).
But I'd think that the Cartel sees them as just thugs, lacking sophistication and intelligence.
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Now what about organization. Who is more tightly organized? Is it like, you might have ogranized crime on a planet that is connected to the Angels, or is everyone in a strict chain of command?
What about the Guristas?
My sense of it is that they might be sprawling enough that smaller local organizations stay discrete while giving them a cut. Sometimes local bosses that are directly affiliated might operate semi-independently?
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/me needs to go back and re-read the relevant chapters in TBL...
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Well, this analogy is not gonna make much sense unless you are familiar with Vampire the masquerade, but to me Angel Cartel reminds me of Camarilla, and Guristas remind me of Sabbat. Both a very rigidly structured in their core and have clear set of hierarchy but with Cammy the reach of the Inner Circle (Dominations) can felt even on street level where as with Sabbat the cells are more local, loose and individually autonomous even if there is a pecking order in the sect.
Angel Cartel seems like the type to set up shop and dominate from the shadows, again like Camarilla and Guristas are the roaming and opportunistic types to wreak havoc for fun and profit where they are able, much like the Sabbat. Then again like with Guristas, there are ranks, officers and duties to the core of the faction.
Anyway this is how I see the things, I will try to come up with less VtM influenced explanation for my pov in the future. D:
PS. I've not read TBL yet.
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Anyway this is how I see the things, I will try to come up with less VtM influenced explanation for my pov in the future. D:
V:tM ftw, to be honest ;)
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That largely fits some of what I've thought, Vince. Though I suspect the Guristas might be (in a general way) more capable of discipline on a small (even individual) scale when it comes to doing business. Guristas get a lot of folks who leave the military, after all.
Institutional 'recklessness' or personal recklessness - and if it is the second, would it mean being willing to do dangerous things in pursuit of an objective, or sloppiness, or something else? Some combination of the aforementioned?
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Fun fact: Despite the popular image we get, pirates weren't all that often just a bunch of random drunks who stumbled onto a ship and started firing on trade vessels. They were the results of massive cutbacks to naval fleets after a war was over because, win or lose, you don't really need all of them anymore. The pirates were, in fact, ex sailors often trained by some of the most powerful empires of the day who realized that the ability to cut off an enemy's retreat, hit their mast, and board the ship didn't help much in farming. Sure, they did kidnap a few people and force them to work on their crews, but most pirate crews started out as former naval officers.
Because of this I'd say that as pirates Guristas are probably the most traditional, at least in that they have a military background. The Angel Cartel seems to be more like a mafia that extended past a solar system. Both will as a result be more organized on some ways and less in others comparison to each other. I imagine that the Angels probably maintain much more communication between their different operations, while a naval admiral probably wouldn't feel at all out of place leading a Guristas fleet.
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That largely fits some of what I've thought, Vince. Though I suspect the Guristas might be (in a general way) more capable of discipline on a small (even individual) scale when it comes to doing business. Guristas get a lot of folks who leave the military, after all.
Institutional 'recklessness' or personal recklessness - and if it is the second, would it mean being willing to do dangerous things in pursuit of an objective, or sloppiness, or something else? Some combination of the aforementioned?
Yeah, a bit more organized than Sabbat on a raw street level. Maybe like the revised edition Black Hand or the sorts.
More on the personal recklessness. Pretty much "Terror, for fun and profit" kinda recklessness. Striking when opportunity rises it's head, and sometimes taking a shot at glory with less than perfect planning just because there was an opportunity to do so. This kind of attitude shows in some of the NPC interactions in the Guri arc.
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From the Angel Epic Arc Mission "Gang War"
[spoiler]Gang War
The Angel Cartel and Guristas have a lot in common on the surface. Both seem to be the classical thugs, engaging in all the brutish activities attributed to base criminals. But while the two do have some overlapping interests, their methods and core desires are different.
The Angel Cartel is closer to a criminal mafia, dedicated to pushing drugs, running protection rackets, taking out assassination contracts, and involving themselves in all manner of nefarious research projects. The Guristas, however, are opportunistic pirates. They prowl the space lanes and hit any target that looks half-valuable or vulnerable. They loot and plunder what they can, ransom off the valuable survivors, and then hit the bars to celebrate.
The Cartel sees the Guristas as chaotic malcontents, disrupting trade, causing economic difficulties, and generally making it more difficult for them to ply their illicit trades. The Guristas see the Cartel as dishonorable brutes, skulking in the darkness and using trickery and deception to dull the minds and sensibilities of their clients.[/spoiler]
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Sweet, thanks for that quote Vik.
Personally when Yishal first coined the idea of "Hey, maybe we should work with Veto IC" I kinda scratched my head and pointed at the ingame standings. After going through all background information back then available, it did seem workable, and I am happy prime fiction seems to support this, though it depends from what angle you look at it. Different methods, same goal seems a good synopsis. Purists might disapprove of either working with the other, and in the end they are as right as progressives who see opportunity.
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Purist reporting for duty.
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Well, my personal view is that the Guristas/Angels conflict is a business issue, not an idealogical issue. They might have different philosophies, but ultimately I think any largely successful pirate group in Eve must be pretty ruthlessly practical, right?
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Purist reporting for duty.
Does this mean no more cyber? ;(
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Does that mean Myrhial's free?
Oh, wait. Wrong thread.
But yeah, as I told Milo yesterday: when somebody creates a project that exists somewhere in that Angel / Serpentis / Syndicate nexus, they get my interest.
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Purist reporting for duty.
Does this mean no more cyber? ;(
No, it means our cyber will get even more intense. :bear: